Could use a little input folks. I'm in the market for a new Ar but not sure what is my best route. As the title of the thread says... First AR. What i'm wanting is a good home defense and hunting rifle. My local gun store has everything on the market, and has suggested that I buy a .223 and a new 308 upper. just looking for some insight and would like to stay below the $2000.00 range. Oh also something I can take to the range for some fun without the big price for ammo.... Thanks in advance!

Your gun store needs people that actually shoot and know guns. Colt makes an AR that can be converted from .223 to .308. All others are caliber size specific. You have one size lower for .223 length cartridges and another for .308 length.

Cost wise, .223 (5.56 NATO) is cheapest. You can purchase a 6.8 SPC or 6.5 Grendel upper and hunt deer size game, although a .223 with proper bullets is adequate although prohibited by some states.

You do not need to spend $2K for an AR. Buy a S&W Sport II, mount a good quality scope of 1-4x or 2-7x, replace the trigger, and spend the other $800 on ammunition or an additional upper in 6.8 SPC with scope.

As stated you will need to buy 2 different lowers and then 2 different uppers, unless you buy the Colt Modular carbine 901, which I would not recommend due to the cost which is outside your price range.



You will tons of different takes on this question. Most will answer without asking you any additional questions which IMHO is a mistake. Do not buy a gun solely based on price point. Choose a gun based on a configuration that matches your intended purposes. Take into account if you are the type of person who likes to tinker and replace parts yourself or are you a stock out of the box kind of person. Also in your budget include accessories necessary to accomplish your intended task.

For example for a home defense rifle you need to choose and optic like a red dot, mountable light, extra mags, BUIS etc.... For a hunting rifle a longer range scope & mount and state legal hunting mags depending on what you are hunting. These can be two very different tasks which require two different sets of accessories.

My advice is always to buy configuration not price point. If you want a free floating keymod rail don't buy a gun with an A2 handguard and an A2 front post. Think a lot about what you want the rifle to do and what you want it to look like. Read through this section of the forum and you will see tons of people asking how to "upgrade" their budget AR15 when for the same money they could have bought the "upgraded" configuration right out of the box for the same money and saved themselves a lot of time and headache.

So we need more info. Do you want to shoot with an optic or iron sights? Do you want a A2 GI handguard or a free floating rail like a keymod, Mlok or quad rail. What kind of hunting are you going to do? You talk about plinking at the range but I would ask at what range? Plinking at 50 yards is different than plinking at 500. Is this going to be your only AR15 or is this going to be the first of many?

If you can give us a little more info we can give you better answers IMHO. If we don't know these things we are just going to give generic advise mainly based on what we own based on what we do with our rifles which may or may not relate to you.

I'd also recommend the Sport II if you settle on a .223 platform, and unless you get lucky, I'd get another trigger for it. Another good option is the Rock River with their two-stage match trigger, which is about as good as a trigger can be in that price range. WVSig has good advice above, try to envision what you want to do with it. It's easy to go wild once you get started. Careful planning can really pay off.

Your overall post has got to be about the most concise advice I have ever read on this common question.

Should be a sticky.

Taking a paraphrased quote:

Second for a sticky. Short, concise to the point answer to the age old question.

I agree with WV here, you should decide your purpose, and buy/build accordingly. There are too many places to list to get information, but google images are a good way to find what you're looking for imo. Find something you think looks cool, and click it. Do that enough and I believe you'll naturally find what you're intended rifle is for. Some will disagree, which is fine, but if you're wanting an AR and know little or nothing about them, then it may be easiest to look at what others do with what you are envisioning owning yourself.

Self defense/home defense platforms are generally shorter and lighter than the longer range stuff. Longer platforms usually are heavier and less suited for indoors manipulation, and accuracy improvements become more apparent past the 250-300 yard mark. Also, caliber makes a significant intrusion into purpose.

There are other differences that might be worth mentioning. Direct impingement (gas pressure operated bolt) and piston (rod actuated bolt). Do some reading. Get ready for opinion a-plenty, take each with a grain of salt. I have both, neither have been in any way disappointing. The piston gun cleans faster, and stays prettier. The DI gun is easier to work on (by a hair's breadth), and get parts for. Both are really great to own, and I would own another of either without question.

Do you like working with your hands, or do you generally have someone else do the labor? Your purpose built rifle will be totally customized by you (or if you choose, by a smith) eventually. I don't think you'll find something that fits you off the shelf. Most do not, and some customizing is inevitable IMO anyway. From my understanding the less expensive platforms usually take more work or effort to make things bolt up.

Pay attention to the platform, the maker, and the warranty. A good rifle won't be cheap, and a cheap rifle won't make you as happy long-term. Think of it like the foundation of your AR's house. If the foundation is solid, all the frilly carpentry just makes it look nice. The function will be and remain impeccable regardless of the options. The doors and windows all function and seal, the cabinets stay square, and the floors never creak.

In the end my advice is along WVSig's post. Post more about what you want to do. And those guys who acctually do what you are wanting to do can chime in and tell you at that point what their hard won experience has taught them. And this advice will most definitely be of more value to you.

Also, spend some time reading through old posts and threads that you find interest in. Ask questions that come to mind and you'll resurrect threads and get us all going back to re-visit topics that may have long since been forgotten, and you may find bountiful information you didn't even know you were looking for...


My two scents... (Bad and worse)

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Here, a grain of salt.

OP, check the Michigan regs for yourself, but your state website just says .22 or larger. It's .23 or larger in my state which means .223 is out.

Most deer hunters agree .223 is a marginal deer round, even with high quality expanding ammo.

The only cheap range-plinking calibers for ARs are .22LR, 9mm, .223, and 7.62x39mm.

What kind of "home defense" are we talking about? Apartment living, the suburbs, or the wilderness?

Based on what little we know, here's two options:

Alexander Arms 6.5 Grendel rifles. 6.5 Grendel AR-15 Rifles by Alexander Arms

I would lean toward a fixed stock 20" which is better for hunting. At least for me, if you're building a combo hunting/defense rifle, make sure it's a great hunting rifle because you know you're going to use it that way every year. You may never (hopefully) have to use it defensively. If it stinks as a hunting gun you WILL eventually trade it off or sell it, trust me I know!

Hey you're on the S&W forum, how about the M&P10 Hunter model? Product: Model M&P10 .308 WIN/ 7.62x51 CAMO

7.62X39 in a gas cylinder plug operated rifle

I have the Colt 901SE and I also have the conversion block so that I can interchange the uppers to shoot 308 and 223/5.56. If you can find one at a reasonable price go for it. Of course you will need to find an upper but instead just buy another Colt AR and use that upper and keep the lower for a future build. I use the 18 inch upper off of my Colt Competition Rifle when I like to be able to switch out uppers when at the range. You should see the looks l get as if I am a mad scientist cobbling rifles together. The first picture is of the upper that comes on the competition rifle and the other is of several other ARs, but the 901 SE is the second one down.[/IMG]

WVSig's post is indeed gold. Good advice there.

Allow me to throw out some other tidbits though...

An AR15 CAN have both .223 and .308 uppers. But probably not like most here are thinking. Those numbers by themselves are not enough to answer the question.

When most say .308 what they really mean is .308Win. The .308Win is too large to fit in the AR15 magazine. However, the 7.62x39 round is a .308 caliber, but with a smaller/shorter case. This round will fit in the AR15 mag. So, yeah, you can get a .308 (really 7.62x39) upper and have a .223 upper with the same lower.

Now, .223Rem and 5.56x45 NATO have the same physical dimensions (close enough anyway). Some guns are designed to work with both and some are designed to work only with the .223Rem. The 5.56 round generates more pressure, but is far cheaper to buy, usually.

My recommendation for a first AR is the M&P15 Sport II. Everything you need and nothing you don't. Drop an optic on it if you want and you have a great gun for little $$$.

If you really want to shoot the .308Win (7.62x51) round, get an AR10.

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Freedom isn't free.

All great info and input thank you very much. I have some home work to do! One thing I do know is I want iron and optic. Just in case the optic were to fail. And it would be deer hunting. But I want caliber that can drop a deer. And I know that doesn't always happen. And yes it would be out door range, 300 yards max. The guys at y LGC are very knowledgeable. There are just so many options and brands to consider. I just don't want to rush in and buy the first one the hand me....lol That's why I'm asking you and appreciate all the info!
I have looked at the AR10 but only on the web. A lot of $$.
Ok Back on the hunt......Thanks again.

If you want an AR 10 take a look at APF Armory, just picked up one of their 308 Hunters and it's an awesome rifle, engineering quality way above the cost. Be aware 308 ARs are not light though.

If it were me I would get a bolt action deer rifle with a decent scope and then spec out your AR15 in 556. You will get more bang for the buck and have a rifle perfectly suited to the task. That would leave you a lot of room to really spec out that AR15 but then again I am not a deer hunter. LOL

AR10s are IMHO too expensive for the task of hunting deer. You are paying a lot of $$$ to have an AR10 but if you are really interested in that route budget $1200 for the rifle + optic. This is my I suggest another rifle because you can get a decent deer setup and an optic for the price of just the AR10.

That will not leave you much for your AR15 but you might be able to get it done. You could get an Aero Precision AC-15 mid length complete rifles for $579 from Brownells + transfer and shipping. From there you would need a rear BUIS and you could add a Primary Arms advanced micro dot for $169 with a decent mount. That could serve as a home defense setup as long as you are not too hard on the optic and then can upgrade as needed.

Agree.... Deer hunting doesn't take an exotic, $2000 rifle. Get yourself a Savage, Ruger American, or Howa 1500 and a decent scope... Less than $700 if you find sales. Academy online has a Nikon Monarch 5 for less than $400 right now.

Then get yourself an AR in 5.56 for range fun, home defense, etc.

300 AAC blackout, you can buy a .223, than one day get a 300 blackout barrel, that's all you need to convert. than you can shoot .223 and a .308 caliber out of the same gun for the cheapest cost.

One thing to consider with an optic. Spend the extra money and buy a quick disconnect scope mount that will require no tools to remove it if the scope fails. Murphy's Law says the scope will fail at the most inopportune time and the tool will have been lost or accidentally left at camp or home.

There are A LOT of AR-15's out there besides the Sport 2, in the Sport 2's price range. You're on a S&W forum website. Of course the Sport 2 is the "suggested" choice!
I own a first series Sport 1 and a Ruger AR-556. They are both GREAT rifles. So is the Sport 2. YOU buy what YOU want, not what someone else suggests YOU buy! Go to a gun range that rents AR's and shoot a few. See what feels good to YOU.

With an absolute co-witness or a lower 1/3 if the optic fails you simply deploy the BUIS and keep shooting.

If I am in situation where I might be in harms way my BUIS are always deployed which is one of the reasons I prefer a lower 1/3 co-witness because the BUIS does not cloud my use of a red dot. If the optic were to fail I simply move to irons with the sight intact. I do have some redots which require no tools to remove but it is not a necessity IMHO.

For me the biggest advantage of quick release mount is being able to move the sight to another rifle or remove it and remount it to the same rifle without loosing Zero.

I prefer, and own, a Colt LE 6940. It is not a cheap rifle, but a good one.

Since he was expressing a desire to hunt, I automatically went to a magnified optic over a red dot but what you say is true.

It's probably a personal bias on my part but I don't generally equate a red dot with hunting. Not that it can't be used that way.


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Talk to a different gun store employee.

5.56 NATO = AR-15

.308 Win = AR-10

The rifles look the same, but they are wholly different.

Everyone here can give you advice. Problem is that we are faceless schmoes on the internet. At a max $2K budget, you've priced yourself into a different class of AR.

1. Envision what an AR-15 is in your mind. Imagine everything you want on it.

2. Buy a complete rifle. At your $2K max, start looking at BCM, Noveske, Daniel Defense, and the like.

3. Keep in mind the total cost of ownership. You'll need cleaning kit, bag/case, extra mags, ammo, optic.

4. If at all possible, poll your friends and family to find anyone who has credible experience that can give you bravado-free advice. Kindly ask that person to go AR-15 shopping with you and treat them to a burger.

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-John

Solid advice right here.

Where I live there are several old school VFW posts close. If it were me, I might just meander into one and find the oldest guy there. You could do the same. Ask him to recommend some competent adviser on your subject and treat whoever that is to a really great meal and a round. You might just find a treasure trove... in many more ways than one.

Just my thoughts... and tangents.

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Here, a grain of salt.

Quite a bit of the parts on an AR10 class rifle is about 1/3 larger than what is on an AR15. The trigger group and buffer tube on the M&P10 is the same size as what is on the AR15. I think other brands pretty much follow suit to that format.

Outside of the above listed Colt, an AR10 upper is not going to fit on an AR15 lower. I strongly suspect that the AR15 upper is specially made to fit an AR10 lower and the lower has some sort of adapter insert to allow AR15 magazines to fit in the AR10 lower in order to be able to enable such a swap to work.

A neat idea but I imagine it would be a pretty hefty AR15 to carry around in such a configuration since AR10s are not a light rifle. At least not compared to a true AR15.

You posted this on a Smith & Wesson forum. I hope you expected to have a lot of people say, Smith & Wesson M&P-15.

I agree with everything that JaPes said in post #21 except for his bullet #4. Anyone who goes with you and gives you good advice deserves a steak, not just a burger.

Thanks Apollo. Thats what a guy from my LGC said. I thought that sounded like a good option. since I will hunt for only a couple week ends a year. But I like to go to the range also.
Thanks again guys for all you input and links!!

I hear what you are saying with a longer scope with magnification is it harder to set it up where you can deploy the BUIS with the scope still mounted.

My 2 cents a Sport II or Ruger AR556 goes for the $550/700$ range on average Windham Weaponry has a 308 in the $1500 range (Retail) you should be able to find a lower price.. I am sure you can find several 308 ARs in that price range! SO add the two up and you can get both in your 2k$ range no fuss no muss just grab and go
Bad Request Windham Link not sure why says bad request!

308 ar - - Yahoo Search Results

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9mm Shield

Shameless plug. Selling a rifle just up from here in the sticky threads. Put a 300blk on that lower and you're set.

Bah... the shame is setting in...

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Here, a grain of salt.

For about $500 or less, you can build an AR using parts from PSA. They have EVERYTHING!

I have quite a few AR's of different makes. IMO the biggest bang for the buck is the Rock River line. They have a group size guarantee which is very conservative and have great out of the box triggers. One of the few brands I own, the other is a POF, thatI didn't have to put a Geissele trigger in. Both my RR's an Elite Comp and an ATH are well made. The Elite Comp is a 16" and shoots 0.75 or better 5 shoot 100 yard groups. The ATH has an 18"barrel and shoot well under 0.75" guarantee most of the time. Either will cost you less than half of you $2000 budget.

My advice is do not buy a bottom end starter AR. It's been my experience that most of those that do and shoot a lot end up buying twice or upgrade which in the end cost as much or more than buying a better model to start with.

One word of caution. .300 AAC/Blackout is typically a subsonic round so it can be run with a suppressor. So, effective range is a bit short. Think .30-30 Winchester capability out of an AR. If 300 yards or less works for you, the you're good.


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I agree with the two gun approach. Bolt gun for hunting in whatever caliber is well suited, and an AR15 configured to best suit your defensive purposes.

I'd suggest a Remington 700 in the caliber and configuration of your choice and an AR15. Most popular configuration is a 16in barrel with a carbine or mid length gas system and a free float handguard. The free float handguard allows you a ton of versatility over the standard A2 handguard. The standard A2 handguard is by far the most common gripe and later "upgrade" among Sport buyers.

Your budget limited to $2k for an AR that is well suited for personal defense is about right. That's about what I've got in mine. Red dot and trigger is around $1k, and the rifle with with extra mags, sling, grips and other small stuff is around $1k. Keep in mind that a couple cases of M193 or M855 will be around $650.

Here's my two...

sgtsandman, Take a look at the ballistics on line, I didn't think that the 300AAC was worth the barrel swap, but after studying the charts, I learned otherwise. I'm not into suppressors much, so the sub-sonics didn't interest me much. After looking at the specs on the supersonic loads, I had a change of mind. It's not a 7.62X51, but it does give the AR-15 platform a little more umph.

The round does have it place and I won't bad mouth the round for sure. I still hunt with .30-30 and .45/70 because of where I hunt and because PA does not allow semi-automatic rifles for hunting yet (we're trying). So, the round's performance isn't an issue to me.

Since I already have a 5.56 and a .308 AR, the .300AAC doesn't interest me but I won't dissuade someone else from getting one. Especially of they want something with some more oomph to use on their existing AR15.

If I remember correctly, the performance of the round is better than 7.62X39 too.

As others have noted, the AR15 is an excellent home defense and lower cost target shooter, but it's somewhat underpowered for full size game hunting.

For a good all around rifle, I recommend checking out the semi-auto M1A Scout. The rifle is chambered for 308 so it has enough thump to take down full size game, and the 18" Scout barrel makes it handy enough to operate in the close quarters. Plus, there is a quarter-turn valve that easily shuts off the gas system to allow the rifle to operate like a bolt action when required by local laws for hunting. The downside is that 308 is a little pricey for punching holes in paper if target shooting is mostly your thing.

Scout Squad | M1A Rifle for Sale | Semi Automatic Firearms

There really isn't one rifle or combo-transformer rifle that is excellent for both short range home defense / target practice and full size game hunting. The M1A Scout is a good compromise.

Two rifles are really required if you want top performers in both roles.


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Boy ain't that the truth. The M1A is a great rifle, but around here the sellers sure are proud of them. They are at least twice the price of a decent AR. Then to feed them is another kick in the pants. Cheap .308Win rounds are $24/20 and good ones are $40/20.

So, yeah, it's a great gun, but it'll cost ya to get one and then again to feed it.

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Freedom isn't free.

For precision paper punching with a .308, 168g Federal Gold Medal Match is an excellent choice. I recently picked up 10 20rd boxes from Palmetto for $199 delivered.

You've gotten some wonderful advice. One more piece to the puzzle..Clint Smith says..Brownell's makes 1,500 things for an AR, you probably don't need them all.

I think the guys over at Brownells could find a way if you wanted to though. They're pretty good.

Seriously though, I would very highly recomend Brownells. They have a pretty damned good website for the AR/SR market, and most other shooting sports you can think of. If you ever buy something you're not 100% satisfied with, they return it no hassle. Good place.

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Here, a grain of salt.

Thanks for the heads up. That is a super deal on great ammo. I have some on the way now too.

That's cheaper than I can reload.

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Freedom isn't free.

@Hotshot9,

You have plenty of advice here, and it can't be faulted. There is a little bit more to consider, which can muddy the waters.

Regarding the 223, you need to keep an eye on barrel twist and the distances that you want to shoot. Lets forget the original 1:12-14" twist, that was marginally adequate for the 55gr issued M193 ammo from the '60's. A decent rule of thumb:
1:9" twist: maximum of a 72gr bullet to maybe 500 yards.
1:8" twist: maximum of maybe 85gr out to 600 yards, a 69gr or lighter could be marginally acceptable on a no wind day.
1:7" twist: handles 69gr great up to about 300 yards, handles 77gr well at 300 to 600 yards, handles 80gr great out to 600 yards.
1:6.5" twist: mandatory for 95gr bullets.

Using an AR15 lower, you can also purchase or build uppers to accommodate other cartridges, such as:
Previously mentioned:
300AAC Blackout
6.8mm Remington SPC
7.62x39
6x47

Others that could be more appropriate for hunting but work on an AR15 lower:
6mm Fat Rat (1000 yard capable)
6.5mm Grendel

You will find a continuous flow of developments as shooters try to push the capabilities of the AR.

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Judge control not gun control!

Just want to thank all of you once again... I made my purchase on Friday.....I decided on the S&W AR 15T I came to the conclusion that I will most likely go over my intended budget( just have to work a little harder) lol. So I took it to the range and set it up at 50 yards. I ran about 100 rounds of federal 223 65gr fmj through it and it shot very nice. Ended up with groups of six in about a 2" ring on my target. I'll take that. I did put a inexpensive red dot (my first one) on it and really liked it. And shooting with the battle sights that came with the AR. I kept 6 rounds in about a 4" ring. Had to do some adjusting for both of coarse. But all in all it was a very nice experience.

Congratulations on your AR. I hope that you enjoy your new tool of war. You cannot go wrong buying a good gun. I believe doing so will always yield good results. Safe and accurate shooting my friend.

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Here, a grain of salt.

Solid choice enjoy it. Remember pics or it didn't happen.

Thank guys! I have to learn how to post pics that's gonna be a task in itself...
Just finished cleaning my new AR only 100 rnds through it but I couldn't resist tinkering, then remembered that I didn't clean my m&p 9 since I shot it last week. That's all fun to me. I think it's just part of the love of gun ownership. My wife looks at me like I'm crazy.... reminds me of when I was a kid putting model cars together. Oh Yea I forgot to mention that I got a nice hard shell case for my AR too. It will hold the AR and the new upper when I get it. And a few mags . It's the double foam type so you can cut in all your toys and add ons.

I would say that most everything I would hunt would be with in 100 yards or so. The places I would hunt will be kinda thick woods.

Good choice and realistic conclusion. Enjoy.

That's not true anymore, manufacturers are making lots of supersonic .300blk rounds. In fact, I'll say they are much, much easier to find moreso than the subs. Believe me, I know. Finding reasonable subsonic .300blk rounds anymore is a huge chore. And go look at the ballistics of the supersonic .300blk rounds, pretty impressive.

The .300blk round will suit you the best IMO if you don't hunt a ton and you want to save some money. You can buy a .300blk upper and just user your existing lower and mags. It really is a great set up.

Word of caution though. Once you start down the .300 road, you'll get the itch for a supressor and some subsonic rounds....that's when your wallet will hate you.

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Still carrying my S&W 642

Apollo99 corrected me on that but thanks. I have nothing against the round and I won't talk anyone out of getting a rifle/upper chambered in the round.

I went the .308 Winchester/7.62X51 NATO route, so relatively speaking, I may be in the same spending boat or higher with that rifle. I like it too much to get rid of it in favor of something in .300AAC/Blackout and I have a bolt rifle that uses the same magazines, so I'm kind of locked into it. Not to mention the money already spent.

I went with the brand new Russian Izhmash Saiga in 223 & 308. I'm under $600. They'll don't anything an ar can do but jam they don't jam. And there accurate in any kind of weather they function.