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  #1  
Old 06-09-2015, 12:33 AM
Shootingfun Shootingfun is offline
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Default Bullet tumble

Lately when I shoot my M&P 15 sport rifle, after the first 5-10 shots when I check my paper target I see what looks like the bullet hits the target sideways, I get like 2-3 out of like 10 rounds fired. Like it tumbled, not sure if this is the ammo I am shooting the Wolf brass case ammo, also shoot some Perfecta and ZQI 55.6, I am just wondering what could be causing this. I will stop after the rifle heats up a bit, then it will do it again like once every 30+ rounds. I will even out of the 30+ rounds only get like 2-3 bullet shaped impacts on the paper.

If anyone can shed some light on this, thanks for the info and replies. I have shot the hell out of it with a lot of different kinds of ammo. I cannot even remember all the ammo companies that I have put through it.
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Old 06-09-2015, 01:32 AM
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Sounds like the target, not the bullet. Put some thick cardboard up and try again. It would take a pretty shot out barrel to keyhole that much.
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Old 06-09-2015, 07:18 AM
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I don't see any keyholing at all, just some rifles leaned up against shirts. If you don't get the hint it would be useful if you posted pics of your targets. Because of "grain" direction many cheap grades of paper will tear on oblong strips instead of round holes when shot with any type of bullet other than a wad cutter. I rather doubt you are shooting wad cutters in either your AK or AR. BTW, if you don't know what a wad cutter bullet is do a Google search for the term.

I'll also note that much of the cheaper ammo out there for the AR features steel jacketed bullets and you can shoot a barrel out with as few as 5000 rounds with this type of bullet. Start loading your own ammo and you can cut your costs to about 24 cents per round and get better accuracy while loading with 55 grain COPPER jacketed bullets.
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Old 06-09-2015, 07:39 AM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
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Amen on the "cheap ammo". What you save on ammo, you may well spend on a barrel.

You don't mention cleaning. I'd suggest wetting your bore down well with Hoppes #9 and letting it sit overnight. Then cleaning it until you don't see nasty stuff on the patch. The overnight soak will remove copper and at least loosen up other stuff. 10-20 passes with a new bronze bore brush wouldn't hurt either. Gunk in the bore-especially after shooting some of the stuff you mention-can cause issues.

Last edited by WR Moore; 06-09-2015 at 07:41 AM.
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Old 06-09-2015, 10:31 AM
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I'll also note that much of the cheaper ammo out there for the AR features steel jacketed bullets and you can shoot a barrel out with as few as 5000 rounds with this type of bullet.
Not applicable to any of the ammo mentioned by the OP.
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Old 06-09-2015, 06:44 PM
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My understanding is that in this caliber and especially with 55g FMJ bullets, tumbling is not unusual and is actually desirable from the standpoint of wound creation. The bullet shaped holes may mean that the round was in the process of rotating from light part forward (tip) to heavy part forward (base).
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Old 06-09-2015, 08:05 PM
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My understanding is that in this caliber and especially with 55g FMJ bullets, tumbling is not unusual and is actually desirable from the standpoint of wound creation. The bullet shaped holes may mean that the round was in the process of rotating from light part forward (tip) to heavy part forward (base).
A common occurrence with with Spitzer type bullets is that they tumble AFTER hitting something like a body. That does enhance wound effects. However, bullets that tumble in flight will NOT produce accuracy that would be considered useful. Basically, if a bullet tumbles in flight you'll see "groups" ranging from a foot or more at just 25 yards.
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Old 06-10-2015, 02:30 AM
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Well thanks for the replies, I did that Hoppes #9 soak and used the next day M-Pro 7 gun cleaner ran a new bore brush down it and the patched it, took like 10 patches to come out clean, I guess the bore snakes are not really made for barrel cleaning. I shot it today about 200 rounds and didn't see the marks.
Sorry about no pics before, here they are what I was seeing the last week at the range. Nothing today though, all shot clean, might have had a dirty bore or bad ammo, I was shooting Wolf gold today again.
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Old 06-10-2015, 02:12 PM
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Well thanks for the replies, I did that Hoppes #9 soak and used the next day M-Pro 7 gun cleaner ran a new bore brush down it and the patched it, took like 10 patches to come out clean, I guess the bore snakes are not really made for barrel cleaning. I shot it today about 200 rounds and didn't see the marks.
Sorry about no pics before, here they are what I was seeing the last week at the range. Nothing today though, all shot clean, might have had a dirty bore or bad ammo, I was shooting Wolf gold today again.
Wow, i've never seen bullets tumble that badly no matter how dirty the bore was. The bullets should not tumble because they hit a paper target or even the homosil backing board. In 40 years of shooting AR's i've never seen that happen. When hitting something with more substance yes especially if you have an AR 15 with a 1:12 twist. With todays AR 15's with twists ranging between 1:9 and 1:7 tumbling is more difficult to achieve. Those holes indicate to me the bullet was thumbing before it hot the target.
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Old 06-10-2015, 09:15 PM
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How far was the target in those pics?
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Old 06-10-2015, 09:55 PM
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I've actually had this happen to one of my targets before with Hornady TAP 55gr at 25 yards. This was out of a MOE version with the 1/8 5R barrel.

I'm not certain if it was key-holing, but it made me rethink using that load for my home defense mags.

Just thought I would throw out this as a data point on this topic, since it apparently can happen with higher end ammo as well.
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Old 06-10-2015, 11:01 PM
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A tip on barrel cleaning. That is to purchase a Tipton Carbon Fiber Cleaning rod for you specific caliber. Note, I've seen these as small as .17 caliber. They are NOT cheap by any stretch of imagination but they won't bow or bind, they won't damage the surface of the lands, and they feature a ball bearing handle so the brush won't loosen as you work on the barrel. As a result they help a lot in speeding up the cleaning process.

Note, standard lengths are 12, 26, 36, 40, and 44 inches, for an AR I would recommend the 24 inch version. Right now they are on sale at Midway for 26.99 and that is a heck of a discount from the 39.99 regular price.

Typical advice for brushing a barrel to completely remove all fouling is one stroke of the brush for each round fired. Personally, I've found using copper fouling remover in combination with CFE223 allows me to get a barrel absolutely spotless with 1 stroke for 4 rounds fired. I will also say from experience that CFE223 meters about as well as water would and that Copper Fouling Eliminator aspect is definitely more that simple marketing hype. I've also worked up a load for my Match AR that will shoot sub 0.30 inch cloverleafs at 100 yards, so with the right bullet the accuracy potential is superb.
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Old 06-11-2015, 11:18 PM
Shootingfun Shootingfun is offline
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How far was the target in those pics?
The target was 50+ yards away
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Old 06-11-2015, 11:22 PM
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Wow, i've never seen bullets tumble that badly no matter how dirty the bore was. The bullets should not tumble because they hit a paper target or even the homosil backing board. In 40 years of shooting AR's i've never seen that happen. When hitting something with more substance yes especially if you have an AR 15 with a 1:12 twist. With todays AR 15's with twists ranging between 1:9 and 1:7 tumbling is more difficult to achieve. Those holes indicate to me the bullet was thumbing before it hot the target.
It was only like 3-5 round scattered through 200+ rounds of shooting so maybe the ammo.
I shot it the other day after the Hoppes #9 soak and it didn't do it I also had a gunsmith center my Jerry Miculek Muzzle brake, when I shot it with the pics it was at a 1'o'clock cant. Not sure the brake had anything to do with with.

Last edited by Shootingfun; 06-11-2015 at 11:24 PM.
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Old 06-11-2015, 11:28 PM
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Hey thanks for the replies, When I look down my barrel I can still see all my rifling and I took it to a local gun smith and he scoped it and said it look ed fine. It is a 1:9 twist not the R5 rifling though, it just had the melonite barrel.
I also don't remember shooting is long enough to get the barrel hot enough to damage it. S&W said I could send it back but it would need to be in all the original furniture and flash hider. I have all that but putting it all back on and shipping in it out wow hope they would pay for shipping they never said they would though.
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Old 06-12-2015, 10:50 AM
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I also had a gunsmith center my Jerry Miculek Muzzle brake, when I shot it with the pics it was at a 1'o'clock cant. Not sure the brake had anything to do with with.
It would explain the tumbling if some of the bullets brushed the brake on their way to the target. There must be minimal bullet clearance for a brake to work.

I'd shoot it before sending it back to the mothership now that the brake is centered.
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Old 06-12-2015, 12:23 PM
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It would explain the tumbling if some of the bullets brushed the brake on their way to the target. There must be minimal bullet clearance for a brake to work.

I'd shoot it before sending it back to the mothership now that the brake is centered.
I agree with ^^^^. That could explain the bullet tumbling before hitting the target. The only thing that puzzles me why only an occasional tumble. You would think if it was the brake causing the tumbling it would do it all the time.
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Old 06-12-2015, 07:49 PM
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That was my thoughts on the brake issue causing it. I got in touch with S&W and they told me again just shoot it some more with the same ammo and see if it happens again, if it does they want me to send it in. I have soaked the hell out of the barrel in Hoppes #9 for the last few days. Well today I decided to clean my bolt better, take off the extractor and clean under it better and when I got my bolt apart, 2 of the gas rings just fell apart they where black and brittle.
That explained too me why it was cycling kinda weird the last time out but when I cleaned it after that range trip didn't notice them being bad. I did notice that my bolt was really loose in there. So now those are replaced.

Last edited by Shootingfun; 06-12-2015 at 07:51 PM.
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Old 06-14-2015, 06:48 PM
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Default Key holing

Well, I soaked the barrel with Hoppes #9 over night, Cleaned the hell out of the rifle and took my Sport out today.

First 20 round mag was a mixture of Tulammo brass max and Perfecta, both .223 55 gr.
In Target 1 I shot 10 rounds at it hitting the target 8 out of 10 had 2 fliers. Out of all of the first 10 shots at 50+ yards shooting at quarter inch foam board stapled to railroad tie backstop. I got 5 Key holing shots out of 10, the other 10 shots where at other targets, not sure if any of those Key holed on me.
In target 2, I shot 20 rounds, had 2 fliers and got 5 more key holing shots. So out of 30 rounds fired I got 10 key hole hits on my target. In mag 2 I was shooting mainly Perfecta and Federal Eagle, both .223 55 fmj
I am at my wits end on this, this rifle has never done this before. I guess I migt have too send it back in to Smith&Wesson
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Old 06-14-2015, 08:09 PM
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Just out of curiosity before you send it back to the Mothership, pull the brake and shoot it.
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Old 06-14-2015, 08:48 PM
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I was just going to suggest the same thing as MichiganScott, put the original flash hider on the rifle and see how it shoots then. I also have to question the use of a muzzle brake on a 223, it's not a heavy recoiling caliber. Muzzle brakes by design require a minimal clearance to the bullet. Because of this a manufacturing defect can lead to the bullet striking the muzzle brake and cause all sorts of flaky results downrange.

BTW, I also have to point out that your accuracy at 50 yards is not at all acceptable. I have a hunch that all of your bullets are tumbling and the round holes you are seeing are due to plain luck.
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Old 06-14-2015, 10:20 PM
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I wish I could pull the brake I don't have a vice or a barrel block to get that brake off of there
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Old 06-14-2015, 11:15 PM
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Where do you live?

Look closely at the brake and see if there is any copper on it.
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Old 06-15-2015, 12:20 AM
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Where do you live?

Look closely at the brake and see if there is any copper on it.
I live in Indiana

I did look at it one time and did see some copper flakes on it. I got it off though, my neighbor had a vice and barrel block and used his. I am going to shoot 2-20 round mags both with different ammo types.
1. will have M855 green tip FMJ 62 gr
2. Will have Perfecta .223 or if I am out of that, PCM .223 FMJ 55 gr
I will post the results after if I can get the weather to hold long enough tomorrow to shoot
Thanks for your replies and info/
Want to add that I reinstalled it again that night shot it at my buddy's range then took it to the gunsmith to have it removed by him instead. My buddy suggested resetting the brake and shooting it then remove it an shot it again.

Last edited by Shootingfun; 06-29-2015 at 11:37 PM.
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Old 06-15-2015, 12:22 AM
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Now I know, it is safe to shoot it without the brake correct
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Old 06-15-2015, 12:27 AM
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Amen on the "cheap ammo". What you save on ammo, you may well spend on a barrel.

You don't mention cleaning. I'd suggest wetting your bore down well with Hoppes #9 and letting it sit overnight. Then cleaning it until you don't see nasty stuff on the patch. The overnight soak will remove copper and at least loosen up other stuff. 10-20 passes with a new bronze bore brush wouldn't hurt either. Gunk in the bore-especially after shooting some of the stuff you mention-can cause issues.
I was told by a guy on my Facebook AR.com page that you are to NEVER clean the barrel with any chemical. You are to just run a boresnake down it about every 1,000 rounds. He also said that using brass brushes in your rifle's barrel will damage the barrel and lessen the lifespan of the barrel.
I myself have never known a small little brass brush to harm a harden steel barrel, I forgot said also it can mess up the chamber and bore of the rifle, by making the bullet not set correctly in the chamber.
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Old 06-15-2015, 12:35 AM
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I was told by a guy on my Facebook AR.com page that you are to NEVER clean the barrel with any chemical. You are to just run a boresnake down it about every 1,000 rounds. He also said that using brass brushes in your rifle's barrel will damage the barrel and lessen the lifespan of the barrel.
I myself have never known a small little brass brush to harm a harden steel barrel, I forgot said also it can mess up the chamber and bore of the rifle, by making the bullet not set correctly in the chamber.
That's nuts.
I'd be really curious to see if you have any issues with keyholing using good ammo.
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Old 06-15-2015, 12:39 AM
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I was told by a guy on my Facebook AR.com page that you are to NEVER clean the barrel with any chemical. You are to just run a boresnake down it about every 1,000 rounds. He also said that using brass brushes in your rifle's barrel will damage the barrel and lessen the lifespan of the barrel.
I myself have never known a small little brass brush to harm a harden steel barrel, I forgot said also it can mess up the chamber and bore of the rifle, by making the bullet not set correctly in the chamber.
He's an idiot. Steel is much harder than brass........
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Old 06-15-2015, 12:54 AM
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I'll also note that much of the cheaper ammo out there for the AR features steel jacketed bullets and you can shoot a barrel out with as few as 5000 rounds with this type of bullet.
Is that even a thing in 5.56/.223? steel jackets? I know that a lot of the cheaper ammo uses steel casings, and some ammo classified as "light armor piercing" could have a steel core, but those are entirely different anyway. I don't know all things, but I've never seen steel jacket on anything but com-block calibers.
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Old 06-15-2015, 12:55 AM
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I was told by a guy on my Facebook AR.com page that you are to NEVER clean the barrel with any chemical. You are to just run a boresnake down it about every 1,000 rounds. He also said that using brass brushes in your rifle's barrel will damage the barrel and lessen the lifespan of the barrel.
I myself have never known a small little brass brush to harm a harden steel barrel, I forgot said also it can mess up the chamber and bore of the rifle, by making the bullet not set correctly in the chamber.
Pure garbage, that fellow on facebook knows nothing.
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Old 06-15-2015, 04:58 AM
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Is that even a thing in 5.56/.223? steel jackets? I know that a lot of the cheaper ammo uses steel casings, and some ammo classified as "light armor piercing" could have a steel core, but those are entirely different anyway. I don't know all things, but I've never seen steel jacket on anything but com-block calibers.
On the cheaper, steel cased ammo, a bi-metal jacket is used. It is not a pure copper jacket and is magnetic.
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Old 06-15-2015, 07:08 AM
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On the cheaper, steel cased ammo, a bi-metal jacket is used. It is not a pure copper jacket and is magnetic.
One of the Gun Rags, maybe Guns & Ammo, did a test comparing the baseline Tula to the American Eagle 55 grain range ammo. Note, the bullets on the baseline (cheapest) feature a copper plated steel jackets and are strongly attracted to a magnet. They shot two identical AR's, one dedicated to each ammunition. At the 5000 round mark the Barrel using Tula ammunition was completely shot out and could be considered a smoothbore because there was no rifling left anywhere in the barrel. On the other rifle they stopped at 10,000 round and found the throat was totally shot out but there was some rifling remaining in the barrel.

My takeaway on this was twofold.

First, don't shoot steel jacketed ammunition even if it claimed to have a bimetal jacket. Because a thin layer of copper will not protect the barrel from the increased wear of a steel jacket.

Second, barrels don't last forever, even when used with copper jacketed bullets. This is especially the case with ammunition that feature muzzle velocities exceeding 3000 fps. So, it's best to plan on replacing your barrel at some point and factor that into the cost of shooting.
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Old 06-15-2015, 09:15 AM
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Interesting thread. I think your barrel is approaching being shot out from what I read here. Sound like you have not kept it clean during it's life. It sounds like the high round count and not keeping it clean may be contributing to a lot of copper fouling which starts the keyhole shots showing up not far into a shooting section.

Next new barrel, purchase a good coated or stainless steel one piece rod and a really good bore guide. Purchase one of the top of the line bore solvents and some top of the line copper remover. (don't use sweets, it has to much ammonia, hard to get all the ammonia out of your bore). I love hoppe's 9 for the smell and cut my teeth with it, but face facts, its not a great bore cleaner. The chemists and shooter have developed far superior products and after all we are cleaning the bore, that the only purpose here.

Now, with your new barrel that you can make last a lot longer that the one you just shot out, Clean with a good bore cleaning and bronze brush every 50-100 rounds. Take the stuff to the range and if you are going to shoot 200-300 rounds, stop and clean the gun and let the barrel cool of and drink a glass of water or coke.

If you go back and shoot this barrel you have and it starts keyhole, clean it with the copper remover. If its got a lot of copper in the barrel, sorry, you now have a garden stake for the tomatoes. Go purchase a new barrel.

Buying a barrel for any centerfire rifle is an expendable like purchasing bullets, powder and brass. Just part of the expense of shooting. Properly treated and cleaned, a 223 should get 5,000- 8,000 rounds before the accuracy goes away. If you have fed your gun with steel jackets, only cleaned with one patch ever 1,000 rounds and never brushed it, then thats like running you car for 100,000 miles and never changing the oil and wondering why you need a new motor when everyone else is obtaining 250,000 miles with the same motor.

Good luck.

Last edited by LittleCooner; 06-15-2015 at 09:17 AM.
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Old 06-15-2015, 02:29 PM
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Default Key holing

I wasn't shooting the steel case Tulammo, I was shooting there brass max line of ammo. I got it cheap from a buddy, I have never shot steel out of my AR 15 M&P 15 sport rifle, now my buddy might have shot some out of it when we traded AR that day last fall, not sure.

Well I took off the muzzle brake had the gunsmith remove it this morning. Then I took 230 rounds of ammo with me Tulammo Brass Max .223 55 gr
PPU .223 55 gr
PMC .223 55 gr
ZQI 5.56 62 gr
Reminton .223 55 gr
Wolf gold .223 55 gr
Perfecta .223 55 gr

Shot these out of 4 20 round mags and 5 30 round mags. In the pic was the last 4 30 round mags shot form 25-30 feet no brake on the rifle. I think the all have been key holing.
So I just emailed S&W to see what can be done, I have only had this rifle since 03-14-2014. So I cannot believe that I have shot that much to damage the barrel that bad already.
I am not sure if the gunsmith I took it to to remove the old Flash hider and install the other one could have messed it up but he is really highly rated in are area.
So at this moment I think the barrel or something is fried, It just started to do this around march after the weather got better so I can shoot.
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File Type: jpg Keyhole 001.jpg (79.5 KB, 160 views)

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Old 06-15-2015, 03:00 PM
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Default Certain bullets......

I like what everybody has said so far and they are probably right, but you don't describe the ammo. One factor COULD be that the twist rate doesn't stabilize certain bullets well.
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Old 06-15-2015, 03:33 PM
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One factor COULD be that the twist rate doesn't stabilize certain bullets well.

He is shooting 55 and 62 grain bullets in a 1-9 twist bbl.
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Old 06-15-2015, 05:19 PM
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Well experienced gunsmith with a bore scope will find your problem. That could be the guys at Smith and Wesson if that's who you decided to send it to. Something is bad incorrect.
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Old 06-15-2015, 09:37 PM
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I agree, something is totally hosed in that barrel. For the bullet weights being used 1:9 rifling is nearly ideal, so it's not an issue with the twist. With keyholing that bad I would be inclined to suspect that there isn't any rifling at all for the last 6-8 inches. Something that only an examination with a bore scope would clarify.

As for the cause of this, that is kind of hard to say. There are just too many potential causes and too many unknowns. It's probably best to let S&W take a look at it and see if the warranty will cover it.
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Old 06-16-2015, 01:36 PM
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Well I have FedEx picking it up today, S&W paid of it all. I am not sure how long it will take, I found my receipt and the date on it was 03/14/2014 so I have only had the rifle for like 1 yr 3 months and I cannot believe the barrel got shot out, I did't even shoot it all winter, just set in the cabinet, I would take it out and make sure there was proper oil in the barrel so not rusting would happe, did that with all my firearms all winter.
I think my AR got jealous when I got my AK, I have been shooting my AK more than the AR lately anyway, if it wasn't for my wife wanting to shoot the AR I would have never knew about the bullet tumble. She bought some Perfecta and PMC ammo and went out shooting,she shoot like 120 rounds at 50 yards and I noticed 10 or more key hole then, at that time I just thought ammo issue.

Also thank you all that replied and for the great wealth of information. Love this forum when it comes to my M&P rifle, I also thought that the M&P sport had a lifetime warranty.

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Old 06-16-2015, 01:38 PM
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I agree with ^^^^. At this point you have done everything you could do to find the problem. Let S&W get it straightened out.
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Old 06-17-2015, 08:27 PM
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So does anyone know about the turn around time on me getting my rifle back. It got shipped out Tuesday 06/16/2015 at 2:45 pm Indiana time. I hope it doesn't take as long as my SD9 VE, it took over a month to get back to me. If anyone has a idea of what would be a good time to check on the status of my rifle let me know. Thanks for all that helped me on this issue. Well at least I still have my AK N-PAP Zastava, to shoot.
I really miss my Sport thought, the gun case looks bare without her.
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Old 06-18-2015, 11:34 AM
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So does anyone know about the turn around time on me getting my rifle back. It got shipped out Tuesday 06/16/2015 at 2:45 pm Indiana time. I hope it doesn't take as long as my SD9 VE, it took over a month to get back to me. If anyone has a idea of what would be a good time to check on the status of my rifle let me know. Thanks for all that helped me on this issue. Well at least I still have my AK N-PAP Zastava, to shoot.
I really miss my Sport thought, the gun case looks bare without her.
You can call them and ask but my brother got his back in just over 3 weeks after arrival at S&W. But it all depends on how busy they are.
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Old 06-18-2015, 11:25 PM
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Did you remove the muzzle break before you sent it in?
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Old 06-21-2015, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by LittleCooner View Post
Interesting thread. I think your barrel is approaching being shot out from what I read here. Sound like you have not kept it clean during it's life. It sounds like the high round count and not keeping it clean may be contributing to a lot of copper fouling which starts the keyhole shots showing up not far into a shooting section.

Next new barrel, purchase a good coated or stainless steel one piece rod and a really good bore guide. Purchase one of the top of the line bore solvents and some top of the line copper remover. (don't use sweets, it has to much ammonia, hard to get all the ammonia out of your bore). I love hoppe's 9 for the smell and cut my teeth with it, but face facts, its not a great bore cleaner. The chemists and shooter have developed far superior products and after all we are cleaning the bore, that the only purpose here.

Now, with your new barrel that you can make last a lot longer that the one you just shot out, Clean with a good bore cleaning and bronze brush every 50-100 rounds. Take the stuff to the range and if you are going to shoot 200-300 rounds, stop and clean the gun and let the barrel cool of and drink a glass of water or coke.

If you go back and shoot this barrel you have and it starts keyhole, clean it with the copper remover. If its got a lot of copper in the barrel, sorry, you now have a garden stake for the tomatoes. Go purchase a new barrel.

Buying a barrel for any centerfire rifle is an expendable like purchasing bullets, powder and brass. Just part of the expense of shooting. Properly treated and cleaned, a 223 should get 5,000- 8,000 rounds before the accuracy goes away. If you have fed your gun with steel jackets, only cleaned with one patch ever 1,000 rounds and never brushed it, then thats like running you car for 100,000 miles and never changing the oil and wondering why you need a new motor when everyone else is obtaining 250,000 miles with the same motor.

Good luck.
I have always cleaned my rifle after every range session, even if I only shot like a few mags through it. I mainly have shot PMC and Federal American Eagle ammo through it. I have never left any of my firearms dirty for more than maybe a day after the range trip or any shooting event. I have had that rifle for no more than 1 yr and 3 months and shot somewhere around 3,000-4,000 round through it and that should have shot out the barrel already.
Thanks for the reply and just wanted to clear up I always clean my investments.
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Old 06-21-2015, 07:49 PM
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Did you remove the muzzle break before you sent it in?
Yes I had the gunsmith who installed it remove it that morning to shoot it without to see if it might have been the brake. I sent it with the rifle along with the original flash hider that came on the barrel.
I also put back on the original furniture and charging handle, not sending it back with a $50 dollar BCM mod 3 charging handle, or my $70.00 dollar handguard either. Took off everything that I put on it. None of that would cause it to key hole like that. Just hope they at S&W do me right by this, the rifle is only 1 yr 3 moths into shooting and I thought about it and I was around 3,000-4,000 rounds in that rifle, with the ammo I was using that barrel should still be fine.
I have read about guys shooting Tulammo and wolf steel case ammo only in there's and got 10,000+ rounds with no issues. I was just shooting brass, most of the brass ammo I have shot out of that rifle has been PMC bronze and ZQI 62 grain 5.56 ammo. I think I was also figuring higher on the amount of round through it, I am really only at 2,500 rounds maybe through that rifle. The last 500 or so rounds being mostly ZQI and Perfecta ammo, all .223/5.56 55 gr and 62 gr ammo FMJ.

Last edited by Shootingfun; 06-22-2015 at 03:06 AM.
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Old 07-05-2015, 09:59 PM
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Got it back and so far shooting like a champ, I am keeping a detailed log this time of how many round fired and what ammo was shot that day. I really hope that this barrel last a lot longer than 2,000 rounds this time.
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Old 07-07-2015, 06:32 PM
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Got it back and so far shooting like a champ, I am keeping a detailed log this time of how many round fired and what ammo was shot that day. I really hope that this barrel last a lot longer than 2,000 rounds this time.
So, they did replace the barrel? Did they give you any further information ? Is the bore chromed or melonited? I keep reading different stuff on what they're currenly doing.
Anyway, glad they hooked you up and you're back in gear now !!
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Old 07-08-2015, 07:12 PM
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Not really sure what barrel the installed on it, still says 1:9 5.56 NATO on the barrel. I am not sure of the coating or how to tell what they used in this new barrel. Not sure what this means but the one of the papers that describes the parts replace says the barrel is B112 AR-15 BARREL 16" THRD QPQ. Well I believe it is the melonite coated barrel, I discovered that QPQ stands for Quench Polish Quench is a specialized type of nitrocarburizing case hardening that increases corrosion resistance. It is sometimes known by the brand name of Tufftride, Tenifer or Melonite.[1] Three steps are involved: nitrocarburize ("quench"), polish, and post-oxidize ("quench").[2]

This process is often used when two or more of the following properties are required in a workpiece:

wear resistance
corrosion resistance
lubricity
fatigue strength.

Last edited by Shootingfun; 07-08-2015 at 07:23 PM.
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Old 08-10-2015, 02:51 PM
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Well I for one am impressed with Smith and Wesson. They didn't have to replace that barrel for free. It is a wear item.

Good luck with the new barrel.

I get 1.5 in. groups with Wolf Gold out of my Sport.
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Old 08-17-2015, 03:37 AM
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Well even if it is a wear item, it shouldn't wear out in just 2,000 round when other rifles they make just like it have shot well over 10k and are still shooting fine. I could see if it had like 15,000+ rounds through it and I have had it for like 20 years and they wouldn't replace the barrel but with that low round count and only having owned it for just a bit over a year, it should have been replaced cause that shows it was a bad barrel to begin with. I am glad they did me well and will continue to purchase and stand by the Smith&Wesson name. They make good products and this just shows that they stand by what they make.
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