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View Poll Results: Which 3 S&W M&P do you recommend and why...?
M&P®15 Sport™ II 25 46.30%
M&P®15 SPORT II™ with MAGPUL® MOE® M-LOK® 8 14.81%
M&P®15 SPORT™ II Optics Ready 5 9.26%
M&P®15T Tactical with M-LOK® 14 25.93%
M&P®15X with M-LOK® 1 1.85%
M&P®15 MOE SL® Mid Magpul® Spec Series™ 2 3.70%
M&P®15 TS 2 3.70%
M&P®15 MOE® Mid 2 3.70%
M&P®15 1 in 7" Twist 3 5.56%
M&P®15 VTAC® II Viking Tactics® 2 3.70%
Other 7 12.96%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 54. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-17-2017, 01:50 PM
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Default Friend wants an M&P AR15 rifle what advice do you offer.

So you have a friend who is looking to get his or her first AR15 and they want it to be a S&W M&P because they are familiar with the brand and what a high level of QC and a solid warranty.

They are new to AR15s but not necessarily new to shooting. They are looking for a multiple use gun. Something mainly for plinking at the range, maybe home defense, maybe casual gun games but just basic all around use.

They will want to get some accessories like a scope of some kind, extra mags, maybe a sling etc. They want quality stuff but they are not running out and buying an ACOG. At least not right away.

Lets pretend there are 3 budgets. Low Medium and high.

Low: The gun, 5 extra mags & a basic red dot or basic optic coming in at $1000 or under.

Medium: The gun, 5 extra mags, duty ready red dot or duty ready scope with mount, maybe a trigger & sling $2,000 or under.

High: The gun, 10 extra mags, High end Red dot or Scope with mount, aftermarket trigger, sling and other do dads etc... $3,000+

Feel free to answer for all three price point options or just the one that interests you. What guns, optics and mags do you recommend and why? What questions do you ask your friend to help you help them? If you have gone through this process on your own or with help how did you do it?

Lets stick to M&P AR15s no Colt, BCMs, Aero, PSA, Andersons, Noveske etc...
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Old 02-17-2017, 02:22 PM
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For the lower price end, I would recommend the Sport 2 with Magpul MOE hand guard, or the M&P 15T with M-Lok. The Sport 2 is ready to go right out of the box and with the hand guard upgraded, nothing much to complain about for a basic carbine. I have not seen this model out in the wild, so this only makes sense if it does not cost more than the base line Sport plus the hand guard...

If they want free float, go with the 15T with M-Lok. Again, ready to go out of box. Also has the 1:8 twist, 5R barrel.

With the Sport, 5 mags, and a red dot, you can be under $1000, possibly well under depending on red dot.

The 15T and an extra 5 mags is going to put you near the $1000 line. Any red dot is going to push you over.

Above those, I jump straight to the top with the VTACII... free floated, mid length gas system, Geissele trigger, VLTOR stock, sling and light mount... all it needs is sights and optics of your choice.

Most of my friends would be served well by the first two choices.
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Old 02-17-2017, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by WVSig View Post
So you have a friend who is looking to get his or her first AR15 and they want it to be a S&W M&P because they are familiar with the brand and what a high level of QC and a solid warranty.
.
EASY to answer..a flat out, straight up regular sport II.. The end.. let them get it, then have fun swapping grips rails whatever..
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Old 02-17-2017, 03:12 PM
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EASY to answer..a flat out, straight up regular sport II.. The end.. let them get it, then have fun swapping grips rails whatever..
So, if your friend wanted a free floated rail and a barrel that was capable of stabilizing a TSX 69 gr round for a hog hunting rifle, you would suggest the Sport II?
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Old 02-17-2017, 04:15 PM
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Excellently phrased question WVSig.

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Originally Posted by WVSig View Post
Low: The gun, 5 extra mags & a basic red dot or basic optic coming in at $1000 or under.
The base M&P 15 Sport II Optics Ready. Absolutely no reason to get any other type. The new user who is on this budget is usually going to buy the cheapest optic anyway so, this will allow him to use his $50 red dot that's "just as good as an Aimpoint" and the iron sights won't get in the way. If he want's an MBUS set up, he's still in for under $1K with a set of UTG sights.

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Medium: The gun, 5 extra mags, duty ready red dot or duty ready scope with mount, maybe a trigger & sling $2,000 or under.
This user has a more realistic budget. Hands down he should get the M&P 15T Tactical with M-LOK. This rifle has everything he needs and nothing he doesn't. It comes with a good set of MBUS. If he want's a red dot the Trijicon MRO or Aimpoint H1 will give him the best and he's still under $2K. If he wants a magnified optic, the Vortex Viper PST Gen II 1-6x24 will likely be available for about $750. I also see used ACOGs for $900 or less all the time.


There is no point in the "High" tier. The user who is willing to spend $3K or more is not looking at an M&P15. Further, I've been around this stuff enough to know that what you're getting at that price range falls into the "boutique" range. I'm not saying guns at that price point aren't worth it. What I am saying is they don't perform significantly better; especially for a new shooter. If you're going to spend that much, you're also looking at an optic like a Vortex Razor HD II 1-6x 24 for about $2K or the Trijicon V-COG which falls in the $4K range.


Oh yeah, I almost forgot, there's also no reason to include magazines in the initial price. Those things are cheap and tend to accumulate on their own.
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Old 02-17-2017, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post

The base M&P 15 Sport II Optics Ready. Absolutely no reason to get any other type. The new user who is on this budget is usually going to buy the cheapest optic anyway so, this will allow him to use his $50 red dot that's "just as good as an Aimpoint" and the iron sights won't get in the way. If he want's an MBUS set up, he's still in for under $1K with a set of UTG sights.
Good point. You may have changed my mind!


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Oh yeah, I almost forgot, there's also no reason to include magazines in the initial price. Those things are cheap and tend to accumulate on their own.
What? No VTAC II for you Rastoff?
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Old 02-17-2017, 05:06 PM
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Well, in my opinion the basic M&P 15 Sport 2 is as good as you can have to start this hobby on a budget. It is a great gun right out of the box. Functions like it is supposed to, easy to operate, and accurate. Learn
to shoot the standard iron sights first, THEN buy the optic of your choice. I feel way too many folks don't want to learn how to shoot with iron sights, but that is a fundamentally basic skill everyone should master.
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Old 02-17-2017, 05:14 PM
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Well, in my opinion the basic M&P 15 Sport 2 is as good as you can have to start this hobby on a budget. It is a great gun right out of the box. Functions like it is supposed to, easy to operate, and accurate. Learn
to shoot the standard iron sights first, THEN buy the optic of your choice. I feel way too many folks don't want to learn how to shoot with iron sights, but that is a fundamentally basic skill everyone should master.
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I love that approach and often give that exact advice. Shoot a basic M4 style carbine with iron rights and then you can move to optics. Trigger time is with iron sights can help establish what you want from optics.

What if "budget" is not the issue. Say your friend has the means to buy what ever he wants. Do you see any advantages one of the other M&Ps as a starting point?


Quote:
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There is no point in the "High" tier. The user who is willing to spend $3K or more is not looking at an M&P15. Further, I've been around this stuff enough to know that what you're getting at that price range falls into the "boutique" range. I'm not saying guns at that price point aren't worth it. What I am saying is they don't perform significantly better; especially for a new shooter. If you're going to spend that much, you're also looking at an optic like a Vortex Razor HD II 1-6x 24 for about $2K or the Trijicon V-COG which falls in the $4K range.
This is a valid point. I guess I just included that tier because something like the VTAC is available and might have an appeal for a die hard S&W fan. I am not sure that a complete package including and optic that costs $3,000 is necessarily boutique. $1,500 factory rifle rifle, $1,000 sight and mount, $200 trigger ... you are a grip stock and a sling away from $3,000. There are a lot of $1,500 factory rifles but I get what you mean.
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Old 02-17-2017, 05:17 PM
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What? No VTAC II for you Rastoff?
[chuckles]Yeah, I seem to be on the save-by-spend plan. I refuse to total what I've spent on my AR. I seem to be keeping some businesses in business all by myself.

So no pre-made guns for me. Buy em one part at a time I say, but that wasn't one of the choices.
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Old 02-17-2017, 05:24 PM
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[chuckles]Yeah, I seem to be on the save-by-spend plan. I refuse to total what I've spent on my AR. I seem to be keeping some businesses in business all by myself.

So no pre-made guns for me. Buy em one part at a time I say, but that wasn't one of the choices.
Totally understand that approach but I was trying to keep it within the S&W world.
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Old 02-17-2017, 05:37 PM
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Totally understand that approach but I was trying to keep it within the S&W world.
Yep, that's why I didn't mention it before.

Also, regardless of the money, the Sport II Optics Ready really is a good first AR. It's not expensive. It comes with a lifetime warranty. Quality reports show that it's reliable and they've sold bunches of them (maybe not the OR version). And in this configuration, it's super easy to upgrade.
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Old 02-17-2017, 05:57 PM
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Is this all completely hypothetical ?
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Old 02-17-2017, 06:10 PM
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[chuckles]Yeah, I seem to be on the save-by-spend plan. I refuse to total what I've spent on my AR. I seem to be keeping some businesses in business all by myself.

So no pre-made guns for me. Buy em one part at a time I say, but that wasn't one of the choices.
I didn't tell my wife, how much I spent on my first AR build ($1800+) before optics. I did put the paperwork in the case, in case I expired & she needed to sell it. Then she wanted an AR. I said "I won't spend as much on yours"...........and she said why not? So I built two more (also bought a part at a time). One a 300 Blackout, and a hydro dipped "muddy girl" for her. Went a bit cheaper with different Geissele triggers, but not too much cheaper. Number four is in the works. I'm going to dip part of this one, since the Muddy Girl turned out so well, and has held up.

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Old 02-17-2017, 06:12 PM
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Yep, that's why I didn't mention it before.

Also, regardless of the money, the Sport II Optics Ready really is a good first AR. It's not expensive. It comes with a lifetime warranty. Quality reports show that it's reliable and they've sold bunches of them (maybe not the OR version). And in this configuration, it's super easy to upgrade.
I wonder what the difference is between it and the standard OR model, other than the nitrated barrel vs. chrome lined, and the integral trigger guard vs. the standard...

There is a huge delta in MSRP between these two rifles. I know MSRP isn't real world pricing though... when I bought my Sport I, it and the OR were pretty close in price.
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Old 02-17-2017, 06:18 PM
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I didn't tell my wife, how much I spent on my first AR build ($1800+) before optics. I did put the paperwork in the case, in case I expired & she needed to sell it. Then she wanted an AR. I said "I won't spend as much on yours"...........and she said why not? So I built two more (also bought a part at a time). One a 300 Blackout, and a hydro dipped "muddy girl" for her. Went a bit cheaper with different Geissele triggers, but not too much cheaper. Number four is in the works. I'm going to dip part of this one, since the Muddy Girl turned out so well, and has held up.
One of my greatest fears is that when I die my wife is going to sell off all of my guns for what I told her I paid for them. LOL
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Old 02-17-2017, 06:21 PM
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Is this all completely hypothetical ?
Pretty much but I do have a friend who I am going to be shooting with later this month who is looking for his first AR15 and mentioned the Sport II.
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Old 02-17-2017, 07:05 PM
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I would recommend a Sport II for the low budget person and iron sights. Work the rifle as it is and figure out what may or may not be wanted or needed later. Too many people got right to the optics from the gate when they need to learn the rifle first.

For the next two tiers, a free floated rifle with a better trigger (assuming they did not get a decent trigger out of the box), preferably with a mid length gas system. I would again, suggest sticking with iron sights at first.

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Old 02-17-2017, 07:08 PM
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Would love to recommend any one of the M&P 15's to a friend, but as it stands now they're all illegal here. They have to be either featureless, or come with some type of mag lock other then the bullet button which is no longer allowed to get around Assault Rifle registration.
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Old 02-17-2017, 08:35 PM
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I didn't vote in the poll because I think that's taking the wrong approach. I think your friend needs to make a list of what features are important to him and then look at the guns that match all or most of those features, or are cost effective if changes need to be made.

Upper receiver - Flat top (optics) or fixed carry handle (A1 or A2).
Barrel length.
Barrel twist.
Barrel profile.
Barrel material or lining.
Barrel/forend configuration (standard handguards or free float tube).
Gas block/front sight tower.
Buttstock, primarily buffer tube style (carbine or rifle).
Furniture (CAR, M4, A2 rifle, Magpul, etc.)

Once your friend has determined what specs he wants for the above features, or whether any have more than one acceptable spec, then he can make a better choice from the available M&P 15 guns, or even other makes.
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Old 02-17-2017, 09:37 PM
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On the low - the cheapest version of the Sport II (except Compliant when not required) that they can get. Can change out all the junk at their leisure. Will shoot those bulk 55gr that they will likely buy (me) all day. A couple years ago, I'd say the Core 15 Tac UL II, but those are gone now.

For mid and high, I'm not buying a S&W. Sorry.
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Old 02-17-2017, 09:48 PM
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id buy a colt 6920
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Old 02-17-2017, 09:49 PM
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So, if your friend wanted a free floated rail and a barrel that was capable of stabilizing a TSX 69 gr round for a hog hunting rifle, you would suggest the Sport II?
NONE of that was part of the question - equation..

"""So you have a friend who is looking to get his or her first AR15 and they want it to be a S&W M&P because they are familiar with the brand and what a high level of QC and a solid warranty.

They are new to AR15s but not necessarily new to shooting. They are looking for a multiple use gun. Something mainly for plinking at the range, maybe home defense, maybe casual gun games but just basic all around use. """

Do you see anything in his post related to free floating rails, Barrels capable of stabilizing a TSX 69 gr round for a hog hunting???
I don't?

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Old 02-17-2017, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Pro2nd View Post
NONE of that was part of the question - equation..

"""So you have a friend who is looking to get his or her first AR15 and they want it to be a S&W M&P because they are familiar with the brand and what a high level of QC and a solid warranty.

They are new to AR15s but not necessarily new to shooting. They are looking for a multiple use gun. Something mainly for plinking at the range, maybe home defense, maybe casual gun games but just basic all around use. """

Do you see anything in his post related to free floating rails, Barrels capable of stabilizing a TSX 69 gr round for a hog hunting???
I don't?
Multiple use gun... I wanted a rifle I could hunt with, plink with, use for HD... The point was that it isn't "easy", get the cheapest one type of an answer. You said to let your friend swap out rails, I say get a rifle closer to the configuration he wants to begin with.
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Old 02-17-2017, 10:32 PM
shawn mccarver shawn mccarver is offline
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I look at two options for this sort of question:

"Value" option: M&P15 Sport II.

"Top Tier" option: Colt LE6920 with Aimpoint.

Either rifle should get at least a dozen of the latest generation 30 round Magpul magazines, a decent sling, am LED white light, and PLENTY of ammo.
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Old 02-17-2017, 10:36 PM
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Multiple use gun... I wanted a rifle I could hunt with, plink with, use for HD... The point was that it isn't "easy", get the cheapest one type of an answer. You said to let your friend swap out rails, I say get a rifle closer to the configuration he wants to begin with.

Again..
""They are looking for a multiple use gun. Something mainly for plinking at the range, maybe home defense, maybe casual gun games but just basic all around use""


no mention of hunting..

from what I read in the description of what the friend ask, I would assume he already has what he prefers for Hunting (if I knew he was a hunter).. Which.. if it were a friend.. I would in fact already know that information, and the fact that he did not specifically ask about hunting with it, I would rule that out as something he "Mainly" wants to use it for, and move that into the not even Likely as something he wants to use it for..

Typically, someone will have something in mind when it comes to purchasing a weapon of any variety.. Be it home defense, S H T F situation, plinking for fun, competition etc..

It shouldn't be difficult to tell what their main intentions/want of use for a particular weapon is, especially f it is a friend..

Anyway, the general description of what "The friend" ask to me, says he is interested in the AR's, but generally speaking, just wants one for casual fun use.. He is obviously not into competition shooting, nor is he likely interested in getting one for a hunting riffle.. He pretty much just wants to jump on the AR band wagon.
So with that in mind, and not knowing if he is even going to like the platform, how it feels yada yada, I would suggest the Sport II in its basic out of the box form., as it should be sufficient for what I would personally feels he wants one for.. again, going by the description of what the friend said..

I would not however, suggest going with anything that cost a penny more, as far as a better stock blah blah.. again, due to not knowing if he is even going to like the general platform to begin with..

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Old 02-17-2017, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
[chuckles]Yeah, I seem to be on the save-by-spend plan. I refuse to total what I've spent on my AR. I seem to be keeping some businesses in business all by myself.

So no pre-made guns for me. Buy em one part at a time I say, but that wasn't one of the choices.
I have built (2) AR's in the past, and currently own (2) entry level AR's. I am also in the process of building a new AR, (1) part at a time. So far I have a $50 Anderson lower, a MAGPUL MBUS Gen 2 rear sight, and the BCG from my AR-556 (The AR-556 has a no logo Premium BCG in it).
cyphertext opened my eyes about how important the BCG is. Do your homework in this area. Just because it cost a lot, or, has a big name pinned onto it doesn't mean it's as good as a $60 Anderson, or, a $80 PSA Premium.
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Old 02-18-2017, 12:07 AM
Brian in Oregon Brian in Oregon is offline
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Again..
""They are looking for a multiple use gun. Something mainly for plinking at the range, maybe home defense, maybe casual gun games but just basic all around use""


no mention of hunting..

from what I read in the description of what the friend ask, I would assume he already has what he prefers for Hunting (if I knew he was a hunter).. Which.. if it were a friend.. I would in fact already know that information, and the fact that he did not specifically ask about hunting with it, I would rule that out as something he "Mainly" wants to use it for, and move that into the not even Likely as something he wants to use it for..

Typically, someone will have something in mind when it comes to purchasing a weapon of any variety.. Be it home defense, S H T F situation, plinking for fun, competition etc..

It shouldn't be difficult to tell what their main intentions/want of use for a particular weapon is, especially f it is a friend..

Anyway, the general description of what "The friend" ask to me, says he is interested in the AR's, but generally speaking, just wants one for casual fun use.. He is obviously not into competition shooting, nor is he likely interested in getting one for a hunting riffle.. He pretty much just wants to jump on the AR band wagon.
So with that in mind, and not knowing if he is even going to like the platform, how it feels yada yada, I would suggest the Sport II in its basic out of the box form., as it should be sufficient for what I would personally feels he wants one for.. again, going by the description of what the friend said..

I would not however, suggest going with anything that cost a penny more, as far as a better stock blah blah.. again, due to not knowing if he is even going to like the general platform to begin with..
By that criteria, get either a Sport II or the upcoming Sport II optics ready model. I think those are the best bang for the buck. If he then decides to get more involved in AR15s, then he can use the short checklist I posted above.
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Old 02-18-2017, 01:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Pro2nd View Post
Again..
""They are looking for a multiple use gun. Something mainly for plinking at the range, maybe home defense, maybe casual gun games but just basic all around use""


no mention of hunting..

from what I read in the description of what the friend ask, I would assume he already has what he prefers for Hunting (if I knew he was a hunter).. Which.. if it were a friend.. I would in fact already know that information, and the fact that he did not specifically ask about hunting with it, I would rule that out as something he "Mainly" wants to use it for, and move that into the not even Likely as something he wants to use it for..

Typically, someone will have something in mind when it comes to purchasing a weapon of any variety.. Be it home defense, S H T F situation, plinking for fun, competition etc..

It shouldn't be difficult to tell what their main intentions/want of use for a particular weapon is, especially f it is a friend..

Anyway, the general description of what "The friend" ask to me, says he is interested in the AR's, but generally speaking, just wants one for casual fun use.. He is obviously not into competition shooting, nor is he likely interested in getting one for a hunting riffle.. He pretty much just wants to jump on the AR band wagon.
So with that in mind, and not knowing if he is even going to like the platform, how it feels yada yada, I would suggest the Sport II in its basic out of the box form., as it should be sufficient for what I would personally feels he wants one for.. again, going by the description of what the friend said..

I would not however, suggest going with anything that cost a penny more, as far as a better stock blah blah.. again, due to not knowing if he is even going to like the general platform to begin with..
The point is that you stated the Sport II "the end"... As if to indicate that there is no other choice for any use... and I don't agree.

If this friend shows you a picture of a free float barrel and says that he wants that, would you push the Sport II? What if he says he wants a red dot and doesn't want to see the front sight tower in the view of the optic? These uses would fit the narrow description of mainly plinking, maybe home defense, maybe games.

Notice, you already said "let them have fun swapping grips, rails, whatever", so you are going to lead your friend into purchasing a rifle with the idea he can change stuff later, rather than showing him the rifle that already has the Magpul forend, or already has a free float barrel, etc.
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Old 02-18-2017, 01:26 AM
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I wonder what the difference is between it and the standard OR model, other than the nitrated barrel vs. chrome lined, and the integral trigger guard vs. the standard...

There is a huge delta in MSRP between these two rifles. I know MSRP isn't real world pricing though... when I bought my Sport I, it and the OR were pretty close in price.
I should probably look up the specs before I post this, but that never stopped me in the past. I'll bet the only difference between the Sport II and Sport II OR is changing the front sight to a sight height gas block.
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Old 02-18-2017, 01:39 AM
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When I say, "No pre-made guns for me" I mean...



...I build mine.
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Old 02-18-2017, 01:41 AM
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I should probably look up the specs before I post this, but that never stopped me in the past. I'll bet the only difference between the Sport II and Sport II OR is changing the front sight to a sight height gas block.
Yep, I'm more wondering about differences in the Sport II OR and the original OR... The barrels are different profile and the OR is chrome lined, but is that it?

The Sport II OR has a MSRP of $719... The original OR MSRP is $1069. That would be one expensive barrel! The internals must be different for such a price difference...
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Old 02-18-2017, 02:01 AM
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Yep, I'm more wondering about differences in the Sport II OR and the original OR... The barrels are different profile and the OR is chrome lined, but is that it?
That is the eternal question in the gun world, isn't it? We constantly have these discussions about why one thing has a higher price tag when it seems the same on the surface.

Why is a Daniel Defense $1K more than a S&W? In the end, for most shooters, there really isn't that much difference. And you DO have to take shooter experience into account. Only a small percentage can actually use that tool to its very limits. Most will do just as well with a Sport II.

Without exaggeration, there were hundreds of manufacturers at the Shot Show making some AR or AR gadget. They're all trying to make their product stand out. Very few had anything really new or different. Almost none had something that was really better.
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Old 02-18-2017, 02:03 AM
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When I say, "No pre-made guns for me" I mean...



...I build mine.
Right on! good friend of mine machines some of his own parts as well, (builds custom Picatinny Rail etc)..
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Old 02-18-2017, 10:57 AM
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That is the eternal question in the gun world, isn't it? We constantly have these discussions about why one thing has a higher price tag when it seems the same on the surface.
It is. It was so much simpler when they just left the forward assist and dust cover off....

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Why is a Daniel Defense $1K more than a S&W? In the end, for most shooters, there really isn't that much difference. And you DO have to take shooter experience into account. Only a small percentage can actually use that tool to its very limits. Most will do just as well with a Sport II.
At least with DD vs Smith, there are differences listed in the specs.... barrel steel, full auto bolt carrier, receiver extensions made of different alloys, etc... While we can discuss the merits of these differences and whether or not they make any real world difference to a shooter, they are there and they do cost more.

With the Sport OR vs the OR, barrel steels are the same. Alloys for receivers are the same (at least as far as I know). Perhaps the internals are different? Maybe the Sport no longer shares the same bolt as the rest of the line? Perhaps FCG is different as well?
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Old 02-18-2017, 11:04 AM
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Perhaps the internals are different? Maybe the Sport no longer shares the same bolt as the rest of the line? Perhaps FCG is different as well?
Perhaps it's just marketing?
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Old 02-18-2017, 11:23 AM
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Perhaps it's just marketing?
Perhaps. I could see marketing trying to squeeze a couple of hundred by playing the OR as "premium"...

One interesting note... when I purchased my Sport I, I could have purchased the OR for about the same price. I chose the Sport because of the 1:8 twist, 5R rfling (marketing)...

Today, a Sport rifle sells for $525, yet the OR sells for $789 (grabagun used for prices)... right where it was many years ago.
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Old 03-01-2017, 09:48 AM
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Perhaps. I could see marketing trying to squeeze a couple of hundred by playing the OR as "premium"...

One interesting note... when I purchased my Sport I, I could have purchased the OR for about the same price. I chose the Sport because of the 1:8 twist, 5R rfling (marketing)...

Today, a Sport rifle sells for $525, yet the OR sells for $789 (grabagun used for prices)... right where it was many years ago.
I would guess a lot has to do with economy of scale that the Sport II configuration brings to the table. When you produce so many more units of a particular configuration you can squeeze every penny out of it.

The OR for whatever reason simply has not sold enough to generate that type of scale.
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Old 03-01-2017, 11:26 AM
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Well here in Pa. we can't hunt with a semi., don't see any of my friends going to Camp Perry, and we are all too dang old to go to any "sandbox" in the wide wide world.................................

I bought my last Smith AR for about $1,100 in early 2013 before the prices spiked; it was a flat earth MOE I'd looked at before Christmas.......I like the magpul stocks and handguards....... so I'd take my friend to the range for the day ...... to the local gunshop(s) the next to see what he could 'fondle" . And encourage him to spend as much as he can to get the options he likes........ with enough left over for an Aimpoint PRO.


My guess is that an Sport II will meet the needs....... maybe not the wants.... of 95% of folks who buy a "modern sporting rifle"

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Old 03-01-2017, 12:51 PM
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Your "friend" is making a mistake limiting himself to one brand. Many players out there large and small. Savage and Springfield Armory are two newcomers with good reputations to the AR game.
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Old 03-01-2017, 01:12 PM
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Your "friend" is making a mistake limiting himself to one brand. Many players out there large and small. Savage and Springfield Armory are two newcomers with good reputations to the AR game.
Welcome to our little section of the forum... There is a reason why the discussion in the post is limited to just S&W. Mainly a follow up to the question of why people continue to buy Sports and change the configuration when they could have purchased the configuration they wanted in the first place... And if they friend just wants S&W, there are still a myriad of configurations to choose from that are close to what they may have wanted right out of the box.
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Old 03-01-2017, 03:20 PM
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Mainly a follow up to the question of why people continue to buy Sports and change the configuration when they could have purchased the configuration they wanted in the first place... .
That was PAINFULLY obvious to me.. LOL..

one thread gets locked, then this pops up (To be able to continue on).. LOL!..

P.s.. I see the OP still has not voted..
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Old 03-01-2017, 03:33 PM
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So, if your friend wanted a free floated rail and a barrel that was capable of stabilizing a TSX 69 gr round for a hog hunting rifle, you would suggest the Sport II?
I have a 1:9 twist rifle that stabilizes 75gr rounds just fine.

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Your "friend" is making a mistake limiting himself to one brand. Many players out there large and small. Savage and Springfield Armory are two newcomers with good reputations to the AR game
There isn't any reason not to limit the choices to S&W rifles. They have a great reputation and a great price. I have Savage rifles and I have a Springfield pistol. I love both of them. I also love my Sport. It's a great rifle and it sells for a very reasonable price. It's hard to beat that. I got my Sport before Savage got into the AR game and the same for SA. I don't regret buying what I did for one second. It's a super nice rifle and yes I changed some stuff. I spent less than $50 making it what I wanted. That doesn't count the sight of course but that's not part of the "buy what you want from the start" equation. I did buy what I wanted. I wanted a great rifle for a great price and I got it.

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Old 03-01-2017, 03:54 PM
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I have a 1:9 twist rifle that stabilizes 75gr rounds just fine.
Ok, nice sample of one... some 1:9 barrels will, and some won't. Generally speaking, the odds of getting a 1:9 barrel that won't stabilize a longer projectile are higher than getting one that will.
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Old 03-01-2017, 04:09 PM
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To me, the Sport II represents a very good value proposition.

I like to have the front sight for use with iron sights since it doesn't interefere with most optic/electronic sights in a co-witness configuration.

I also like the 1:9 twist because I shoot bullets between 45 and 62 grains.
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Old 03-01-2017, 04:16 PM
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To me, the Sport II represents a very good value proposition.

I like to have the front sight for use with iron sights since it doesn't interefere with most optic/electronic sights in a co-witness configuration.

I also like the 1:9 twist because I shoot bullets between 45 and 62 grains.
That makes sense you picked a rifle that meets your needs. Do you prefer absolute Co-witness or 1/3 co-witness?
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Old 03-01-2017, 04:20 PM
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Friend wants an M&P AR15 rifle what advice do you offer. Friend wants an M&P AR15 rifle what advice do you offer. Friend wants an M&P AR15 rifle what advice do you offer. Friend wants an M&P AR15 rifle what advice do you offer. Friend wants an M&P AR15 rifle what advice do you offer.  
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Originally Posted by cyphertext View Post
Ok, nice sample of one... some 1:9 barrels will, and some won't. Generally speaking, the odds of getting a 1:9 barrel that won't stabilize a longer projectile are higher than getting one that will.
I dont mean to some argumentative or whatever..

but is their any factual, proven, documented stats on this?
not just a random video of someone saying it etc, but an actual report showing the stats?

IE.. 200 1:9 twist barrel AR's were tested for stabilization of a longer projectile and it was found that.........

Last edited by Pro2nd; 03-01-2017 at 04:43 PM.
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Old 03-01-2017, 04:29 PM
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Friend wants an M&P AR15 rifle what advice do you offer. Friend wants an M&P AR15 rifle what advice do you offer. Friend wants an M&P AR15 rifle what advice do you offer. Friend wants an M&P AR15 rifle what advice do you offer. Friend wants an M&P AR15 rifle what advice do you offer.  
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I've done similarly with an acquaintance from the club

First was to have him handle my standard A2 rifle. Next a flattop. We went over the basics... kinda of a AR 101. Next step was to go down to Sportsman's Warehouse where they got a ton of ARs in most configurations to handle. Even though his AR knowledge was pretty thin, having just a bit of information under his belt allowed him to ask the sales guy some real good questions while I kept my mouth shut (I hate it when someone tries to barge into a conversation between a salesman and customer at a gun counter).

Anyway... he ended up selecting the equivalent of a S&W 15T. I think that was a good choice for him and generally in line with the scenario offered in the OP.

Generally speaking, I think a free float handguard and folding sights is a good general base configuration for those who are new to the AR world.

Last edited by ChattanoogaPhil; 03-01-2017 at 04:38 PM.
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  #48  
Old 03-01-2017, 04:54 PM
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Friend wants an M&P AR15 rifle what advice do you offer. Friend wants an M&P AR15 rifle what advice do you offer. Friend wants an M&P AR15 rifle what advice do you offer. Friend wants an M&P AR15 rifle what advice do you offer. Friend wants an M&P AR15 rifle what advice do you offer.  
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Originally Posted by cyphertext View Post
Ok, nice sample of one... some 1:9 barrels will, and some won't. Generally speaking, the odds of getting a 1:9 barrel that won't stabilize a longer projectile are higher than getting one that will.
Generally when you go over 72 gr in 1:9 twist 16" barrel there are a lot of variables which will come into play which will result in a stabilized or not stabilized bullet.

I am not an expert on the subject but my understanding is that weight, load, bullet profile, OAL and their interactions with an individual barrel all come into play at around 72 grs in a 1:9 barrel. Some will stabilize up to 75 gr some will not. Some will stabilize some 75 gr rounds and not others.

This is why people suggest if you are going to be shooting 72gr to 75gr and above on a regular basis you should get a 1:7 twist.

The 1:9 is a great twist if you like to shoot in the 45gr to 69gr window. This is why it is often recommended for recreational shooters. Most people blasting away at your local range are shooting 55gr ammo.

The other thing to consider is that the 1:7 16" barrel will shoot the 55gr range fodder with the same level of accuracy that the 1:9 will but will go up to the 90gr. So there is more of a spread but if you are shooting a lot of light 40gr to 45gr the 1:8 or 1:9 might shoot better for you.

In the end I agree that if you are shooting a lot of heavy bullets 75gr and above it makes sense to hedge your bets and get a 1:7 twist. There is no way to know until you shoot it if a 19 twist will stabilize your 75gr round of choice so why risk getting something not up to the designated task when there are barrels like 1:7 that will work.
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Last edited by WVSig; 03-01-2017 at 04:57 PM.
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  #49  
Old 03-01-2017, 04:59 PM
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Friend wants an M&P AR15 rifle what advice do you offer. Friend wants an M&P AR15 rifle what advice do you offer. Friend wants an M&P AR15 rifle what advice do you offer. Friend wants an M&P AR15 rifle what advice do you offer. Friend wants an M&P AR15 rifle what advice do you offer.  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil View Post
I've done similarly with an acquaintance from the club

First was to have him handle my standard A2 rifle. Next a flattop. We went over the basics... kinda of a AR 101. Next step was to go down to Sportsman's Warehouse where they got a ton of ARs in most configurations to handle. Even though his AR knowledge was pretty thin, having just a bit of information under his belt allowed him to ask the sales guy some real good questions while I kept my mouth shut (I hate it when someone tries to barge into a conversation between a salesman and customer at a gun counter).

Anyway... he ended up selecting the equivalent of a S&W 15T. I think that was a good choice for him and generally in line with the scenario offered in the OP.

Generally speaking, I think a free float handguard and folding sights is a good general base configuration for those who are new to the AR world.
I tend to agree that unless you really love the A2 front sight post a free floated AR15 with quality BUIS is a great starting point which allows greater flexibility to the owner at not much more than the A2 wight post guns.

But I also know there is still a lot of love for the A2 front post. I still like to shoot the old 6920 with irons sights.
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Old 03-01-2017, 05:22 PM
cyphertext cyphertext is offline
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Friend wants an M&P AR15 rifle what advice do you offer. Friend wants an M&P AR15 rifle what advice do you offer. Friend wants an M&P AR15 rifle what advice do you offer. Friend wants an M&P AR15 rifle what advice do you offer. Friend wants an M&P AR15 rifle what advice do you offer.  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pro2nd View Post
I done mean to some argumentative or whatever..

but is their any factual, proven, documented stats on this?
not just a random video of someone saying it etc, but an actual report showing the stats?

IE.. 200 1:9 twist barrel AR's were tested for stabilization of a longer projectile and it was found that.........
Yes, the military has tested this. Prior to the early 80's, the M16 had a 1:12 twist. Worked great with the 55 gr rounds that were standard issue.

Then, the military standardized on the M855 round. This was a 62 gr FMJ round with a steel penetrator. The 1:12 twist could not stabilize this round and it would start to tumble around 100 yards. So the military adopted 1:7 twist.

On the civilian side, as different ammo was produced in .223 and 5.56mm, most commercial manufacturers started going with the 1:9 twist. The 1:9 twist could stabilize a wide range of projectiles from light varmint loads to 69 grains. Then, we started seeing heavier match grade and long range rounds become available. Exotic defense rounds and hunting rounds such as Barnes TSX which are all copper and are longer than a comparable weighted lead projectile. Consumers found that many of the 1:9 twist barrels could not stabilize these rounds out past 50 or 100 yards... or even less, depending on barrel.

Of course, these are generalizations... sometimes, a barrel with a 1:9 twist will stabilize a particular round and another barrel by the same manufacturer won't. In my own shooting, I have found that my 1:8 twist Sport prefers the medium and lighter rounds... It didn't do well with 75 and 77 gr ammo that I tried.

So, you have a 1:9 twist. Go get you a box or two of those heavy pills and try it out. But don't shoot at just 100 yds or less and claim your rifle does just fine... stretch it out some and look for groups to open up and key holing.
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