Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > >


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-16-2017, 03:29 PM
bevans555's Avatar
bevans555 bevans555 is offline
Member
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Warner Robins, GA
Posts: 51
Likes: 46
Liked 19 Times in 11 Posts
Default Is 4 MOA dot size too big?

I'm looking to pick up a red dot sight for my sport 2 and am new to both AR's and red dots. I use a mossberg 500 for HD, and a 10/22 for target shooting/small game and plinking. I'm thinking the use for my AR is going to be plinking and SHTF.

I'm looking for a red dot for $200 or less. So far the 2 names that keep coming up in my research are Vortex and Primary Arms. I handled an AR inside my LGS that was equipped with a Vortex Strike Fire 2 and loved it. I like the warranty the brightness and the shape(tube length and mount) more than the primary arms micro dot.. however the vortex has a 4 MOA dot compared to a 2 MOA dot that the primary arms has. I have no first hand experience with primary arms. I do like the looks of the older Primary Arms M3 clone(looks similar to the strike fire 2), however I think its discontinued because I cant find any sites that sell them. Also people seem to talk well about the Bushnell TRS-25 which has a 3 MOA dot, but again I prefer the looks of the Vortex.

So, has anyone tried any of these sights? Are there any other red dots that you would recommend? Is 4 MOA dot size too large?

Thanks , and please post pics if you have any of these optics or one you would recommend.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-16-2017, 03:45 PM
Big Cholla Big Cholla is offline
SWCA Member
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 3,020
Likes: 4,538
Liked 3,940 Times in 1,383 Posts
Default

No experience with your named Red Dot sights, but lots of experience with Dot Sights. IMHO, for your AR 15 type rifle and even your 10/22, the 4 moa dot would be close to optimum. The smaller dots are good for benchrest shooting of small groups. They are harder and therefore time consuming to find when in a hurry to get a shot off. On a SD handgun, I would go for a 6 or even 8 moa dot. It would never shoot tight little groups off a bench, but would be just right when thing go 'thump in the night' within your home. .......

Please do a Range Report for us when you get a little experience with yours.............
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #3  
Old 04-16-2017, 03:46 PM
Gas tube Gas tube is offline
Member
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times in 5 Posts
Default

I have the vortex strikefire 2 and it has the 4 minute dot.. love the no questions asked warranty and can't beat the price comes with a co witness mount ..Is 4 MOA dot size too big?-img_4492-jpg
Attached Thumbnails
Is 4 MOA dot size too big?-img_4492-jpg  

Last edited by Gas tube; 04-16-2017 at 03:48 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #4  
Old 04-16-2017, 03:51 PM
AllAces's Avatar
AllAces AllAces is offline
Member
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 73
Likes: 4
Liked 9 Times in 6 Posts
Default

No dot is any good if it doesn't hold zero. MOA is minute of angle, that is the diameter the dot covers at a given yardage. One MOA covers approx. one inch at 100 yards, two inches at two hundred yards. So, a red dot that has an MOA of 4, the dot will appear to cover approx. 4 inches at 100 yards, 8 inches at two hundred yards. A lot depends on if you will be shooting from the bench, off hand, hunting and the distances. Moving the sight from one weapon to another will generally require the dot to be re-zeroed.
__________________
Not All Who Wander Are Lost
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #5  
Old 04-16-2017, 04:23 PM
Rastoff's Avatar
Rastoff Rastoff is offline
Member
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: So Cal (Near Edwards AFB)
Posts: 11,453
Likes: 1,677
Liked 10,626 Times in 4,349 Posts
Default

I have owned both the Vortex Strikefire and the PA AD-MDS. I returned the Strikefire and still have the AD-MDS.

The Strikefire had too much parallax error for me. Most people won't notice it and in fact don't check for it. So, it would probably work fine for you.

A 2MOA dot at the correct brightness is not any more difficult to pick up than a 4MOA dot on a rifle. This is because of the stock and cheek weld. On a pistol it's a completely different matter.

Therefore, I prefer the 2MOA dot. When I do take precision shots, the 2MOA is better.

Both companies have the same level of quality customer service. I'm a huge fan of Vortex and have two of their higher end scopes. However, when it comes to the low end red dots, the PA AD-MDS is the best I've personally used.
__________________
Freedom isn't free.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #6  
Old 04-16-2017, 04:26 PM
cyphertext cyphertext is online now
US Veteran
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Wylie, TX
Posts: 3,931
Likes: 860
Liked 2,969 Times in 1,631 Posts
Default

Never heard of anyone picking an optic based on looks... clarity of glass, size and clarity of dot, battery life, price... but never looks.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #7  
Old 04-16-2017, 04:45 PM
Rastoff's Avatar
Rastoff Rastoff is offline
Member
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: So Cal (Near Edwards AFB)
Posts: 11,453
Likes: 1,677
Liked 10,626 Times in 4,349 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyphertext View Post
Never heard of anyone picking an optic based on looks... clarity of glass, size and clarity of dot, battery life, price... but never looks.
Why not? In the end, everything else being equal, you have to live with it.

I have a friend who just bought a 1911. It came with really nice wood grip panels. Before he got it home, he swapped the grip panels for black ones. Why? Because he likes black. No other reason.

So, yeah, if the rest of the specs are the same, get the one that looks good to you. You're more likely to use it then.
__________________
Freedom isn't free.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #8  
Old 04-16-2017, 05:02 PM
bevans555's Avatar
bevans555 bevans555 is offline
Member
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Warner Robins, GA
Posts: 51
Likes: 46
Liked 19 Times in 11 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyphertext View Post
Never heard of anyone picking an optic based on looks... clarity of glass, size and clarity of dot, battery life, price... but never looks.

I havent picked one yet... thats why im asking questions.

If you re-read my post you'll see its says Ive handled the vortex in person and have no experience with the Primary Arms. You'll also read this will be for plinking.

They are both priced the same, supposedly comparable in clarity of glass and dot... the main difference that I can tell, just from reading forum reviews and watching youtube vids is limited lidetime warranty for vortex vs 1 year for PA, LOOKS and 2 MOA dot vs 4 MOA dot. Which is why this thread is titled "Is 4 MOA dot too big".


Do you have an opinion on the actual subject? Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-16-2017, 05:22 PM
ChattanoogaPhil's Avatar
ChattanoogaPhil ChattanoogaPhil is offline
Moderator
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 13,983
Likes: 7,060
Liked 18,379 Times in 5,422 Posts
Default

Small, light reliable.

The only thing I would prefer is the 4moa instead of the 2moa I have. My eyes don't resolve the 2moa dot well. 4moa is crisp to my eyes and faster for me. Actually, the Aimpoint 4moa is supposed to be closer to 3.5moa. I don't do any precision paper punching.

Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #10  
Old 04-16-2017, 05:24 PM
bevans555's Avatar
bevans555 bevans555 is offline
Member
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Warner Robins, GA
Posts: 51
Likes: 46
Liked 19 Times in 11 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by

The only thing I would prefer is the 4moa instead of the 2moa I have. My eyes don't resolve the 2moa dot well. 4moa is crisp to my eyes and faster for me.

[URL=http://s1270.photobucket.com/user/Pugsters/media/IMG_4389_zpsuonef3vb.jpg.html
[/URL]

Thank you, this is exactly the type of info I was looking for.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #11  
Old 04-16-2017, 06:53 PM
Pisgah Pisgah is offline
Member
Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Upstate SC
Posts: 1,747
Likes: 4
Liked 1,288 Times in 530 Posts
Default

To me, dot size really depends on how you're going to use it. For close work, 4MOA is not bad, but as the range increases things can get problematic. As long as hitting within 2-4 inches of where you want to hit is ok with you, no problem.
__________________
Pisgah
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #12  
Old 04-16-2017, 06:58 PM
okiegtrider's Avatar
okiegtrider okiegtrider is online now
Member
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,413
Likes: 1,757
Liked 2,401 Times in 755 Posts
Default

I went down this same road a year or so ago, doing much the same research on the net that you are, including, checking around with this board. And like you, found myself looking hard at both Vortex and PA offerings. Both Vortex and PA have great reputations for product support.

In the end I went with the Strikefire II. It is a good budget optic that fits well the criteria you set out. The 4 MOA dot is not too big at all and should work well on your AR.

You'll find this same discussion in several threads on this forum. Strikefire II has a good reputation and is generally well regarded.

No regrets here with my decision.
__________________
America First
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #13  
Old 04-16-2017, 07:13 PM
ChattanoogaPhil's Avatar
ChattanoogaPhil ChattanoogaPhil is offline
Moderator
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 13,983
Likes: 7,060
Liked 18,379 Times in 5,422 Posts
Default

Midway has the Aimpoint Pro for $437 and offering a $50 gift certificate with purchase. $50 Code 50GCAIM42017. Free shipping too. $387 is a pretty good price.

Aimpoint PRO Red Dot Sight 30mm Tube 1x 2 MOA Dot Picatinny-Style
Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Like Post:
  #14  
Old 04-16-2017, 08:48 PM
cyphertext cyphertext is online now
US Veteran
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Wylie, TX
Posts: 3,931
Likes: 860
Liked 2,969 Times in 1,631 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
Why not? In the end, everything else being equal, you have to live with it.

I have a friend who just bought a 1911. It came with really nice wood grip panels. Before he got it home, he swapped the grip panels for black ones. Why? Because he likes black. No other reason.

So, yeah, if the rest of the specs are the same, get the one that looks good to you. You're more likely to use it then.
If you are looking at identical cars, except one is red and one is black, then sure... get the one that you like the look of more...

But he is talking about optics and the specs aren't the same... different size dots and different battery life come into play in the models that the OP mentioned... but hey, whatever. Bet the next question will be how to remove the front sight.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #15  
Old 04-16-2017, 09:29 PM
bevans555's Avatar
bevans555 bevans555 is offline
Member
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Warner Robins, GA
Posts: 51
Likes: 46
Liked 19 Times in 11 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyphertext View Post
If you are looking at identical cars, except one is red and one is black, then sure... get the one that you like the look of more...

But he is talking about optics and the specs aren't the same... different size dots and different battery life come into play in the models that the OP mentioned... but hey, whatever. Bet the next question will be how to remove the front sight.

I'm here researching, asking about Dot size so I can make an informed decision. Battery life isnt as important to me, as this is just a range toy for me and I can buy batteries. I'm not going into battle and this isnt a duty weapon. You've commented twice now in this thread, but havent actually commented on the subject. Do you actually have a preference in dot size? If so, please contribute to the thread... If not, please move along.

Thanks
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #16  
Old 04-16-2017, 09:55 PM
SWMP15Pks SWMP15Pks is offline
Member
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Kansas
Posts: 112
Likes: 220
Liked 57 Times in 39 Posts
Default

I have both. My humble opinion would be to get the 2 moa dot unless you have some other issue like Phil mentions above. The bigger dots are easier ( a little ) to acquire target hold with.

You mention that this will be a range gun however, and I find that I always end up trying to get that little dot to hit something smaller than I did last time I went out. I try to make smaller groups, or I try to shoot from farther away, etc. The smaller dot does make a difference pretty quickly beyond 100yds.

That being said, I (and my friends) the last time we had a rangefest wound up putting the 4moa on and seeing who could make the smallest 10 shot groups at 100. This was absolutely the most fun we've had so far with the AR at that distance. And surprisingly enough, it will train you in skills that you don't usually notice at 100 yards. Breathing and heartbeat come into play much more so than you'd think!

From my personal experience, it sounds like you're right in the PA MDS wheelhouse. Primary Arms PA-MDS, and the MD-RGBII are great. I've got both, and aside from a little (very) fit and finish, battery life, and price, they seem identical. The MDS I have is 2moa. I've also got an RGB so I can say without guesswork that they're both fine. The RGB has the added benefit of being about $80 cheaper. In my case, I bought myself the MDS, my wife loves me so she bought me the RGB and it still sits in its box. One day I may need to send the MDS in for work... wink.

You will also want to get a good mount, as this makes it much more convenient to remove/swap optics. I use a pair of ADM QD absolute co-witness mounts - one on each. RTZ is flawless so far... If you don't think you'll remove it then I would still advise buying a good mount. They pay off.

My 4moa dot is no longer available from PA, but it still works like it always has, exactly as it should. I am no friend to my rifles/dots, they are tools, and I use them as such. I train, play, and practice with all my dots, and find that for lane range use, the 2moa is best, CQB style is easier with the 4moa.

Honestly, everything seems to be moving toward the 2moa dot, so unless you think you want the 4moa, I'd say go with a 2.

linky: Shopping
__________________
Here, a grain of salt.

Last edited by SWMP15Pks; 04-16-2017 at 09:56 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #17  
Old 04-16-2017, 10:15 PM
bevans555's Avatar
bevans555 bevans555 is offline
Member
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Warner Robins, GA
Posts: 51
Likes: 46
Liked 19 Times in 11 Posts
Default

SWMP15Pks- Thanks for the detailed reply. I was looking at the Fortis mount (F1 , I believe) if I go the PA route. I do like the Fortis mount(seems more secure) over the vortex 1 bolt mount... but the PA dot plus the cost of the Fortis mount gets me very close to the price of the Aimpoint linked above.

I recently started wearing glasses but my eyes arent too bad. It sounds like either 2 or 4 MOA dots will serve me well for my purposes(20-80yds). Thanks for the info.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-16-2017, 10:29 PM
cyphertext cyphertext is online now
US Veteran
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Wylie, TX
Posts: 3,931
Likes: 860
Liked 2,969 Times in 1,631 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bevans555 View Post
I'm here researching, asking about Dot size so I can make an informed decision. Battery life isnt as important to me, as this is just a range toy for me and I can buy batteries. I'm not going into battle and this isnt a duty weapon. You've commented twice now in this thread, but havent actually commented on the subject. Do you actually have a preference in dot size? If so, please contribute to the thread... If not, please move along.

Thanks
My second comment was not to you... Neat thing about forums... sometimes the conversation and comments are not just to you.

As for your question on dot size... it depends on what you will be using the rifle for, as well as personal preference. As has already been stated, a 4 MOA dot is easier to pick up quickly than a 2 MOA dot... but the 4 MOA dot covers more of the target. If you are shooting man size targets at 100 yards, not a big deal, but if shooting aluminum cans at 100 yards, you may need to change how you have the POA and POI situated within your dot... I have mine where POI is center of my dot. Others set POI to be the top edge of the dot so that they can try to be more precise... however I don't look at a red dot as a precision tool, more of a quick target acquisition tool.

There are also red dot sights that offer different reticles than just a dot. Like a small dot centered in a larger circle, cross hairs, or even a chevron with bullet drop compensation. One of these may be better for your use. So, it isn't that simple to answer your question...

I also saw where you said the rifle could be used for "SHTF". If so, battery life is probably more important than dot size... doesn't matter if it is a 2 MOA dot or 4 MOA dot if the battery is dead when "SHTF".
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #19  
Old 04-16-2017, 11:11 PM
Kodiakco's Avatar
Kodiakco Kodiakco is offline
Member
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Fayetteville, NC
Posts: 512
Likes: 48
Liked 390 Times in 178 Posts
Default

You might also want to consider a nice 1-4x or 1-6x scope. I see your limit is $200 BUT the Vortex 1-6x Strike Eagle is under $400. It comes with an illuminated reticle too. I am using one on my M&P 15OR for 3-gun and really like it.

As far as dot size goes, my first red dot was a TRS-25. Ive moved it from gun to gun over the last several years. It's held up very well. On my competition gun, an M&P C.O.R.E., I currently have a Burris FFIII with an 8 MOA dot. I find the smaller dot better for the rifle and a larger dot for my pistol. Hope this helps.

Sent from my SM-T377V using Tapatalk
__________________
Improvise, Adapt, Overcome
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-16-2017, 11:48 PM
Flash_80 Flash_80 is offline
Member
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 249
Likes: 142
Liked 99 Times in 63 Posts
Default

I like the 2MOA, but I also keep my guns in the safe and shoot them in my yard and have zero thought towards being prepared to fend for my life with them. Yeah, I've got them if that ever happened, and of course not all are in the safe as well, but my point to that is that I'm not making purchases with that scenario in mind. The next guy could be the exact opposite.

I've had red dots on rifles or handguns for a while, normally on the lower end of the price point, and I'm normally target shooting or something anyway. The smaller dot is going to give me a smaller aiming point. I can cover a golf ball thats laying at 50yds with the 2MOA and have a good chance of hitting it. With a 4MOA, its going to be more covered up, maybe even completely eclipsed by the dot. If I'm shooting an 8" plate at 100yds, either one will work, though I'd be more precise with the smaller dot. But thats what I use mine for and the next guy is going to be different, so really it just boils down to what you're wanting it for and what you'll be satisfied with.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #21  
Old 04-17-2017, 12:45 AM
Brian in Oregon Brian in Oregon is offline
Member
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 681
Likes: 102
Liked 899 Times in 292 Posts
Default

In my opinion:

Dot size should decrease as distance increases.

Dot size should decrease as target size decreases.

Larger dots acquire faster, smaller dots are more precise.

Smaller dots may have to be run a bit brighter than a large dot for faster target acquisition.

---

I've used 1 MOA red dots (the center dot on an EOTech) for varmints out to 100 yards. Have had no problems taking head shots on ground squirrels with an AR15.

I don't care for larger dots for varmints, small game or precision work. For close quarters a larger dot works well.

If you are murdering tin cans at close range, dot size is pretty much immaterial.

Consider what use you will put the gun, cartridge and dot to, and go from there.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #22  
Old 04-17-2017, 12:47 AM
Tinhack's Avatar
Tinhack Tinhack is offline
Member
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: South Texas
Posts: 305
Likes: 222
Liked 359 Times in 160 Posts
Default

My Sport II is less than a month old and I already have three sight options with a fourth on the way. Personally, I'd cheap-out on the red dot and go with glass optics. You'll have more fun cutting the bulls eye out of targets at the range with glass. If you feel you must have a red dot for HD, put it on when you get back home but for my HD uses, I have a laser. I just don't feel you'll have the time to acquire a site picture you expect with a red dot. And with a laser, all you have to do is point.

I pulled the rear site off my Sport. Here's the list of my sites.

1. Compact red laser with remote. It stays mounted with the remote on the hand grip. It's zeroed for 50'.
2. ATN X-Sight II 5-20 w/QD. For hogs and coyotes at night.
3. Nikon P223 3-9x40 w/QD. For hunting and plinking.
4. Pinty 4-pattern red/green reticle (1-8 MOA) w/QD. Because somebody says you need a red dot for an AR.
__________________
Si vis pacem para bellum.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04-17-2017, 01:03 AM
Rastoff's Avatar
Rastoff Rastoff is offline
Member
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: So Cal (Near Edwards AFB)
Posts: 11,453
Likes: 1,677
Liked 10,626 Times in 4,349 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinhack View Post
I just don't feel you'll have the time to acquire a site picture you expect with a red dot.
But that's the whole point of the red dot. You don't have to line up the sights. Just put the dot on the target and press the trigger. There is no sighting system that's faster.
__________________
Freedom isn't free.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 04-17-2017, 01:40 AM
bloodlord77 bloodlord77 is offline
Member
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 93
Likes: 1
Liked 30 Times in 18 Posts
Default

Save a little more money, and get the Aimpoint Pro 2 moa optic. You will never look back. I first bought a Sightmark tactical red dot with a 5 moa dot. That was fine for really close range, but at 100 yds and beyond, the accuracy was all over the place. So, I bit the bullet and bought the Aimpoint Pro. The 2 moa dot is perfectly fine for fast target aqquisition up close, and Much easier making consistant shots at 200+ yards. It would be better to spend $430 and be completely satisfied with your investment, than to spend $200 and regret it.
__________________
The Penetration Channel
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #25  
Old 04-17-2017, 12:01 PM
Kadonny's Avatar
Kadonny Kadonny is offline
Member
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,291
Likes: 686
Liked 573 Times in 352 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
But that's the whole point of the red dot. You don't have to line up the sights. Just put the dot on the target and press the trigger. There is no sighting system that's faster.
Well techncially the laser is faster in that you don't even need to bring the rifle up to your eyes to hit your target (assuming you can see the laser on the target). This is great for indoor home defense but becomes more problematic for outdoor scenarios.
__________________
Too many Smiths to list now.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #26  
Old 04-17-2017, 12:52 PM
bevans555's Avatar
bevans555 bevans555 is offline
Member
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Warner Robins, GA
Posts: 51
Likes: 46
Liked 19 Times in 11 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodlord77 View Post
It would be better to spend $430 and be completely satisfied with your investment, than to spend $200 and regret it.

True... I think im gonna hold off on an optic right now, keep researching and look into an Aimpoint or Eotech.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #27  
Old 04-17-2017, 01:35 PM
BAM-BAM BAM-BAM is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Western Pa.
Posts: 7,297
Likes: 154
Liked 8,046 Times in 3,852 Posts
Default

I'm a Aimpoint user............... the PRO model at about $400 is a great deal for the money........ as I understand it the only difference from the Mil-spec versions which go for $200 or so more are the electronics (Gen III vs Gen IV) that "only" gives a battery life of around 30,000 hours vs. 50,000.

I didn't pay a great deal of attention as I don't own any; but IIRC the Eotechs were being recalled because they weren't holding zero ..........

"Fast and dirty" out to 100yds I'd go 4MOA ......attempting precision shooting or ranges over 100 yds go with the 2MOA. IMO true Precision shooting requires a good scope........

A fun little scope I've used for years is the Weaver 1-3X20.... I understand they are/were popular with "Three Gun" shooters...... just under $200 last time I looked.

Given it's a range toy only you might want to check out C-more red dots....IIRC you can change dot size
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #28  
Old 04-17-2017, 02:14 PM
cyphertext cyphertext is online now
US Veteran
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Wylie, TX
Posts: 3,931
Likes: 860
Liked 2,969 Times in 1,631 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bevans555 View Post
True... I think im gonna hold off on an optic right now, keep researching and look into an Aimpoint or Eotech.
This is a good idea, even if you don't go with the higher end optic... shoot the rifle with the irons and see how you will really use it. Then you can decide on type of optic, either magnified or not... and what reticle is best suited to your use.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #29  
Old 04-17-2017, 02:41 PM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is online now
Member
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 21,222
Likes: 24,925
Liked 17,006 Times in 8,501 Posts
Default All I can say....

All I can say is 'What are you expecting'. Bench rest resolution or fast target acquisition? Also, usually a red dot is used for close up shooting. Close in, the 4 moa translates to about an inch. That seems right good to me, but you ponder and I hope you come up with the most suitable for you.
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #30  
Old 04-17-2017, 05:04 PM
Pro2nd's Avatar
Pro2nd Pro2nd is offline
Member
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 179
Likes: 261
Liked 132 Times in 72 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bevans555 View Post
I'm thinking the use for my AR is going to be plinking and SHTF.
(Your very first post)..

better part of 30 replies later, still being ask, what do you plan to use your AR for....

LOL.. Sorry, couldn't resist..
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #31  
Old 04-17-2017, 08:28 PM
jkasch's Avatar
jkasch jkasch is offline
Member
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Michigan
Posts: 121
Likes: 37
Liked 86 Times in 30 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadonny View Post
Well techncially the laser is faster in that you don't even need to bring the rifle up to your eyes to hit your target (assuming you can see the laser on the target). This is great for indoor home defense but becomes more problematic for outdoor scenarios.
I'm pretty sure you're confusing a laser with a red dot. You can't see the red dot if you don't look through the optic.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 04-17-2017, 11:46 PM
cyphertext cyphertext is online now
US Veteran
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Wylie, TX
Posts: 3,931
Likes: 860
Liked 2,969 Times in 1,631 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pro2nd View Post
(Your very first post)..

better part of 30 replies later, still being ask, what do you plan to use your AR for....

LOL.. Sorry, couldn't resist..
Very generic terms... plinking means different things to different people. Some think of plinking as any shooting that is casual and not competition, others think of plinking as shooting dirt clods and tin cans... and nobody agrees on what SHTF means!
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 04-18-2017, 12:32 AM
Flash_80 Flash_80 is offline
Member
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 249
Likes: 142
Liked 99 Times in 63 Posts
Default

Dogs and Cats living together.. Mass Hysteria!!!
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #34  
Old 04-18-2017, 11:03 AM
Pro2nd's Avatar
Pro2nd Pro2nd is offline
Member
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 179
Likes: 261
Liked 132 Times in 72 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyphertext View Post
Very generic terms... plinking means different things to different people. Some think of plinking as any shooting that is casual and not competition, others think of plinking as shooting dirt clods and tin cans... and nobody agrees on what SHTF means!
Whats the difference?
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 04-18-2017, 11:32 AM
Shoo2tr Shoo2tr is offline
Member
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 149
Likes: 12
Liked 86 Times in 45 Posts
Default 2 or 4 MOA all personal preference

My preference is 2 MOA simply because I do not want to give up accuracy at say distances of 75-100 yards. Shooting for pure accuracy at 100 yards I turn down the brightness until I can barely see the dot. For close-in CQB or speed work I dial the brightness way up. This is what works for me, others may beg to differ.

As far as Red Dots: My current red dot of choice is the Tru Glo which is simply a re-branded Holosun 503G. 2 MOA with tons of features, long battery life, tap to turn on, adjustable auto-off, lots of brightness settings. It is an Aimpoint T1 clone and can be had for $105-115. I have four True Glo Red dots that reside on AK-47, .300 Blackout, 5.56, and 9mm. All have held zero perfectly and have been 100% reliable and will not stretch your budget. It's a lot of red dot for the $. It also comes with a high and low mounting base which is decent enough.

Last edited by Shoo2tr; 04-18-2017 at 11:34 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #36  
Old 04-18-2017, 01:43 PM
cyphertext cyphertext is online now
US Veteran
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Wylie, TX
Posts: 3,931
Likes: 860
Liked 2,969 Times in 1,631 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pro2nd View Post
Whats the difference?
Plinking to me refers to just playing around without any real purpose other than fun with no real restrictions... thus the tin cans and dirt clod targets. Keeping a tin can bouncing across the ground is plinking. This activity is not done at a range, but at an informal spot such as the back 40 at my in-law's.

Shooting at a true range, with formal rules, restricted targets, and range safety officers is not plinking to me. If I go to the range, it is for a purpose, i.e. to zero a rifle or shoot a known distance range.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #37  
Old 04-18-2017, 03:04 PM
Pro2nd's Avatar
Pro2nd Pro2nd is offline
Member
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 179
Likes: 261
Liked 132 Times in 72 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyphertext View Post
Plinking to me refers to just playing around without any real purpose other than fun with no real restrictions... thus the tin cans and dirt clod targets. Keeping a tin can bouncing across the ground is plinking. This activity is not done at a range, but at an informal spot such as the back 40 at my in-law's.

Shooting at a true range, with formal rules, restricted targets, and range safety officers is not plinking to me. If I go to the range, it is for a purpose, i.e. to zero a rifle or shoot a known distance range.
well, He did say he was going to use his AR for plinking right?

Plinking refers to informal target shooting done for pleasure typically at non-standard targets such as tin cans, logs, soda bottles, or any other homemade or naturally occurring target.

Judging by his over all post, He doesn't sound new to the term "Plinking" so I just thought it was a given that he meant what he wrote, thats all..
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 04-18-2017, 04:27 PM
cyphertext cyphertext is online now
US Veteran
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Wylie, TX
Posts: 3,931
Likes: 860
Liked 2,969 Times in 1,631 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pro2nd View Post
well, He did say he was going to use his AR for plinking right?

Plinking refers to informal target shooting done for pleasure typically at non-standard targets such as tin cans, logs, soda bottles, or any other homemade or naturally occurring target.

Judging by his over all post, He doesn't sound new to the term "Plinking" so I just thought it was a given that he meant what he wrote, thats all..
That is what plinking means to you, and wikipedia... but that is not what is meant by all. Some folks will refer to shooting paper at the range as "plinking". Plinking to me is typically done at ranges of 40 yards or less, and with a .22lr. Since he is asking about dot sizes, I am assuming he is shooting at ranges of 100 yards or greater, where dot size starts to make a difference.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 04-18-2017, 04:38 PM
BAM-BAM BAM-BAM is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Western Pa.
Posts: 7,297
Likes: 154
Liked 8,046 Times in 3,852 Posts
Default

Plinking.........

there was a time ..not so long ago..... that I would take a stock 10/22 with a 1-3x20 scope and "plink" at 100yds..... to challenge myself and see what I could do!!
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #40  
Old 04-18-2017, 05:35 PM
Pro2nd's Avatar
Pro2nd Pro2nd is offline
Member
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 179
Likes: 261
Liked 132 Times in 72 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyphertext View Post
That is what plinking means to you, and wikipedia... but that is not what is meant by all. Some folks will refer to shooting paper at the range as "plinking". Plinking to me is typically done at ranges of 40 yards or less, and with a .22lr. Since he is asking about dot sizes, I am assuming he is shooting at ranges of 100 yards or greater, where dot size starts to make a difference.

And apparently you as well.. hence your comment prior saying..

"Plinking to me refers to just playing around without any real purpose other than fun with no real restrictions... thus the tin cans and dirt clod targets. Keeping a tin can bouncing across the ground is plinking. This activity is not done at a range, but at an informal spot such as the back 40 at my in-law's.""


that said, it seems were are down to a distance issue when it comes to what people mean when they say "Plinking"... you feel that is limited to 40 yards, but others may not see a limitation on distance..

I have honestly never heard anyone, reference plinking as being something limited to 40 yards or less??

Last edited by Pro2nd; 04-18-2017 at 05:37 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 04-18-2017, 11:15 PM
cyphertext cyphertext is online now
US Veteran
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Wylie, TX
Posts: 3,931
Likes: 860
Liked 2,969 Times in 1,631 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pro2nd View Post
And apparently you as well.. hence your comment prior saying..

"Plinking to me refers to just playing around without any real purpose other than fun with no real restrictions... thus the tin cans and dirt clod targets. Keeping a tin can bouncing across the ground is plinking. This activity is not done at a range, but at an informal spot such as the back 40 at my in-law's.""


that said, it seems were are down to a distance issue when it comes to what people mean when they say "Plinking"... you feel that is limited to 40 yards, but others may not see a limitation on distance..

I have honestly never heard anyone, reference plinking as being something limited to 40 yards or less??
Yes, plinking to me is done with a .22lr... make a tin can dance type of thing... I plink with $.04 per round ammo, not $.30 per round ammo.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #42  
Old 04-18-2017, 11:51 PM
Pro2nd's Avatar
Pro2nd Pro2nd is offline
Member
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 179
Likes: 261
Liked 132 Times in 72 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyphertext View Post
Yes, plinking to me is done with a .22lr... make a tin can dance type of thing... I plink with $.04 per round ammo, not $.30 per round ammo.
I hear what your saying, but obviously not everyone only plinks with 22lr's..
Hence the OP poster said he picked up an AR to plink with etc..
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 04-21-2017, 03:10 PM
hugger-4641 hugger-4641 is offline
Member
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 46
Likes: 9
Liked 12 Times in 11 Posts
Default

I plink @200 yrd with my Ar-15 and my 10-22, but since .223 ammo is $6/20rd and .22Lr is $6/100rds, I end up putting more rounds thru the 10-22.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #44  
Old 04-23-2017, 12:45 AM
C J C J is offline
Member
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 549
Likes: 141
Liked 249 Times in 149 Posts
Default

I have both the PA Advanced model and the Strikefire II. I bought the Vortex first. I like it a lot. But the dot is too big for long range shooting. A rifle like the AR is capable of shooting fairly tight groups at 400 yards. I'm talking minute of man groups. A 4 MOA dot will just about cover a man at that distance. You can't shoot what you can't see. I have the PA on a shotgun and the Vortex on my AR. I am seriously considering swapping them because the larger dot on the Vortex shouldn't affect the shotgun but it does the AR.

Quote:
The Strikefire had too much parallax error for me. Most people won't notice it and in fact don't check for it. So, it would probably work fine for you.
That's strange. I had the exact opposite experience. I see much more parallax in my PA but only at shorter distances. But those are shotgun distances. I always check for parallax issues on any type of sight or scope. And the PA was borderline acceptable IMO.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 04-24-2017, 08:16 AM
CBStuard CBStuard is offline
Member
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 177
Likes: 0
Liked 55 Times in 44 Posts
Default

I prefer the smaller dot size so I'd go w/ the 2MOA.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 04-24-2017, 10:17 AM
ChattanoogaPhil's Avatar
ChattanoogaPhil ChattanoogaPhil is offline
Moderator
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 13,983
Likes: 7,060
Liked 18,379 Times in 5,422 Posts
Default

This is a cheap 1x red dot Tasco I've had for quite a while. Notice the dot barely budges even at the most extreme edges of the tube.

The amount of parallax in the worst 1x red dot optic to ever be manufactured on planet Earth would far exceed the needs for a shotgun. Concerns about parallax with a 1x red dot on an AR are highly overrated as well.

Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #47  
Old 04-24-2017, 10:20 AM
hdrolling's Avatar
hdrolling hdrolling is offline
US Veteran
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Grays Creek, NC
Posts: 163
Likes: 12
Liked 88 Times in 54 Posts
Default

2 MOA for me, I also like aimpoint. But reading the reviews I wouldn't hesitate to get the PA optic.

If you do decide on the 2 MOA PA give us a review, I just added a 16" BCM to my collection and trying to decide on a PA to save money or just getting and Aimpoint H1/T1.

I do have a vortex scope that is great so I'm sure their red dot is fine, just seen better reviews on the PA version.
__________________
M&P15 sport II, Retired Army
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 04-24-2017, 11:41 AM
ChattanoogaPhil's Avatar
ChattanoogaPhil ChattanoogaPhil is offline
Moderator
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 13,983
Likes: 7,060
Liked 18,379 Times in 5,422 Posts
Default

For you Vortex guys or those considering purchase...

Just popped up on my email from Palmetto-- SPARC AR for only $139 with $60 off coupon code = SPARC. Free shipping too. Never seen a delivered price this low.

Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #49  
Old 04-24-2017, 12:58 PM
C J C J is offline
Member
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 549
Likes: 141
Liked 249 Times in 149 Posts
Default

Quote:
The amount of parallax in the worst 1x red dot optic to ever be manufactured on planet Earth would far exceed the needs for a shotgun.
I wasn't actually concerned about it. It just came up in conversation and I pointed out what I saw. It's habit with me to check for parallax issues on anything. I have no problem with the PA having some parallax because it is mounted on a shotgun. AR's are a different story though. It can matter but only if you're trying to shoot for extreme accuracy. That is unless the parallax is just ridiculously bad.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 04-24-2017, 02:50 PM
diggler1833's Avatar
diggler1833 diggler1833 is offline
Member
Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big? Is 4 MOA dot size too big?  
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: NC
Posts: 186
Likes: 147
Liked 481 Times in 91 Posts
Default

This is that question where there is no "right answer" as people's needs and eyes are different.

Some people with a lot more intelligence than me determined that our average engagement distance in urban environments (militarily speaking) is about 19 meters. Taking that into account, I don't think that your SHTF 4 MOA dot will hinder your performance much. There are also lots of people who - with a little training - hit man-sized targets regularly at some pretty good distances with a 4 MOA dot.

Personally, my eyes are still good enough to pick up a 1MOA dot quickly and repeatedly. I also like the fact that I have a little finer bead should I need it. It is for those reasons why my home defense AR15 is equipped with an EOTech. Kind of hard to miss that big ring anyways.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Size of Sear for M&P 40 Full size? marcopolo984 Smith & Wesson M&P Pistols 0 02-18-2015 01:26 PM
M&P45 Full Size, Apex DCAEK, Warren Tactical Sights M&P45 Full Size ***$480 SHIPPED** RadioActivity GUNS - For Sale or Trade 1 10-06-2013 01:42 PM
Cylinder throat size Vs Bullet size? MDMarauder Reloading 3 03-12-2012 10:28 PM
4013 size vs 3913 size. UCLALAW Smith & Wesson Semi-Auto Pistols 9 03-04-2011 02:08 AM
Neck size vs full size for 223 in AR15 question Rule3 Reloading 6 04-05-2009 01:42 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:39 PM.


S-W Forum, LLC 2000-2015
Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)