I just read a study conducted by Stag Arms that concluded that there are no signs of accuracy/stability issues with a 1:9 twist up to 75 grain..

but once you start firing off 80's, that is when issues can be seen etc..

Again it is not that a 1:9 can't stabilize a 75 gr bullet it is that sometimes it won't.

__________________
Use should dictate gear!

sorry for going off subject, but WVsig.. I seen your post in the ammo section..
"Perfecta is available locally here in NC at Wally World. $14.94 for a box of 50. $15.94 with tax so $.32 a round. Not bad for lower volume purchasing of brass cased 55gr ammo."

anyway, Yesterday I happen to be at walmart and the price still stands.. picked up a box for the exact price you mentioned (well with a few cents anyway), good deal man! thanks!

No offense, but if the majority of the rifles that I made were 1:9 twist, I would tell you the same thing. Interesting though they chose a 1:8 twist for their gun they made for 3 gun comps... the 3G model...

Look at independent test and what shooters have experienced... Here's an example. This is from a user named Molon on another forum...

I can tell you that the 70 grain TSX is not adequately stabilized from a 16" Colt HBAR with a 1:9" twist. At 50 yards, it will produce a tight 10-shot group, but by 100 yards the group has greatly expanded and key-holing is evident.











I can also tell you that a 10-shot group of the 75 grain A-MAX fired from the same 1:9" twist barrel at a distance of only 25 yards looks more like a shot-gun pattern than a group.

And conversely..
If i was the seller of an over priced AR with a 1:7 twist, I would tell folks a 1:9 wont work with 75 gain ammo.. It goes both ways, is what I am a saying.

Many 1:7 twist AR15s are not over priced. PSA, Aero & Adams Arms etc... all make affordable AR15s with a 1:7 twist.

They are not telling anyone that 1:9 will not work with 75gr bullets. There is enough info out there that informed shooters know that they are taking a chance shooting heavy bullets with that twist rate.

Again it is not that it won't it is that many will not and you will not know which one you bought until you shoot it.

__________________
Use should dictate gear!

can you back that up with any independent studies?

Either way, the poll clearly shows that most people prefer the sport II, 1:9 twist and all..
and if you then surf the Ammo section, you will see that by FAR! most people are primarily interested in affordable 55 grain ammo..

what the tells us, is that most people, really don't care about the twist rate and the fact that the sport II has a 1:9 rate..

the "75 and UP grain" folks are pretty much a small niche in the grand scheme of things..

You must have missed where I said to read independent tests and talk to other shooters. See what different types of shooters are using and why. What are the 3 gun shooters using? What are the high power match guys using? What are long distance guys shooting? What are the tactical, run and gun guys using... I bet you will find different groups of shooters using different twists and loads. To steal a tagline "Use should dictate gear"

Have you shot 75 gr ammo in your rifle? If so, did it work? Did it produce good groupings at 100 yards? 200 yards?

No.. Not yet..

Have you shot 75 grain ammo through a sport II???

Winner Winner Chicken Dinner! I am so glad that someone understands what the OP is trying to accomplish.

THERE IS NO ONE SIZE FITS ALL BEST RIFLE FOR EVERYONE!

There are tons of good rifles out there are all different price points with all different features and setups. The "best" is very much a subjective preference that IMHO should be based on USE.

Far too often people do not know what they want the rifle to do. They don't know what role they are buying it for. They don't know what type of rounds they will be shooting they just know they want an AR15.

What purpose and how are you using the AR15 you are purchasing is the primary question one should be asking? Not what is the best AR15. Which one should I get. Only after you answer that question can you start to choose the right rifle for you. Also don't forget to ask yourself what do you want my rifle to look like. Most of the changes we see on AR15s are cosmetic and have little to do with function.

That is the point of the OP. Some people understood it. Some people did not. There is not single right answer the right answer is variable based on a huge set of subjective criteria. That is why I have not answer the poll because honestly depending on the buyer their needs, wants and use you will get a different answer.

I personally have 3 that I think will serve most peoples needs with a lot of flexibility built in but I wills save that for another post.

__________________
Use should dictate gear!

correct.. but with some critical thinking and observation, one can easily predict what is MOST LIKELY what they want an AR for, and how they will use it.

as for the rest of the discussion, I think some people are WAY over thinking it, and complicating the matter..

you really need to step back and look at the bigger picture to understand..

again, the poll and the ammo section should tell you everything you need to know on percentages and most common usage...

what is the OP trying to accomplish?

the OP STILL has not participated in the poll, NOR has the OP answered his own questions..

that.. to me = Zero credibility, it all seems to be nothing more then for the OP to continue on with the thread which got locked..

also the OP will NEVER stop until folks either say they made a mistake buying the sport two, or other wise bow down to the All knowing.. seriously, this is ridiculous and really silly man..

the poll has already answered your questions, along with multiple pages of replies, but you will NEVER let it go, or accept the fact that some people may not agree with you..

No, what that tells us is that the poll was limited to S&W products and that folks were asked to choose a low price, medium price, and a high price and most folks chose a Sport at the low end. Had everyone followed the directions though, we should see somewhat equal total numbers in the medium range rifles and the high range rifles...

If people really didn't care about the 1:9 twist rate, we wouldn't have discussions about it all the time... you should have seen the teeth mashing and hand wringing when S&W changed from the 1:8 twist to the 1:9 in the Sport. People cared!

Yes, 75 gr and up is a small niche market that you obviously aren't in... so not sure why you have all the butt hurt over whether or not your rifle will stabilize a 75 gr round! If all you are planning to shoot is 55 gr and 62 gr LEAD projectiles, your 1:9 twist is fine. But don't be surprised if you find that it isn't as accurate with a 69 gr load... that is all I am saying. Again, my Sport is a 1:8 twist and at 100 yards, 77 gr Black Hills opened up to pie plate size groupings. 1:8 should stabilize that in theory, but in real world, nope... not that particular round out of my particular barrel.

sorry man, it is the Cry baby Sport II haters that are butt hurt..

So you have absolutely NO real world experience shooting 75 grain out of a sport II..

but your buddy said................. LOL!

Nope, don't have a Sport 2. Have the original Sport with the superior barrel, before they cheapened the rifle!

And even if I had shot it out of a Sport II and mine stabilized the round, it doesn't mean yours would!

Who are these Sport II haters? I haven't seen one on this forum yet... Well, maybe Disabled... but he is coming around.

BOOM!!!! THIS is EXACTLY what I have been trying to expose about Y'all!..

you are on your high horse with the (in your mind) far better sport (or other) and you can not STAND the fact that other people are Equally happy with their sport II, even with the 1:9 twist, it is eating you alive..

Which is why you (and a certain few, VERY few) others feel the need to find a way to downgrade the sport II EVERY chance you get..

HAHA! Wow... I really got under your skin with that comment, didn't I!

I don't downgrade the Sport II... but I don't think it is the best rifle produced either. It is what it is... simply an inexpensive, basic rifle made for the recreational shooter. Simple as that. They took a few shortcuts to get it to the price range, such as no heat shields in the hand guards and in the case of the original Sport, no forward assist or dust cover.

I like mine... I haven't even changed the cheesy handguards out on mine. I changed out the MBUS rear sight, slapped a cheap red dot on it and called it good!

Does it meet my needs? Yes! Does it have as good as specs as a Daniel Defense, Noveske, or Colt on paper? No. Does that matter with my use? Nope, not at all.

I used to be like you and got offended every time someone said the Sport wasn't as good as X. Then, somewhere down the line, and realized that they were right. It isn't the best built or spec'd rifle on the market, but at the price point, it is very hard to beat. But it only makes financial sense to buy it if it is configured the way you want... It doesn't make much sense to buy it and spend $200 more to free float it, when you could have bought the M&P 15T. Don't take it personally... your rifle does not define you.

I'm glad the Sport II, Ruger AR-556, and other rifles in that price point exist. The more black rifles in use, the harder to ban.

No, not at all man, it just proved (Showed others) my theory on the mentality of the folks steady downgrading the sport II..

And Trust me.. I am not in the least bit offended.. It just gets old when the same few folks constantly post the same thing over and over and over..

It's funny that I heard the opposite when I was thinking of buying a 1:9 twist rifle. They were considered the best choice for rounds up to 75gr then and it was widely said that they would have no issues with bullets that heavy. I think certain thinking becomes group think in the gun world. What was said before is opposed to what is said now. Unless I see hard data I'm going to rely on my own experience.

How about 500 yards? I've shot a lot at that distance with my bolt action .223 rifle. I've shot 1" groups at that distance with that rifle and 75gr ammo. My rifle shoots it best of all. But it also shoots light ammo well too. In my experience the "it must be 75gr or above to be accurate" crowd is a small segment of the market. And using terms like "recreational shooter" to describe people who don't own what you have leads people to think it is about not wanting to think that a rifle that sold for less is equal to your rifle. I don't know if the person who said that is like that or not but people wonder about the motivation of those who have a very similar rifle that isn't described as a "recreational" rifle.

Personally I think the desire to shoot match quality with an AR is an attempt to push the AR into a realm it wasn't designed for. If you want a long range accurate rifle get a bolt action. I understand the desire to be accurate but the difference between 75gr accuracy and 56gr accuracy isn't all that great. Not so long ago no one wanted to shoot 75gr bullets and no one wanted a 1:7 twist barrel. There was a widely held belief that a 1:7 twist rifle would not stabilize anything under 55gr. And there are reasons to shoot light weight ammo. It just doesn't make sense to shoot a p'dog with 75gr ammo. Yes that's a limited part of the AR world but so is long range target shooting. One look at an AR tells us it was never designed as a target rifle. It was designed as a high volume rifle similar to the AK's and the like. It was thought carrying lighter ammo was a good idea because soliders could carry more of it.

So to limit choices to 1:7 barrels for this one aspect of shooting a rifle in a way it wasn't designed to shoot seems pretty narrow minded. There are many reasons to own an AR. The best one is SD because that is what the rifle was designed for. And in that capacity my "recreational" 1:9 Sport will do very well with 62gr ammo or 55gr ammo. And that isn't a "recreational" role but it is the intended role of the AR. It was born a battle rifle and unless you have an AR that doesn't function you have an AR that will serve you well in that capacity.

Wow! AMEN!
From the bolt action remarks, Original intended purpose of the AR, "distance",SD!.. and the list goes on..
Huge thumbs up!

OK, I'm going to call BS right here... One MOA at 500 yards is 5 inches, and you claim 1"? Is your name Chris Kyle? And I am also betting that your 1:9 barrel on your bolt gun is longer than 16"... probably closer to a 20" barrel.

Never said anything like that... the gr doesn't equate to accuracy.


Comes straight from the S&W web page. If you are offended by that, guess you should take it up with S&W marketing...

Purpose: Home Protection, Hunting, Recreational Shooting

I'm thinking that they know their target market though...

It isn't always about match grade and accuracy. A projectile with more mass is sometimes wanted for hunting larger game than prairie dogs. And if you shoot a Barnes TSX projectile that is all copper, it may have the same mass as a lead round, but it is longer, thus requiring a faster twist to stabilize.


For the past 10 years, the 1:7 twist has been the rage. Why? Because that is what the military uses. We have more choices today in AR configs than we ever had. Folks didn't have a choice on twist rate back in the ArmaLite, Bushmaster, Colt (The A,B,C's of AR-15s) days. We also have more ammo selection. That is why there has been a push to other twist rates in civilian markets. I agree that for most, the 1:9 is fine and works well and covers a wide range of ammo.

Who said anything about limiting it to 1:7? Again, if you wish to shoot the longer projectiles, a 1:7 twist is more likely to stabilize those rounds than a 1:9... not saying that a 1:9 can't stabilize, but the chances are greater that the 1:9 won't stabilize the round out of a 16" or shorter barrel. Notice that some SD rounds like Hornady TAP list recommended twist rates of 1:7 to 1:9... that 1:9 is on the edge of the specs where 1:7 or 1:8 are more optimal...

Again, if you are hung up about "recreational shooter", talk to S&W... The rifle is marketed as a "Modern Sporting Rifle", not a people killing machine for home defense.

You and CJ do realize that the original intent was a 20" barreled rifle with an effective range of 500 meters for the military, right? And that twist rate was 1:12...

And nobody here even questioned the purpose of the rifle for SD...

There's a naysayer in every crowd. I was there. You weren't. And you're way off on the barrel length of my bolt action rifle. It's a 26" barrel.

I never said "you" did say that. I would have quoted you if I meant that to be about something you said. And you surely know there are people who think heavier means more accurate at distance because of less wind deflection. If you don't know why 75gr has become a fad I don't know what to say. Yes it has more killing capacity too. But it "is" more accurate at distance because the wind won't move it around as much.

I can use a .50 BMG for recreational shooting too. That doesn't mean it's all it is and when someone labelled the Sport II a recreational rifle that's what was implied - it was only a recreational rifle. Heck I could use a German Heavy Gustav as a recreational gun. Wow that would be fun. But it is certainly more than that too. Why call the Sport II a recreational gun except to denigrate it?

Gee it wasn't the "rage" when I bought my bolt action rifle. Most people said to avoid it unless you wanted to shoot nothing but heavy and long cartridges. It was said to not do well with lighter bullets. I can probably find those posts if pressed and if I feel like doing it.

So when you quoted S&W saying it was for "Home Protection" they meant what - protection against invading rabbits? Calling the Sport II a recreational rifle is like calling a Z01 Vette a grocery hauler. Sure it will haul few groceries but it will do so much more.

I don't want to argue with you. Pressuing people to get a 1:7, which is happening here, is more about "I bought the best choice" than anything else as far as I can see. And there's no winning a discussion with someone coming from that position so why try? Have a nice day.

Correct.. but you conveniently left out all but "Recreational Shooting".. Because the rest did not fit your narrative..

That said, can you name ONE AR brand, that does NOT also list "Recreational Shooting"???

And of course, you had to yet AGAIN, slide in a dig towards someone..

Just because you are in the minority here in the S&W Sport Section, Really should not give you special rights..
just saying..

Yeah I know that. And I know they changed it because getting that kind of accuracy wasn't easy with the 1:12 AR. Plus heavier bullets were more effective at longer ranges. I also know that many people in the shooting community latched onto the 1:9 to 1:7 twist rates for better accuracy. I did a LOT of research on that very issue before I bought my rifle. I've shot AR's at 500 yards too. It's easy enough to shoot minute of man but try shooting a 5" group on a regular basis. There are rifles that can do that. I own one.

And unfortunately someone here did imply the Sport II was only a recreational weapon. In fact I've seen that attitude here many times. If it fires bullets it will work as a SD weapon. And my Sport is very reliable. That's all that really matters.

They prefer the Sport II with the 1/9 twist because that's just how it's made. If they had a choice of another barrel for the same price as the 1/9, I bet they would pick the 1/7 twist. Some might choose the 1/8 twist. But, it just boils down to the Sport II is sold with the 1/9 barrel and people HAVE to accept it!

In the Poll. taken here on this site about what would you "Recommend" to a friend, overwhelmingly went with the straight up sport II VS all other options..
it wasn't a poll asking what do you prefer etc..

I have to ask why you take offense at the term "recreational weapon" or the term "recreational shooter".

When was the last time you shot your AR15 in self defense or in combat? When was the last time you fired your AR15 in a non recreational fashion?

I personally consider myself a recreational shooter. I take no offense from the term and mean none when I use it. Just because I am a recreational shooter does not mean I cannot defend myself with my AR15'of choice nor does that mean my choice of rifle is not up to the task.

__________________
Use should dictate gear!

No, I did not leave the others out to fit a narrative... it is marketed as a "Modern Sporting Rifle" to the recreational shooter. A hunter is a recreational shooter. If you do not make your living with your rifle, or are not deployed with your rifle, you are a recreational shooter!

And if all ARs are marketed to the recreational shooter, why are you so butt hurt about that label?

And again, this is not the S&W Sport section...nor am I in the minority. I own a Sport!

From the OP...

"Lets pretend there are 3 budgets. Low Medium and high.

Low: The gun, 5 extra mags & a basic red dot or basic optic coming in at $1000 or under.

Medium: The gun, 5 extra mags, duty ready red dot or duty ready scope with mount, maybe a trigger & sling $2,000 or under.

High: The gun, 10 extra mags, High end Red dot or Scope with mount, aftermarket trigger, sling and other do dads etc... $3,000+ "

Looks like you left out the medium and high budget because it doesn't fit your narrative...

You are making absolutely no sense what so ever man.. WOW!

Have you not already figured out how fundamentally flawed the poll AND follow up questioner post was?

Either way.. the sport II is in the lead by a mile.. .

EDIT to add. I have reviewed the multiple choices people have made.. and it does in fact come down to. the sport II being the most popular choice of what folks would recommend to a friend..
now when I say fundamentally flawed in reference to the poll, that is because of the VERY hypothetical, and WIDE range of options for Low-Medium-high..
P.S.. My Narrative is mathematical Facts.. numbers never lie.. their is an algorithm here, if you recognize it..

Ok, so surely you can see how a 26" barrel with a 1:9 twist is more likely to stabilize a longer projectile than a 16", 1:9 twist. More rotations of the projectile and higher velocity... I'm still not buying a 1" group at 500 yards with .223... That is world class shooting...



Again, "Modern Sporting Rifle"... that denotes recreation. Most shooters are recreational shooters. Yes, you can use the rifle for defensive purposes, but that does not change the fact that you are a recreational shooter... Are you deployed with your rifle? Are you using a rifle on a daily basis in a professional capacity?



We aren't talking about bolt rifles. The rage for 1:7 twist in AR-15 rifles has been a thing for many years. The public wants what GI Joe has... doesn't matter if they are going to use the feature to it's fullest or not. Same thing applies to full auto bolt carrier vs. semi auto, or 4150 barrel steel vs. 4140. Some people may have an application or use that would find those things beneficial, but many do not. Again, use should dictate gear.



Again, are you deployed with your rifle? Do you use your rifle in a professional capacity? If not, you are a recreational shooter and the M&P 15 Sport, as well as many others, are marketed as such.

I don't think anyone is pressuring anyone to get a 1:7... but if you want to shoot rounds that are longer than the typical 55 gr or 62 gr, there is no downside to choosing a rifle with a faster twist rate than 1:9, outside of price of the rifle maybe.

Ok, I will give you that the poll is flawed... since there really is only one choice that gets you a rifle, extra mags, and a red dot for less than $1000... and that is the Sport. Like I posted, I would be looking at the Sport or the 15T, and the 15T with magazines pushed it to the $1000 limit.

But, the instructions were not followed... many people did not select a rifle at the mid price budget, or the high end.... and you can't tell me that if money were no object, people would get the Sport over some of the other offerings! I mean, c'mon... who wouldn't rather have the VTAC II over the Sport? Now, if I am paying VTAC II money though, I am probably going with something entirely different.

So I guess we can agree that the Sport is the winner for the lower priced tier... But if I have $2000 or more to spend on the rifle and accessories, I'm probably not looking at S&W.

Why does this dude care? I mean, really, why? Whats the argument? Sport II is bad? So don't buy one, drive on. The preaching is kind of ridiculous. I think I a Hi Point is a piece of junk. Thousands would disagree. I think that, but I'm not out to try and convince the world of it.

Not me, but to each their own. all good..

Most of the time I am going to advise that they go shoot it, and shoot it a lot... come back with questions once they know what they want and understand why.

Yeah, I definitely agree with this!

Ok, fair enough. The recommended AR-15 is the Sport II, with a 1/9 twist barrel. It is sold with a 1/9 twist barrel, which I would NEVER recommend to ANYONE! A 1/7 barrel, yes. A 1/8 barrel, yes. That's my choice and it's what I would recommend.
And, there are some bashers on here as well. I admit to bashing the Sport II. And, I would also buy the Sport II. But, there are some Sport II fanboys on here too. And, you know whom you are, "2nd" to none.

There it is. I could have spent a lot more on a rifle if I wanted. I bought the Sport. I know value when I see it. BTW why didn't you spend a little more and get a really good rifle? Accuracy International makes much better stuff than any AR on the market.

AI AX Rifle .260: 24" OM FB 0S- OD Green - Mile High Shooting Accessories

Correct.. I purchased a S&W Sport II because I liked it, and I am a Fan..
Then.. I ran across a site with a S&W Sport section.. so I joined the site.. for friendly discussion, perhaps some questions, info etc..

None of this should surprise you..

Now.. The mockery of my user name, is pretty pathetic..
unless you are ANTI 2nd amendment?

P.S.. "FanBOYS" I see as a sort of insult..
I suggest you stop with that..

EDIT. I wonder if some folks might just be getting offended by my Avatar pic? hummmm

"This board exists for communication about shooting, owning, collecting, studying, understanding, and enhancing all things pertaining to Smith & Wesson."

that includes the Sport II..

Just because some people do not agree with doing so, or feel people should have purchased something else, is irrelevant..

There what is? I said "But if I was spending $2000, I wouldn't be looking at S&W"... Helps to quote the whole sentence, not just a piece of it.

But if I were spending $2000, I would probably be looking at building, because if I was spending that much, I want it exactly the way I want... no changing of furniture or anything. Even the VTAC II is not exactly how I would like it out of the box for that kind of money.

Gentlemen,

Knock off the bickering.

Stay on topic.

As far as twist rate...

I shoot mostly M855 and M193. 1/9 and 1/7 work fine. Generally speaking, quality of the barrel trumps twist rate.

However, when considering the margins like 45gr and 77gr, I'd tell the friend to consider the more applicable twist rate.

I'm with the above. Most folks buying a Sport II are also buying less expensive 55gr stuff. Actually, I've never shot anything but 55 gr out of any AR I've owned in the last 14yrs. But... thats the market for that gun. If I was invested enough to the degree that I had a viable use for a heavier bullet, I'd likely know that and gear up accordingly.

On the other side of that, whats a barrel run? 200? or so? When I bought my Sport, I knew if there was ever any reason to want a different barrel, then I could rebarrel this down the road and still have $725 in the gun (excluding any accessories).