Any handloaders in here worked up a load for the M&P15? I've had dismal results with the readily available factory loads, and it seems like the ubiquitous 55gr bullet is too light to work well in the 1:9" rifling mine has. It's a bone stock M&P15 with a midrange Leupold scope on top and some aftermarket stock/fore end replacements. Looking forward to getting a better trigger, though.

I'm not trying to break any long range records, but I am hoping to work up economical, reasonably accurate loads I can produce in quantity. 2 inches at 100 yards should not be that hard. I've read a good bit about AR handloading so far but wondered about any model-specific hints anyone might have.

Thanks!

I load for my M&P Sport I with 1:9 twist. I run two basic loads:
* Hornady 55gr FMJs - generally about $.23/loaded round
* Hornady 53gr Match Bullet - generally about $.33/loaded round

I'm using scrounged range brass. The above numbers do not account for buying brass.

The FMJs I can get ~1.25" @ 100yds. With the Match bullets I can get ~.75". I regularly ping steel out to 400 yds or so.

I'm using H335 powder and CCI Magnum Small Rifle primers. (My Speer manual says to use magnum primers with ball powders, which H335 is.) I don't like putting specific powder charges I use online - for fear of fat fingering something and giving bad data for something that is so critical.

H335 is so ubiquitous there is tons of load data out there on it. I did find it hard to find load data for the 53gr Hornadys - but I did.

Be careful of military primer pockets and reaming them appropriately. Primer pockets get pretty tight for me. And interestingly/ironically, I've had a couple of situations where I didn't seat the primer deeply enough. So the first trigger pull resulted in a click (pushing the primer deeper into the cup). It was the second trigger pull which caused these rounds to go off.

I'm using FL sizing die - not the small base die.

I put in a Geissele SSA-E trigger and I LOVE it.

Good luck.

There's a few of us here that reload, though most here buy theirs already rolled. I won't give you any specific data since every gun is different, and I don't know your experience level. Plus, some of pet loads use bullets and /or powder that ahven't been on the market in a number of years.

As to reloading the AR, it's actually easier than loading for a bolt gun or single shot. Since you're confined to mag length, there is not much you can do to vary OAL. One thing to understand is that every barrel is different as to what it likes. So be prepared to do a fair amount of testing.
As to bullets, if you want to reduce group size, most fmj's are not what you want for small groups. And 55's are not too light for a 1in9 twist. Some of my best groups so far have come with 52 gr HPs.

With powders, you have a number of choices Everything from 4198 to CFE223 in burn rates. Again a lot of choices.

My best advice right now- Use at least couple of manuals in your load development. And start out with the light loads and work your way up. Max velocity doesn't always go hand in hand with best accuracy.

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Peace was my Profession

I am very interested in the replies you get! Needed some ideas myself.

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Hue 68 noli me tangere

Exactly what loads are you using, and what kind of results are you getting? If you are using M193 and getting 2 to 4 MOA with a stock gun, you are within expectations...

Thanks for the quick replies. I have only used factory ammo so far and am getting set to load some of my own. Based on advice from a friend, I have a Dillon "Super Swage 600" to deal with the crimped primer pockets. I appreciate and respect the universal hesitancy at giving exact load data online.

I have a few bullet weights sitting around to work on and will start at average and work up. Just wanted to see if there were any typical pitfalls to be aware of.

I'm especially happy to hear that the 50 to 55gr bullets are not a plain no-go in this barrel. I'll post progress reports as I get going...

Thanks!

If you're used to loading, as Westie said, you'll find the AR pretty straightforward. The mag tends to be the limiting factor for COL. And if your bullet has a cannelure (as the 55gr Hornady FMJs do) I just load to that and put a slight roll crimp on it.

It's REALLY nice going out to the range and not worrying about where your next set of rounds will come from - or when the next ammo scare will happen.

Have fun!

OR

What factory ammo have you used, and what were the results?

I have fired the American Eagle cheapie rounds marked 223 and 5.56 and both seems to give me 4-5 inch groups at 100 yards. I was not expecting match grade performance from bulk ammo, but I thought it should be better than that.

I am quite capable of 1-2 moa groups with some of my other rifles, so although the stock trigger is definitely an issue, this is a little disappointing. I don't have much experience with bulk "zombie killer" ammo for rifles, so maybe it's just par for the course. The handloads will tell...

There's a reloading/handloading forum on this site. Your question might find additional cogent answers there.

I use the circular divot on the side of a milk jug as a 100 yard target. It is roughly 2.75 inches in diameter and I can reliably put 9 of 10 of any of the following loads in it:

55 gr FMJ 21.0 grains IMR-4198
55 gr FMJ 25.0 grains WW-748
60 gr JHP 23.5 grains IMR-3031
60 gr JHP 20.3 grains IMR-4198

Please note that some of these loads come out of the Hornady Handbook #4 which has since been superceded by later editions that have lower maximum loads. In particular the 20.3 grain 60 gr. JHP load is in excess of the maximum in Hornady Hanbook #8. Still, I loaded 2,000 rounds of this ammunition in the early 1980s and still have 800 rounds of it left. I have no intention of disassembling what was a "below maximum" load when I fabricated them, but I am aware of the fact that I am shooting rounds that are in excess of current maximums.

Since you have no idea whether I'm a practicing forensic engineer or some nut case that thinks pressure limits are for the timid, please consult and follow published loading data.

Nice disclaimer!.. LOL

It was a long time ago but, when I shot high power my accuracy load was 25.0 of Varget. 55's thru 80's. No, it doesn't meter well. Noslers for 55's sierras for everything else. Fmj's I didn't reload. However, Winchester's q3131 would do 1" groups in all the AR's I ever had. I don't know if it's still available.

A 4 MOA group is within "spec" for the ammo, but I agree... if you are shooting from the bench or prone, you should get better.

I would get someone else to shoot it before I started chasing a hand load. It isn't often, but we have seen posts of a bad barrel from the factory in the past. I would also double check the scope and mounts, make sure they are tight. I would probably go as far as taking the scope off the rifle and shooting the iron sights just to see if I got the same results.

I've loaded 55gr FMJ's and SP's along with some 62gr Hornady BTHP's for my AR's. So far the 62gr bullets have been more accurate however mine is not an S&W but rather an FN made barrel ordered from PSA. As others have said, each barrel is it's own special case and it will take lots of trial and error to figure out exactly what it likes. I also shoot iron sights so my 100 yard groups would most definitely be better if it were scoped however I can pull off repeated head shots at 100 yards pretty easy. Since I'm not a bench rest shooter I'm happy with the accuracy I get and have found my handloads to be at least as accurate as any factory ammo if not better.

Next question I have is what equipment will you be reloading with? If you will be using a single stage press and measuring each charge any available powder will work. If you're loading on a progressive with a powder drop your choices will be limited to powders that meter well. I've settled on CFE223 because it meters extremely accurate in my Hornady LNL.

I normally don't post data on-line, but the following is from a book titled, "The competitive AR". The author states that a well know maker uses it to test his products.

CC-450
25.0 H335
Sierra 52gr Match King

I buy the products in bulk and my cost is less than XM-193 that you can find on-line. When I shot competitively I could bench my rifle and regularly shoot 0.5" groups or better. You can substitute 55gr bullets with the same charge.

I've started substituting 28.0gr of CFE-223 with the 52gr Matchking. The load shoots almost as well and is about 150 fps faster. Note that 28.0gr of CFE-223 is over max with a 55gr bullet.

I load ANY 55 gr bullet over 26 grs. of WW748........ALWAYS consult a loading manual before copying any loads listed here

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S&W Accumulator

H335, X-treme 55g FMJBT, 2.200 seated OAL, CCI small rifle primer. Fantastic cartridge. As mentioned, make sure of your primer pockets and trim the brass as required. I too use a SSA-E trigger! A+ for that trigger.

Hey--thanks for all the info, and everyone can rest assured I am not in the habit of loading anything I find on the internet without checking out the data in the manuals I have on hand. There's a reason I still have 10 fingers and two functional eyeballs...

I do think that loads from the 80s are perfectly fine if they were loaded in the 80s with contemporary powders. Some of these powders can change markedly over time and still be sold under the same name.

Current books for current cooks...

As far as iron sights shooting, I can keep things close to an 8" circle with iron sights at 50 yards as it is. Why I couldn't be satisfied with that, and had to put a scope on, is beyond me. I have noticed that putting on a strap-on brass catcher moves the whole group to the left at 100 yards. Is that common?

I use exclusively W-748 powder for my M&P 15 (1 in 8" twist) and my SP1 (1 in 12" twist) loads. These loads work well for me and were obtained with a Leupold scope on a Burris PEPR mount and a Wilson Combat TTU trigger. W-748 is or was quite popular in the AR 15. Old age has a grip on my trigger finger so I'm sure a younger shooter could easily beat these 5 shot groups.

25.2 W-748 / WSP / Hornady 55 FMJBT - ~1" @ 100 yards <<< 0.625" @ 50 yards
24.9 W-748 / WSP / Hornady 55 Blitz - 0.937" @ 100 yards <<< 0.250" @ 50 yards
24.9 W-748 / WSP / Sierra GK 65 SPBT - 1.584" @ 100 yards <<< why? Obtained 0.125" group at 50 yards. Must be me.....

That's all I have at 100 yards that's worth reporting. I run my ladder loads at 50 yards and then verify the winner at 100 yards. My rifle also seems to like the Sierra 69 HPBT and Sierra 55 SP but haven't verified @ 100. Hope this helps somehow. Always verify internet data with reloading manuals like everyone says. Good luck!

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Webfarmer

I just bought some 2016 dated Q3131 last week, waiting for the nor'easter to blow through to try it.
Thanks for raising my hopes.

My M&P15 (1:9) shoots 2.5-3" @ 100yds with PMC 223 55gr, some old 2009 Q3131, Fed M193. BTW, that's with my old body and iron sights.

To flatfoot,
If you're going to handload .223/5.56, or any bottleneck cartridge, I would strongly suggest you get a Wilson or other case length gauge to check your brass headspace distance (base to shoulder length) to help you set the sizing die depth properly. It will make your shooting safer and your brass will last longer.

per post 19;

Good at 50, poor at 100yards...
This can happen when a bullet does not match the rifle twist.

Fast twist (1:14) usually do best with light bullets....
Slow twist (1:9) will do better with larger bullets....... However
I had a Speer 70gr RN do under an inch with a tight 1:14 twist in one rifle at 100 yards.
You just never know what your rifle will like with different powders, ball vs extruded, fast
or slow and bullets, FB vs boat tail.

1:14 is a slow twist rate... slower than 1:9. The ratio is number of revelutions in inches. So 1:14, the bullet will spin 360 degrees in 14".

I think Ed knows this and just got the fast and slow backwards... but just to clarify for someone who might be looking for more understanding.

Geeeezzzzeeeee...........

Getting old sucks.
Thanks for clearing that up.

The cheap / bulk stuff will go bang, but don't hope for consistent groups smaller than about 2"or so from a bench. Factory match ammo will do much better, but good handloads will beat that. If you're willing to devote the time to load development, try as starters the Sierra 65 grain GK SPBT or the Sierra 69 gr. MK BTHP and H4895 powder, with TAC a close second.

Get a case gauge even before you buy components.

Great wealth of info here--thanks to all again. In the next week or so I'll be designing my first set of test loads and this thread has a number of good leads to consider.

Possibly related to the case gauge comments, my goal for this rifle/load is to develop something with cheap, easily obtained components that will work tolerably well with the pounds of spent cases I can obtain readily at my local range.

After polishing, I put a handful of this mixed bag of brass through a full length resizing (RCBS standard 223, FL) and then got my swager tuned pretty close to right to seat primers easily. To my surprise, a good 20 to 25% of this brass is just over the maximum case length after resizing. Knowing my local range and its clientele, I am quite certain that pretty much all of this brass has only been fired once. Is this a common occurrence with bulk ammo? Having checked the chamber on my rifle, I don't think "close to max" case length would be a problem BUT--"if there's any doubt, there is no doubt!"

Given how easy to obtain this brass is, I'm not sure I see any point in case trimming. Are the specs for headspace length really that sloppy for bulk ammo? Definitely an area I don't have a lot of experience in.

If you have brass that is over the max length, you do want to trim it. If you don't, what happens is that you add extra crimp. And extra crimp means increased chamber pressure, which is not good for safety or brass/ rifle lifespan.

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Peace was my Profession

I'm on the edge of my knowledge here - so someone more knowledgeable either correct or confirm.

Headspace is independent of case length. Headspace on the the .223 is measured from the case head to some place on the shoulder - not exactly sure where. But case length includes the neck. So a sized case can be fine from a headspace perspective, but too long from a max case length perspective.

I've never looked at frequency of case trimming required for true-once-fired brass, but I'm pretty confident (gut feel) that once trimmed to trim-to length, it takes a couple of firings before it needs to be trimmed again.

BTW, that frequency of trimming might be reduced if you set up your dies to not move the shoulder completely back to SAAMI specs with each firing. Although I haven't yet done this, but bumping the shoulder by .004-5" might be sufficient for reliable feeding without overworking the brass (and causing more trimming).

OR

The point to case trimming is because an overly long case can jam in the throat of the rifle and hinder or prevent the release of the bullet which will cause pressures to skyrocket with concomitant spontaneous disassembly of your rifle.

First, you put yourself at an immediate disadvantage using range pickup brass. A lot of this stuff has approximately the same weight and case capacity, but if you're not familiar with brass, some of it may be 10% heavier which might require a reduced powder charge in comparison to other brass, depending on your load. If you must use range stuff, get enough of it with one headstamp and use that. You may or may not have to swage primer pockets before you can prime cases. If you have to swage primer pockets, get an RCBS unit; they're cheap and they work well once adjusted properly, despite what others may say.

Good quality once-fired .223 or 5.56 brass, all with the same headstamp can be bought very cheaply from a number of sources. Trim long brass to the right length. Get a case gauge and run the brass through it after sizing. You might be able to get by without full-length sizing and still have your brass fit your gauge, but you will definitely have to size more than for a bolt-action rifle.

Anyway, size enough for the brass to easily fit your gauge and don't worry about so many thousandths of inch shoulder bump. If a case won't fit the gauge after full-sizing, throw that case in the scrap pile. You don't want to get a case stuck in the chamber of an AR-15. Good luck-

1) Better bullets. Bulk 55gn FMJ are the least accurate. Good luck trying to get 2in groups with any (standard) rifle with bulk bullets.
2) Consistent reloading methodology. All the little tricks like all same brass, and case gauges, and exact OAL, etc. are very little... little help. Doing things the same way every time leads to good accuracy.

The info given here for your question is good. I would strongly suggest you go over to youtube and look up 76highboy reloading. He has a complete series on reloading for .223 Remington and covers the how to's and whys for each and every step along the way. It can be a bit tedious but the information he relays is very important, why it's important, and is very detailed. He even goes into range brass and mixed once fired brass but I think that is in a different series.

The case gauge's most important function is to check the case length from base to shoulder, not overall length. That's to be sure the cartridge when seated in the chamber will allow the bolt to lock closed with proper space between the bolt face and cartridge base. Too much clearance (oversizing) will wear your brass quickly and may even cause a head separation, giving the shooter a face full of flying particles, hot gas and blow the bottom out of your magazine or worse. That happened to a guy at my range two weeks ago. Too little space (undersizing, not setting the shoulder back far enough) and you run the risk of a slam fire when the bolt closes, just as nasty or worse than the case head separation.

If you're lucky, running the die down to just clear the shell holder with ram fully up may be just right, but if it's not, and you don't know it, you could get hurt.
The distance from your shell holder to the shoulder in the sizing die determines the case headspace length (base to shoulder) To get this right, you may have to set the die with some clearance over the shell holder with the ram all the way up, or you may find the die bottoms out on the shell holder before it sets the case shoulder back enough, in which case you'll have to grind a little off the die to make more clearance.

To be safe, please, get a case gage and use it to check and set your sizing die relative to the shell holder, and thereby establishing a correct case shoulder to base length.

Some case gages (Wilson) also check the over all brass length as well, but calipers will do that too. Just keep the brass overall length within SAAMI limits, your overall cartridge length within magazine limits, and you'll be fine.

I have a WW748 load of 26.0 grains in mixed brass, trimmed to same length, crimp swaged out. I used CCI Sm Rifle Mag Primers, and Winchester contract overrun 55 gr FMJBT. All these components were from the late 80's & early 90's. The primers and bullets available now are different! I loaded a 20,000 round batch back then, and still have a few thousand.

The results in my 1994 20" Bushmaster with a 14x Leupold of a rest are 1/2" at 100! In my 24" Cooper M21 with a 25x Leupold are 1/8 to 1/4 at 100, depending on wind!

These shoot well in my sons M-4 16" as well.

H335 is a great powder, I just never used it in 223, but use it exclusively in my 22BR!

I have found 50 and 55 grain polymer tipped bullets to be much more consistent than anything else in .224 these days! The problem is finding a large quantity of the same lot! I found a shooting supply that is willing to work with needs, and supplies me with several thousand bullet from the same lot. I buy primers in the 5000 case, and depending on my needs up to 30 pounds of powder in the same lot. (It may take 6 or 7 months to fill one of my orders, but it is done correctly!) I the keep these components as a group for one cartridge/rifle until I need more or I sell the gun.

CONSISTANCY IS THE KEY TO ACCURECY!

I swear by RCBS and Redding dies! But I have a Savage 223 bolt rifle that shoots 3" groups at 1000 yards, but only when using Lee dies, the best my Redding and RCBS competition dies can do is 5" in that gun! I full length size every case! I trim only as often as needed (but keep everything for that gun the same length!)

Keep good notes on what you do and if it works you can repeat it. If it fails, you then know what not to do again! (Lot numbers are important too!)

You have now become a ballistics researcher, have fun!

Ivan

I trim all my once fired brass to the 1.750" trim length listed in the load manual. Some are over the max length of 1.760" and typically out of 1,000 cases you will have a handful that are just under the 1.750" trim length. I tumble first, then resize/deprime, trim, chamfer, debur, remove primer crimp and then tumble again. If you are going to use a crimp having all cases the same length will be very important. I trim all my 357/44mag cases also just so I get a consistent crimp. If you will not be crimping it doesn't matter that much providing the cases aren't too long. Once done, you shouldn't need to trim again for several reloads.

Midsouth has a Hornady 62gr BTHP which has been very accurate for me and they work out to about 10 cents each.

Huh - short and sweet. learn more here by accident than most will learn any where else by design

I have never had much luck with FMJ bullets in my AR's for decent groups. Your 1 in 9" twist should work fine, even with 40 gr bullets. The key to good groups is good bullets, regardless of their weight. Try some Federal American Eagle Tipped Varmint 50 gr factory loads, or some Fiocchi Extrema 40 or 50 gr V-MAX loads. They are quite affordable and I will be surprised if you don't see significant improvement in your groups. Both my AR's shoot those around an inch or better for 5 shot groups at 100 yards. I get similar performance with handloads with Ramshot TAC powder and 40 or 50 gr Nosler Ballistic Tips or Varmageddons, or Hornady V-MAX or Z-Max bullets.