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Old 02-12-2015, 11:23 PM
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I am considering the purchase of a UTG Bug Buster 3-9x32 scope for my Sport. I want to leave the rear sight installed and folded down. The UTG scope comes with medium rise (15mm)QD rings. Does anyone know if these rings will allow the scope to clear the rear sight (in the folded position)? If not, will the UTG high rise (20mm) allow the scope to clear the rear sight? Thanks for your help.
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Old 02-14-2015, 12:22 AM
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Let me ask this question another way. I did some calculations, and it appears that I need scope rings that will give me at least 25mm between the top of the rail and the bottom of the scope tube in order to allow the rear of the scope (eye piece?) to clear the rear sight in the folded position. Can anyone tell me where to buy 1" rings that will give me 25 mm of rise? The max rise I can find is 20 mm. Thanks!
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Old 02-14-2015, 03:04 PM
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Iron sights are typically left on a rifle when using battery-powered optics; that way, if the battery-powered optic fails, the sights are still there and can still be used.

Scopes, on the other hand, are not battery powered and do not fail. That's why most people who mount scopes on an AR will have no rear sight (unless the scope is mounted on a non-removable (A2) carrying handle). Additionally, scopes don't sit as low as optics do (by design they can't)...

This is also why most bolt action rifles come from the factory with no iron sights...

Point is, there is no need to keep the rear sight if you're using a scope. The mounts required to clear the rear sight, even in the folded position, will place the scope ridiculously high in relation to the bore. Bye-bye cheek weld...

The point of scope mounts is to get the scope as low as possible but high enough so the scope body does not touch the rifle.

Your A2 front sight will be invisible in a 3x or higher power scope, for the most part; but under certain light conditions you will see the shadow of that A2 front sight in your scope...bothersome...
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Last edited by dullh; 02-14-2015 at 03:08 PM.
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Old 02-14-2015, 03:31 PM
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Thanks, dullh. I appreciate your insight. This is my first AR and I have a lot to learn.
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Old 02-14-2015, 04:04 PM
cyphertext cyphertext is offline
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I disagree with a lot that dullh stated...

First, back up sights are for in case the primary sighting system fails... be that battery powered, magnified, or whatever. Also, scopes can be battery powered, and scopes can and do break. They can fail to hold zero, fog up, lense can crack, reticle wire can break, etc.

The reason you do not see a lot of back up sights on rifles with a scope is because you can not co-witness your back up sights with a magnified optic. If a non-magnified red dot fails, you can still look through it and use the back up sights. If a magnified scope fails, the magnification will still make it where you can not see through it and properly align your front and rear sight. If you want back up sights with a magnified optic, you need a quick detach type mount... otherwise, forget about back up sights.

To make it easy, I would recommend that you get a mount made specifically for putting a scope on an AR-15, like the Burris PEPR or similar mount from Nikon. These will be the proper height for adding a scope to the AR.
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Old 02-14-2015, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dullh View Post
Scopes, on the other hand, are not battery powered and do not fail.
Man, I wish this were true. Alas, scopes fail. They can be dropped, stepped on or just wear out. Especially with super cheap scopes like a UTG.

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Originally Posted by cyphertext View Post
If you want back up sights with a magnified optic, you need a quick detach type mount... otherwise, forget about back up sights.
Well, not really. I mean, if you want to get to your back up sights quickly, then yes, you'll need a quick detach mount. However, if you just want the back up sights to be already zeroed, but aren't in a hurry to deploy them, then no, you don't need quick detach mounts.

For example, you're out on a hunt and you drop the gun and crack the objective lens. Take out your wrench, remove broken scope, flip up back up sights, continue with hunt. In this scenario you can continue to hunt because the back up sights are already zeroed, but you're not in a particular hurry to get to them.

In a self-defense situation, you'll want quick detach mounts because seconds count.


Just remember, you must zero the back up iron sights before you mount the scope. I should think the reasoning is obvious.


Now, is there anyway I can talk you out of the UTG scope? Chances are it will just put you $85 further from a scope you really want.
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Old 02-14-2015, 06:40 PM
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The whole point is:

1) I have never seen a scoped rifle with iron sights, except a .22 with see-thru rings.

2) Putting see-thru rings on a rifle puts the scope way above the bore which defeats cheek weld and on hard-kicking rifles, torques the scope tube.

3) What am I to do if I drop my Remington 700 in .300 WSM and break my scope? I have no iron sights to fall back to...oooooh the humanity!

You want the scope to be low in relation to the bore axis for many of those reasons. Cramming stuff under the scope makes the rig awkward and inefficient.

Here's an example of an AR I have with a 3x32 Nikon scope on it...note the ABSENCE of iron sights...



Another:



And...another:



Even if you were to put flip-up sights under your scope, how are you going to flip them up without taking the scope off?

Your "special-ops seconds count tactical advantage" just evaporated...

Check...and...mate...
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Old 02-14-2015, 07:34 PM
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It took exactly .3 seconds to find these:



So yeah, it's not uncommon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dullh View Post
Even if you were to put flip-up sights under your scope, how are you going to flip them up without taking the scope off?
Um, maybe you missed the whole part about quick disconnect mounts? Yes, you would have to take the scope off. It's not perfect, but can be done.

The argument for the scoped hunting rifle is moot. Sure most don't have back up sights. If their scope breaks they are indeed done. However, if back up sights are there, they can be used. Certainly better than nothing.


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Check...and...mate...
This is like calling checkmate after only two moves. If I were playing Kasparov he could say that and be right. However, this is not a game of chess. This is a discussion about optics. There is no right or wrong here; only different views. Just because you don't have back up sights doesn't mean they don't have value to others.


Personally, if I were going to have a magnified optic on an AR, and I wanted back up sights, I'd do it this way:


Or this way:
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Old 02-14-2015, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
Well, not really. I mean, if you want to get to your back up sights quickly, then yes, you'll need a quick detach mount. However, if you just want the back up sights to be already zeroed, but aren't in a hurry to deploy them, then no, you don't need quick detach mounts.

For example, you're out on a hunt and you drop the gun and crack the objective lens. Take out your wrench, remove broken scope, flip up back up sights, continue with hunt. In this scenario you can continue to hunt because the back up sights are already zeroed, but you're not in a particular hurry to get to them.

In a self-defense situation, you'll want quick detach mounts because seconds count.
Ok, you got me on "need"... but I typically don't carry a wrench with me in the field. If I drop my rifle on a hunt, I would go back to my truck where the tool bag is... next to the spare rifle!
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Old 02-14-2015, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dullh View Post
The whole point is:

1) I have never seen a scoped rifle with iron sights, except a .22 with see-thru rings.
You haven't seen many rifles then. Lots of guys have iron sights on scoped rifles. When I worked at Academy and mounted scopes, if the sight didn't interfere with the scope, we left the sights on the rifle. Maybe your .300 WSM didn't come with sights, but the .30-06 Remington 700 does.

Quote:
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2) Putting see-thru rings on a rifle puts the scope way above the bore which defeats cheek weld and on hard-kicking rifles, torques the scope tube.
Nobody stated see-thru rings...

Quote:
Originally Posted by dullh View Post
3) What am I to do if I drop my Remington 700 in .300 WSM and break my scope? I have no iron sights to fall back to...oooooh the humanity!
You walk back to the truck and get your spare rifle, just like I do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dullh View Post
You want the scope to be low in relation to the bore axis for many of those reasons. Cramming stuff under the scope makes the rig awkward and inefficient.

Here's an example of an AR I have with a 3x32 Nikon scope on it...note the ABSENCE of iron sights...
The rear sights on my AR would fit just fine under those scopes with those mounts. That mount puts the center of your scope real close to the same height as the center of a rear sight on an AR.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dullh View Post
Even if you were to put flip-up sights under your scope, how are you going to flip them up without taking the scope off?

Your "special-ops seconds count tactical advantage" just evaporated...

Check...and...mate...
As Rastoff pointed out, I said that if you are not going to use a quick disconnect type of mount, it really serves no purpose to have them on there.

I agree with you for the most part about not having back up sights on a rifle with magnified optics, just not how you arrived at your conclusion. In some limited scenarios, they could be advantageous. But, if the OP wants them on his rifle, it can be done.
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Old 02-14-2015, 08:45 PM
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To the OP: set your rifle up however you want. One size does not fit all.

To those who want to waste time arguing with me: Your way, like mine, is A way, not THE way.

Have fun.

Oh and by the way...the pics I posted are MY rifles, not random photos I pulled off the internet in ".3 seconds"...
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Last edited by dullh; 02-14-2015 at 09:04 PM.
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Old 02-14-2015, 09:10 PM
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I would have posted a pic of my scoped AR, but it doesn't have back up sights mounted on it. You just said you had never seen one so, I found some. I thought you were having trouble finding a pic of a rifle with a magnified scope and back up sights. Sorry if it came off wrong, I was just trying to help.
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Old 02-15-2015, 10:24 AM
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Thank you for all of your replies and different points of view. Even when people disagree, we can all learn something. For example, in this thread I got a picture of exactly how a scope could be mounted, and still retain my rear sight in the folded position. That was my original question. I also learned why it may not be necessary to retain the rear sight at all. I also was shown a way to have both a scope and functional iron sights in a way I had never considered. Now, I will take your information and opinions and decide what I want to do. I probably won't even get it right the first time, but at least you guys provide a wealth of information to get me pointed in the right direction, and help if I need to change course. Thanks!
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