I need an optic for my M&P 15 Sport 2. I use it for target/plinking, HD, and SHTF if that ever happens. Currently I don't shoot past 25 yards due to the limits of my local range. What type of optic would be best? From what I've read online I'm thinking a red dot makes the most sense based on my current use. Does this sound right? Or would a scope be better? Also what red dot would you recommend around $200 or less. Open to any opinions! Thanks!

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Proudly own 6 S&W firearms.

I'm kind of hard pressed to recommend one in the $200 range. If it's something that you're going to rely on for self defense, the possibility that it could fail to function or drift way off zero is something to consider - even for the short range use you've described. I've heard that Vortex makes some affordable sights with a good warranty, but I have no experience with them. SIG makes the Romeo series red dots. The prices appear to run a bit more than your $200, but they're not near as expensive as an equivalent size Aimpoint. For those, I'm waiting for some no-BS reviews cause they kind of looked promising to me. I. had used an EOTech 552 for the past 12 or so years until it quit holding zero. An armorer told me that it was still good for short range, somethings you have to be precise at close distances too. The Aimpoint PRO can be had for under $400 and is a solid piece of equipment though a bit large.

I'm guessing that you have iron sights on your 15. If not, I'd acquire a set before electronic sights, and also a good weapons light.

For a recreational red dot I'd suggest considering the Bushnell TRS-25 or the Primary Arms MicroDot. Both are under $100 and have quite good reputations for recreational use.

Once you start thinking about HD and SHTF, then you're talking about a rifle that has a different role than recreation. There really isn't a cheap optic in the $200 range that I would consider worthy.

Aimpoint makes what they call a ACO for a bit under $400 and a PRO for a bit over $400. Solid optics worthy of consideration. Then there's Aimpoint models for $600 and above.

My opinion is that there isn't much between the the sub $100 and the $400+. Some guys pay $200 for a Vortex but I don't think you're getting much more for the money over the sub $100 optics mentioned above other than a warranty.

If you are not set on a Red Dot there are excellent AR scopes for $200 or less such as the Nikon P223 3x32mm scope for about $150. I have two AR's with the Nikon P223 3x9x40mm scope and they are excellent and that scope is on sale at Midway for $169 this weekend.

I'd recommend you use the irons for anything that close in. From there, I'd consider a red dot, then a scope. The Burris FastFire is an expensive red dot and both Leupold, Nikon and Redfield make high quality scopes (just not the highest available) in the $200 price range if you check for even the slightest of discounts online.

I have an Aimpoint PRO, which I strongly recommend. It is the same as more expensive Aimpoint models, but doesn't have night vision settings. The single CR1/3 battery lasts 2 years, even if you never turn it off. The 2 MOA dot nearly covers the black of a 100 yard rifle target, but you can keep your rounds in the black at that range.

Unlike a scope, even an illuminated scope, the red dot is easy to see in all kinds of light, and you can shoot with both eyes open.

Aimpoint makes a very effective 3x scope to be used ahead of the sight. It also works with an Eotech. It's very rugged and can be mounted on a LaRue swing mount for close quarters.

Neumann, my understanding is that the Aimpoint PRO is compatible with night vision equipment (whereas some, like my H-2 are not and also may come in 2 MOA and 4 MOA versions). There have been some changes to other versions so it might be most accurate to say "similar" to other versions but I'm quibbling a bit (depending on specific needs).

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642-1, M&P15 TS

Good luck. I purchased a Vortex Strikefire II for my Sport and am quite satisfied. Purchase was on the recommendation of a friend who has thousands of rounds through his Bushmaster with the Strikefire with no problems. Cost 175.00 within the last 9 months. My use is similar to yours. I think there may be a lot of us using the sports as plinkers, target shooting and as part of my HD tools.

Of course there are many high end (expensive) choices and as many opinions on which is best. Sometimes the chatter hear reminds me of my street racing days long, long ago. Mouse motor or Rat motor? Different engines which both can go fast as hell. Choose your pizen mister.

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JT

Strikefire ll. I love mine. Just as good as an eotech, trujicon, or aimpoint at half the cost.

Umm, no... while it may be a good red dot sight, it is not "just as good as" Aimpoint or Trijicon. One only has to look at battery life on the Aimpoint vs the Strikefire to see this.

I'm not one to think that you must have an Aimpoint or nothing in a defensive situation. If I grab a rifle with a Bushnell TRS-25 on it, I will use it as long as the red dot comes on... but that is the difference. The Aimpoint can be left on and ready to use. The less expensive RDS have a greater chance of having a dead battery.

and survive an IED blast...

and survive being run over by a semi...

and survive bieing grazed by a 7.62 x 39 projectile...

...and survive a house fire.




Vortex, Bushnell, Primary Arms, Holo Sun, and whatever other dot of those tiers is nowhere as good as an Aimpoint, EoTech, or Trijicon ACOG. Here is something I've learned the long and expensive route. When one of your reasons to buy BRAND X is the rationale "it's just as good as an Aimpoint" (or EoTech, or Trijicon ACOG), it's primarily because you are unable to delay gratification in order to purchase the better item.

Person A has an income level high enough where they do not have to wait to buy an Aimpoint/EoTech/ACOG. Person B does not, but has $200 right now. Person B can choose to delay gratification and save a bit here and there to get to the buy in price of an Aimpoint/EoTech/ACOG. It may take a few months, but it can be done.

Example:

Someone not me delays gratification, saves up over time, and buys an Aimpoint. That's all they're ever going to spend on a LED driven optic because Aimpoint is the absolute best LED driven optic.

Me on the other hand, I couldn't delay gratification. I bought a Bushnell TRS something or other. I'm not happy. I buy a Bushnell T Dot because it's just as good as an Aimpoint and it has that ACOG profile. I'm not happy. I decide I want a micro dot, but I don't want to pay Aimpoint money. I buy a Primary Arms micro dot. I decide to buy a PA magnifier. I'm still not happy. I buy an EoTech 516. I'm starting to be happy. Phil kindly tells me that I may not have made the best choice. I back it up with an EoTech G3 magnifier. I'm really happy.

Bushnell #1 = $50
Bushnell #2 = $215
Primary Arms = $110
Primary Arms = $90
EoTech 512 = $450
EoTech G3 = $525

Total Spent over time = $1440

Here's the hard part, and Phil can use me as a prime example. I thought I'd be happy with the EoTech, then EoTech faced a government lawsuit because EoTech optics did not operate as EoTech claimed in the field. I returned the EoTech 512 to EoTech and am saddled with a G3 magnifier that I can't return.

Phil advised me over the entire time I've been here to just buy an Aimpoint. If I wanted fixed magnification (which he doesn't advocate) buy a Trijicon. Did I take his advice? No. Look how much money I've spent so far. I should have just been patient, delayed gratification, really thought about what I wanted, and bought an Aimpoint.

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-John

If you're doing recreational shooting. ...sure. But Strikefire is no where near as good as. Aim points are some seriously tough optics.

It's like saying that Walmart or Target kitchen knife sets are as good as professional chef knives. And its not because Chefs are elitests. Or the typical Chinese pocket knife is as good as a Randal

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Comparing the Vortex StrikeFire II to something like my H1 is silly, but comparing the $200 Vortex to a sub $100 Bushnell TRS-25 is relevant.

The Vortex is rated between 300 hours (high) and 6k hours (low). Bushnell a flat 3k hours. Tells me that the circuitry build is on par between Vortex and Bushnell. The difference being that the Vortex has an auto-shutoff so when you pick up the rifle after 12hrs it don't work. At least with the Bushnell it's possible to regularly change the battery and have a working red dot whenever needed. That's not possible with the Vortex. You must always pickup the rifle and fiddle with buttons. As far as I'm concerned, advantage goes to Bushnell in any type of self defense role even though neither optic is duty worthy IMO.

Both are not rated submersible.

Both have generic shockproof, waterproof, fogproof ratings.

So what is the buyer getting for a $200 Vortex over a $59 Bushnell other than a warranty?

Lot's of folks here have both and seem pleased with them.

I like my Strikefire II.

Buy what you want and can afford, but that doesn't make it "as good as". I hunt as well... My Sport has a Millet red dot that I bought on clearance. Meets my needs, but is not in the same league as Aimpoint. The hogs don't know the difference though.

The OP asked about $200 optics, so there is nothing wrong with your recommending the Vortex... meets the requirements of the OP. But if you say it is "as good as" Aimpoint or Trijicon, you should expect to be called out on it.

I like the color dark blue. But just because I like it doesn't mean it has light reflective qualities that are just as good as an orange traffic cone, which is on par with comparing dime store optics with Aimpoint and Trijicon.

Understood. And keep in mind that optics manufactures can't afford to deliver a CompM4 quality optic at dime store prices.

This isn't something to get emotional over.

I've got a bunch of dime store optics. They serve the intended purpose well. But I'm not going to pretend they are on par with quality, purpose built duty-worthy optics like Aimpoiint and Trijicon.

I'm using a Centerpoint Tactile #70301 Dot Sight at the moment and have ZERO problems with it so far. It started on my Henry .22 and now sits on my M&P 15 Sport 2. Laugh if you will, but for $30 on Amazon it suits my short distance purposes well and leaves plenty of cash left over for ammo.

As long as you don't try to tell me that it is as good as an Aimpoint and you shoot 3 shot groups that can be covered with a dime at 100 yards with it, I won't laugh.

I saw your review on Amazon. Using it for fun gun... if it quits working, so what. Nothing wrong with that!

I have no doubt that the higher priced red dots are better. But there is a matter of the law of diminishing returns. Why save for this particular piece of hardware over something else that might be just as important to a person if not more important.

Sure you can buy a sight that will survive a tremendous amount of abuse. But I wonder how many of the "delayed gratification" crowd does the same with something like a car. They are far more likely to save your life than a scope. Some are much tougher and stand up to years of use while some are dead after a few short years. How many here have used the same logic about delayed gratification to hold out for a Mercedes S500. They are pretty much the benchmark for automobiles. They are less likely to leave you stranded somewhere and they will last many, many years. It all comes down to choices in life.

I'm not going to be rude like some have been. I understand that some people think it is very important to have the very best when it comes to a rifle. They can post photos of their Aimpoints if they wish. I'll post a photo of my S500.

I'm not trying to be offensive in any way. I'm just making the point that we all make choices unless our name happens to be Bill Gates or something similar.

BTW I do have scopes that cost every bit as much as an Aimpoint if not more. I do understand there are reasons for going with quality. But some of the things people say are bad about lower priced red dots are made up for by a good old fashioned iron sight. Still I do have a $1500 rifle with a $450 scope on it. I get it that quality counts. But so does the budget. Just remember that some choose to go this way with their money.

CJ,

We are talking about optics that mount on our AR15s, not our vehicles.

If this was a car forum you'd be welcome to discuss that a Kia Rio is just as good as a Mercedes S550. However, this isn't a car forum nor are we going to discuss and post pictures of our cars here.

Back on topic....

Sure, we all have budgets and priorities. I have a bunch of dime store optics and mentioned a couple of them to the OP to consider for purchase. But to pretend that dime store red dot optics like Primary Arms, Vortex, Bushnell and others are the same as duty worthy optics like Aimpint and Trijicon is simply wrongheaded. However, they work well for me for recreational use.

I've had this Primary Arms Microdot for several years. It's provided excellent service.

I'll start off by saying, "I love Vortex." I have a Spitfire Prism and I have a Venom. They work great and have a great warranty. Definitely worth the money. AimPoint, EOtech, and Trijicon are battle proven optics. My Vortex optics work great for MY purpose, but if I were going to war, I'd get a Trijicon or AimPoint.

I see someone's already thinking about that first cold one...

Happy Independence Day to you and all here.

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642-1, M&P15 TS

@Brutus

Sir, your inquiry has left me a little confused. I don't know if it is a matter of terminology or mission. You say that you want a scope for close range use on a rifle destined for plinking, HD, and SHTF duty, and you shoot at 25 yards ... I am not being critical.

When using a scope, you limit your peripheral vision and end up with tunnel vision, seeing only what is immediately in front of the scope, thereby losing sight of any and all peripheral threats ... not a condition that you want in any form of SD situation. Any degree of magnification reduces your ability to notice peripheral threats.

I think based on the stated mission, that you are seeking a non magnifying reflexive optic, that projects an aiming reference for CQB, but doesn't interfere with your peripheral vision.

I built a CQB M4 type rifle for the fun of it, but I was limited by finances, being on fixed income. I know that higher quality/more expensive options are available, but for starters, I went with what the budget allowed.

I have detachable iron sights for when time allows a precise aimed shot. I have a BSA reflex optic that projects 4 or 5 aiming references on a small tv style screen for fast, close up target acquisition, and a rail mounted laser for intermediate distances. I see the application of this rifle to cover the span from contact distance to 100 yards.

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Judge control not gun control!

Ed, I think you're correct in that the OP used and intended the term "scope" as a generic substitute for "optic" and that considering his stated "mission" for the rifle, which appears to be clearly stated, his best option would be a non-magnified reflex system that meets his particular needs and budget.

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642-1, M&P15 TS

Thanks Ed, being new to optics I incorrectly thought "scope" was the general term for "optic". I corrected my original post to avoid any confusion.

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Proudly own 6 S&W firearms.

Thanks all for the feedback! I can't afford to buy an Aimpoint now or later due to having a 6 month old and single income. With that said I'm debating between a Vortex Strikefire 2, Vortex SPARC 2, or say go scope instead and get a Nikon P223 3-9x40. I'm 33 and wear a heavy prescription so my eyes aren't what they used to be. Just trying to decide, which is the hard part!

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Proudly own 6 S&W firearms.

Brutus, unless your purpose for the rifle has changed, one of the red dot systems will serve you best, imho and here are the reasons why...

The RDS (red dot system) does not require a particular eye relief. Your eye can be any distance from the tube unlike a rifle scope.

The RDS accommodates shooting with both eyes open. This greatly enhances peripheral vision and situational awareness. If you can see the target and the dot with or without glasses, (even if the dot is not a perfect circle or appears like a "starburst"), you are good to go.

The better RDS systems have little to no parallax effect. If the dot is on the target but not centered in the tube, you will still hit the target if you do your job.

And lastly, the RDS is good out to 200 yards and more based upon the testimonials from many of the good members on this site and elsewhere.

To me it would make a great deal of sense for you to start off with the RDS and eventually, if your future needs require doing so, purchase a scope.

Just my two cents.

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642-1, M&P15 TS

Thanks Blues! That makes perfect sense. I'll forget about a scope for now, if my future needs change as you say I'll reconsider it then.

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Proudly own 6 S&W firearms.

After reading through everything, BrutusMK2, a red dot would be your best choice and I would go with the best one your budget will allow.

I've had the Vortex Sparc II on my Sport for a while now without issues. I think either of your choices will serve your purpose.

It is ridiculous to say it is as good as an Aimpoint. Just as rediculous and childish to call it a dimestore optic

Having it for a while and using it are not the same things

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My pleasure. Just trying to pay forward the good advice I've received from several folks on this forum.

Let us know how it works out for you.

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642-1, M&P15 TS

Ok. If by using it you mean running over it with my truck, setting it on fire, or dragging it through the desert or Afgan Mts. Then no

If by using it you mean ,firing the rifle with it on for around 1K shots (before you say it ,Not enough in your opinion) and hauling it back and forth to the range. Then yes

The zero has never moved. I am not LEO or Military and pushing 60 never will be.

The same argument is made against the Sport by high dollar AR owners. Would you trust your life to an entry level AR?

I'm not a pilot but when I fly I want to be in the best plane possible with the best equipment possible.

I'm not a professional driver but I want the most reliable car possible.


Low end. No


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Thanks again everyone. I just ordered a Vortex Strikefire 2 with the bright red dot instead of red/green. Should get here later this week! Will figure out which cowitness I prefer once I get it.

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Proudly own 6 S&W firearms.

Hard to beat irons for short distances. If you need a red dot, buy once cry once.

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M&P9/9C/Shieldx2/Sportx2/15-22

I didn't mean to offend anyone. I was just making the point that people make the choices they want to make. Sure an Aimpoint is better than a Vortex. But whether it's part of someone's budget is part of the story and whether they actually want it is another part of the story.

I am not about to argue the quality differences. I know it exists. But some people will find a lesser sight satisfactory. That was the point I was trying to make. Just like some compromise on cars because they either have to or just want to the same is true of sights.

Again I didn't mean to offend anyone and I won't use examples outside the world of guns again.

Unless you only spend $30! Not worth crying about.

OP - take a look at the Meprolight RDS. It might still be on sale at $299 - not sure. I returned my Eotechs and bought the RDS for one of my M&P rifles. 3 brightness + night sight setting. Large sight window. Seems like a quality sight so far with good battery life. Works at 25 yards. The Israelis like it and I do too

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Webfarmer

$30 is $30. That much closer to a high quality red dot, ammo or whatever.

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M&P9/9C/Shieldx2/Sportx2/15-22

OK, so I'm forced into honesty here. I am actually NOT the original buyer of this Dollar Store (wish we still had dime stores) red AND green dot plus three other sight picture optic. I ripped it off from my former son-in-law so my cost is $0; but would purchase another if/when necessary.

Have you ever used a higher quality red dot? Do you have a point of reference that you are comparing it to?

Apples and oranges comparison. The Sport is lower cost than other rifles due to less features. But the areas where the cost savings come from are not going to affect the operation of the rifle. A lack of a dust cover, no heat shields in the handguard, a semi auto bolt carrier, etc., are not going to keep the rifle from firing or working properly.

However, a lower cost optic is not the same. Battery life is typically lower. Clarity of the optic is not as good as the higher priced models. Ability to hold zero, or return to zero is not as reliable. And most of these low cost optics are feature rich at a lower price point!

Here is food for thought. Go ask Marshall Lerner, CEO of Primary Arms, for his opinion on using a Primary Optics red dot on a duty rifle, or self defense rifle. He will advise that his optics are for recreational use, not something to stake your life on.

I agree on a duty rifle nothing but high end.But the vast majority of AR owners will never see duty.Most also have back up irons in the event of a failure.

As for the CEO comments, I wonder if legal liability influences his remarks.

More food for thought. Has there ever been one documented case where a civilian has been injured or killed because his red dot failed.

I've never seen the CEO of Aimpoint say that their optics are for recreational use only.

While most AR owners do have back up sights, the majority of them do not practice with them... either deploying them under pressure or shooting with them. If you are depending upon that optic for self defense, it needs to be reliable.

I don't know of a civilian being injured or killed, but I can personally speak to missed opportunities on hunts due to less expensive optics failing. If they are not reliable enough for me to hunt with them, should I trust that they will always work for defensive purposes? My ARs wear cheap optics... but my ARs are for sporting purposes, not defensive purposes. If I ever decide that my AR is going to replace my shotgun for home defense, I will upgrade the optic.

BUIS... that's what they are called but I trust my Aimpoint a zillion times more than my folding sights. I've read demonstrations of metal folding sights bent and rendered useless after a simple drop, and I've read at least one or more reports here of MBUS not surviving a simple drop from a bench at the range. In this report the MBUS actually held up better than metal. Back Up Iron Sight Drop Test – Kit Up!

A duty worthy red dot optic means to me one that is at the ready at all times and best suited to survive simple abuse... drops, slams against objects, submerged in a creek.. on and on. You don't have to be an operator in Afghanistan to understand the worthiness of an optic designed, built and tested that best survives abuse in any number of scenarios.

I have a box full of those $30 red dots around somewhere. People used to give them to me because they didn't really use them. I wonder why? I wonder why I don't use them? Could it be because they are junk you can't see through much less aim with? That's probably it. I'd offer to give them away but I have learned we aren't supposed to do that in this forum. Plus it would mean digging through other boxes just to find that stuff. It's not worth the hassle for me or anyone who might want one.

I didn't buy an Aimpoint. But I didn't buy an el cheapo brand either. They are worse than useless IMO. At least I can see through mine. And BTW my primary defense weapons have all had iron sights for my entire life. Anything can be knocked out of kilter but I like my chances with metal. Almost every situation I can forsee needing a defensive weapon is going to be CQB where sights really aren't that useful. Point shooting is a skill we should all learn. That's probably the big biggest reason I didn't worry about spending as much on a sight as I did my rifle. I've done that before many times BTW. But if you're outside shooting bad guys that are far enough away that you really need a good sight then the most expensive thing you will need is a good lawyer. YMMV.

I have my accurate shooters. I do count on my AR for defense but it will be used almost entirely as a point shooting weapon. If you can't do that I suggest you learn. It's important IMO.

Nope....I'd be afraid to. I know what would happen. Like my Mom would have characterized me in this situation: "Dumb and Happy"

The OP specifically said an optic for "SHTF" if that would ever to happen.

I'm curious what you guys think SHTF means. Air conditioner not working well on a hot summer day at the indoor range?

To me, it means a time without rule of law, when police, military, etc have lost control. A time when lawyers nor an optic's warranty will be of much use. Choose wisely.

WV, I am pretty much in accord with you. (I've never owned a Sport model so I'm not in a position to judge.)

When I bought my TS I purchased a rifle with most of the features I wanted.

The first things I added were a good white light (Streamlight) and a good sling.

Then, I added a chrome silicon buffer spring (even though the OEM spring seemed perfectly adequate. Still for $6 it wasn't painful.)

Lastly, installed a Wilson Combat TTU trigger and a LaRue mounted Aimpoint H-2. (I didn't opt for the slightly more expensive T-2 since I hated night vision equipment when I used it on the job for SRT and don't expect to purchase such gear; and I don't plan on taking part in underwater ops anytime soon.)

I feel that my rifle is as combat ready as I need it to be while still being a ball to enjoy for recreation.

Due to the excellent advice I've received here, I was able to pretty much accomplish most of my buying and crying just the once. And for that I am ever appreciative.

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642-1, M&P15 TS