So there are several styles of red dot sights, and I'm not sure what criteria would lead you toward any particular option.

Open reflex sight


Tube style reflex sight


Acog-shaped red dots (no magnification)



These all work the same, red led lights up, and you see the reflection of it. Some come with different reticles, some come with red/green colors, etc.

But what would justify the extra size and weight of an acog shaped red dot (which ime has a narrower field of view as well) over any of the various micro sized red dots?

Absolutely nothing. A red dot who's main visual appeal is to mimic the silhouette of a Trijicon ACOG is to take advantage of an individual's lack of critical thinking skills in order to separate the individual from their hard earned $$$. Over the years, I learned the hard way (Phil and other long time sub-forum members can attest to it) that you can't cheat with tactical red dots and optics. I'm going to draw heat from lots of people.

If you're main purpose of use of a dot is for a fun gun, range gun, or any primary use other than for the defense of life, go for any red dot you want. Go with the chinese knock offs. Go with some of the low end Chinese made dots labeled with big-brand names. Go with some of the mid-range optics.

If you are mounting an optic onto a firearm who's purpose of use includes personal defense, go with red dots manufactured by the well known companies. Those companies product development and product improvement iterations are driven by real world military contract use and abuse.

• EoTech
• AimPoint
• Trijicon ACOG
• Rayethon Spectre series

EoTech and AimPoint offer a range of optics choices at various price points. I own a simple EoTech 512 A65 that is powered by common AA batteries. After sale, discount, and rebate it cost me around $330.

This is my only modern sporting rifle chambered for 5.56 x 45mm NATO. It's primary purpose of use is defense. It has an EoTech 512 and an EoTech 3x magnifier mounted to it.



When I owned a 15-Sport and it was my primary defensive long gun, the EoTech was mounted to the 15-Sport. When I transitioned to the IWI Tavor, I mounted the EoTech 512 to it. I only had to buy a quality optic from a well known company that has a known and proven track record for quality just one time.

__________________
-John

It all comes down to how deep your wallet is, what your particular tastes are and what is the intended use of your rifle/carbine that you are placing a red dot on.

If you are just an average casual shooter that just uses their rifle/carbine to plink with there are several good options from $80 to $250, such as the Bushnell TRS-25, Vortex red dots, and certain Primary Arms models. I have several Bushnell TRS-25 red dots that I paid less than $85 a piece for that have held up very well on 5.56, 7.62x39, 300 black out and .308 AR type rifles, as well as 5.56, 5.45 and 7.62x39 Saiga rifles. I have yet to kill my first Bushnell TRS-25.

I have killed a few of the open reflex sights like you have pictured, some in as few as five shots. Not all cheap optics are created equal. My opinion would be to avoid TruGlo, SightMark and similar brands for anything other than maybe .22LR (Even then, I would stick with irons if that was my only choice). Your mileage and life experience may differ.

However, if you are going into harms way, you would want to more seriously consider an offering from Aimpoint or Trijicon. Normally I would have included Eotech in this group, but there are some new issues that have come to light on them. ( I own several Eotechs, various models, and still like them but I dont trust them as much now.)

With respect to the Eotechs, I have had some battery connection problems on some 512's which have been remedied (by a simple rubber and spring insert available from Eotech) as well as one unit that would drain the two 123 batteries powering it, even if it was not turned on once in a six month time period (I no longer have this one). So if you go with an Eotech I would stick with either the AA battery models or the ones which use the single sideways mounted 123 battery. Mako offers a very competively priced model similar in looks to the Eotech which takes a AA battery but I have no experience with it.

Not really. A better way to say it is they all work similarly.

The Trijicon Advanced Combat Optical Group (ACOG) is a scope, not a red dot. All of them have some magnification. Some have a cross hair reticle, some have a horseshoe and a dot and some have a chevron.





There are two types of reflex sights; LED red dot and holographic weapon sight (HWS). The red dot variety comes in either an open design or an enclosed case. The open type, as you have pictured in the OP, is susceptible to dirt and damage to the LED because the LED and lens are open to the outside. The enclosed variety, like the Bushnell TRS-25 pictured in the OP, tend to be a little more resistant to the weather and harsh treatment due to the LED being enclosed in the case.

Both types work the same in how they represent the dot to your eye.

The HWS is another thing altogether. It uses a laser to "paint" a holographic screen on the lens which is then visible to your eye.


Don't be fooled. The EOTech HWS looks like an open design, but it's not. All the electronics are contained in a sealed case.

The great benefit of the HWS is its ability to use different reticles. An LED red dot can only display a dot. The HWS can use any design they like. Here are some advantages to the HWS reticle:


The great draw back to the HWS is battery life. A quality LED red dot, like the Aimpoint PRO, has a batter life of up to 4 years. The battery life of an HWS is 1 year or less depending on use. This can be a serious draw back if using it for home defense. The LED red dot can be left on where the HWS must be turned on when you need it.


So, as you can see, these can be very different optics. Each has its pros and cons. I like the added ability the EOTech reticle provides, but the battery life of an Aimpoint is more practical in my opinion. Of course, the ACOG needs no batteries which may make it the most practical. Of course magnification can be a draw back in extreme close quarters encounters.

Decisions, decisions...

There's a whole lot more to this, but I'll stop here for now. Whatever you do, take your time. Good research up front will save you thousands of dollars down the road.

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

Thanks for the time and effort put into that post.

But I'm already familiar with the workings of holographic sights and true acogs. I'm asking about the ones that DO work the same, the reflex ones with an led emitter being reflected, with no magnification, hence my specific wording.

Ah, sorry if I went overboard. In that case, sticking with just the LED type, here's my take on it.

The open reflex style offers a slightly better view. They have less material/case around the glass and thus offer slightly better view of the target. The biggest drawback is the open style may allow dirt to get in there and interfere with the operation. In my opinion, the best of these is the Trijicon RMR with dual illumination. No batteries necessary and super tough. It's open, but still very well protected.

The fully enclosed models do offer a little better protection, but at the cost of field of view. I have a Primary Arms Advanced Micro Dot. So far, it has held up really well. The zero hasn't moved and it's every bit as easy to see as sights costing 4 times as much. It has a 50,000 hour battery life at the middle setting - I translate this as, turn it on and replace the battery every two years or so.

I don't know of a single ACOG style optic that is just an LED reflex sight. There is absolutely no advantage to having the larger body. Again, in my opinion, a company that uses that style of body is just trying to mask their super cheapo sight by making it look like a quality optic, i.e. it's a marketing ploy and not a sight I'd buy.

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

Just this Fall i bought my very first Red Dot sight.
I opted for the above mentioned Eotech 512
I was not sure if i could get used to or like a red dot
after shooting exclusively "traditional" scopes my
entire life.
I was pleasantly surprised with the 512 i mounted on
my Rock River AR.
Although it has no magnification i can acquire targets
quickly, "unlike with iron sights". My eyes are not what
they used to be. haha
And once i got it fine dialed in I was hitting empty
Skoal cans pretty regularily at 100 yards from a bench with sandbags.
This is because of the small one MOA dot which i really
like. I also like the fact that it runs on the 2 AA batteries.
I will buy another when funds allow.
These sights are a great thing for someone like myself
with older eyes, (I am 55) and who does not want a
bunch of magnification.

Chuck

__________________
They hold no Quarter

I have a Lucid HD7 among the many sights I have. It has 10 manual brightness settings, an automatic brightness setting via sensor, 4 reticles, and while the field of view isn't as open as an open reflex, I can still comfortably shoot both eyes open with it.

But the different reticles, brightness, etc are all features available on smaller red dots. Maybe the larger objective aids in light transmission given the same ocular lens compared to a straight tube? When using the sight, you don't see all that bulk, just like how you don't see a scope's bell or even turrets.

JaPes nailed it. Style over substance.

As far as the "open style" LED reflex, I hate them. And I particularly hate my Burris FastFire II. From the cheapest to top end like the Trijicon RMR, every one I have used suffers the curved glass fish tank distortion effect off-center of glass and I hate it. That said, lots of people don't notice it.

"Tube style" I have the Primary Arms MicroDot (Burris TRS-25 about the same) for recreational use. For battle worthy I have the Aimpoint H1.

The only open style sight I would put on my rifle would be the EOTech but that's a different animal that the LED reflex.

I may have to downgrade my opinion of EoTech due to pending litigation. Not happy.

BREAKING: U.S. Government Sues L3 Com's (EOTech) For Fraud - The Firearm Blog

Aimpoint or Trijicon, here I come.

__________________
-John

In earlier models the EOTech was plagued with battery compartment corrosion issues. In fact, my next door neighbor's failed on him while we were at the range. I offered him an old BSA RD30 in a junk parts box that I said had never failed. He didn't see the humor.

Excerpts from the Complaint. --

Beginning around 2006, Defendants became aware that design defects in the sights caused them to fail in cold temperatures and in humid environments.

By 2006, Defendants knew that the sights failed to perform as represented in temperature extremes. Specifically, they learned that the sights experienced a condition referred to as “thermal drift,” meaning that the sight’s point of aim differed from its point of impact (or “failed to hold zero”) when subjected to hot or cold temperature.

At sub-zero temperatures, the distortion of the aiming dot affected the accuracy of the sights by more than 20 inches for every 100 yards.

By 2008, Defendants also knew that their sights failed to perform as represented in humid environments. Defendants knew that the sights leaked, allowing moisture to enter and causing a degradation of the reticle

in 2008 EOTech inspected a large shipment of returns from DoD and noticed damage caused by moisture in nearly every sight. In the years that followed, moisture-related complaints (typically dimming or disappearing reticles) became the number one reason for EOTech’s customer returns, and EOTech’s own testing repeatedly confirmed that the sights were not properly sealed and quickly degraded when exposed to moisture.

---------

When the price of EOTechs tank, maybe I'll get one as a range toy for my 15-22.
I think I'll stick with Aimpoint on my AR.

That's very sad to hear. I hope the complaint is exaggerated, but I don't think it is. I can see how the collimator or refracting screen could warp at extreme temperatures.

I liked my EOTech, but I'm not sorry I sold it.

Aimpoint makes a very high quality product, but it's not made in the US.

I guess that leaves me with Trijicon for a super durable combat optic. I don't have the issue Phil does when using my RMR. I currently have it on a pistol, but will probably move it to a rifle.

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

I had high hopes for the new Trijicon MRO, but the negative reviews in this thread were disappointing. Aimpoint Micro meet Trijicon MRO

My rifle's purpose of use is to defend my life should the need arise. I always advocate buying an optic from a well known manufacturer with a long business history and who's products stand up to hard abuse. Pending litigation by the government asserts that EoTech's don't meet military use.

"By 2006, Defendants knew that the sights failed to perform as represented in temperature extremes. Specifically, they learned that the sights experienced a condition referred to as “thermal drift,” meaning that the sight’s point of aim differed from its point of impact (or “failed to hold zero”) when subjected to hot or cold temperature.

At sub-zero temperatures, the distortion of the aiming dot affected the accuracy of the sights by more than 20 inches for every 100 yards.

By 2008, Defendants also knew that their sights failed to perform as represented in humid environments. Defendants knew that the sights leaked, allowing moisture to enter and causing a degradation of the reticle

in 2008 EOTech inspected a large shipment of returns from DoD and noticed damage caused by moisture in nearly every sight. In the years that followed, moisture-related complaints (typically dimming or disappearing reticles) became the number one reason for EOTech’s customer returns, and EOTech’s own testing repeatedly confirmed that the sights were not properly sealed and quickly degraded when exposed to moisture."

Where I live, I have hot humid summers and sub zero winters. EoTech is now downgraded to the "good for fun" category. I am now searching for a replacement: one of the proven Aimpoint designs or a Trijicon with magnification.

__________________
-John

Since I have the Lucid HD7, big and bulky as it is, I've only used the dot and circle reticle. Haven't bothered to learn the other fancy shapes, I'm sure it has to do with average man size at particular distance or something. Features I liked- dot/circle reticle, excellent auto brightness mode, 2x screw-in magnifier, and uses AAA battery.

Anyway, Primary Arms has the Lucid M7 on sale for $99, so I'm giving it a shot, same features as the HD7 in a lighter smaller package, with the dot/circle reticle I like. Using my preferred rechargeable Eneloops, I think I'll like it a lot. Can also use the screw in magnifier I already have from the HD7.

For folks wanting magnification, Lucid has a 4x acog looking thing which looks promising.

Palmetto State Armory has the Aimpoint Carbine Optic for $299 after using coupon code "ACO".

Picked up a Lucid M7 from Primary Arms.
Things I liked: AAA battery, auto-brightness sensor, circle/dot reticle.

Unfortunately, vertical parallax was HORRIBLE. The 'circle' reticle would also oval out anywhere past halfway up the sight window.
Maybe this is why circle/dot reticles in tube red dots don't seem to be common at all.
This was also the first red dot that gave me reticle blurring/ghosting/blooming/doubling issues. Not sure what makes it more sensitive to eyeball issues.

Anywho, I feel the sight just has design flaws that can't be remedied by warranty so I'll likely just return it and keep on shopping.
I really like a circle/dot reticle. I don't want an Eotech. I really like the Lucid HD7 which is why I gave the M7 a try, thinking it'd be identical to the HD7 in a smaller lighter package. Too bad that wasn't the case.

A quality that doesn't seem to get talked about much is light transmission. Some red dots have a crazy bluish/green tint to them, others are near clear. I find being near clear makes it less headache-inducing to shoot both eyes open.

I like my Aimpoint Pro because of the "optional" transparent scope covers.

The only time I've had to pop them up is in heavy snow or after the rifle gets mud covered.

Pal of mine had to keep cleaning his EOTech real often.

I treat my clear covers with with a plastic cleaner/wax, so they shed water as tho they have been treated with "Rain-X".

__________________
AKA: "Strange Tamer"

Good idea on the cleaner/wax. I must do it.

A C-More went on this one as it's reasonably priced, the dot size can be easily swapped, it is durable, the dot is distinct and crisp, and it even came in the right color. It fit this build perfectly, with an absolute cowitness with out any fuss.
20140306_111829 by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr

This one was used here as it was inexpensive and has a good reputation.
20151116_084317 by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr

This firearm got a fixed 1x scope as it has a wide field of view and works without batteries. It has illumination if needed.
20130913_135237 by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr




There are very few cheap optics that work well or last. The better items are more durable, hold zero more reliably, have better optical quality, longer battery life, and often better warranties. There are always exceptions.

I had a couple fancier Aimpoints but sold them off. If it absolutely has to work that's always a good choice. I foolishly sold them with the guns they were on.

Larry Vickers reports on his FB page that EoTech is issuing refunds on request via the customer support page on the EoTech website. I just put in my request for a refund of the full purchase price including tax. I hope that the reports are true and that EoTech actually cuts checks to the customers they defrauded. Even with a refund, this still stinks. I had a GG&G QD lever and flip up covers on mine. According to reports, the refunds are being issued on dots only, not magnifiers. Now I have an EoTech G3 magnifier backing up nothing.

In the meanwhile, I mounted a Primary Arms micro dot I had in my spare parts box. Oh the irony abounds given my posts in this thread.

__________________
-John

I guess there are now three types of AR optics.

Battle worthy
Range worthy
Refund worthy

Aimpoint Micro. LaRue LT660.

They all have a tint.

The Primary Arms AMD / Holosun is supposed to have very little percievable tint.
Rastoff has one. Maybe he'll chime in.

I'm going to use those three classifications from now on.

__________________
-John

Not to hijack but maybe expand ...but how durable are the C-more's..........don't see many around and none on the news from the middle
east.........seems like they would provide the least obstructive view......

years ago heard they were good for the range and 3 gun but not for "real life" use......

The Primary Arms Advanced Micro Dot does indeed seem to have less color than other optics of the same type. I don't know if that's good or bad.

The perceived color comes from the coatings. Those coatings are good in that they reduce glare/reflection and increase light transmission. Honestly, I've never really noticed it on optics that I was actively using.

I wish I could do a side by side comparison. Alas, I don't have a T-1 or H-1.

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

Lens coating is to make the glass reflect the dot, but in theory these things don't have to be so dark since red LEDs are a very specific wavelength. I have a microdot that's near clear even with its coatings and the dot visibility is just fine.

Yes, super cheap optics will only have a coating that reflects the dot. However, a quality optic will have multi-coated lenses. Those coatings offer many benefits.

Here's a good article on the subject: American Rifleman | Optical Coatings

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Freedom isn't free.

Doesn't apply to open reflex

My H1 has a green tint.

According to the tech guys at Aimpoint, the green is a coating used on the objective to reflect the LED back to the eye. They also use an anti-reflective coating on the ocular lens. There's a guy who works with Aimpoint that I see posting from time to time here. Maybe he can offer more specifics.

Years ago I had a open style reflex Sightmark that I gave away. When I used it in direct sunlight the reticle would disappear . The only open style reflex I have now is a Burris FFIII. The glass doesn't have much tint to it. Come to think of it, I always use it in the shade. Took it out in the sunlight just now and the dot didn't fade out. There's a science to all of it....

My son has one on his airsoft rifle. It provided "the look" he was going for. He still uses the flip up sights for aiming though.

The FFIII has 5 brightness settings:

1. Off
2. Auto
3. High
4. Medium
5. Low

The Auto setting works great and it adjusts brightness to one of the three based on ambient light. So far, mine has been a decent little sight. The biggest drawbacks are a relatively short battery life (compared to 50K hours from some), no auto off (forget and leave it on and you'll need a new battery tomorrow) and not as durable as sights like the Trijicon RMR. However, none of these are drawbacks for what 99.9% of us do with small optics like this. I use mine on a Ruger Mark III and it's a marvelous sight for that gun.

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

EoTech CS approved my request for full refund. I'll pack it up and send it out this Thursday.

__________________
-John

I have a C-more on my 617 and my 929 that I use for Steel Challenge Competions. The sights have lasted 3 years so far with no problems. I've only had to replace one battery.

They withstand a lot of abuse. Thousands of rounds of 9mm.

It's one of the easiest dots to pick up for a fast shot and the field of view leads go quick shots on the next targets.

For USPSA shooting a majority of top shooters are using C-Mores.

I've got one on a Mark III too. I don't like the glass distortion and the 1.07x magnification. It is a good size fit for the gun though. Haven't decided what I'm going to replace it with. Probably another PA MicroDot.

Good on you!

I'm surprised EOTech is doing such a broad refund offer. But I guess if you advertise a battle worthy optic and it ain't... and get the US military riled up... tsk tsk. Once the word gets out more... yikes!

I'd think there would be a large secondary or resale market emerge over this. May be an opportunity to get one cheap. I think my 15-22 would look good wearing a $100 EOTech.

Me too.

One thing that is unique about EOTech is the parent company, L3. L3 is an enormous company with their hands in more things than you can shake a stick at. I first had dealings with them as a communications company when they bought a company called Narda who made directional couplers. If this temperature issue cannot be worked out, and I believe it can, its demise would barely be a blip on L3's radar.

So, I give them a 50/50 chance of going forward. I see three possibilities. First they could just give up. They could see the error of their ways, realize that the HWS may not be as robust as they thought and stop making them.

Secondly, they could put in the R&D and fix the issue. They certainly have the capital at their disposal to do that, but rest assured, it is an expensive fix. The resulting optic will be great, but more expensive yet.

Finally, they could just keep going. They already have a super durable and popular optic. They could just alter the specs a little to indicate the reduced temperature range and keep selling them. Let's face it, the vast majority of us don't use our guns in the temperatures where this really affects the POI.

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Freedom isn't free.

Put my request in this afternoon and hoping to get a confirmation tomorrow.. Just dropped $381 on an Aimpoint PRO a few minutes ago with OpticsPlanet's sale that ends at midnight CST.. Been looking to swap them for the past few months and finally found my scapegoat and at good timing! Gone through 2 512s, first one died, second one would die and come back after you fiddle with the batteries, but it was past the 2 year point when the problem started.. For once the US Gov helps out

Not just cold temps...

in 2008 EOTech inspected a large shipment of returns from DoD and noticed damage caused by moisture in nearly every sight. In the years that followed, moisture-related complaints (typically dimming or disappearing reticles) became the number one reason for EOTech’s customer returns, and EOTech’s own testing repeatedly confirmed that the sights were not properly sealed and quickly degraded when exposed to moisture."

I suppose they could keep manufacturing the same thing, but I would't be surprised to see a "New and Improved" label of some kind. EOTech already had a less than stellar reputation for reliability. With this piled on, who in the civilian market wants to spend $500 for a sight that folks are returning?

Last weekend, I saw two people at the LGS who didn't care. They knew about the settlement. They read the articles about thermal drift and humidity issues. They had read on the forums about folks having issues with battery terminals corroding. I asked them if they knew. They said they did. Their reasoning for forking over $$$ for an EoTech was because "I'll never use my rifle in those extremes." I pointed out that winters here get pretty extreme. Summers get extreme. Spring through Summer we get humidity.

I was dumbfounded.

__________________
-John

Yeah, I forgot about the moisture issues. I guess they could fix that. They said the optics weren't sealed properly and that leads me to believe they know how to seal them properly. So, that seems like an easy fix.

It's amazing how people are swayed by what they believe rather than what they know.

I took a lady to the range so she could try a bunch of different guns. Out of about 6 guns, the one she liked the least was the Glock. Guess which one she bought? Yep, the Glock.

There's just no accounting.

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Freedom isn't free.

Sounds like "It looks cool" types.

Doesn't surprise me.

Most of the "Battle Rifles" on popular TV shows have "Eo-Techy" looking sights installed on them.

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AKA: "Strange Tamer"

I'm in the market now for an Aimpoint. Been communicating with L3 to refund both my Eotechs. It's a shame they can't maintain zero as I consider their reticle the best.

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Webfarmer

I'm interested to find out whether or not they approve your refund request.

Even though I liked it, the EoTech does not meet the manufacturer's claims. It's not fit for purpose. What absolutely chaffs me the wrong way is that the refunds only extend to the HWS, not the magnifier. Who in the heck buys an EoTech 3X magnifier without already owning an EoTech HWS? I'm now stuck with a magnifier.

__________________
-John

Why wouldn't it work with an Aimpoint?

The Eotech magnifier should work with an Aimpoint, Vortex or a variety of other red dots. It should have came with a removable spacer to allow lower 1/3 or full cowitness.

See, Phil and I always told you that if you need magnification, you need a scope... not some hodge podge of parts!

I've seen a few guys at the Club with magnifiers. When I see them again their rifles are absent the magnifier. Parts boxes are like magnets for magnifiers.

I am really ticked off about the EOTech problem. My XPS2 has been the best sight I have ever used. It has a perfect co-witness with my iron sights, so tonight it is staying outside where it is going down to the low 20's and I'll see if the dot is still sitting on the front post in the morning. I am considering sending it back. I have been looking at the Trijicon MRO and the reviews sound promising. Anyone have one on their AR?

Here is a link to the lawsuit:

http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-c...Inc.-et-al.pdf