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Old 06-20-2017, 12:15 PM
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Question S&W Using Chinese Parts In Their AR's?

While at the gun range this weekend I was with a few of my S&W MP15 buddies. I was shooting my MP.40 with my new .357 SIG barrel while they were shooting their AR's.
Someone brought up the conversation about some of the MP15 parts are made in China. Is this true? I have a Sport MP15 and it looks all 'MERICAN made. Can anyone elaborate on this, or is this just a rumor? I mean, if S&W is trying to save money this is a sure fire way of doing it.
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Old 06-20-2017, 12:59 PM
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I would imagine it's nearly impossible to assemble an AR without ANY Chinese parts. Joe
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Old 06-20-2017, 01:15 PM
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I would imagine it's nearly impossible to assemble an AR without ANY Chinese parts. Joe
Well I guess we'd lose that war.......................
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Old 06-20-2017, 02:00 PM
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Yes and no.
First there is no way to tell by looking to determine if it's "all AMERICAN made"

Second. Chinese can and do make good products. What you see as junk you can thank the company that payed for it. Chinese will make whatever you want to your price point. You won't get $1000 quality if all you're willing to pay is $50.

Third. S&W does outsource some parts from other companies. Where they got it or how they made it only S&W knows. It's probably not made in China but there's no way to prove or disprove

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Old 06-20-2017, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pharmer View Post
I would imagine it's nearly impossible to assemble an AR without ANY Chinese parts. Joe
Not at all. As long as your goal isn't to buy the cheapest product possible. Buying known quality from know companies will get you ZERO Chinese parts

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Old 06-20-2017, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Arik View Post

Third. S&W does outsource some parts from other companies. Where they got it or how they made it only S&W knows. It's probably not made in China but there's no way to prove or disprove

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Could you imagine the backlash if it was proven true? I doubt that S&W would risk it.
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Old 06-20-2017, 02:06 PM
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I would imagine it's nearly impossible to assemble an AR without ANY Chinese parts. Joe
Are we talking stocks, and hand guards? Anything else?
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Old 06-20-2017, 02:10 PM
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Could you imagine the backlash if it was proven true? I doubt that S&W would risk it.
I doubt it too. But they still do outsource and we have no way to know one way or the other

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Old 06-20-2017, 02:24 PM
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Stock M4-style furniture and "little bits" in the LPK are probably Chinese, sure.

Remember, the cell phone or computer you're viewing this post on are undoubtedly made there as well. It's all about the quality standard and oversight of the brand.

If you're going to make cheap dollar-store quality ****, your only real option is China. But on the flip side, they can make quality goods if you (the brand) demand it.
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Old 06-20-2017, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve912 View Post
Are we talking stocks, and hand guards? Anything else?
Pins, screws, springs, washers, muzzle brakes etc. Joe
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Old 06-20-2017, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by PanzerSS View Post
.........some of the MP15 parts are made in China. Is this true? I have a Sport MP15 and it looks all 'MERICAN made.
Its a conundrum to be sure.

How do you define "Made"?

...because we seem to have re-defined "built".

"I built an AR this weekend" Really?...or didja jam a few springs and pins together?

I have some older AK's. They have Serial #'s in three separate places with armorer's marks on other smaller parts. Made it! Built it! Proud of it! Put their "mark" on it!

You see that in a Sport II???

Now, all that being said, when it came time to buy mamma an AR the discussion went...
"What kind you want?
"I dunno, we seem to be happy with the M&P line"
"Yep, cant go wrong with S&W"

So we got a S&W (in a high spot no less, paid 568)

Absolutely love it. Never misses a beat, even in FA type mode with a SlideFire.

I wanted a pistol....slapped some Anderson/PSA parts together...love it.

I think we are buying the name for the most part. I didnt research where they dig up their parts or where they assemble stuff. Its an American company with a helluva reputation producing nice, affordable firearms.

....I dunno what more I could want

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  #12  
Old 06-20-2017, 11:09 PM
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The label wrapped around my Sport 1`s hand guard says "made in USA".
Thats good enough for me.
Jim
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Old 06-20-2017, 11:36 PM
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Thanks to 922 rule it is counter productive to use foreign sourced parts on an AR. Plastic molded stuff made here is competive and injection molding doesn't require much labor. The cube it takes coupled with light weight means it isn't efficient to ship filling containers with it either.
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Old 06-20-2017, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
hkcavalier wrote:
If you're going to make cheap dollar-store quality ****, your only real option is China.
I have to disagree.

That may have been true in 1990, but the value of China's currency in international exchange has risen in value and the wages paid to Chinese industrial labor now in some cases exceed what workers make in the United States.

Today, if you want cheap, you go to places like Vietnam, Laos, Indonesia or Malaysia. And more than a few companies are discovering the wage picture has so shifted over the last twenty years that the cheapest place to make something is now the U.S.
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Old 06-21-2017, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
Panzer SS wrote:
...is this just a rumor?
Why don't you contact S&W directly and get the straight story right from the company?
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Old 06-21-2017, 12:28 AM
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I was in Wal-Mart earlier this evening. I was looking for an eagle to put on top of my flag pole because the eagle that was on it, the coating was peeling. I went to where they sell the American flags and found one. While there I started looking at the flags. I saw that several of them had "MADE IN CHINA" on the wrapper holding the American flag.
I own an F150. The owners manual is in a very nice zipper pouch. On the zipper handle it reads "CHINA."
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Old 06-21-2017, 12:32 AM
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Why don't you contact S&W directly and get the straight story right from the company?
Yeah, ok. They will say ANYTHING but "Yes, sure, we use Chinese parts on our MP15 rifles."
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Old 06-21-2017, 04:32 AM
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"Quality" is only one factor in the equation.
The Chinese economy does not work anything like it does in the West. If you're a manufacturer or large business operator, it is a given that you are either a member of the Chinese National Communist Party, or one of their flunkies. That being said, you will enjoy a competitive advantage over other nations. And what happens to all that capital, not to mention stolen intellectual property, flowing into China? A lot of it benefits other Chinese national agendas, such as aerospace and digital tech.
Every penny you spend on a "made in China" product, directly or indirectly benefits this oppressive regime. So, is saving a couple bucks worth it to support totalitarianism?
Would your grandfather have bought "Made in Nazi Germany" to avoid those "outrageous" pre-war prices on a 44 Second Model Hand Ejector? And, if he did, would we have any right to complain about how "they don't make 'em like they used to."?

I was in Cabela's earlier today looking for a top quality one piece cleaning rod. They had a Tipton carbon fibre rod, a Hoppe's stainless steel rod, and a Dewey coated rod. The first two had cheesy plastic handles and lousy bearings. The Dewey just felt more professional. Not surprisingly, the Dewey was the only one made in the USA. So, arguments aside as to what rod material is best, the choice was easy for me. Sure, it was a good chunk of change. But, not one commie made a nickel off of it!

Jim
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Old 06-21-2017, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by PanzerSS View Post
Yeah, ok. They will say ANYTHING but "Yes, sure, we use Chinese parts on our MP15 rifles."
So you presume S&W will shut you down or openly lie if asked, but expect that somehow the answer's floating around the forum?
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Old 06-21-2017, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by jimbo728 View Post
The label wrapped around my Sport 1`s hand guard says "made in USA".
Thats good enough for me.
Jim
If a certain percentage of assemblage occurs stateside, "Made in the USA" is a permitted designation -- doesn't mean the components or materials are U.S. based or sourced.
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Old 06-21-2017, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dusty3030 View Post
Thanks to 922 rule it is counter productive to use foreign sourced parts on an AR. Plastic molded stuff made here is competive and injection molding doesn't require much labor. The cube it takes coupled with light weight means it isn't efficient to ship filling containers with it either.
922 wouldn't matter. It doesn't take into account all parts. Just some. Most of your small parts don't count. They could be made on Mars

What counts are
(1)Receiver
(2) Barrels
(3) Barrel extensions
(4) Mounting blocks (trunions)
(5) Muzzle attachments
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers
(8) Operating rods
(9) Gas pistons
(10) Trigger housings
(11) Triggers
(12) Hammers
(13) Sears
(14) Disconnectors
(15) Butt stocks
(16) Pistol grips
(17) Forearms, hand guards
(18) Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floor plates

Not all of these are applicable to every firearm and some of them are going to be either one or the other. You won't have a operating rod and a piston. It will be one or the other.

None of the other parts count and you only need 10 or less imported parts. If I were to count an AR the same as an AK (I know the parts for AK) having a US mag (which all AR have) already gives me 3 of the 10 parts. Fire control group gives me another 3, so now I'm up to 6/10. Pistol grip, handguard and butt stock gives another 3 for 9/10. Add a US made muzzle brake/flash hider and there's your 10 parts. Everything else can be made wherever!

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  #22  
Old 06-21-2017, 07:40 AM
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I think that when I buy a brand name I am buying the engineering expertise of the company to produce a product that meets certain safety and quality standards and is willing to put a warranty on it.
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Old 06-21-2017, 08:49 AM
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I'd have asked the guy specifically what parts were made in China and how he knew this. The blank stare back would have been answer enough.
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Old 06-21-2017, 08:55 AM
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922 puts the AR 15 in the non sporting category. So any parts are also non sporting.

China is on the "proscribed" countries list. You can't import non sporting rifles or parts thereof specifically from China.
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Old 06-21-2017, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dusty3030 View Post
922 puts the AR 15 in the non sporting category. So any parts are also non sporting.

China is on the "proscribed" countries list. You can't import non sporting rifles or parts thereof specifically from China.
Sure you can. Parts are just parts. 4 years ago Wotech Industrial Co was bringing in 80% receivers made in China because until it's finished it's just a chunk of aluminum. Then there's the whole "airsoft" thing. UTG is a Chinese company and they're rails have been imported for years and years. Recently they moved their operations to the US. Not to mention all the knockoff MagPull products

Then there's this

Ar 15 -China Ar 15 Manufacturers & Suppliers|Made in China Mobile

Then this letter from G.A.R firearms

"As some of you may already know (if not, this may come as a shock to you), many suppliers have been importing AR parts from China and similar countries, which means, not all parts are made in the USA as many of you may have thought. As the AR platform rifle becomes more popular every day, more and more companies are on a race to the bottom in an attempt to offer parts, as well as rifles, as cheaply as possible.


We can't stress this enough, cheaper is not always better!


As this appears to be a growing trend in the industry, we can assure our customers that all of our rifles are made with quality 'American made parts' machined from 'American made materials'. The rifles that we offer, as well as the replacement parts that we carry, we know are not the cheapest, but remember, American made quality is the quality you deserve!


Unfortunately, this attitude is not shared by all in the industry. More and more cheap foreign made parts are finding their way into the US market, and are resulting in catastrophic failures in many AR type rifle platforms. We, of course, refuse to be apart of this growing trend of using foreign inferior quality parts, and that is why we will continue to offer quality American made products.


With the way the economy is headed, we are fully aware that 'cheap' is what most people want. This is why we stayed small and did not balloon ourselves into a big company. Because of this, our overhead is much lower and we do not need to sell truck loads of product on a daily basis just to keep afloat. This company since its humble beginnings has always been about quality and not quantity.


As others are changing in order to keep up with the Jone's in the industry, you can always be assured that we will never be one of those companies. We have chosen to follow that well beaten path that made America a great nation.


We will be changing our inventory over time to reflect only products that we would use ourselves and not products that people want on the cheap. As these cheaper products are phased out, they will in time be replaced with products that reflect our attitude.


We would like to take this opportunity to thank those of you who have the same attitude as we do and have continued their support, for without you, this company would not be possible.




Thank you,
Management
G.A.R. Arms

G.A.R. Arms, P.O. Box 1193 Fairacres, NM 88033 Fax (575) 541-9056

Some more Chinese parts

Made in China - LAMNUR AR-15 Parts Review - YouTube



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Old 06-21-2017, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
dusty3030 wrote:
Plastic molded stuff made here is competive and injection molding doesn't require much labor. The cube it takes coupled with light weight means it isn't efficient to ship filling containers with it either.
Then why are all those cheap, residential injection molded electrical boxes at Lowes and Home Depot made in China while the more expensive commercial boxes are made in the US?

I think the answer may be a little more involved.
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Old 06-21-2017, 12:23 PM
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S&W has done themselves a great disservice trying to market their "Sport" line as a true warfighters tool. They sell a ton of Sports to first time AR15 buyers who don't know what a real AR15 is. That said, the Sport is a great entry level plinkers gun with light duty home defense ability. I'm sure there are Chinese parts on the Sport line to keep the cost competitive.

Their "non Sport" M&P15 line is more to "milspec" stadards.

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Old 06-21-2017, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Arik wrote:
...'American made materials'...
The letter from G.A.R. is interesting, but it doesn't really answer the OP's question about whether or not there are Chinese (or other imported, for that matter) parts in his rifle.

G.A.R.'s claim to using parts made from "American made materials" is interesting because the only way to know that is for G.A.R. to trace the origin of its suppliers' raw materials. So, unless the steel mill is separating the Lexus fenders from the Chevrolet ones it is re-smelting, G.A.R.'s claim seems unrealistic.

Unless, of course, what G.A.R. means by "American made material" is "Foreign material recycled here in the USA" and that seems to call for a pretty large asterisk (*). After all, when someone wraps themselves in the American flag, I don't really care to see a "Made in China" label on that flag.
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Old 06-21-2017, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
stwings wrote:
S&W has done themselves a great disservice trying to market their "Sport" line as a true warfighters tool.
Where do they do this?

When I go to the Smith & Wesson home page, I see an M&P-15 firing at a target at what appears to be a civilian rifle range.

And when I look at the page specific to the Sport II (M&P(R)15 Sport™ II | Smith & Wesson), the purposes listed are: "Home Protection, Hunting, Recreational Shooting", exactly the things you say the rifle really is.

Seems like the only person laboring under a misapprehension about what the M&P-15 Sport II really is, is you.
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Old 06-21-2017, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Arik wrote:
Most of your small parts don't count. They could be made on Mars
No they couldn't.

Mars has had Earth under sanctions since that incident with the Spirit rover a few years ago. ;-)
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Old 06-21-2017, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by hdwhit View Post
The letter from G.A.R. is interesting, but it doesn't really answer the OP's question about whether or not there are Chinese (or other imported, for that matter) parts in his rifle.

G.A.R.'s claim to using parts made from "American made materials" is interesting because the only way to know that is for G.A.R. to trace the origin of its suppliers' raw materials. So, unless the steel mill is separating the Lexus fenders from the Chevrolet ones it is re-smelting, G.A.R.'s claim seems unrealistic.

Unless, of course, what G.A.R. means by "American made material" is "Foreign material recycled here in the USA" and that seems to call for a pretty large asterisk (*). After all, when someone wraps themselves in the American flag, I don't really care to see a "Made in China" label on that flag.
It doesn't answer. Your right. That letter was a reply to dusty. Aside from being the CEO or accountant of S&W I don't think any of will know for sure

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Old 06-21-2017, 01:43 PM
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I'm sure there are Chinese parts on the Sport line to keep the cost competitive.
Are you just as sure about that as you were that the Sport used a cast lower, instead of a forged one? Because you were wrong on that theory too.
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Old 06-21-2017, 01:54 PM
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Talk about made in China.....take a good look under the sheet metal on that $40,000.00 - $65,000.00 F350, or Silverado, or Toyota you are driving and you will find lots of made in China....
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Old 06-21-2017, 03:07 PM
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I would like to see some real proof that parts are made in China instead of saying it's possible, or I heard from a friend. Show proof and not rumors!
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Old 06-21-2017, 03:26 PM
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While just about everything I've seen made in China has been junk, about 30 yrs ago I bought a Type 56 SKS made in China. I gotta say. While crude that thing is dead reliable. After many thousands of rounds of cheap Soviet steel case 762x39 through it it has NEVER jammed. NEVER. It's like the proverbial Eveready battery. Just keeps going and going, clean or dirty.
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Old 06-21-2017, 05:17 PM
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So you presume S&W will shut you down or openly lie if asked, but expect that somehow the answer's floating around the forum?
You catch on quick there Sport.
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Old 06-21-2017, 05:23 PM
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I'd have asked the guy specifically what parts were made in China and how he knew this. The blank stare back would have been answer enough.
Meh, it didn't spark my interest at the moment. Besides, a friend of mine on vacation wanted me to post this after we talked about it after our range outing.
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Old 06-21-2017, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by dben002 View Post
Talk about made in China.....take a good look under the sheet metal on that $40,000.00 - $65,000.00 F350, or Silverado, or Toyota you are driving and you will find lots of made in China....
I know a GM engineer that spends enough time in China that they are taking up Mandarin as a second language.
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Old 06-21-2017, 07:54 PM
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I bought a Type 56 SKS made in China. I gotta say. While crude that thing is dead reliable.
I was going to post almost exactly what you posted. My Type 56 (purchased in 1992) has been insanely reliable. The ONLY times it has had a problem was when I was monkeying around changing parts (like the firing pin) to what was supposedly better parts. As soon as I switched back the original the problems stopped. And I have had a batch or two of ammo that has caused issues. In the not too distant past ammo was popping primers pretty bad. That got in the firing pin channel and jammed that pin. I fixed it with another firing pin and a spring (one that worked this time).

Altogether I have had maybe 2 dozen FTE issues because of the stuff I mentioned. 2 dozen out of countless thousands of rounds of ammo. And mine hasn't been abused like some I've seen. I've seen them so gunked up you couldn't pull the bolt back. Apparently they got that way by shooting them until they filled up with gunk. It must have taken 200,000 rounds without EVER cleaning the rifle to get to that point. It had to be working to the point it was or it wouldn't have got that way.

So the Chinese are capable of making some very, very good equipment. They don't often do it but they sure did it with the SKS and later their AK's. Sure they aren't as accurate or slick operating as the AR's but for a long time people argued the AK was way more robust than the AR and would work in conditions no AR would even think of working in. I don't know about that but I sure know about my SKS. It is still insanely reliable. I'm aware not all Chinese SKS models are as good. The later made for the US market models aren't as good. But the ones made for the military work every time. They were designed for somewhat less than tech savy peasants to use under all conditions. Sure the SKS doesn't use detachables (actually mine does and has since the first day with zero issues ever with the mags) but the stripper clip system works very well too. It was good enough for the M1. Yes I like having 30 on tap but that big mag gets in the way sometimes. I have smaller mags including a 15 round model just for that reason. But they aren't as out of the way as the original mags.

I counted on that SKS for decades to be my protection against the gang of hoodlums just up the hill from my house. They sold drugs, broke into houses and they hated me for shooting too much. But they had enough sense to stay away because I'd put on a demonstration with that SKS from time to time. I wouldn't want to charge a house with a known shooter pointing one of those rifles at me.

Chinese quality isn't all bad.
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Old 06-21-2017, 11:34 PM
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Man, the amount of Norinco SKS's I have owned over the years, can't be counted on all of my digits. Those are some of the most reliable firearms ever made. My favorite is the paratrooper.
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Old 06-21-2017, 11:45 PM
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I thought there was a federal law about marking country of origin if not made in the US. I have not seen any markings on my AR that would indicate made in China.
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Old 06-22-2017, 07:19 AM
Hapworth Hapworth is offline
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You catch on quick there Sport.
Don't call me "Sport", I'm 100% made in the USA.
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Old 06-22-2017, 07:32 AM
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Don't call me "Sport", I'm 100% made in the USA.
When I read your reply this AM, I almost spit my coffee onto my monitor!
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Old 06-22-2017, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by stwings View Post
S&W has done themselves a great disservice trying to market their "Sport" line as a true warfighters tool. They sell a ton of Sports to first time AR15 buyers who don't know what a real AR15 is. That said, the Sport is a great entry level plinkers gun with light duty home defense ability. I'm sure there are Chinese parts on the Sport line to keep the cost competitive.

Their "non Sport" M&P15 line is more to "milspec" stadards.

I would LOVE to hear an example of a light duty home defense situation, VS Heavy duty???
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Old 06-22-2017, 11:28 AM
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I would LOVE to hear an example of a light duty home defense situation, VS Heavy duty???
Light duty is when my wife finds some of the receipts for this hobby; heavy duty is if she finds all of them...
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Old 06-22-2017, 11:55 AM
Dad_Roman Dad_Roman is online now
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Thats two in a row!!!

.......Bazingaa!!!
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Old 06-22-2017, 01:00 PM
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Light duty is when my wife finds some of the receipts for this hobby; heavy duty is if she finds all of them...
TRUTH!! LOL!!!!..
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Old 06-22-2017, 07:44 PM
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TRUTH!! LOL!!!!..
Man, y'all need to grow some!
Seriously, I never had that problem because I was married to Satan's spawn for only 5 years. I do have a lot of gun shooting buddies that work out "AGREEMENTS" with their wives. I think that's only fair.
BTW, I had another weakness; HOT RODS! Now that's an expensive hobby!
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Old 06-23-2017, 12:07 AM
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HOT RODS! Now that's an expensive hobby!
Racing is even more expensive. But I have enough trouble financing my shooting Jones. There have been years I've spent $5000 on ammo plus the guns I bought. I might have to take up golf to save some money (which isn't cheap at all either). How about ping pong? I can afford a steady supply of new ping pong balls (I think anyway).
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Old 06-23-2017, 02:27 PM
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How about ping pong? I can afford a steady supply of new ping pong balls (I think anyway).
Affordable???



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