I thought my home defense pistols would be enough !! Those thoughts have since changed and I find myself looking at AR's when I go into a gun store lately .. did today again ..

Only interested in these two models for my own reasons so please don't tell me I should buy so and so .. or I need to build my own .. I am not interested in what you have to say if you do .. I'm asking specifically about these two models !!

The two models I am interested in are the S&W AR15 Model 311041LE S&W M&P15T 16" Magpul Tactical and S&W AR15 Model 311001LE S&W M&P15T Troy Tactical ..

They both look to be the same AR except one has MagPul and the other Troy parts on them .. the MagPul even has a Troy forend on it same as the Troy Tactical has .. but the basic AR sees to be the same gun to me ..

Am I correct or are there differences because of my lack of knowledge I am not aware of ?? All the specs seem to be identical .. except for the sights maybe ..

Which one would you buy over the other ??

S&W has different SKU for LE dealer rifles and civilian rifles. From my understanding, the LE rifle is no different from the civilian rifle, just different SKU and different price point/discounts. With that said, those rifles that you have listed appear to not be in production any longer... the 15T rifles with Troy hand guards have been gone from the civilian catalog for several years now.

So, since you are only interested in those two rifles, not sure how we can help you. I think you are correct in the differences being one had S&W branded Troy BUIS, and the other has Magpul. Without spec sheets though, just guessing from pictures.

So, if you were interested in the newer model, it would be the M&P 15T Tactical with M-Lok...
M&P(R)15T Tactical with M-LOK(R) | Smith & Wesson

Really like the M-LOK handgaurd S&W fitted to the new 15T, nice and slim, and good looking to boot. Anyone know if you can buy the handguard on its own?

Thanks for the info !!

The spec sheets on both were Identical from what I could see the only difference was the sights .. so your saying both of these are older models?? That curious because they are on buds web sight ..

specs :

Model: M&P15 Caliber: 5.56 mm NATO / .223 Action: Gas Operated Semi Automatic Capacity: (1) 30 Round magazine Overall Length: 35" Extended / 32" Compacted Stock: 6-Position Telescopic Forend: 4-Sided, 10" Free-Float Modular Rail Forend (MRF) Sight Length: 15" Barrel Length: 16" Barrel Twist: 1 in 9" Weight (No Mag): 6.85 lbs. Trigger Pull: 7 lbs. (approx.) Upper/Lower Material: 7075 T6 Aluminum Barrel Material: 4140 Steel Chromed Components: Barrel Bore, Gas Key, Bolt Carrier Receiver and Barrel Finish: Hard Coat Black Anodized Front Sight: Adjustable, Folding Battle Sight Rear Sight: Adjustable, Folding Battle Sight - See more at: S&W M&P15T Troy Tactical 5.56NATO $0.00 SHIPS FREE

both are now being offered by Bud's

Yep... Here's the same rifle with the civilian catalog SKU... it is archived and no longer in production.

ARCHIVE: Model M&P15T Rifle | Smith & Wesson

I just noticed most of the new AR15s have a 1 in 8 barrel twist while these are 1 in 9 twist ..

What are the differences for this ?? does the 1 in 8 shoot lighter grain bullets in a tighter group ??

cyphertext thanks for the info .. appreciate you looking it up !

I do wonder why Bud's has them in their catalog if they are a couple of years old .. or wonder if they bought some old stock out of a warehouse some where is that possible .. or would Bud's still have stock that is that old ??

I would think all of these would have been sold by now if they are 2 years or older ..

No, the 1:8 twist allows you to shoot heavier bullets, 75 gr and up that may not stabilize in a 1:9 twist barrel. The 1:8 twist barrels are also salt nitrate treated barrels, where the 1:9 were chrome lined.

Here is another one for you to consider...
14.5" barrel with a fixed flash hider to bring it to 16"
1:7 twist, 4150 steel, chrome lined
Troy hand guard on this one too...

M&P(R)15 TS | Smith & Wesson

They could be new old stock, or perhaps S&W had parts so they produced them under the LE catalog, maybe contract over run? Hard to say. If you like those and the price is agreeable, no reason to not get one, but the M-Lok or Keymod hand guards are all the rage now.

Generally speaking the lower the twist rate the more variety of weight you can shoot. This DOES NOT mean you can't shoot 75gr in a 1/9. It only means that the higher twist rate is better at stabilizing the lower weight bullet. How much better depends on the bullet, the rifle and you. Typically it's not a big difference unless you are trying to win a competition. 75gr will not be as accurate as a 55gr in a 1/9 barrel. It will still put rounds where you aim, just not as accurate. Usually that difference will need to be measured to be seen. There might be an occasional flyer

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Thanks for the explanation on the twist rates !!

I am looking at target practice out to 150 to 250 yards .. 250 yards is the longest range where I shoot I think .. might be 300 not sure .. they opened 2 new ranges last fall .. but would shoot somewhere near that range .. .. and might use it as a varmint hunting rifle for coyotes and maybe some ground hogs .. have had a huge population of them the last few years tearing up the farmers fields and water ways ..

We have a pack of coyotes just to my south less then a mile .. we can hear the pups at night after they come back from a hunt some times .. and if the wind is from the south they sound very close ..

I have become very reluctant to leave my GSD in the back if we leave the house with out either me or my wife at home keeping tabs on her .. 2 years ago she was in the back and a coyote had jumped the fence and was moving toward her ..only the sound of the door slamming closed when I ran out to the back saved her she was just a pup then .. the coyote was running across the field in back and I couldn't get a shot off with my Compact ..

They are become more of a problem .. Young family just moved in down the road have 2 young children .. I warned them about the coyotes and the risks of not watching the 2 smaller kids .. they have chickens so they have a draw for them approaching the house area .. think I scared the young woman some .. and that was sorta my intention ..

Well I'd go with either but the best advice is see if one feels better in hand than the other. I have seen where some like a certain grip style or hand guard so pick them up and see if there is a difference if not what price is better.. it's really a personal choice really...

IF all you're worried about is coyotes a simple 30-30 lever action will be more than adequate

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For your intended uses, either one will fit the bill. Add a good scope, and you'll have the longer ranges covered. For ammo either the bulk 55 or 62 fmj's will work at the range. Critters are a different deal. There you're going to need to use a high quality 50-60gr HP varmint round. With an fmj, you run the risk of just wounding the yote, and it could be more dangerous than a healthly one.

__________________
Peace was my Profession

As I said I am interested in a S&W AR .. I didn't say anything about a 30-30 lever action ..

but thanks !!

Yes, you did. And I'll clean up the mess that followed as well.

Gentlemen, this is the M&P15 section.

If you can find one the original 15T would be my choice. Chrome lined barrel, troy hand guard ant S&W branded sights.

I have one of the original 15T Troy model rifles and would highly recommend it, bought mine new 10-12 years ago have
run thousands of rounds of everything from cheap steel 55gr to 77gr expensive ammo and it has run flawlessly. The longest distance I have been able to shoot is 300 meters and have had no problems ringing steel and punching holes in the paper.

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Is around 1100 a good price for the Troy Tactical ?? its suppose to have the chrome barrel bore and 1 in 9 twist, Troy 4-Sided, 10" Free-Float Modular Rail Forend .. Adjustable, Folding Battle Sight front and back ..

the Magpul Tactical is a couple hundred cheaper and has the same specs except the difference in the sights is the only difference I could find .. it has Folding Magpul (MBUS) front and back ..

I think either will suit my needs/wants .. I'm leaning toward the Magpul ..

Personally, I would go with the Magpul and spend the difference on ammo. Add another $100 or so and you'll be able to buy 1000 rds of bulk wolf gold.There are a couple of recent threads showing where you can get the deal on ammo. That will give you a real good start at the range.

__________________
Peace was my Profession

Here's a site that explains the effect of twist rates on bullet selection.

How Barrel Twist Rate Affects Ammunition Choice

I love my Mid MOE. It's been flawless, but if I were looking for one in that range, I'd have to give the new Savage Arms ARs a look. They're all 1:8 5R middies with nice furniture.

I don't know if they are readily available or bug free yet, though.

The LE price on the Model 311041LE S&W M&P15T 16" Magpul Tactical at Bud's is a good price for that rifle, if that is what you want. I personally would go with the newer version that I linked above, as I like a slimmer handguard then a quad rail, as well as the mid-length gas system and the 1:8 twist with 5R rifling.

May I ask what draws you to the two particular models you are looking at?

No particular draw .. Was looking at Tactical AR's by S&W .. these are just 2 S&W AR 15 tactical models I found that were considerably less in price then current models .. and these would fit my budget .. I'm not familiar enough with the AR platform to be able to build one presently .. I also considered doing that .. maybe in the future !!

I have read some articles on the twist rate and the effects on AR ammo .. and there is a lot that is contradictory ..

I see charts where the 1 to 9 twist shoots best with ammo at and below 55 grains .. then I have watched video that shows a S&W AR 15 shoot a 1.5 inch group at 100 yards with 62 grain ammo with the 1 to 9 twist .. better then one with 1 to 8 ..

So I really think a big factor is the AR being shot and the brand and weight of the ammo .. one makers 62 grain might shoot a good pattern while another's may be twice that group size ..

So is it really up to the individual AR being shot ?? and really a trial and error till you find the make and ammo that shoots best in your AR ??

Bingo... every barrel is different and will like a particular ammo better than others. The guides on twist rates are just that, guides.

The LE Magpul rifle at Bud's is about $100 less than the new M-Lok model... that's a hard price to beat. However, there are other S&W options that are even less, but they aren't "tactical" models.

So is there a set of features that you really want, or are you just looking at price?

I found this blog where a large number of different make and grain size was shot .. there at a couple of brands that are more accurate then other brands of the same grain size .. Thought it was interesting .. he took quite a bit of time to do all of the testing ..

Range Report - .223/5.56 Ammo Test (Pic HEAVY) - AR15.COM

I think more price with an AR with sights mounted and something to add an optic and light to in the future .. will first shoot with the sights .. and then decide what optic I will get .. probably not till next year ..

I have a budget I set aside for my use shooting each year and for ammo so would like to keep it with in a price range .. know that there are cheaper models but by the time you set it up like the tactical models you would end up probably paying more .. also since I don't have any gun smithing tools or a place to work on it .. and would need to have someone else do any work .. there are also some physical problems that might interfere .. I have a bad back where I can't do any push/pull force ..

Now if I win the Lotto ..

Do you have an AR ? may I ask what kind and the twist rate and ammo you use and do you hunt with it ??

Knowing some one else's experience could/would be helpful !!

I appreciate the help and info !!

Yes, I do. I have the original Sport. 1:8 twist with 5R rifled barrel that is treated with Melonite.

I hunt with it, but mostly for hog eradication. I use Brown Bear 62 gr soft points, or Remington "Hog Hammer" rounds with a 62 gr Barnes TSX projectile... These are good for hogs and deer here in Texas, and are cheaper than Black Hills with the same projectile.

interesting discussion on the AR twist rate .. there are 2 parts .. this is part one .. you can get to part 2 at the end of part 1 video ..

Well I pulled the trigger .. after much deliberation and looking at different models for the last year .. the last 3 months I've watched numerous YouTube video's on the performance of the S&W AR's and other brands .. looked at warranty's and literally over 100 different models .. I read and watched more vids on the difference in twist rates and the performance on the different grains of ammo it causes ..

What I found is basically throw all I've read out the window .. Each AR and AR barrel shoots differently .. It really comes down to what ammo size and brand does your AR shoot the best .. I've seen tests where a certain size grain shouldn't shoot well in a certain barrel twist and ends up with a tighter group then the barrel the ammo was supposedly designed for .. the same grain bullet from 2 suppliers have a 2 inch or more group difference ..

I had no idea there were so many different AR's out there on the market place when I started looking .. brands and the price differences were as numerous as the models !! I've watched the price go up 200 dollars plus and then return to lower levels after a few months .. you can spend as little as 499 to well the sky's the limit with match barrels and other add-ons that are available ..

I bought the S&W M&P15T 16" MAGPUL TACTICAL Model 311041LE just over 800 dollars with the FFL fee ..

Model:M&P15
Caliber:5.56 mm NATO / .223
Capacity:30 Rounds, 5.56 mm or .223
Barrel Length:16"
Action:Gas Operated Semi Automatic
Overall Length:35" Extended / 32" Compacted
Stock:6-Position Telescopic
Forend:Troy 4-Sided, 10" Free-Float Modular Rail Forend (MRF)
Sight Length:15"
Barrel Twist:1 in 9"
Weight (No Mag):6.85 lbs.
Trigger Pull:7 lbs. (approx.)
Upper/Lower Material:7075 T6 Aluminum
Barrel Material:4140 Steel
Front Sight:Folding Magpul (MBUS)
Rear Sight: Folding Magpul (MBUS)
Chromed Components:Barrel Bore, Gas Key, Bolt Carrier
Receiver and Barrel Finish:Hard Coat Black Anodized

Also ordered a cheap red dot (60 bucks) to put on it to start with .. will get something better probably a scope .. Sightmark/Landmark SM13041 Tact Red Dot

EDIT : I will also look for some kind of tripod for it the ones that are both a tripod and front hand grip look interesting ..

I am interested in purchasing this exact rifle from Bud's. How has your experience been with it thus far? Would you recommend it?

I am interested in purchasing this exact rifle from Bud's. How had your experience been.thus far? Would you recommend it?

Just sent you mail ..

Haven't been able to shoot it yet picked it up 2 Friday's ago and then left town till last Thursday .. Its gotten colder now and didn't get a chance this weekend ..

I'm sure it will shoot as other S&W AR15's .. tuning it to the right grain ammo will be the first test .. but I expect 3 round groups to be well under 3 inches and when I find the right grain size ammo it likes I should be able to dial that in to 1 to 1.5 inch or under 3 round groups .. the only thing I can see adding is a possible trigger upgrade .. rail attachments of a flash light and maybe a laser is about all I can think of .. unless you ditch the red dot and go with it scoped ..

I'm a S&W fan .. the AR was well built .. fit was very good .. finish on the upper and lower was well matched and smooth looking no blotches of varying color .. everything was tight no rattles ..

It was very dry no oil/grease could be found .. bolt was also a bit tight but worked smoothly after a cleaning and good oiling .. Not sure if it was fired as no burnt powder smell was noticeable .. and didn't get any discoloration on the patches when I cleaned it .. but then it is a couple of years old so powder smell may be gone ..

Yes I would recommend this to others .. in fact thinking of ordering a 2nd one for my wife ..

I'm not sure Bud's has this model on the regular pages .. I found it on the QP Discounted Smith & Wesson Firearms Page .. to order there you have to be a present or ex LEO or a VET and send them a copy of your DD214 if a VET .. not sure the LEO requirements ....