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Old 04-28-2017, 06:44 PM
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1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate  
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Default 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate

We haven't jumped down this rabbit hole in a while...

The 1:7, 1:8 and 1:9 rifling twist rates are the most common among modern ARs. All three are available on current model M&P15s.

I'm sure this has been discussed ad nauseam on many forums, but has a consensus been reached? Is one better than another? Is one more accurate? One more reliable? Does one last longer? Do you care?
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Old 04-28-2017, 06:48 PM
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1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate  
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All of my barrels I get from armalite since they're close to me are 1:7, they seem just as good as my friends stag with a 1:8. Both are just as accurate, chalk me up for the I don't care category.
(Edit) I've also never shot out a barrel on a 1:7 twist.. and I'm talking I've beat the daylights out of my first m15 to the point where if the barrel were to be ***** it wouldn't surprise me at all but alas she keeps spitting rounds on target accurately.

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Old 04-28-2017, 08:37 PM
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1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post



I'm sure this has been discussed ad nauseam on many forums, but has a consensus been reached? Is one better than another? Is one more accurate? One more reliable? Does one last longer? Do you care?


There will never be a consensus which is why you see all three still in production. In the end it depends on what type of round you want to use for your intended purpose.
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Old 04-28-2017, 10:13 PM
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1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate  
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All depends on the bullet. Slower the twist, the lighter the bullet. More on twists etc here.

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Old 04-28-2017, 10:19 PM
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I can't really add to this. It depends on what bullet weights you want to shoot as to what barrel would be best and even then; not all barrels, even of the same make and model, are created equally. What one rifle likes best, the next rifle of the same exact make and model and all other things being the same, may not like it.

In some ways, it like the pistol caliber debate. I don't think there will even be an agreement.
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Old 04-29-2017, 12:51 PM
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1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate  
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Generally speaking 1:9 good for 55 grain 1:8 55-62 grain 1:7 62 grain and up. That's not to say you can't shoot any grain out of any twist barrel, but there is an optimal twist for a given bullet weight for stabilization. I'm giving a very simplistic version of this.
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Old 04-29-2017, 01:00 PM
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1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate  
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Quote:
Rastoff wrote:
Do you care?
Not really.

For the vast majority of shooters it won't make a difference.

My 1:12 Mini-14 stabilizes 60 grain bullets out to 200 yards just as well as my 1:9 M&P-15 and I don't shoot anything heavier.

As to durability, simple physics will tell you that the stress of imparting a faster rotation (i.e. smaller number in the twist ratio) is going to cause greater wear than imparting a slower rotation. This would be accelerated using bi-metal rather than gilding metal jacketed bullets, but, this will be meaningless to most owners since they will never use the rifle enough to shoot out the barrel.
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Old 04-29-2017, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtsandman View Post
I can't really add to this. It depends on what bullet weights you want to shoot as to what barrel would be best and even then; not all barrels, even of the same make and model, are created equally. What one rifle likes best, the next rifle of the same exact make and model and all other things being the same, may not like it.

In some ways, it like the pistol caliber debate. I don't think there will even be an agreement.
I looked at different ammo in different twist rates and basically found it all up to the individual rifle barrel on a particular AR ..

Like you said what one likes another may not even if set up the identical way .. and a bullet weight that isn't suppose to be as accurate in the twist rate on yours may well out shoot other weights ..

Can any one explain why ??
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Old 04-29-2017, 03:46 PM
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1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate  
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No expert, but would hazard a guess that barrel harmonics has to play a factor. Since the barrel vibrates, if the bullet exits the barrel at the same point in the vibration every time, you'll get tight groups.
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Old 04-29-2017, 06:26 PM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
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Several years back, the NRA did comparative tests with multiple firearms. The 1-9 twist won the accuracy test with all except the long, heavy bullets like the 77 gr SMK. The twist won't stabilize that load (or the 75 gr Hornaday plastic tipped bullet).

Yes, the bullet has to be both long & heavy. I've loaded some 55 gr Barnes RRLP bullets that are 55 gr and over 1 inch long. They stabilize just fine at 2920 f/s from a 1-9 16 inch barrel.

I've got a 1-10 barrel that will shoot 69 gr SMKs very well, 75 gr Hornaday HPBT keyhole at very close range. On the other hand, the 1-9 shoots the Hornaday bullet extremely well.

I can buy the theory that the faster twist leads to faster barrel wear, I'm just not sure most folks will ever fire enough ammo fast enough to really see a difference. If you're into multi mag dumps on a regular basis, maybe.

So, if you have some need-real or perceived- to shoot 77 gr SMKs (forget the military coding for the load) or similar loads, get the 1-7 or 1-8. Or, if you just gotta be mil-spec.

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Old 04-29-2017, 06:34 PM
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1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate  
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Lots of talk about longevity. How long should a barrel last?

I have over 3K through one rifle and it still shoots sub MOA. How long can I expect it to last?
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Old 04-29-2017, 07:03 PM
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1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate  
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Why you wanna make us put our "thinkin caps" on over the weekend???




Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff
Do you care?
Nope...

...thanks for askin though




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Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
How long should a barrel last?
10K+.....vids on YT of guys killin them on purpose just to answer this question. Check em out



Hope your havin as great a weekend as I...
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Old 04-29-2017, 08:11 PM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apollo99 View Post
Generally speaking 1:9 good for 55 grain 1:8 55-62 grain 1:7 62 grain and up. That's not to say you can't shoot any grain out of any twist barrel, but there is an optimal twist for a given bullet weight for stabilization. I'm giving a very simplistic version of this.
I always wonder why the Internet tends to generate grossly overspinning bullets, especially in .223.

A 55 grain flatbase spitzer has been stabilized by a 14 twist with excellent accuracy for several decades now, certainly the 1958 .222 Magnum the .223 is based on and no doubt a bunch of earlier wildcats.
The Pentagon found a 12 twist needed for the 55 grain boattail in cold air.

The 62 grain SS109 partial steel core bullet does just fine in a 9 twist, as do some 75 grain lead core bullets.

The only thing in general use that demands the fast fast fast 7 twist of the M16 and M4 is the very long tracer bullet.

Target shooters debate over the advantages of the 7.5, 7.7, and 8 twists for their 75-82 grain boattails.


Barrel life depends on what you are calling "life." Shoot at tin cans and foreigners at moderate range... 10000 rounds. Shoot for X count at 600 yards, maybe 4000. Shoot for the small X ring of the F class target, maybe 2500.
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Old 04-29-2017, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apollo99 View Post
Generally speaking 1:9 good for 55 grain 1:8 55-62 grain 1:7 62 grain and up. That's not to say you can't shoot any grain out of any twist barrel, but there is an optimal twist for a given bullet weight for stabilization. I'm giving a very simplistic version of this.
I always wonder why the Internet tends to generate grossly overspinning bullets, especially in .223.

A 55 grain flatbase spitzer has been stabilized by a 14 twist with excellent accuracy for several decades now, certainly the 1958 .222 Magnum the .223 is based on and no doubt a bunch of earlier wildcats.
The Pentagon found a 12 twist needed for the 55 grain boattail in cold air.
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Old 04-29-2017, 08:14 PM
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With the "recent improvements" why can I still not edit a post?
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Old 04-29-2017, 08:50 PM
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..................
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Old 04-30-2017, 12:57 PM
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1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate  
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Any comparisons done should take into account all variables like harmonics, barrel length, etc. etc.. The list of variables is going to be long. And then there are the intangibles that we would all love to learn how to fix. One barrel made on the same line as another barrel may perform differently. Good quality control keeps that sort of thing to a minimum but it's still there even on the best barrels.

Absent any hard data on this question I don't see how we can draw a conclusion. As someone else said different tests have produced different results. This is a tough question really. There isn't a whole lot of difference in these twist rates. But some things have become accepted as consensus like the idea that it takes a faster twist rate to stabilize anything over 75 gr and that includes most 75 gr bullets too.

So until someone produces a comprehensive study (the kind the gun makers don't like to do because they keep people from doing their own experiments which means more money for them) I will grab my popcorn and take a seat and keep my 2 cents.
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Old 04-30-2017, 04:13 PM
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To me, it doesn't matter. I will only shoot 55 gr. ammo anyway (Unless there is an extremely insane low price on other weight rounds).
Now, if I HAD to choose a twist, I would choose 1:7 twist.
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Old 04-30-2017, 09:23 PM
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1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate  
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I have two carbines. Both chrome, 1-9 and 1-7 twist.

They both shoot about the same with 55/62gr. I'll never be shooting 45gr but maybe 77gr though I doubt it. So I suppose if I had to pick one I'd chose 1-7, but for my current use twist rate don't matter to me. I'm not a precision paper puncher. Mostly shoot offhand at steel. Really, about the only time I shoot at paper is to zero an optic. With M855 and M193 they're both about 2-3moa shooters when I do use paper which is about what to expect from the ammo. Eh... whatever.

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Old 05-01-2017, 09:24 PM
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Does it make much difference in a normal factory M&P? Yes, they are accurate rifles in the right hands. Certainly not my hands. But these aren't meant to be precision rifles.
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Old 05-01-2017, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triathloncoach View Post
Does it make much difference in a normal factory M&P? Yes, they are accurate rifles in the right hands. Certainly not my hands. But these aren't meant to be precision rifles.
Most standard ARs that are sub MOA shooters are in the hands of the Internet.
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Old 05-01-2017, 11:33 PM
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My exposure to high power rifles has been mostly directed to target rifles. Back when I was whole, I started with an M1903A3NM, graduated to an M1MkII, then an AR. I managed to earn my NRA XTC Master classification with the AR. My AR service rifle is a post ban Colt Match Target A2 with a 1:7 twist. I would shoot magazine length 77gr SMK out to the 300 yard line. At the 600 yard line, I preferred 80gr SMK loaded singly. I was told to expect a target accuracy life of about 5000 rounds.

After my accident, I built a 1:8 twist Frankengun AR with the intention of shooting 1000 yard F class. That is still a work in progress.

Over the course of about 25 years and numerous discussions in the pits at Perry, the concensus has been that for service rifle competition, either a 1:7 or 1:8 barrel is a necessity in order to be competitive at the 600 yard line. For me, a 1:9 barrel just can't be competitive beyond the 300 yard line.

This summer, I am looking at adding a twist to my shooting. Having been a right handed shooter all my life, I am looking to shooting my AR match rifle and service rifle left handed, because I need to get back on the game I have grown up with.
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Old 05-02-2017, 12:21 AM
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For me, an AR is an AR is an AR. I've owned a number of them from Colt, Ruger, etc. (The Sterling AR-180 doesn't count, but in my mind it was a much superior rifle.) The only AR-15 platform I have now is a cheapo ATI Omni Hybrid with a 1:7 twist rate. I don't expect it to be an MOA bullseye rifle, and it isn't. Just as I don't expect it to last forever, unlike my expectations for my hand-built Marlin-Ballard .22 lr Schuetzen rifle.

Though I've nailed my share of deer with an AR, I have long since relegated them to varmint control, both four- and two-legged varieties. The Omni came in quite useful about 4 hrs. ago when I spotted a big ol' raccoon staggering (obviously diseased with who-knows-what) down my fence line. I don't even recall offhand what loads are in it right now, but I flipped on the reflex optic, set on the finest green dot, popped it off safe and planted one in it's neck at 75 yards.

The raccoon didn't care what the twist rate of the barrel was, nor the bullet weight or it's composition. And I guess I don't much care, either. It did what it was supposed to do with decent accuracy, and that's all I can ask of it.

Now, that Marlin-Ballard, and my bolt guns... well, they're an entirely different story.
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Old 05-02-2017, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrrifleman View Post
After my accident, I built a 1:8 twist Frankengun AR with the intention of shooting 1000 yard F class. That is still a work in progress.
I went 'round and 'round with that notion.
I really got sucked in and put on a 6.5 twist for 90 grain bullets.
Theoretically, it should shoot like a 175 gr .308 but in practice it does not.
And the pit crew hates looking for the small holes.
At midrange, it is a different story, it is a FINE 600 yard rifle.

I now think your 8 twist and a fast 75-82 gr is the better approach at making a Long Range .223. So does Eric Stecker.
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Old 05-02-2017, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Rastoff wrote:
Lots of talk about longevity. How long should a barrel last?
It depends.
  • The grade of steel the barrel is made out of will affect longevity.
  • Chrome plating or surface nitriding versus nothing at all can impact longevity.
  • What the jacket of the bullet is made out of can affect longevity.
  • How fast you fire (and the resulting heat of the barrel) can affect longevity.

This is a link to a "torture test" in which rifles were intentionally abused to see what impact some of these factors would have on the life of the barrel.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/bras...el-cased-ammo/

Note that although the article is captioned as a comparison of brass versus steel "case" ammunition, the effect of gilding metal jacketed bullets versus bi-metal bullets are also addressed.

In this abusive situation the barrels firing the bi-metal bullets were shot out by around 6,000 rounds while the barrel shooting the gilding metal bullets was still servicable after 10,000 rounds. I would think that gently used barrels would last at least that long.
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Old 05-02-2017, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Over the course of about 25 years and numerous discussions in the pits at Perry, the concensus has been that for service rifle competition, either a 1:7 or 1:8 barrel is a necessity in order to be competitive at the 600 yard line. For me, a 1:9 barrel just can't be competitive beyond the 300 yard line.
This is the closest thing I've seen to proof regarding this issue. Did you see for yourself that a 1:9 wasn't competitive at 600 yards? Sometimes consensus is wrong but usually not especially at Perry.

FWIW I have a 1:9 .223 varmint rifle. It will shoot a 5" group at 500 yards consistently with my best group at that distance being 1". But it's not an AR obviously. It has a 26" barrel. I shoot 75 gr bullets (Sierra boat tail in Black Hills Remanufactured Ammo cartridges). They are pretty consistent for off the shelf ammo. So it is possible for a 1:9 twist to shoot well but again it isn't a service rifle.
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Old 05-02-2017, 05:20 PM
Brian in Oregon Brian in Oregon is offline
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I want maximum accuracy from 55 grainers, so 1:9" is the fastest twist I'll accept. I rarely shoot anything heavier.

It really boils down to what bullet weight you will primarily shoot, or whether you want to cover all bases with maximum twist rate with a degradation in accuracy for lighter weights at longer ranges.

If all you are doing is shooting tin cans and zombie targets at 50 yards, it doesn't matter one iota.
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Old 05-03-2017, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil View Post
Most standard ARs that are sub MOA shooters are in the hands of the Internet.
It's a whole lot easier to shoot sub-MOA groups on a keyboard-assuming we're talking about multiple shot groups-than it is on a range.
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Old 05-08-2017, 01:31 PM
hugger-4641 hugger-4641 is online now
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1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate  
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Tennessee
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IMHO, unless you are competition shooter or you are trying to drive tacks at 400yds, you are not going to notice any difference between a 1/9 and a 1/7 twist. Here's a pic I took this weekend. I was shooting 55gr Tullammo thru my 1-7 twist barrel at 220 yards using a cheap Tasco Red Dot. That is a 9" diameter paper plate I used for a target, held by tacks at top and bottom, but for some reason the pic posted sideways. I couldn't do any better using the 1-9 twist barrel with the same ammo, and couldn't do any better with the 75gr BTHP Hornady Black that I shot also. When I get a good scope, I might be able to improve, but for now, at the distances I'm shooting, I can't see any difference between the 1-7 and 1-9.
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  #30  
Old 05-14-2017, 08:00 PM
Moe Mentum Moe Mentum is offline
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1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate 1:7 vs 1:8 vs 1:9 rifling twist rate  
Join Date: Apr 2014
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I only shoot 55 grain bullets, so 1:9 for me.
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