Been going to the range 3 times a week since last January. I figure average of 80 rds a day so 240 a week or 960 a month. I go thru a lot of rds but that still sounds like a lot. A month or two ago I began having a hard time hitting a group. As time went on, I started missing the black. I know I'm starting to get old but that's ridiculous. The other day I put 300+ rds thru and sometimes I saw I was missing the whole target. Today I ran 200+ rds and they were all over the place. Went to pick up the target and VIOLA', 90% were keyholed. Made me feel better that maybe it wasn't me that was missing.

Now to the point, has anyone else worn out a barrel around 10,000 rds? I think it started showing around 7000 rds.


Charlie

Check out this info.
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/bras...ammo/#accuracy

My quick read has me conclude that shooting out a barrel at the 10,000 round mark seems more than reasonable/expected.

I'm curious to know the deets of the gun: Brand, model, barrel construction, etc. Also - was it brass or steel cased ammo? And if brass - reloads?

OR

According t one of the premier aftermarket barrel makers, many "shot out" barrels have severe copper fouling that can be removed to restore most of the accuracy. Course, it also depends on your accuracy expectation to decide when you need a new barrel.


I have shot old milsurps with no rifling at all for several inches ahead of the chamber that would shoot 3 inch groups at 100 with jacketed ball.

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Science plus Art

Barrel probably is worn out. However, as OKFC05 points out, it could be badly fouled. You have nothing to lose by using an aggressive copper dissolving cleaner like Sweet's 7.62 or similar. If it is fouled, the bore will have to be kept wet with repeated applications. Take the flash hider off. The dissolved copper will foul the inside with blue copper oxide.

If you have a stainless barrel or bare steel, its probably shot out, I believe a chrome lined barrel should last a a little longer.

The rifle is a stock M&P15 sport (not II). The first couple thousand rds were Federal or PMC Gold, then Wolf gold Then Tula or wolf steel case with copper bullets. Then, because of the amount of rounds I was going thru, I've been using Tula steel...probably 5000 rds. Most were 55 gr but lately I've been using 62 and 75 gr JHP but I've also been trying to shoot off most of the 55gr.

Thanks otisrush for that link. I'll go thru it really carefully.

I ordered a replacement barrel. It sounded good...

Premium Grade Stainless .223 WYLDE Barrel, 16" Contour Barrel,1 in 8 twist Gas port drilled for carbine length gas set up, and threaded for comp. Barrel Extension in rear... drilled with a .070" gas port opening at carbine length. It has a .750 gas block diameter ready to install into receiver. .223 / 5.56 Nato. Chambered as 223 WYLDE. This barrel is made with 416 stainless gun barrel quality steel rated at a barrel life of 150,000 rounds!!

I'll scrub the heck outta the barrel and give it a hundred rounds and see what it looks like.


Thanks guys,
Charlie

I would really like to hear about the results after cleaning and shooting some 55 grain different ammo. How about a range report after you shoot it. I have also shot some old war horses that were really bad off that would still shoot better than what you are reporting. Thanks,Vonn

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Hue 68 noli me tangere

960 rounds x 12 months = 11,50xx rounds.

I know that the result isn't 100% exact but if your dates and numbers are more or less correct then that's about how much you shot. At this point you'd have to know what kind of barrel you have. A chrome lined should last a little longer.....up to 20k rounds but that also depends on the ammo. It could be that it's time for a new barrel

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

This thread has made me decide I'm going go add a life goal of "Shoot out a barrel". That will be objective proof that I had fun.

:-)

OR

There are so many variables involved, it's hard to say how long any barrel will last, regardless of the gun it's attached to. Reportedly, overheating causes premature wear. The Colt manual states that 12-15 rounds per minute can be maintained without serious overheating. One would assume this advice would apply to other ARs as well.

However, years ago, a well-known barrelmaker, Ed Shilen stated that it would be difficult (he didn't say impossible) to damage a barrel from heat alone unless a machine gun was being fired.

I would guess many shooters don't really know how many rounds they have fired through a barrel and estimates may not even be close to the real number, large or small.

Cleaning? Copper buildup, unless a bore is badly neglected, doesn't affect accuracy as much as many think it does. Same with carbon fouling, but once it's built up to a point where accuracy deteriorates, carbon is extremely difficult to remove; far more trouble than copper fouling.

I've never shot out a barrel, but it is entirely possible. I have seen some inaccuracy that was attributed to a coper fouled barrel. In that case a good cleaning with a solvent, and a neutralization afterwards did the trick. I have seen some barrels ruined due to poor cleaning practices, mostly over scrubbing with the wrong brushes. I'm curious to see if there is an improvement in accuracy after removing any fouling if there is any present.

Round count isn't the only factor. Heat is an enemy of barrel life. I see you run through over 300rds in a range visit. Fast pace of fire along with some mag dumps and ammo type can affect the round count/barrel life equation.
Here's a link you might find interesting. Notice the significant changes in accuracy beyond 4k rounds.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/bras...el-cased-ammo/

Some copper removing products work faster than others, but many will remove the fouling, though some brushing is usually required. As for a carbon problem, I've tried a number of products and haven't found anything that works on a hard carbon buildup. All of them might be effective on very light fouling, but JB Paste and a lot of elbow grease is the only thing I've tried that will actually remove a heavy layer of carbon.

Many of us don't realize we have a problem with carbon until we see a deterioration in accuracy. Here's where a bore scope is indispensable.

Others have already pointed out the LuckyGunner article.

You've also already answered ammunition type/bullet construction in another post, but how long would it take you to shoot the average 80 rounds?

How often did you clean the rifle and what was it cleaned with?

Have you visually inspected the rifling of the barrel from both the muzzle and breach?

Have you verified the function and integrity of all other components of the rifle (i.e. sights that may have gradually loosened, gas key that is working loose, buffer tube/buffer tube nut that is loose, etc.)?

I'm inclined to agree with you that with 10,000+ rounds and bullets consistently keyholing, the barrel is probably shot out, but it pays to make sure.

You may also want to address other components of the gun that are liable to wear out with use like components of the bolt and bolt garrier, gas tube and such.

A more likely problem is throat erosion.....where a bolt action rifle can have a barrel set back, a auto loader cannot. A set of Go-NoGo guages will confirm that.

When I shot NRA Service Rifle matches the throat would be gone before the rifling would...could usually get about 8-9000 rounds downrange before needing to rebarrel.

Randy

Scrubbed the chamber real good and ran a brush thru the bore a half dozen times. I can clearly see the lands and grooves but it doesn't look like it did when new. The new bore looked like a bunch of skinny ridges but now it looks like wide lands. Don't know what that means.

Shooting 3 times a week, I don't clean the gun after every use like I did when new. Lately, I clean her when a cartridge gets stuck in the chamber. That mean there's a carbon build-up in the chamber. I also run her on the wet side.

Tomorrow is shooting day. I'll report on what happens.

More info...
I noticed my scope was a tiny bit loose. I removed the scope to tighten the mount. Bolts were tight. swapped scopes anyway when I shot the last 200+ and keyholed the target.

I use 'ol Hoppes #9 on the bore. I put the chamber brush deep in the chamber and pour #9 on top. It drains slowly to give as much time to soak the bore. I do this twice.

I also use a combination of different solvents all mixed together. Diesel, lacquer thinner, white gas and some MEK(from my boat building box of fiberglass stuff).
I spray this stuff to rinse down EVERYTHING to wash off any carbon and grit.

I'm still digesting the fact you're doing 960 rounds per month. That is fantastic.

You are my inspiration. ROFL

Say the OP shot factory new ammo, brass case, 55gr FMJ, of a single brand.

1K rounds of Wolf Gold shipped is about $315 shipped. 31.5¢ per round.

960 rounds a month since last January is 10,560 rounds. Add another 240 to get to this week. 10,800 rounds.

10,800 X 31.5¢ = $3,402 in ammo.

Dude. Given the dollar amount of ammo you've burned through to date, you can afford a new barrel. Given the glut of AR-15 parts on the market, it's probably cheaper to buy a whole complete, furniture-less, upper with BCG. That way you get a new barrel, bolt carrier group, gas block, gas tube, etc. Transfer over your furniture and optic.

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-John

Unfortunately it's been raining for the last couple of days. The range turns into a 100 yd mud crawl. They probably shut down the range early anyway. Gotta go shopping for rain boots.

I am predicting it might shoot a little better after the vigorous cleaning but then it will quickly go back to key-holing. If not, then you still have some life left in your barrel.

My second AR was put together with components. Complete upper receiver as JaPes suggested and lower thru individual parts/kits.

I also shoot the same amount with the second AR...and the same amount with my Shield 9 and SD9VE. I guess you can see why I went to steel. I have about 8000 rds on hand and plan to slow down my shooting regiment, now that I can hit what I'm aiming at...'cept for this M&P Sport.

Went to the range Fri. One shot showed a keyholed round. Finished off the mag and went to the pistol range.

Got home to replace the barrel and, of course, ran into problems right off. The gas block mount on the new barrel had a dimpled set screw instead of the tapered pins like the MP15 barrel so I had to order another gas block that had the three set screws. That'll take at least a week to get here. I ordered another scope so I can see the bullet holes at the 200 yd range. The 200 yd range should slow my excessive firing rate down...but it's not open every day.

I have another problem I'll post about hexmags.

That can be an expensive goal. I had 3 prairie dog guns when I lived in Minneapolis. Thompson-Center Contender(super 14 barrel), S&W 1500 rifle, and Remington 700 with Shilen SS barrel in 25-06. After about 8 years, all 3 barrels keyholed 90° at 50 yards, group size was measured in feet at 100 yards.

I shot 34# of surplus H414 through it 52 grains at a time. Those were the "Golden Days" of prairie dog shooting.

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S&WHF 366

Tula and Wolf ammo does have copper plated steel bullets along with the steel case, wondering if the steel bullet will accelerate the life of the barrel faster than conventional bullets.

Yes, its been proven. However, with the money you save over the life of the barrel, you can easily buy a new barrel, or even a basic full upper.

Logic.

Barrel Steel is harder than mild steel or copper.

Shoot a bi-metal jacketed round (copper wash over mild steel) and you will erode the lands faster than a copper jacketed projectile.

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-John

I have been shooting ARs in NRA high power competition since about 1998. Yes, fouling could be the source of your key holing, but I really think that you shot out your barrel.

Typically, a 223 match grade barrel has an accuracy life of about 5000 rounds. That is using a jacketed bullet over a lead, not steel, core. Additionally, a match barrel will usually fire 10 rounds in 60 seconds, at the worst. Heat is a problem, but I doubt in this case.

In addition to wearing down the rifling, you probably have a high level of throat erosion which has increased the bullet jump (leade).

It has been suggested that you just get another upper, which is fine, but I would Re-barrel your current upper, it can be a lot less expensive.

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Judge control not gun control!

Ok, what size groups ( at what distance) , with ammo of known accuracy, initially ? Now ? A benchrest or F Class shooter would consider a bbl shot out if went from .5moa to .8moa . For shooting 2 minute of Felon, that would be barely broken in.

I like Hoppes #9 for general light cleaning. But for this periodic removing of copper deposits, you need a copper specific product . Leave it to soak 10min to cpl hours at a time. Repeat until patchs come out clean instead of blue.

Did you even look at the bore of the barrel?

I think this is the case also. Steel bullets are hard on barrels.

You should check out that Lucky Gunner write-up on steel vs brass--you'll enjoy it!

Friend of mine makes barrels for the guns he sells.... According to him the life expectancy for a good stainless rifle barrel is somewhere between 2 and 3 minutes. The variance of a minute takes into account muzzle velocity, rate of fire, and cleaning...To arrive at a ''round count'' you must figure out how long a bullet stays in the barrel.. Also known as Dwell Time... Then divide that time into 120 or 180 seconds..ans-- round count..

There was a study done on gunboards sometime back. two ar's one shot with brass cased copper jacketed ammo and the other was with steel cased and copper plated steel jacketed ammo. The first rifle finished the tests and was ready for more. The second rifle with the steel cased ammo and copper plated steel jacketed ammo never even came close to finishing. Bore was severly worn especially around the gas port to the point it just looked like a hole in the barrel. Moral of the story if you want long life from your barrel stay away from the steel cased copper plated steel jacketed bullets. Should still be on the gunboards site. Was well done and interesting reading. A standard colt barrel should be good for at least 10K rounds providing it has been cleaned accordingly and no mag dumps. I have seen a few indivduals do the mag dump thing and all that does is waste ammo and burn out barrels.Frank

Stainless also has a reputation of dropping accuracy like falling off a cliff. Where as more conventional barrels tend to drop off gradually. Each has it's pluses and minuses.

Just got my quick reply shot out to the ozone somewhere.

In short... Ebay SS barrel
223 WYLDE Barrel 16" W/1 in 8 Twist Stainless Steel - 5.56
Item #( 262829268847 )

Other AR is also shooting 5' off the target. Had to shoot the berm to see it. Got the whole upper at SAA(Surplus Ammo). They are looking into the 150,000 rd barrel life claim of the replacement SS barrel for the M&P sport.

Yes many people like myself will site the Lucky Gunner article as proof that steel ammo accelerators barrel wear. It has been discussed here before.

Last time IIRC there was speculation by cyphertext that it is not just the steel case that might be the cause for the accelerated wear but that the cheap power and primer play a part.

Here is a link to that discussion. Undecided On Steel Or Brass Case For New M&P15 Sport II

It is an interesting read and as JaPes said in this thread if you have shot 10,000 round of even steel case ammo you can afford a new barrel or even a new complete upper.

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Use should dictate gear!

There was a published test of several rifles and differing types of ammo. The el cheapo Tula and Brown Bear ammo wore out barrels faster than comparable US made (American Eagle etc.).

Now then, you mentioned a Sport I. That features a melonite rather than hard chrome lined. A recent note from the former CO of the USAMTU advises that melonite barrels may be more accurate (we probably wouldn't notice-also note the MAY) than chrome lined, but aren't anywhere near as long lived.

Rapid fire speeds barrel wear by both gas and bullet friction erosion. As the temperature of the barrel rises, the erosion increases. While stainless tends to resist erosion better than unlined chrome-moly barrels, it tends to lose accuracy suddenly. No gentle wear and slowly increasing group sizes, just sudden loss of accruacy.

The advantage of hard chrome lining of barrels is that it's about twice as hard as the base metal it's bonded to. It resists both gas and friction erosion much longer than a bare or melonite treated barrel. The bean counters at my former employer (retired) forced plain barrels on us for awhile. In the CQB training segment, we proved you can indeed burn out barrels in semi-auto fire. Back to hard chrome lined.

Given the ammo you've used and the type of shooting and cleaning you've done, I expect your current barrel is toast. That said, thorough cleaning has restored accuracy to a good many barrels. Ultra sonic cleaning can help here. [So can plugging the bore and the gas tube and fill the bore with Hoppes, soak 24 hours.] Somewhere I've got a picture of a sectioned M1 barrel with the rifling gone for about 8 inches forward of the chamber. Despite this (and the firing of about 80,000 rounds-it was used for arsenal ammunition accuracy acceptance testing) it still shot militarily acceptable groups.

Shot 1 rd and pulled the rope thru. shot 10 more and pulled the rope thru.

First rd hit 18" off at 7 o'clock. Slowly brought hit to about 3". Could not adjust any closer. Tried over adjusting but not even getting acceptable groups. Rds were clean(not keyholing).

Brought it home and cleaned and inspected. Bolt seemed loose in carrier. Could that cause inaccuracies? Flash suppressor came loose. That could have caused problems. Going to the range tomorrow(Sunday). for another test.

Got the 18" barrel for AR #2 and replaced old barrel. Got new scope for it, too. SO, had 2 AR's with new SS barrels and scope. M&P got the 4-16X50 scope and #2 AR got the new 6-24X50 scope. Could not adjust either rifle satisfactorily. hits were all over the place. I think it's me. Maybe I can blame it on the scope.

The flash suppressor acts as the muzzle. If it's loose, your groups will be loose-or non-existant.