My Daisy red Rider BB Gun had iron sights 60 some years a go a long with a Sheridan Blue Streak a few years later. I can shoot irons but all my rifles since then have scopes. I keep a few handguns with open sights most 1911 and like shooting them. When you young'en get old and have eye surgery in both eyes with the master eye getting a artificial lens in it and a cornea transplant you will see open sights can be tough to see.

__________________
USN Retired/VN VET
M&P X5

A person needs to learn irons first because it gives you a much better idea of how aiming works. Plus what happens if your scope gets knocked off zero or knocked off completely? And what happens if the only gun you can find in an emergency is one that only has iron sights? Yes those things can be learned at any time and doing it first doesn't matter. But it does matter that you're learning how to work a firearm in a way might save your life. Even if your scope happens to fall off and your gun doesn't even have irons if you know how irons work you can generally just aim down the barrel and get decent accuracy. Any shotgun shooter will tell you that you can do well with just a bead sight on the front of those guns. The truth is you don't even need that. You can tell where the bead should be if you're familiar with the system. It's like learning to crawl before you can walk. You never know when you might need to crawl.

I also firmly believe that someone that understands how irons work will be a better shooter in the long run. That person who learns with irons will have a better knowledge of how shooting and aiming works.

Again scopes can get knocked off zero fairly easily and sometimes they just loose zero because a screw backed out. Then what do you do? If you know about irons you can line up your shot from the top of your scope if needed. You won't be as accurate of course but you'll be a lot closer than someone who has never shot with irons.

I hear what you're saying, but sometimes we don't know what we don't know. And once we learn something it becomes useful. You're a scope guy so I'm sure you can relate to this.

Most guys are clueless about ballistics, clueless about how to use the ranging reticle on the scope they bought, and equally lost about MOA, distance and scope adjustment. The only thing they know is to shoot, adjust, shoot, adjust... repeat repeat... until they finally hit something... and god forbid don't touch anything on the scope after that. But what if they got a taste of what they don't know?

I'm at the Club on the 300yd range and get to talking with a guy there. He casually mentions that he's curious the size of steel plate he's shooting at. I recognize his Bushnell scope and ask if it's a mil-dot reticle. He says yes. I tell him to put his scope on 10x and look through the scope putting the center of one of the dots on the bottom edge of the plate and see how it measures. He does. He says it goes from the center of one dot to about the center of the next dot. I tell him he now knows the size of the plate. A mil = 3.6in at 100yds. Since we're at 300yds then the size of the plate is 3.6in x 3 = around 11in. All of a sudden his eyes light up like a caveman discovering fire. OH...!!! Then I tell him that the mil-dot is typically used in reverse, to use the known size of an object to see how far you're away from it. OH...!!! I saw the guy maybe 6 months later and could not get him to shut up. Apparently, once he got a taste for the concept of using a mil-dot reticle for more than a crosshair with fancy dots around it and how a little math makes it work, he then went on to connect all the dots, so to speak, about distance, ballistics-bullet drop, MOA and scope adjustment... and how everything works together. Of course all of this required learning basic math in school.

Cypher speaks of a well rounded shooter. I agree with him. But most folks' eyes glaze over when speaking of the above. Are they well rounded shooters?

I'm not so sure that terms such as "well rounded shooter" matter per se.

For example, the terms "liberal" or "conservative" have lost much of their meaning due to all of the attributions appended to them that have no basis in truth or fact.

I think what matters, imho, is whether or not a particular skill is worthwhile in the circumstances. If you can make an argument in its favor then it probably is or very well may be. I guess it all comes down to semantics.

Using myself as an example...I don't own a scope and the only one I ever used was the integral scope on a Steyr AUG when it was a duty weapon.

I live in a heavily forested environment and the area itself is surrounded by state and national forests.

I purchased my rifle for home defense and recreational shooting on my neighbor's property. To get a 100 yard line of sight without trees or other obstructions, (natural or man made), is a rarity unless you were on a rooftop, in a tree or lying on a straight section of road.

I might get a red dot optic at some point but for my intended purposes the MBUS sights are probably sufficient.

Am I a well rounded shooter? Probably not since I can't speak with any authority about MOA, zeoring at 200 yards, and don't know how to mount, calibrate or adjust a scope at this point in time.

But, on the other hand, do I have the necessary knowledge and skill set to use my rifle in the manner intended? I think I do (and I intend to enhance that skill as I become more acquainted with the firearm and platform).

The argument for learning to use iron sights isn't, in my opinion, about judging or determining whether a given shooter is well rounded or not. It's about possessing a necessary skill if his or her battery operated or other optic were somehow rendered inoperable when it might be called upon...especially in an unforeseen emergency.

Whether I am well rounded or not is less urgent in the circumstances in comparison to whether I am prepared.

Sorry for the long winded soliloquy. I just don't think we should get caught up in semantics. And despite my own view of this discussion, I think everyone brings up good and valid points.

__________________
642-1, M&P15 TS

i am generally pretty good with iron sights my first 15 years of shooting air rifle and 22s that is all i had...but i sold my old mini 14.. 180 series because there was no good way to put a scope on it and bought the ar to replace it so i could have a scoped rifle and maby yall are much better with irons than i am but on a crow or ground hawg at 150 - 250 yards you only get one shot and i feel way more confident with a scope.. maby thats just me..also i have never been a fan of peeps i like the v notch rear sights much better its what i grew up shooting

Don't make the mistake of equating a shotgun with a rifle. Sure, they're both guns, but the manual of operation is completely different. This is not about shotguns so I'll stop here.

Some will say that the phrase "we don't know what we don't know" is redundant or obvious, it's not. It speaks toward willful ignorance. We get a thing and rather than learn about it, we're generally too lazy to read the manual and just go off and strat using it, wrong. How many of you actually read the manual your car came with cover to cover? I do, but I'm a geek and not normal.

There is so much to shooting a rifle accurately it's amazing. It's a hobby unto itself. Most won't take the time to understand what MOA means or how the trajectory affects their shot. Most don't realize that there are two zero yardages. Most think that trigger control is keeping the trigger in the gun.

Each tool is different and has a specific purpose. The AR is a battle rifle, but the vast majority of them are purchased just to have fun at the range. So the whole concept of being able to pick up any gun to defend themselves is completely foreign to them.

Therefore, if a person wants to get a red dot because it's easier, fine. Sure I'd love to have everyone here become and expert in different guns and sighting systems; that's not going to happen.

I'm more interested in promoting the sport of shooting. If a person is more likely to get into it by having a red dot or magnified optic, I say go for it. Using a red dot first won't make a person a bad shooter. They can always learn irons at a later date.

You don't need to learn a stick shift first. It won't make a person a better driver. It's just another skill set that's valuable and opens them to a wider variety of possibilities.

In any group of enthusiasts we tend to eat our own. We see someone who's starting out, but not doing it the way we learned and we tell them it's wrong. I've seen guys light up new shooters over stuff that really doesn't matter.

So, if someone wants to throw a red dot on their rifle the day they buy it, I'm not going to stop them. If they want to change the barrel before they've ever shot it, I'll question that. When talking about guns, if the bullet/projectile/ejecta mass is hitting the intended target, nothing else matters.

Let's get them to the range first. Let's see that smile when they hit the target. Then we can work on decreasing the size of their groups or the value of being able to use any sighting system.

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

To me, a "well rounded shooter" is one who can shoot just about anything well enough to hit what he is aiming at. He has a basic understanding of how to use and adjust iron sights and optics. He can obtain a zero and shoot two, five shot groups with 20 rounds or less (military gives you 18). He understands the basics of trajectory and doesn't think that a bullet takes the flight path similar to a rainbow out of a level barrel.

He may not know advanced concepts, such as ranging with mil dot and dope, but should understand his scope well enough to grasp these concepts when explained. He should have a basic understanding of MOA and understand how it allows comparison of group sizes at different distances.

I guess a well rounded shooter in my mind has a good basis in the fundamentals. He has a good foundation on which to build the advanced concepts. He can shoot from field positions as well as a bench. He can use a hasty sling to stabilize the rifle. He can adjust zero.

And another reason to know how to use irons... you can use your irons to determine if an issue is with the scope, or the rifle itself....

This is where Rastoff and I agree... Get them shooting and get them hitting the target. After safety, this is first and foremost for an instructor. I do this with Boy Scouts that have never shot before. Let them shoot with the scope. Let them shoot with the red dot. Once they are making hits and start getting cocky, which they always do , challenge them to do the same with the irons. Makes for a good teaching moment.

Oh really. Ever shoot a slug through a shotgun? They aren't all that different. I'm not saying you can shoot tiny groups aiming down a barrel with no sights at all but most likely an experienced shooter with irons or a shotgun shooter used to a bead sight will be able to hit a center mass target at 50 yards or so. I've been shooting for 52 years. I've shot both shotguns and rifles. Aiming is aiming. I made my point so I'll stop here.

Excellent point.

From my observations, that's less than 1%.

BANG !!! You have an EMP burst. ALL and EVERYTHING electronic has just become useless. Your red dot scope is now a dead battery holder with a window. Your wristwatch even has a black screen along with your cell phone. Got a candle or oil lamp ? Your flashlight is dead too. Drop or bang around that high $$$ scope, soak it in the freezing rain, cook it in the hot sun and see how long it holds up and holds anything close to a zero. Cracked glass, loose the seal... I've yet to see a scope last forever, they eventually wear out or at best DO loose there accuracy to some degree over time and use no matter what you paid or who made it. I've never seen a repair kit for fixing scopes.

NOW you are back to basics and those BUIS you never quite figured out how to use or ever even zeroed. Mastering your BUIS, if you can see it, you can still hit it at "almost" ANY range. IF you can get that broken scope off the weapon.

__________________
THIS WE'LL DEFEND ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

I'm old school and learned from the ground up in the Boy Scouts. Our Troup was quite large, all the Fathers were VERY active and most were WWII or Korean Vets from all the different branches of service. We didn't have scopes. Just bolt action, single shot, iron sights. Remington rifles if I remember right. A chalk board to draw and show how everything was suppose to line up with the sights.

We had a rifle fixed on a box/rest that wouldn't move, sitting on a table, bolt removed. It was aimed at a lit wall about 10-15+ yards away. The "shooter" would sit at the rifle like he was going to shoot. Another person would be standing at the wall with a target, small hole punched in the center (X) of the target and a pencil in his hand. A white piece of paper would be taped to the wall in the same line of sight as the fixed rifle sights. The person at the wall would place the target off center, against the paper already taped to the wall. The shooter would talk to the other guy at the wall, telling him where to move the target so the punched hole would line up with the iron sights of the rifle. Then the guy at the wall would take the pencil and mark where the hole (X) of the target was on the white sheet of paper. This was repeated 3-5 times per shooter. Worked quite well to teach how to sight with iron sights AND also at the same time, the value of good grouping. Needless to say, at Summer Camp, we took all the top shooting awards hands down every year. Some were close, but we never got beat. ALL with single shot, bolt action, Iron Sights. Back then scopes were too expensive.

Taught classes the same way for years. It's also how my kids and grandkids have learned to shoot.

__________________
THIS WE'LL DEFEND ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Really? This is your reasoning for learning iron sights first? Dude, your tin foil hat is on too tight.

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

I would agree. It's a basic marksmanship skill.

If it's a specialized target or varmint rig that's another story.

It never hurts to have both.

I've had a few optics fail and batteries in red dots seem to go dead just before you need them, but I've yet to break any set of iron sights.

For me using irons reminds me shooting is a 3-dimensional problem - not a 2-dimensional problem. When using irons and I can see how a certain action moves the muzzle, and I have to worry about left-to-right movement, etc. I get an overall image in my head of what I need to do from steadiness, calmness perspective to get a good shot.

With a scope on a paper target (which is what optic shooting is for me) everything is very 2-dimensional. We figure if the reticle is in the right place and we squeeze the trigger all will be automatic - like a smart bomb. (At least the scope has the potential to have the shooter perceive it that way.)

So I use irons to remind me of my shooting process and (hopefully) put it in muscle memory - so when I'm on the scope - I'm doing basically the same thing. Now, I don't have irons on my AR. For me pulling out my 70 yr old Remington 511 .22 can bring me back to reality quickly on the fundamentals of good bench shooting.

OR

even in ww2 snipers used scopes....my old redfield is 25 years old and has lost seal so temp changes make it fog internal but leave it outside overnight to get acclomated to temp and it still holds zero and ill try not to throw it down steps and run it over before i need it...but everyone should be able to shoot irons so i see the importance of either sighting system

I think you just like to argue about everything and this is your normal response.

__________________
THIS WE'LL DEFEND ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

I can only imagine what's running though a newbies' mind while reading through this thread.

My advice to newbies-- When you get your Sport home, read the manual. Learn the parts, how the rifle operates and safety. Field strip and assemble a few times. Clean and lube. Find a source on the Net (lots of good vids) and read up on how to use a sling and buy one... cheap one is just fine for learning. Play with it at home. Buy 1k rounds of cheap ammo and go learn how to use that Sport with the irons you just bought. Once you got that minimum under your belt you'll be able to ask more intelligent questions and make more intelligent choices about what other kind of sighting system, if any, and other tactical doodads is best suited for you.

After spending time shooting my main A2 carbine (integral carry handle w/ irons), my son took to those sights and asked if there were AR15 aperture-type sights available for his Ruger 10/22 which had a scope on it. I found TechSights so we removed the scope and put on the TSR100 set. He says, "Irons are more fun."

Now add a GI cotton sling and you have a "liberty training rifle". If you haven't, check out Appleseedinfo.org... a weekend of basic shooting instruction with a little history thrown in that you and your son would enjoy.

Just curious, why is this even a discussion? Neither the AR or AK platform was designed as a target (sub MOA) platform. They are battle rifles, designed to hit torso sized targets at 200-300 yards. Trying to make them sniper rifles is like trying to turn my pickup truck into 18 wheeler - if I just add a couple of more after market add-ons, I can haul that 52' trailer cross country.

If you want a target rifle, buy a target rifle. You would probably be better off financially too. Some of those AR add-ons can get quite expensive and still not meet your expectations. Besides, then you would have two rifles, More is always better. JMO.

Maybe part of the reason for discussing precision accuracy is that a lot of guys don't have much opportunity to shoot at anything but paper so they naturally drift into that direction.

For me, the last time my AR saw paper and a bench was when zeroing my Aimpoint. Other than that, offhand steel. Agonizing over group size with an AR never appealed to me. Other guys love it. Heck, a lot of guys at our club never hold the rifle in their hands other than carrying it to the bench and back to the car.

I'm with MadMax on the EMP thing.

An EMP is probably the only thing that would ever cause my Aimpoint to fail.

If ya got an EOTech... best get to practicing wth those irons if the weatherman is calling for higher than usual humidity or rain.

That's why I have mine co-witnessed Now I might need a picatinny umbrella.

I had cataract surgery a few years back and had new lens put in both eyes. My surgeon asked if I wanted better long distance or short distance sight. He also shoots and hunts. I went for the long distance and can see my sights just fine on my handguns or rifles. But my arms are a bit short for reading without glasses if the print is too small.

Hearing is good. I can still hear the cling of hitting steal with iron sights.

__________________
THIS WE'LL DEFEND ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

When I was in my 40s I began to notice the Equal and Splenda packages at the restaurant all had very poor ink work on the back....

Since then I've found 1x red dots and long distance glasses a great combination.

I only need reading glasses indoors...I'm still okay in natural light outdoors.
It's only a matter of time though...

__________________
642-1, M&P15 TS

No, I asked a reasonable question and you responded with a ridiculous answer. Of course I thought it was a sarcastic comment from you and not serious. So, I responded in kind.

I asked why people thought it was valuable to learn iron sights first. I wanted to spark some good conversation about the intricacies of shooting a rifle. Specifically, the differences between iron sights, red dots and magnified glass.

Yes, you're absolutely right. If an EMP hits, and your red dot is outside a safe, it's likely that it will be damaged. Of course under that situation there will be a lot more to worry about than a dead red dot (irons and glass will still work).

Do you really think an EMP, i.e. nuclear war, is even in the top 90% of what we should be planning for?

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

Rastoff,

I stand with my first response.

I think you just like to argue about everything and this is your normal response.

There is also a higher risk of a Solar Flare. We HAVE had those in the past and they did a fair amount of damage back then to the few electric systems we did have at the time. That would also have the same effect as an EMP blast only more so now a days with all the electronics.

A safe isn't going to protect anything electronic. You need a completely sealed Faraday Cage to protect anything electronic. Look it up.

__________________
THIS WE'LL DEFEND ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Since this has been brought up twice now I thought I might inject a bit of my own personal experience which may be germane.

In a thread about my disabled M&P15 TS, Rastoff offered a comment or two which due to their brevity and (perceived) tone caused me to take umbrage.

Later in that same thread he provided a very cogent, at length explanation, supported by images, that shared very useful info to folks like myself who are just getting acquainted with the platform (even if it might not necessarily prove to be in lockstep with what the S&W technicians found during the warranty repair process).

When I wrote Rastoff via PM to thank him and apologize for the rocky start we got off to in the thread, he waved it aside and graciously said that that was the way of the net, communication was often misread or misunderstood and that sometimes those who appear at loggerheads often get past it and go on to become good forum members and friends.

I say this because despite his apparent irascibility, in my own experience Doug has proven to be one of the most helpful members on this site along with the likes of Chattanooga Phil and John aka JaPes .

Sorry that I felt this aside was necessary but since Doug has been called out twice, and I can understand why from personal experience, I thought the flip side of the coin was worth mentioning.

__________________
642-1, M&P15 TS

This has drifted way too far off topic from the OP.

Just like text messaging, people take stuff the wrong way, it's bound to happen because you can't fully get somebody's tone via text only. I'm pretty confident everybody here means well and means absolutely no offense as everybody here seems to be friendly and get along great (it's a firearm message board after all, we know how to carry ourselves around others), but it's just their style that's taken the wrong way at times. I've had a few of those experiences as well, but can't even tell you the names because it's just text and I don't want to jump to any conclusions so I brushed it off.

__________________
Isaiah 43:1-3

I was able to get this this morning with my Sport 1 and some reloads. I'd like to tighten it up a bit more but I think it's promising.

I guess the point is that the Sport, IMHO, does really well for such an economical rifle.

OR

That is a good group with this rifle and at that distance.

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

I was tagging a golf ball at 300 yards at our outdoor range. Very fun to say the least.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

Wow, that's amazing shooting. What kind of scope do you have?

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

I dont know about sub MOA's but at 100 yds with my Eotech co-witnessed with my irons.... I feel comfortable that a paper target doesnt have a chance

Attached Images

IMG_1332.jpg (62.1 KB, 52 views)

__________________
Thank You
Wayne

Off the bench , 100 yds, M&P 15 Sport 1/8 5R .
Black Hills 69gr HP Matchking.
Just installed CMC 3.5# trigger and used a Nikon P223 3x9x40
at 9x.
So, yes, the Sport is sub MOA capable.
Jim

Attached Images

Black Hills 69gr.jpg (6.8 KB, 68 views)

A little better shot.
Jim

Attached Images

.223 Black Hills 69gr.jpg (19.4 KB, 55 views)

My M&P15 shoots exactly to POI every single time regardless of ammo.

Can you send me a larger picture of that target? [email protected] I'd like to measure it with the software.

If you can, take another, but move the ruler a little further from the group. I need the ruler for a measuring standard, but it's easier if it's about 1/4"-1/2" away from the group.

That's a really good target.

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

Thanks Rastoff.
I have to wait untill someone with a cam comes over. Im old and living in the stone age.
That was the first time I shot the Black Hills in the Sport.
That ammo has been only used in a Savage.
I estimate a little under 1/2" center to center.
Will magnify and email, may be useful.
Jim

Nice small group jimbo. Ruler is blurry but that's a 1/2" group unless those three cartridges laying beside it are 30-06. Gonna try some of that Black Hills Matchking stuff.

OK Jim, this is the best I could do with that horribly grainy, low resolution picture:


Still, even if it's off due to not being able to read the ruler precisely, it's an amazing group for a Sport. Less than 1/2MOA is truly the best group I've seen from a low dollar rifle with a fairly low dollar scope.

Great shooting!

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

I haven't had my AR long enough to know these things but my Savage varmint rifle loves Black Hills Matchking loads. They are far better than anything else I've shot through that rifle. Of course that could be rifle specific but still - at least one rifle loves the stuff. I buy it by the case just to have plenty around. I think I have right at 2 cases of it right now. That isn't a lot for an AR of course but I bought it for a single shot varmint rifle. I thought I almost had a lifetime supply for that rifle. Things have changed somewhat though since I bought an AR.

Knowing I might expect to shoot another like that will probably make it more difficult. I seem to shoot my best when my expectations are low. When I shot the Black Hills, I was more interested in knowing where the 69gr bullets hit with a 55gr zero dialed in. Im surprised they did not shoot high.
Those 3 shots sure did make my day. The first thing I thought of was the OP`s original question.
Thanks, Rastoff for the calculus.
Jim

This is spot on.

PMC is good plinking ammo, but not the best indicator of your rifle's potential. If you must use bulk/inexpensive, try some Wolf Gold.

If you really want to test potential accuracy, get some good ammo.

Shot the Black Hills 69 gr again today at 100yds.
This time just under 3/4" It was a pleasure being able to back up
the first trial with that ammo in a Sport.
I did adjust W&E but over did it a little on windage.
There`s always tomorrow.
Jim

Attached Images

69gr Again.jpg (11.0 KB, 32 views)

Which version of Black Hills ammo are you using? I get better results from the reloaded stuff they sell if you can believe that. I don't know why but I have always had better luck with it. Specifically I like the 69 gr. SMK loads or the 75 gr. loads with the same bullet.

I'm glad to here they actually shoot that well as I plan to get one soonish...I want mine with iron sights though...its gonna be a house gun....may be in the future a red dot.

CJ, The ammo I shot in the Sport is the factory load.
I am in agreement with you that their reloaded ammo shoots better. That has been the case in my Savage anyway. I have some on hand and will buy more. Both .223. It`s expensive, but worth it.
The factory stuff I have left is going to be saved for the Sport.
I dont know if I dare shooting the blue box stuff in the Sport because if it does shoot better in it, I might faint.
Jim