Steel case 223

lrmnut · #1 03-20-2017, 08:54 PM

Do any of you shoot steel case ammo in your M&P15 if so any
thing wrong or not.

otisrush · #2 03-20-2017, 09:09 PM

Well I don't, but TONS of people here have reported they do with minimal, if any, issues. There has been at least one extreme test of shooting steel case through an AR (via a blogger) and the conclusion was, yes, it does wear out barrels faster, but given the cost savings of that much ammo as compared to brass it more than pays for a replacement barrel.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/bras...el-cased-ammo/

OR

lrmnut · #3 03-20-2017, 09:17 PM

Would you use this
TulAmmo .223 Remington Ammunition 1000 Rounds, Steel Case HP, 55 Grain - TA223552 - 814950016185

Kodiakco · #4 03-20-2017, 09:58 PM

I use wolf military classic with no issues.

Sent from my SM-T377V using Tapatalk

scott_0 · #5 03-20-2017, 10:00 PM

my AR shoots Tulammo just fine, therefore I use it, lots of folks will cry that it wears out the barrel faster, you'd have to be putting A LOT of rounds down range to do so

Sent from my Galaxy S7 Edge on Tapatalk

one eye joe · #6 03-20-2017, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by otisrush

Well I don't, but TONS of people here have reported they do with minimal, if any, issues. There has been at least one extreme test of shooting steel case through an AR (via a blogger) and the conclusion was, yes, it does wear out barrels faster, but given the cost savings of that much ammo as compared to brass it more than pays for a replacement barrel.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/bras...el-cased-ammo/

OR

I HAVE SHOT SEVERAL THOUSAND ROUNDS THROUGH THE 3 VARIATIONS OF BUSHMASTER ARs THAT I OWNED, INCLUDING A "VARMINTER". I HAVE NOT HAD ANY PROBLEMS.......

I DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW A "STEEL CASE" COULD POSSIBLY WEAR OUT A BARREL. ONLY THE CASE IS STEEL, NOT THE BULLET, AND THE CASE DOES NOT GO DOWN THE BARREL......

77blackcj5 · #7 03-20-2017, 10:15 PM

Almost everything I shoot is wolf or tulammo. Never had an issue with it.

snm8510 · #8 03-20-2017, 10:17 PM

I use steel case all the time with 0 issues. Only issues I've heard are from piston driven ARs and SCARs (seen issues with the SCAR 16 and 17, primarily 17) ripping the back of the casing off.. I say shoot it and enjoy your rifle.

otisrush · #9 03-20-2017, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by one eye joe

I HAVE SHOT SEVERAL THOUSAND ROUNDS THROUGH THE 3 VARIATIONS OF BUSHMASTER ARs THAT I OWNED, INCLUDING A "VARMINTER". I HAVE NOT HAD ANY PROBLEMS.......

I DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW A "STEEL CASE" COULD POSSIBLY WEAR OUT A BARREL. ONLY THE CASE IS STEEL, NOT THE BULLET, AND THE CASE DOES NOT GO DOWN THE BARREL......

I didn't read in detail the article I provided a link to - as I don't use steel myself - only my own reloads. I did read the conclusions and that's the conclusion they came to. Why that's the case I don't know.

OR

Flash_80 · #10 03-20-2017, 10:31 PM

I went through a couple of cases of Wolf over 10 years ago and did well other than a few overlaquered cases that didn't go in the chamber. Have not shot any in my M&P, but I shot some Tula in my Sig. Some of it worked ok at first, but then I had a big mess of it that would short cycle. Not powerful enough to chamber the next round. It worked a little better in my Cousin's Sport, but did not work at all in my Uncle's Core 15. I fired out the last 80rds I had shooting nearly single shots and have not bought anymore.

JHB51 · #11 03-20-2017, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by one eye joe

I HAVE SHOT SEVERAL THOUSAND ROUNDS THROUGH THE 3 VARIATIONS OF BUSHMASTER ARs THAT I OWNED, INCLUDING A "VARMINTER". I HAVE NOT HAD ANY PROBLEMS.......

I DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW A "STEEL CASE" COULD POSSIBLY WEAR OUT A BARREL. ONLY THE CASE IS STEEL, NOT THE BULLET, AND THE CASE DOES NOT GO DOWN THE BARREL......

The bullet is steel with a lead core and copper plating out side. The steel case doesn't wear out the barrel but the steel bullet driven down a steel barrel does. The copper plating is not thick enough to prevent steel on steel.

cyphertext · #12 03-20-2017, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHB51

The bullet is steel with a lead core and copper plating out side. The steel case doesn't wear out the barrel but the steel bullet driven down a steel barrel does. The copper plating is not thick enough to prevent steel on steel.

But that only applies to certain steel cased ammo... not all steel cased ammo is equal.

I've used the offending ammo from the Lucky Gunner test. I've also used Hornady steel cased ammo, which is a lead bullet with copper jacket... same projectile as used in their brass cased ammo.

Also, there was another discussion that I had linked to at one time that theorized that it was not the bi-metal jacket that caused the wear, but the propellant that was used... I'll have to see if I can find that again.

rockquarry · #13 03-20-2017, 11:20 PM

I use very little factory ammo of any kind, preferring my own handloads. I've never fired steel-cased ammunition. However, it would seem that to make a cartridge case of steel, the steel would have to be a very mild, soft steel, far softer than the steel in a receiver, bolt, or barrel chamber. If that's true, it's difficult to see how steel-cased ammo would accelerate wear to an appreciable degree, if it accelerated wear at all.

As for wear to the bore itself, it should be no greater than normal wear from firing good quality brass-cased ammunition if copper jacketed bullets are used.

Flash_80 · #14 03-20-2017, 11:23 PM

I don't guess I've ever known that the actual bullet was steel. I've always been under the idea that these were standard lead/copper bullets in steel casings. And my idea of wear would be a steel case going in and out of the chamber as opposed to a softer brass case.

Disabled1 · #15 03-21-2017, 01:42 AM

99% of the ammo that is shot from my AR's is steel case ammo. If you're shooting SCA and you have an occasional FTE, then, install this bolt extractor upgrade kit from BCM. I have one in my Sport I & AR-556.
BCM Extractor Spring Uprade Kit

BCM SOPMOD Bolt Upgrade/Rebuild Kit

jagular · #16 03-21-2017, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by otisrush

I didn't read in detail the article I provided a link to - as I don't use steel myself - only my own reloads. I did read the conclusions and that's the conclusion they came to. Why that's the case I don't know.

OR

Steel cased ammo refers not only to the steel casing but also the bimetal bullet that typically goes along with it (typ Russian). This bimetal bullet is a harder composite material compared to lead and copper jacketed ammo. Thus resulting in shorter barrel life and other components (like the extractor) COMPARED to softer brass cased type ammo.

I have a sport that I exclusively shoot Tulammo through. Of the couple thousand rounds I have down it I've had one stuck casing. Cleared it and continued to shoot another hundred rounds. Low cost/quality ammo allows me to shoot more often. The money saved is a plus but as much as we like to think that we are saving to replace parts, it just gets spent on more ammo.

Racer X · #17 03-21-2017, 02:18 AM

OK, bottom line. Basic math.

If you wear out the barrel after 7K rounds of steel cased bi-metal jacket rounds, at roughly $200+ shipped per 1000 rounds, you have saved roughly $700 over even basic reloads at $300 a thousand.

That $700 buys you a VERY nice barrel that a gunsmith installs for you, so no work at ALL for you, and still have a few hundred left over.

Basic math. So, if the ACCURACY is sufficient for you, shoot the bi-metal bullets and get on with your lives.

There is a term I learned.... analysis paralysis. Stuck in a loop doing nothing but analysis, and never moving forward. There is also another saying "Get off the X" Many of you might know this one.

Your helicopter has landed, and you have all gotten off. That is the X. Now shooting starts. You need to MOVE, or you will die on the X. Any specific direction might get you wounded or killed, but NOT moving WILL get you killed. GET OFF THE X.

Shoot the rifle, and whenever the barrel, or any other component wears out, replace it, and get on with your life.

cyphertext · #18 03-21-2017, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flash_80

I don't guess I've ever known that the actual bullet was steel. I've always been under the idea that these were standard lead/copper bullets in steel casings. And my idea of wear would be a steel case going in and out of the chamber as opposed to a softer brass case.

With the imported ammo like Wolf, Silver Bear, Brown Bear, Monarch, etc, the bullet is not steel. It is a lead projectile covered by a bi-metal jacket. The bi-metal jacket is one theory of what accelerates barrel wear.

WVSig · #19 03-21-2017, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyphertext

With the imported ammo like Wolf, Silver Bear, Brown Bear, Monarch, etc, the bullet is not steel. It is a lead projectile covered by a bi-metal jacket. The bi-metal jacket is one theory of what accelerates barrel wear.

The other is propellant. Either way if the accuracy and function of steel cased ammo meets your needs there is cost savings to be had even when you take into account replacing a barrel or 2.

The classic argument: Is Steel Case Okay To Shoot? - AR15.COM

Quote:

Everybody has seen this THAT article from Lucky Gunner Labs, and while it is a good article and full of good information, many people out in internet-land tend to draw conclusions that are not correct. One of the most quoted incorrect conclusions is "...steel cased ammo wears out barrels" or "…bi-metal jacketed bullets wear out barrel twice as fast as copper jacketed bullets…"

It is unquestionable that Wolf, Brown Bear and (probably) Tula steel jacketed, bi-metal jacketed ammunition will wear out a barrel faster than Federal XM193 ammunition, but the but the extra jump to "all bi-metal" vs "all copper jacketed" is not supportable. Even worse is the "steel cased ammo, wears out barrels", The type of material the case is made from has nothing to do with barrel life.

Here's why:

From the earliest day of smokeless propellant, the problem of bore erosion and wear has been a constant head-ache to owners of large number of high use guns and very expensive guns, namely the military. So, not surprisingly, they did a lot, and I mean A LOT, of research into what causes bore erosion, and how to reduce it.

There are basically two causes of bore wear - 1) heat, the flame temperature of burning propellant is anywhere from 2500 to 3000 degrees K, depending on the actual propellant (for reference, the melting point of the steel used in the barrel is 1700 degrees K), and 2) mechanical rubbing between the bullet and the barrel. Of the two, the effects of heat are probably the most damaging.

Here are some results of some US Army erosion tests done with 7.62mm Ball, M80:

Test firing.............Propellant..................... .....Jacket......No. of Rounds to.......Cause for
No...............................Type............. .....................Material....Disqualification. .......Disqualification

1..................................IMR 8138M Lot 2.................GM..............14,500.......... ...........V (1)
2.................................IMR 8138M Lot 2.................GMCS..........8,450............. ........K (2)
3................................IMR 8138M Lot 2.................GMCS........10,150.............. ........K
4................................IMR 8138M Lot 48..............GM................8,000........... ...........V
5................................IMR 8138M Lot 48...............GM................7,500.......... ............V
6................................IMR 8138M Lot 48...............GMCS..........7,850.............. ........K
7................................IMR 8138M Lot 48...............GMCS.........11,800.............. ........K
8................................WC 846 Lot AL44133..........GM..............17,300........... ...........V
9................................WC 846 Lot AL44133..........GMCS.........18,325.............. ........K

1) Velocity loss of more than 200 fps

2) Keyholing, defined as 20% or more bullets exceeding 15% yaw at 1000 inches (appox 25 meters)

The significant conclusions drawn from these results in the report this table was attached to were as follows:

1. Bullet jacket material (GM versus GMCS) does not appear to have a significant effect on barrel life. However, the GM jacketed lots all went out on velocity loss while the GMCS lots all went out on keyholing indicating that the mechanism of barrel failure was probably different.

2. WC 846 propellant is less erosive than IMR 8138M propellant.

One may note that test firings #2 and #6 differ greatly from #3 and #7, which is very puzzling as the components used were the same, and the propellant lots were the same. Also, the question of why did 8138M Lot #2 perform notably better that 8138 Lot #48, came up. In the report, the difference was written off to variations in the test barrels.

Partially in an attempt to explain the above, and also to test the usefulness of wear reducing additives, a second test was run, with stricter controls on barrel selection and more careful monitoring of various barrel parameters.

In this test several T65E1 machine guns (M1919A4s converted to 7.62mm) with chrome plated barrels were utilized. A 25 round belt was shot every 12 seconds until 500 rounds were expended. Then the barrel was allowed a 4 minute cool down period before the next 500 rounds were fired, again in 25 round increments. Bullet velocities and bullet yaw were continuously measured. Every 5000 rounds, the barrel was cooled to ambient, cleaned, measured, and samples of residue and bore fouling taken for analysis. The measuring consisted of measuring the diameter of the lands and grooves at 1 inch intervals were measured. Then the process was repeated until another 5000 rounds was shot, or the barrel failed due to keyholing or velocity loss.

The findings from the tests described in this report are summarized in the table below.

Summary of Results
.................................................. .................................................. ..................Adiabatic
.................................................. .................................................. ..................Isochoric
.................................................. .................................................. ..................AverageFlame.......No. of
Cartridge...........Bullet........................ ..........................CaC03...Mo03..........Te mp..............Rounds to
Lot No.................Design..................Propell ant..............(%)........(%)..............(K).. .................Disqual.

LC-SP-1368.......GMCS (1)..........Ball WC 846...........0.15............0.............2884.. ................10,417
LC 12923............GM (2)..............Ball WC 846............0.58...........0............2790... ...............18,042
FA-42-73...........GMCS.................Ball WC 846...........0.47...........0............2831.... ..............13,342
FA-2115..............GMCS.................Double Base............0..............1.05.........2889.. .................8,625
.................................................. ............Extruded
.................................................. ............Propellant
FA-2016..............GMCS.................Double Base............0................0.............291 2...................6,333
.................................................. ............Extruded
.................................................. ............Propellant

_______________________
1) Gilding Metal Clad Steel jacket (aka, bi-metal), the total jacket thickness is .021" with an outer gliding metal cladding averaging .003" thick. The core is a lead-antimony alloy with 2% antimony, softer that the GM bullet design. (Note: this is about the same cladding thickness as used by Wolf, Brown Bear and Tula.)

2) Gilding Metal Jacket, the total thickness of the jacket is .026". The core is a lead-antimony alloy with 10% antimony.

Note: All GM jackets bullets came from the same production lot, as did all GMCS jacket bullets.

Calcium carbonate (CaCO3) is an additive used to neutralize acid during the production of ball propellant. It has also been shown to reduce barrel wear, unfortunately, it also leads to increased fouling. WC846 made after 1969 was made with reduced CaCO3 content (less than .25%) in order to be used in the M16 without fouling the gas tube. At some point, WC864 with extremely low CaCO3 content was split-off as WC844, and WC846 with increased CaCO3 content was introduced as WC864+CaCO3 for use in 7.62mm, Ball, M80 specifically to increase barrel life.

You will note from the above table, and the before it, that there is a better correlation between flame temperatures and wear than jacket material and wear, especially if you know that 8138M has a flame temperature of 2770 to 2820 degrees K. GMCS jacketed bullet are only slightly harder on the barrel than GM jacketed bullets, but the choice of propellant can easily make up for the difference.

In the second test, measuring of the bore diameters did reveal something interesting. When a bore wears, enlarging of the throat tends to lead to velocity loss, as gas escapes around the bullet rather than pushing it down the barrel. Conversely, wear at the muzzle tends to lead to keyholing as the rifling loses its grip on the projectile before maximum velocity and maximum RPM are reached, therefore the bullet leaves the barrel with less spin than required to stabilize it

The measuring of the tested barrels showed the GMCS Jacketed bullets seem to open up the muzzle more than GM jacketed bullets, which would explain why GMCS jacketed bullets tended to keyhole. Not only did the land diameter increase, the groove diameter showed a similar enlargement. Possibly indicating a gas erosion phenomenon as the bullet nears the muzzle?

In all cases, the addition of calcium carbonate in the propellant drastically reduced the progression of throat erosion. Molybdeum trioxide did reduce throat erosion, but the fouling residue was so bad it made continued firing of the gun difficult (It formed in the recoil booster and prevented the barrel from sliding freely).

These are just two Army published reports that show that flame temperature of the propellant has a very large impact on barrel life. In fact, as a result of their years of study, the US Navy has adopted the simple solution to barrel erosion is simply reducing the flame temperature of the propellant and live with the reduced performance. This is the thinking that brought forth NACO (NAvy COol) propellant, and reduced muzzle velocity, and subsequently range.

(It is interesting to note that ball propellant, even though it is a double base propellant, burns cooler than 8138M, which is a single base propellant.)

The result shown in the Lucky Gunner test, are almost the exact same results as the results shown in the above two Army tests, namely, the relatively cool ball propellant used in M193 (WC 844, the same stuff as WC846 but with less CaCO3) will wear out a barrel in 13,000 to 15,000 rounds, and the reason for rejection will be velocity loss (if you look at the velocity chart for the copper jacketed bullets, the velocity loss will be more than 200 fps in about that time). We can only assume what powder Wolf, et al. are using, but it would seem from the results to be a relatively hot extruded propellant (double or single based) which has shown to wear out a barrel in about half the time as WC846/WC844, and the reason for rejection of the barrels is keyholing.

Basically, if you load up 15,000 rounds of 5.56 using IMR 8208 XBR (very similar to the stuff used in lot FA-2016), and shoot it from one AR, your not going to get through all of it before your barrel wears out even with copper jacketed bullets and brass cases.

Load up 15,000 rounds with WC844, in steel cases and copper jacketed bullets, and one barrel will survive it.

WVSig · #20 03-21-2017, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racer X

OK, bottom line. Basic math.

If you wear out the barrel after 7K rounds of steel cased bi-metal jacket rounds, at roughly $200+ shipped per 1000 rounds, you have saved roughly $700 over even basic reloads at $300 a thousand.

That $700 buys you a VERY nice barrel that a gunsmith installs for you, so no work at ALL for you, and still have a few hundred left over.

Basic math. So, if the ACCURACY is sufficient for you, shoot the bi-metal bullets and get on with your lives.

In general I agree but intended accuracy and function are the biggest variables here.

It also assumes a few things. First that there is a reasonable competent gunsmith in your area who will install your new barrel. In many areas this is not the case so it can add to the cost. Also to availability of barrels in the future. If I was going this route I would pick up a spare once the savings was recouped from the ammo savings to hedge my bet.

In the end if you only need 4-5" accuracy at 100 yards give or take and steel functions well in your rifle there is nothing wrong with steel cased ammo.

For me the bigger reality is that most people are never going to shoot $1,400 worth of steel cased ammo out of their $500 rifle for it to ever be an issue.

ChattanoogaPhil · #21 03-21-2017, 09:52 AM

No need to shoot 10k rounds of steel case to justify barrel wear, whatever the wear may be compared to brass. Heck, a guy could buy a new AR barrel (link below) with every 1k rounds of steel case and still break about even compared to brass. Not that it would be required... just sayin'.

I would not fret over the barrel life unless it's a high-end barrel... but for someone who for whatever reason wants to shoot a ton of cheap steel case and worried about preserving their factory barrel: Anderson 1/8 for $85. Swap barrels and get happy with steel case if ya want. Mag dumps or whatever... get brutal on it all you want. Anderson Manufacturing 16″ M4 Carbine Contour Barrel Chambered 5.56 With A 1-8 Twist M4 Feed Ramps

All that said... I'd not worry about a thing. Just enjoy the rifle shooting what you want.

I'm seeing some ARs nearing $400. A case of M855 is over $300... kinda puts the cost of budget rifle parts wear and replacement in perspective.

Arik · #22 03-21-2017, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W.E.G.

I used to try to reason with folks who want to shoot steel-case in AR's.

I even posted pics of the failed steel cases from attempts to shoot it in my own guns.

I give up at this point.

I think this about sums it up:

Doesn't really sum anything up. No one is talking about using steel case for bear hunting or any hunting.

In YOUR gun they didn't work fine, don't use em. My Colt has a problem with Independence BRASS ammo. Sooo...I don't buy it. No big deal.

My experience with steel case has been overwhelming positive from decades of shooting it through every gun I own including old German guns, bolt action rifles, surplus rifles, modern rifles and handguns

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Pisgah · #23 03-21-2017, 12:23 PM

As is usually the case when this topic comes up, it seems no one is interested in establishing exactly what is meant by "steel case" ammo. Is it ammo with a steel cartridge case, or ammo with a mild-steel-jacketed bullet?

Either way, the fact that literally billions of rounds of this type of ammo have been burned over the last 8 or 9 decades without any noticeable practical difference between this type or any other should suffice to convince the thinking man that there's not much to worry about, steel or no steel.

ChattanoogaPhil · #24 03-21-2017, 01:04 PM

Cleaned up the thread.

Gentlemen, knock off the bickering.

Keep the discussion and critiques aimed at the subject, not at each other.

hdwhit · #25 03-21-2017, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Irmnut wrote:
Do any of you shoot steel case ammo in your M&P15 ...?

I shoot only brass case because I reload.

My friends who do not reload use steel case (Wolf, Tula, Privi Partisan, etc.) for the cost savings and have had no problem with it that I am aware of.

hoc9sw · #26 03-21-2017, 10:07 PM

I can't shoot rifles much in general (arthritis and bad shoulder), so a score on a good brass case lot will last the rest of my life, and provide reload fodder to my friends who do. On the other hand, the AR I bought "back in the day" is probably only worth half of what I paid for it, at least until the next crisis. The guy who built it for me says steel cartridges are fine, and he'll fix it for free if I break it.

Not sure that it matters if it gets shot out, nothing special added to it that won't unscrew or unbolt.

Disabled1 · #27 03-22-2017, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Disabled1

99% of the ammo that is shot from my AR's is steel case ammo. If you're shooting SCA and you have an occasional FTE, then, install this bolt extractor upgrade kit from BCM. I have one in my Sport I & AR-556.
BCM Extractor Spring Uprade Kit

BCM SOPMOD Bolt Upgrade/Rebuild Kit

My Sport I never had a FTE when using SCA, but, I put a kit in the bolt anyway. My AR-556 had a few FTE's when using Tula SCA, but, never with Wolf SCA. I bought a PSA Premium (no logo) BCG for it and installed a kit in it as well. Both of them eat SCA now like it were candy to a kid.

AR-15 - Upgrade Your Extractor Spring - BCM Upgrade Kit - YouTube

AR15 JAMMING ?, NOT ABLE TO SHOOT STEEL CASE AMMO ? - YouTube

shep854 · #28 03-22-2017, 09:48 AM

Be sure to keep the chamber scrubbed out well. In this video, Tim explains why:

JaPes · #29 03-22-2017, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by one eye joe

I
I DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW A "STEEL CASE" COULD POSSIBLY WEAR OUT A BARREL. ONLY THE CASE IS STEEL, NOT THE BULLET, AND THE CASE DOES NOT GO DOWN THE BARREL......

THE CASE ISN'T THE ISSUE. THE ISSUE IS THAT THE MOST POPULAR STEEL CASE AMMUNITION IS OF RUSSIAN MANUFACTURE. THE STEEL CASES WILL WEAR OUT AN EXTRACTOR FASTER THAN SOFTER BRASS. EXTRACTORS ARE CHEAP AND EASY TO REPLACE.

THE ISSUE COMES FROM THE PROJECTILE USED IN RUSSIAN MANUFACTURE STEEL CASE AMMUNITION. IT IS A MILD STEEL COPPER WASHED (BI-METAL) JACKET OVER SOFT LEAD. MILD STEEL IS HARDER THAN COPPER. THE BI-METAL JACKET WILL ERODE THE BARREL THROAT AND BARREL LANDS FASTER THAN TRADITIONAL COPPER FMJ.

BARREL LIFE SHOOTING SOLELY BI-METAL JACKETED AMMO IS AROUND 6,000 ROUNDS.

BARREL LIFE SHOOTING TRADITIONAL COPPER FMJ IS AROUND 10,000 ROUNDS.

PRACTICAL DIFFERENCE? MOOT. SHOOT BI-METAL JACKETED AMMO TO SAVE MONEY, YOU'LL USE THE SAVINGS TO BUY A NEW BARREL. SHOOT EXCLUSIVELY FMJ TO GET TO 10,000 ROUNDS, AND YOU STILL END UP AT THE SAME END COST.

Brian in Oregon · #30 03-23-2017, 03:01 PM

Over the years I've witnessed two issues with steel cases.

Lacquer deposits in really hot chambers. I rarely get an AR hot enough for the lacquer to be an issue for me, but it could be for some.

Two broken extractors and some prematurely worn extractors. While extractors are cheap, personally I'd rather not subject them to more wear than what they get from brass cases. However, I can well see where replacing an inexpensive part can be more than offset by getting a super buy on ammo.

I think as long as someone is aware of these issues and takes a little extra effort to keep the chamber clean, and carries spare extractor parts or an extra bolt head (Magpul MOE/MIAD grips have an insert just for that) then have at it.

Arik · #31 03-23-2017, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaPes

THE CASE ISN'T THE ISSUE. THE ISSUE IS THAT THE MOST POPULAR STEEL CASE AMMUNITION IS OF RUSSIAN MANUFACTURE. THE STEEL CASES WILL WEAR OUT AN EXTRACTOR FASTER THAN SOFTER BRASS. EXTRACTORS ARE CHEAP AND EASY TO REPLACE.

THE ISSUE COMES FROM THE PROJECTILE USED IN RUSSIAN MANUFACTURE STEEL CASE AMMUNITION. IT IS A MILD STEEL COPPER WASHED (BI-METAL) JACKET OVER SOFT LEAD. MILD STEEL IS HARDER THAN COPPER. THE BI-METAL JACKET WILL ERODE THE BARREL THROAT AND BARREL LANDS FASTER THAN TRADITIONAL COPPER FMJ.

BARREL LIFE SHOOTING SOLELY BI-METAL JACKETED AMMO IS AROUND 6,000 ROUNDS.

BARREL LIFE SHOOTING TRADITIONAL COPPER FMJ IS AROUND 10,000 ROUNDS.

PRACTICAL DIFFERENCE? MOOT. SHOOT BI-METAL JACKETED AMMO TO SAVE MONEY, YOU'LL USE THE SAVINGS TO BUY A NEW BARREL. SHOOT EXCLUSIVELY FMJ TO GET TO 10,000 ROUNDS, AND YOU STILL END UP AT THE SAME END COST.

Actually..... in tests.... the steel case has been shown to be no harder than brass. And in some cases brass was harder

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

shep854 · #32 03-23-2017, 07:16 PM

In the video I posted, Tim explains the 'sticky chamber' issue; that it's chamber fouling due to combustion gases getting past the less ductile steel case, not the high-temperature lacquer.
My experience is 2-3000rd of steel and brass through my SU16. Finally, I had a brass case stick and ruined a cleaning rod driving it out. After seeing Tim's video, I gave the chamber a good scrub, and the rifle again ran faultlessly.

CBStuard · #33 03-29-2017, 08:14 AM

I have given up on steel case ammo. 18 yrs ago when we first started shooting we went through about 20 cases of wolf 9mm w/ no problems. So, 6 yrs ago when I got our first AR I bought a case of wolf. About the 4th mag it would start sticking in the chamber, so I always took some brass case w/ us to the range. 3 yrs ago got some tula 9mm and had a lot of no fires. Maybe one every 3 mags. One I didn't check carefully enough and we had a barrel crack lengthwise as there was still a bullet in there somewhere. Stupid and 100% my fault but I still have about 300 rnds of that tula that I keep forgetting to throw in the river. About 3 months ago I thought I would be super carefull and use up the tula in my M&P9c. somewhere in the 3rd mag, the case wouldn't extract. Grabbed my 3/16 brass rod I use for clearing out that problem in the AR and couldn't get it to dislodge. AT home I had to drill out the primer end of that case to get it to loosen up enough to remove. So wolf and tula have caused problems in 3 ARs, 4-5 Beretta 92s, and and M&P9c. I am done w/ steel ammo.

SWMP15Pks · #34 03-29-2017, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pisgah

As is usually the case when this topic comes up, it seems no one is interested in establishing exactly what is meant by "steel case" ammo. Is it ammo with a steel cartridge case, or ammo with a mild-steel-jacketed bullet?

Either way, the fact that literally billions of rounds of this type of ammo have been burned over the last 8 or 9 decades without any noticeable practical difference between this type or any other should suffice to convince the thinking man that there's not much to worry about, steel or no steel.

I think the definition here is less exact and more along the lines of ~~$230/1000 to your door. Or - 2/3 the cost of "brass".

BigDog48 · #35 03-29-2017, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lrmnut

Do any of you shoot steel case ammo in your M&P15 if so any
thing wrong or not.

I don't, nor do I do anything else that could cause premature wear like running the rifle dry or not cleaning it.

Common sense says steel on steel is harder on the rifle than steel on brass. To me it's not worth it to save a few bucks.

SWMP15Pks · #36 03-29-2017, 09:45 AM

I have to constantly remind myself that my PSX is a wear item. I want to wear it, so I can replace it, so I can upgrade it.

Guys n gals - there is no reason at all to treat an Armalite Rifle as if you would a Weatherby mark X .416R... The things are designed as wear items. They were INTENDED to be worn out, broken in the field, thrown in the mud, caked with burned propellant. This was the idea during design, testing, and subsequent adoption by the Army.

There is no part on the AR that is worth protecting. They are all replaceable. They are all mass produced! Even the most expensive 223/5.56 barrels are readily available to most average consumers. Reality check: the above is ABSOLUTELY true of the sport II grade parts, and these parts are as we discuss and cuss the purpose and value of steel cased ammunition getting cheaper by the minute.

My comment to the OP would be to go buy five cases of Wolf, shoot it up, go replace and upgrade it with tacticool parts. Then (wink) go buy yourself a BCM, or a DD, or a COLT (depending on your clique) and go shoot steel out of that one all the way to weapon proficiency. Then, go buy yourself another two S&W sport IIIs (get the gist?) and reload them with more wolf (or by that time maybe Winchesteel) and do what the AR is really intended for: Shoot the piss out of them! Because in the end, isn't that why we bought them in the first place?