Build Over Buy

[Revolutionnow33]

We are all guilty. Well, maybe a few of you had the rare influence of a gunsmith or a avid gun builder but most of us did it. What am I talking about? Buying a rifle that only contains 2-3 parts that we want. Give me a S&W upper and lower and the rest is custom.. Js... What do you think?

[jagular]

I think it starts with intended purpose of the rifle and knowing if you are the type of person who will modify the weapon or leave it as is. I've seen both types of people on this forum. Personally, I bought a preassembled rifle that I dumped another $800 into (the majority of that cost be an aim point PRO). Then I bought a sport that I left stock besides the hand guard and butt stock. Now I'm building another one from the ground up. For me, it was a progression of knowledge and comfortability as I used the platform more, learned what I liked and disliked about various components or setups and roles that they would serve. I think for someone just getting into AR, and if they uncertain if they will like it or what role it will play, a preassembled AR from most well known manufacturers would be fine. Those who have more restraint will get what they want out of it, sell it and upgrade to a higher end AR or custom one. If you're like me, you'll just buy more and try to justify its intended role

[Rastoff]

Yeah, it depends. The vast majority of shooters will be satisfied with an off-the-shelf gun. They will add a few things, but the bones are fine. Of course the AR is the Harley of the gun world. No two are alike and most owners change something. Usually that something does little to the basic operation.

Also, building a rifle is fun, but not for everyone. It requires special tools and some special skills. With the AR those skills are not particularly difficult to acquire. Still, there are tools necessary and the cost of those often out weighs any savings you'll get by building your own.

Further, it's not hard to find the specific configuration you're interested in. Most of the time an AR can be found on the shelf that is close enough to what we really want. Then just swap one thing and you have what you wanted.

Then there are guys like me. I'll never be done building my AR. There will always be another gadget to add or change. Meh, that's part of the reason I have them.

[Revolutionnow33]

I agree that the amount of time you spend using it and what it is being used for determines how far you will go in customizing. I personally am a fan of insurance so gadgets and upgrades are essentials to me. I have a Sport that we added a red dot and a vert grip/light to. Aside from that a 60 round Surefire Mag is all we have invested because it serves its purpose as is. On the other hand I have recently priced all of the parts necessary to build my girlfriends next AR with and it will end up around $1,000. Needless to say it will be a much different weapon.

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Consider buying a complete upper, build the lower.

Go to BCM. They have nearly 200 complete upper configurations.
If you'd prefer inexpensive, go to Palmetto and find over 100 complete upper configurations.
Just those two there's enough complete upper choices to fit most anyone. And there are a ton more.... from Yankee Hill to Spikes and a zillion others.

The lower is more builder-specific in my opinion. The type of trigger (most important), stock, grip, end plate, buffer, trigger guard... you'll likely never find grouped together just how you want.

[JaPes]

Originally Posted by Revolutionnow33

We are all guilty. Well, maybe a few of you had the rare influence of a gunsmith or a avid gun builder but most of us did it. What am I talking about? Buying a rifle that only contains 2-3 parts that we want. Give me a S&W upper and lower and the rest is custom.. Js... What do you think?

I don't have to think. I did it.



That's an older picture. It's easier to list the OEM parts left than list out the modifications.

• Upper Receiver
• Lower Receiver
• Barrel
• Buffer Tube
• Castle Nut
• Lower pins, detents, small springs.

As you can see in my signature, that rifle started out as a 15-Sport.

Build one? Did that too.

[Arik]

I prefer buy. There is nothing more that I need in a basic Colt 6920 or DD and the very few things that I might want I can just buy separate. On the other hand if I build and there's a problem then I have to figure out what it is, if it was me or a defective part....no....hate that with a passion. I would rather eat glass then trouble shoot a gun

[JaPes]

Buy or build?

IMO the first rifle should be a factory complete rifle. The firearms enthusiast is ready to hit the range with the warm fuzzies that a factory warranty provides. 2nd rifle? Build it.

[dullh]

Here's what I did when I built one back in December:

- PSA 16" A4 Upper - $229 (with PSA AR BCG, I had a charging handle lying around)

- Spikes Stripped Lower NIB - $89

- Spikes Standard Receiver Lower Parts Kit w/Battle Trigger - $109

- Spikes Buffer Tube Kit - $69

- Magpul MOE Stock, Handguard and MIAD Grip - $139 for all

Total = $665

Try buying anything above a DPMS for that...and you have a rifle put together YOUR way...with quality parts.

I agree with Phil - buy a complete upper. If you don't have the know-how then don't mess with the upper. Assembling a lower on the other hand - super easy.

[dullh]

Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil

Go to BCM. They have nearly 200 complete upper configurations.

Both my NFA (11.5") uppers came from them. They are AWESOME! Here's one of them with 10" KeyMod FF handguard:



Lower is the Spikes (Zombie) described in post above - muzzle device is SiCo Trifecta Brake, awaiting parole of my Saker 556.

With scope and NFA tax I have right at one-grand in this one - for comparison, the box-stock 6920LE I saw at Wal-Mart today was $967...

The PSA upper mentioned above was picked up on a whim when I went to the Columbia, SC store before Christmas...a great product too, but BCM is absolutely the stuff, man!

[gunny4053]

Buy...I buy because I'm good with what comes off the shelf, knowing I can modify it to be whatever I want it to be. I'm also comforted by the fact I have a warranty to cover my butt if needed. If it turns out to be less than adequate for my needs, there's always someone who doesn't mind its little quirks and will take it off my hands.

Build...I have a desire to build one, one day, if for no other reason than to say "I did that". Will it be better than what I bought, maybe, maybe not. Will it be protected by a nice factory warranty, nope. But if it fires only one round and spends the rest of its life as a wall hanger, I can still say I did that at least once.

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Starting off with a standard configuration AR is just fine. But beware of what can happen...

You start thinking that you want a new handguard. Then comes the idea that if you're going to change out the handguard might as well get a free float. Well that's going to require removing the front sight so might as well get a low profile gas block and folding sights.

Time for a sling... and you really like the new Magpul MS4, but there's no QD on your stock or single point end plate. No problem, you've wanted the Magpul CTR stock anyway, and Magpul sells a cool end plate QD. You've been thinking about a Magpul grip too, so might as well buy the stock, end plate and grip all at one time to save on shipping. And ya know that springy thing makes so much noise through the stock, and you've heard that a chrome silicone spring is real quiet. As long as you're doing that, might as well get a Spikes buffer......... and before you know it you're rearranging the closet to make room for an AR parts box.

And about that trigger....

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil

Starting off with a standard configuration AR is just fine. But beware of what can happen...

Unless you're really experienced with the AR style gun, this will happen no matter what you do.

You build because you want to save a few dollars. Then you discover you don't like...

[bhayles]

Basic Sport, plus:

Magpul handguard
BAD lever
Ares Husky sling
Maglite MagTac light w/Magpul mount
Primary Arms 2.5X CQB reticle compact scope

Yet to add:

Geissele 2 stage trigger
Magpul offset sights
Magpul grip w/storage compartment

I have three, 2 like this and one the same without an optic. To me, guns are tools, not range toys, and this gives me what I want...

...the perfect budget home defense AR w/hunting capabilities.

Edit: Oh yeah...I forgot...20 30 round Magpul P-mags, always fully loaded.

[MrG5122]

Here's my last OTC AR. It started as a Windham SRC. As was said earlier, it's easier to list the original parts than the add-ons.

Upper/Lower
Buffer tube/spring/buffer
BCG
Ejection port cover
Barrel nut
Lower bits

I've built three since then and am working on a 458 Socom. All for less money than I have in this one.

It's a fever!

[MrG5122]

This is part of what's left over after 'building' two OTC rifles and not knowing what one really 'needs'

[ChattanoogaPhil]

You newbies take a real hard look at MrG's part box.

A LaRue or Wilson Combat really isn't all that much more expensive.

[one eye joe]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

Yeah, it depends. The vast majority of shooters will be satisfied with an off-the-shelf gun. They will add a few things, but the bones are fine. Of course the AR is the Harley of the gun world. No two are alike and most owners change something. Usually that something does little to the basic operation.

Also, building a rifle is fun, but not for everyone. It requires special tools and some special skills. With the AR those skills are not particularly difficult to acquire. Still, there are tools necessary and the cost of those often out weighs any savings you'll get by building your own.

Further, it's not hard to find the specific configuration you're interested in. Most of the time an AR can be found on the shelf that is close enough to what we really want. Then just swap one thing and you have what you wanted.

Then there are guys like me. I'll never be done building my AR. There will always be another gadget to add or change. Meh, that's part of the reason I have them.

THE AR IS THE 1911 OF THE RIFLE WORLD. LIKE A 1911, YOU CAN BUY AN AR OFF THE SHELF, WITH MOST OF WHAT YOU LOOKING FOR IN A WEAPON. IMHO, THAT IS THE WAY TO GO. YOU WILL NEVER REALIZE ON A RESALE, WHAT YOU HAVE SPENT ON A CUSTOM AR BUILD, BECAUSE BY THE TIME YOU SELL IT, THE FEATURES ThAT YOU ADDED WILL BE COMMONPLACE ON THE NEW ARs. THAT WAS MY EXPERIENCE WITH MY BUSHMASTER AR AND THE 1911s THAT I TOOK FROM PLAIN JANE GOLD CUPS TO TRICKED OUT SHOOTING MACHINES………

[saltair]

I was used to shooting the old M16A1...yea been a few years ago but when I bought my Sport and got back into shooting the AR, I wanted to know what I really needed for defense, reliability and light weight. This is when I decided to add useful furniture to fit my needs and to keep it as simple as possible (KISS). Below are my additions.

Wilson Combat trigger-to me a great trigger is a must
Red Dot with good BUIS got Magpul Pro- my scope didn't suit my needs
Better Buffer- less recoil and better spent casing placement
MFT G27 grip- storage for batteries and allen wrenchs & others
FAB Defense Magwell grip- I find I use it more than I expected
Irene Adaptive Sling- nice after you get used to it

Looking at the pictures above put many items on my wish list along with the lights, lasers, and Picitinny add-ons you guys have some handsome weapons.

My advice for the beginner is to buy basically what you need to be proficient in the use of YOUR AR15. In time and experience through practice you will learn what you really need for improvement...add-ons are always an option. Enjoy the Experience

[speedyquad]

i just built my very first AR15. other than my 15-22, i had not even held an AR before I started. this is basically a range gun for me. Most of the parts are from Anderson Rifles and Strike Industries.

The Anderson parts are:
Lower
Upper
Buffer
Lower parts
Upper
Forward Assist
Chrome Lined barrel- 1/7 twist
bcg

The Strike Industries parts are
flash hider
low profile gas block
gas tube
megafins handguard
rails for the handguard
ultimate dust cover
trigger guard
charging handle

I added mission first tactical's battlelink minimalist stock.

all that was less than $800 where if i were to buy a similar rifle from them would be near $1200 without the upgraded parts.

for optics, i'm putting cheap on it until i figure out exactly what i want. i currently have flip up sights that were about $25 and a bushnell trs-32 red dot that was $89 because i am not sure if i want to go with a traditional magnified optics or a quick acquisition style.

one thing i will say, once you build one of these rifles a.k.a. legos for adults, you will want to build another. i enjoyed the assembly and learning how everything fits and functions.

i am currently awaiting arrival of a second lower(bought from buds guns, scheduled delivery is monday) for my wife to build one. she is going to choose the parts that she wants and assemble it herself. once it's done i will probably build a third and set my current rifle up for long range and make the new one a cqb rifle.

legos for adults addicting.

my build with my 15-22

[bhayles]

Originally Posted by speedyquad

The Anderson parts are:
Lower
Upper
Buffer
Lower parts
Upper
Forward Assist
Chrome Lined barrel- 1/7 twist
bcg

The Strike Industries parts are
flash hider
low profile gas block
gas tube
megafins handguard
rails for the handguard
ultimate dust cover
trigger guard
charging handle

No trigger?...

[speedyquad]

in the lower parts kit...lol

the trigger feels good, but i see every one saying a geissele trigger is the best so i may buy one for those for mine and move the anderson trigger to the wife's build...she won't know the difference...lol

[bhayles]

Well...I meant a DIFFERENT, upgraded type trigger. I've got a Geissele 2 stage ordered for one of my ARs, though the stock trigger in my Sports feel fairly OK.

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Originally Posted by saltair

.



Wilson Combat trigger-to me a great trigger is a must

I think so. I've got a WC TTU 4lb.
A great trigger does more to improve performance of the shooter than anything else on the rifle, IMO. Curiously, it's often completely overlooked.








Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[one eye joe]

I JUST LOVE THOSE EVIL BLACK RIFLES, WHETHER STORE BOUGHT OR HOME BUILT. THEY ARE ALL BEAUTIFUL TO ME……….

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by bhayles

Well...I meant a DIFFERENT, upgraded type trigger.

And there it is. Even though he built a rifle from the ground up, there are still things to be added/modified.

Hey speedyquad,
Before you plunk down serious $$$ on a new trigger, shoot me a PM.

[bhayles]

Here's the one I'm getting. Its basically the SSA without the fancy laser engraving of the Geissele name on it:
Geissele 2 Stage (G2S) Trigger

Geissele has it for $165.00, but I've seen it as low as $130.00 on eBay, NIB.

Edit: Just checked eBay...the $130 price is gonem but here it is for $139.49 plus $2.79 S+H:
http://www.slickguns.com/product/gei...ge-trigger-165

[JaPes]

Beware the E-bay counterfeits.

[MrG5122]

Originally Posted by JaPes

Beware the E-bay counterfeits.

+1 Order straight from Geissele. There are no bargains in quality triggers.

[saltair]

On the discussion of triggers my first trigger upgrade was a 3-gun trigger from a reputable manufacturer. I did not shoot 3-gun and I didn't know much about triggers. This trigger would quite often give me what I call a "bump-fire" or "double-tap", pull trigger once and fires twice. I was told by the manufacturer Never to use this trigger for target shooting or hunting. This trigger is for fast fire only. I was allowed to trade the 3-gun for a single stage TTU trigger at about 4-4.5 lbs and have been happy since. I have never owned a 2-stage trigger and I'm sure I would enjoy it just as much and maybe more.

I am sure most on here already know this but I thought it might help some newbies on the AR upgrades.

[speedyquad]

thanks for that saltair, that was something i was not aware of. of course, i would research first.

i've learned that you never stop upgrading things. i have quads that had almost as much in aftermarket parts as they new price of the machine itself. knowing that is one reason that i went with build first. i took less flak from the wife having $800 come out of the checkbook over a two or three month period than seeing a $1200 deduction followed by another $400 or so in upgrades.

On the plus side, she understands and will be doing the same thing over the next few months, lol.

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Y

Originally Posted by saltair

On the discussion of triggers my first trigger upgrade was a 3-gun trigger from a reputable manufacturer. I did not shoot 3-gun and I didn't know much about triggers. This trigger would quite often give me what I call a "bump-fire" or "double-tap", pull trigger once and fires twice. I was told by the manufacturer Never to use this trigger for target shooting or hunting. This trigger is for fast fire only. I was allowed to trade the 3-gun for a single stage TTU trigger at about 4-4.5 lbs and have been happy since. I have never owned a 2-stage trigger and I'm sure I would enjoy it just as much and maybe more.

I am sure most on here already know this but I thought it might help some newbies on the AR upgrades.

There are a lot of triggers out there. Some feel good at first but soon turn to junk. Here's a review of the Wilson, but to the point is comments on buying what appear to be bargain triggers.

Wilson Combat Tactical Trigger Unit (10,000 trips of the trigger)

When it comes to stuff like triggers and optics, I don't believe there many true bargain Just As Good As. Usually get what you pay for no matter how much the pocket book wants to belive otherwise.

[saltair]

Thanks, Chat'Phil for the nice read.
As I posted above I didn't know much about triggers and I went with the Single Stage because I wanted something that would last the life of the rifle and could be depended on in a defensive or combat situation. At the time I felt a 2-stage trigger had more working parts and to ME, more parts mean more chances for failure.

The Wilson Combat TR-TTU is the trigger I have and I am in no way affiliated with Wilson Combat.

[MasterTech1960]

Originally Posted by JaPes

Buy or build?

IMO the first rifle should be a factory complete rifle. The firearms enthusiast is ready to hit the range with the warm fuzzies that a factory warranty provides. 2nd rifle? Build it.

This is exactly what I did. Got the M&P 15 , my first AR , learned the ins and outs of the platform. Then bought the M&P 10. Love both guns. How ever , by my nature , I like to know as much as I can about how things work. I found that by building an AR you get to understand and appreciate the weapon system. Built an AR-15 H-bar this past Christmas, so Santa would have some thing to leave under my tree.

It becomes a sickness , you need more. I some how now have a new lower waiting to become my next project.

[Revolutionnow33]

Im sitting here on Sunday morning, about 5am getting a kick out of this thread. Very good responses folks. The warranty issue is non existant for me. If a part was to fail on my AR It would likely be my fault and shouldnt be too much to replace. Building an AR with your favorite furniture set, stainless barrel, Lucid optics, thats just like putting diamond tuck in the old Chevy to me. Every guy likes a pretty girl on his arm!

[Revolutionnow33]

Optics Option- Lucid HD7 Red Dot... Est. price- $200.....
Check out the reviews. Worth every penny plus some!

[Revolutionnow33]

Ammo Watch- ZQI 5.56x45mm (ss109)
This ammo is Sub MOA and is light armor piercing. It is sold at Walmart for under .30 per round. I have shot about 1000 rounds and am very happy. (Grouping within 2 inches at 100 yards with iron sights is good for me). This is 62 grain ammo, Boxer Primed, and I have had 0 feed or extraction issues as of yet. I also have not heard a single bad word about them aside from "Turkey"... Try em out...

[JaPes]

This is for when you've progressed into the "Forget stalking Wal-Mart for Ammo" phase. The 1st time I pushed the submit order button on a case, I wondered what the heck did I just do. $300+ on ammo!?! I got over it quick. Internet = No tax (yet), bulk savings, and I'm not stalking ammo at Wal-Mart hoping to find it.



https://www.wideners.com/itemdetail....dir=18|830|845

• M193 Spec
• Brass case with crimped primer
• FMJBT with cannelure
• Non corrosive
• Boxer primed

For range practice, plinking, just about any darn activity I do with the exception of OCD anal-retentive longer range accuracy endeavors, this ammo is 100%. I've gone through 3,500 rounds through my AR's and Tavor. I have 1,500 rounds on hand. I shoot up a case & have a case on reserve. I have a nice bucket of certified once fired brass that needs to be processed.

The next phase after this is: "I wonder if I should start reloading?".

[JaPes]

Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil

You newbies take a real hard look at MrG's part box.

A LaRue or Wilson Combat really isn't all that much more expensive.

That parts box isn't that bad.

[saltair]

And as I understand the bullet is not made of steel. My LGS in door range refuses steel ammo.

[saltair]

Originally Posted by Revolutionnow33

Optics Option- Lucid HD7 Red Dot... Est. price- $200.....
Check out the reviews. Worth every penny plus some!

Do you use the Kill Flash? What do you think of it?

[MasterTech1960]

Originally Posted by JaPes

I've gone through 3,500 rounds through my AR's and Tavor. I have 1,500 rounds on hand. I shoot up a case & have a case on reserve. I have a nice bucket of certified once fired brass that needs to be processed.
The next phase after this is: "I wonder if I should start reloading?".

Well , being the nice guy that I am , I would hate to hear you tripped over that full bucket and hurt your self. Sooo a prepaid shipping box will be forthcoming. You don't have to thank me, your safety is all that matters.

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Originally Posted by saltair

Do you use the Kill Flash? What do you think of it?

Kill flash is so the BG don't see a reflection (glint) off the front glass while you're trying to keep your position unknown. I've got a couple of them around here somewhere... I guess they work cuz I don't know where they are.

[bhayles]

Originally Posted by JaPes

The next phase after this is: "I wonder if I should start reloading?".

Get a Dillon Progressive, John. The Big Blue Machine is a lot like the AR...there are a crapload of accessories for it so you can accessorize to your hearts content.

It would be perfect for you...

[saltair]

Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil

Kill flash is so the BG don't see a reflection (glint) off the front glass while you're trying to keep your position unknown. I've got a couple of them around here somewhere... I guess they work cuz I don't know where they are.

I realize it cuts down the reflection but it also slightly eliminates the field of view. The KF would be good for turkey or critter hunting and in a Sniper type situation but, to me, it is a nuisance. Just wanted others opinions.

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Originally Posted by saltair

I realize it cuts down the reflection but it also slightly eliminates the field of view. The KF would be good for turkey or critter hunting and in a Sniper type situation but, to me, it is a nuisance. Just wanted others opinions.

Doesn't affect field of view. It's just a bit like looking through a window screen.

The secondary benefit to the shooter is performing like a sunshade.

Not many zombies around here to hide my position from, and I'm typically shooting in shade. I generally agree with your assessment... not of much use.

Here's one next to my PA MicroDot. As you can see, if you are just a few degrees off it looks solid and not transparent.



Installed

[/URL]

Close-up look.



Shooters position pretty much disappears but darkens a bit like looking through a screen.

[JaPes]

Originally Posted by MasterTech1960

Well , being the nice guy that I am , I would hate to hear you tripped over that full bucket and hurt your self. Sooo a prepaid shipping box will be forthcoming. You don't have to thank me, your safety is all that matters.

I am touched by your concern for my safety.

I've already started my own brass recycling program.

Originally Posted by bhayles

Get a Dillon Progressive, John. The Big Blue Machine is a lot like the AR...there are a crapload of accessories for it so you can accessorize to your hearts content.

It would be perfect for you...

When I finally make space for it, I plan to do just that. Until then...

[bhayles]

Originally Posted by JaPes

When I finally make space for it, I plan to do just that.

Space? You have space. You have a bedroom, don't you? Not a spare bedroom...just a bedroom. Ya gotta get your priorities straight, ya know...

[JeffDeMello]

Originally Posted by JaPes

This is for when you've progressed into the "Forget stalking Wal-Mart for Ammo" phase. The 1st time I pushed the submit order button on a case, I wondered what the heck did I just do. $300+ on ammo!?! I got over it quick. Internet = No tax (yet), bulk savings, and I'm not stalking ammo at Wal-Mart hoping to find it.



https://www.wideners.com/itemdetail....dir=18|830|845

• M193 Spec
• Brass case with crimped primer
• FMJBT with cannelure
• Non corrosive
• Boxer primed

For range practice, plinking, just about any darn activity I do with the exception of OCD anal-retentive longer range accuracy endeavors, this ammo is 100%. I've gone through 3,500 rounds through my AR's and Tavor. I have 1,500 rounds on hand. I shoot up a case & have a case on reserve. I have a nice bucket of certified once fired brass that needs to be processed.

The next phase after this is: "I wonder if I should start reloading?".

SGAmmo sells Wolf gold for 279$$ +16$ shipping

[JaPes]

Originally Posted by JeffDeMello

SGAmmo sells Wolf gold for 279$$ +16$ shipping

Thank you sir!