Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > >


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-21-2017, 12:30 AM
PeglegJones's Avatar
PeglegJones PeglegJones is offline
Member
Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness?  
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 75
Likes: 6
Liked 15 Times in 15 Posts
Default Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness?

What are the advantages&disadvantages of each.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-21-2017, 12:51 AM
cyphertext cyphertext is offline
US Veteran
Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness?  
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Wylie, TX
Posts: 4,039
Likes: 887
Liked 3,058 Times in 1,680 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeglegJones View Post
What are the advantages&disadvantages of each.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
Going to be personal preference really... but the advantage of lower 1/3 is the sight picture while using the dot is cleaner. Comes into play more when using the micro dot type sights that have a smaller diameter tube. Advantage to absolute co-witness is that you use the same cheek weld with the red dot as you do the sights. No need to look over the top of the sights like you do with lower 1/3. This really comes more into play when you have fixed sights, or you keep the flip ups raised all the time.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #3  
Old 06-21-2017, 02:40 AM
Flash_80 Flash_80 is offline
Member
Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness?  
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 285
Likes: 158
Liked 117 Times in 75 Posts
Default

What he said. I like the absolute because when I do use open sights, I have a more full picture. But I'm shooting in my backyard at targets or steel and in by no means any tactical situation that has any more thought about it than what I just mentioned.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #4  
Old 06-21-2017, 10:42 AM
Kadonny's Avatar
Kadonny Kadonny is offline
Member
Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness?  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,327
Likes: 710
Liked 585 Times in 361 Posts
Default

I like lower 1/3. If you are co-witnessed, most of the time you are using your dot so the lower 1/3 gives you the most uncluttered and open field of view when using that dot. It just makes the most sense to give you the best sight picture with the optic you use the majority of the time.

Regarding cheek weld, the beauty of the red dot is you don't need a consistent cheek weld. Quick acquisition and put the red dot on target and pull the trigger.
__________________
Too many Smiths to list now.

Last edited by Kadonny; 06-21-2017 at 10:44 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #5  
Old 06-21-2017, 11:12 AM
ChattanoogaPhil's Avatar
ChattanoogaPhil ChattanoogaPhil is offline
Moderator
Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness?  
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 14,266
Likes: 7,381
Liked 19,085 Times in 5,619 Posts
Default

A lot of guys with an A2 front sight prefer the lower 1/3 which keeps the dot above the post when looking through the center of the tube and a less obstructed view through the tube, particularly with the small micro tubes.

I rarely have my folding sights flipped up, but I prefer the lower 1/3 because it gives me a little more room to work with cheekweld that I generally find cramped wearing hearing protection.

Last edited by ChattanoogaPhil; 06-22-2017 at 05:57 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-21-2017, 11:27 AM
cyphertext cyphertext is offline
US Veteran
Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness?  
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Wylie, TX
Posts: 4,039
Likes: 887
Liked 3,058 Times in 1,680 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadonny View Post

Regarding cheek weld, the beauty of the red dot is you don't need a consistent cheek weld. Quick acquisition and put the red dot on target and pull the trigger.
This is true, to a point. When using the red dot as designed, consistent cheek weld is not as important... however, for those who are trying to use the top edge of the dot for precision shooting, consistent cheek weld will help that. And with the less expensive red dots, I have found that the closer to the center of the scope you keep the dot, the more "accurate" it is.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-21-2017, 11:45 AM
MichiganScott MichiganScott is offline
Member
Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness?  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: God's Country
Posts: 4,330
Likes: 970
Liked 2,974 Times in 1,544 Posts
Default

I prefer absolute and I also like A2 front sights. The combination gives me a sight picture I find reminiscent of the concentric circles of a set of front and rear target sights.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #8  
Old 06-21-2017, 05:24 PM
PanzerSS PanzerSS is offline
Banned
Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness?  
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 52
Likes: 16
Liked 33 Times in 18 Posts
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiganScott View Post
I prefer absolute and I also like A2 front sights. The combination gives me a sight picture I find reminiscent of the concentric circles of a set of front and rear target sights.
I have to agree with you there Sir.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-21-2017, 08:10 PM
just plain joe just plain joe is offline
Member
Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness?  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: SW PA
Posts: 128
Likes: 2
Liked 92 Times in 53 Posts
Default

This may depend somewhat on your intended use. In LE I always preferred to have the back-up irons in the lower portion of my Aimpoint T-1 when I utilized them. In this manner when covering/targeting a bad guy, with the red dot placed center mass, or in the cranium area for a high-percentage shot, the sights normally did not obscure my view of his hands/area of his waist.

If you have absolute co-witness, the front sight, rear sight, and red dot afford you less of an open view of the perp.

As an aside, I run a fold down front sight on my work carbine and prefer to view only the red dot. The front sight/rear sight/red dot field of view always seemed too "busy" for me.

This works for me. YMMV.

JPJ

P.S. With the Aimpoint family of red dot sights, parallax is a non-issue. Put the dot on the target, press the trigger to the rear, repeat as necessary.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #10  
Old 06-22-2017, 12:07 AM
Rastoff's Avatar
Rastoff Rastoff is offline
Member
Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness?  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: So Cal (Near Edwards AFB)
Posts: 11,678
Likes: 1,725
Liked 10,852 Times in 4,457 Posts
Default

Absolute co-witness. Two reasons I think it's better:
1. Lower height over bore. This gives you a flatter trajectory.
2. No difference in sight height. This makes it more natural should you need the irons.

Now, I don't have a fixed front sight on any of my rifles. If I did, I might go with a lower 1/3, but I'd also probably switch out the front sight.
__________________
Freedom isn't free.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 06-22-2017, 05:30 AM
ChattanoogaPhil's Avatar
ChattanoogaPhil ChattanoogaPhil is offline
Moderator
Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness?  
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 14,266
Likes: 7,381
Liked 19,085 Times in 5,619 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
Absolute co-witness. Two reasons I think it's better:
1. Lower height over bore. This gives you a flatter trajectory.
No trajectory difference with a red dot sight.

My irons are set to 50 yd zero.
My red dot has a lower 1/3 riser and set to 50yd zero.

When I look through the rear aperture of my irons, the red dot is exactly on the front sight post just like it would be with an absolute co-witness riser. The only difference is the irons and red dot are in the lower third of the red dot tube. See the Absolute and Lower 1/3 illustrations as looking through the rear aperture (left at right illustrations ).

Using a lower 1/3 riser allows me to look over the irons through the center of the red dot tube and of course the red dot will appear above the irons (center illustration), but that's not changing sight over bore for trajectory concerns, and the dot remains on target.

Here's an illustration.


Last edited by ChattanoogaPhil; 06-23-2017 at 08:13 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 06-22-2017, 12:14 PM
Scotiapilot Scotiapilot is offline
Member
Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness?  
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 86
Likes: 58
Liked 60 Times in 32 Posts
Default

It seems like may people forget that you can keep the front cover closed and use both eyes open. Try it.
It is personal preference and I wouldn't take too seriously.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-22-2017, 12:22 PM
MichiganScott MichiganScott is offline
Member
Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness?  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: God's Country
Posts: 4,330
Likes: 970
Liked 2,974 Times in 1,544 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotiapilot View Post
It seems like may people forget that you can keep the front cover closed and use both eyes open. Try it.
It is personal preference and I wouldn't take too seriously.
I give up. How do you keep the front sight cover closed and hit anything? Seems like that would not only obstruct the dot, but also the irons.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 06-22-2017, 12:51 PM
Scotiapilot Scotiapilot is offline
Member
Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness?  
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 86
Likes: 58
Liked 60 Times in 32 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiganScott View Post
I give up. How do you keep the front sight cover closed and hit anything? Seems like that would not only obstruct the dot, but also the irons.
I encourage you to practice, watch videos.
Yes, red dots are and can be used eyes both open. Typically non magnified red dots are designed to do this. Your other open eye will super impose the red dot on the target. Aimpoints are designed this way. It is actually the idea of the red dot.
I use aimpoint the aimpoint pro for business and competition.

Cowitness is used for typically for LEO use so that you can always make sure your rifle has at least one set of functioning sights. You never have to worry if your duty weapon has been damaged after a period of time in the trunk or just getting beat around.

After you zero your red dot you will likely NEVER use your rear iron sight. But almost always when I open up my case for comp use I flip up the rear to make sure both are congruent then I put it down.

BUT Yes you can use the sight with front cover down both eyes open. It is absolutely designed for that. This is why Aimpoint have a clear rear cover. Its amazing to do.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #15  
Old 06-22-2017, 12:55 PM
Scotiapilot Scotiapilot is offline
Member
Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness?  
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 86
Likes: 58
Liked 60 Times in 32 Posts
Default

One more thing, when you zero a red dot you must always remember the that LOS has nothing to do with bullet trajectory and depending on where you zero, I use 25yds which means I am zeroed at 300 and that if I am shootin target between those yardages I have to "holdover" appropriately with the 2MOA dot co compensate for bullet rise. sometimes as much a 6inches over at 170 yards where he bullet is at it peak arch.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 06-22-2017, 01:14 PM
BAM-BAM BAM-BAM is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Western Pa.
Posts: 7,641
Likes: 157
Liked 8,434 Times in 4,041 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
Absolute co-witness. Two reasons I think it's better:
1. Lower height over bore. This gives you a flatter trajectory.
2. No difference in sight height. This makes it more natural should you need the irons.

Now, I don't have a fixed front sight on any of my rifles. If I did, I might go with a lower 1/3, but I'd also probably switch out the front sight.

Ditto..... I like my ''back up" iron sights folded out of the way if not needed.

FWIW.... when I get my rifle out I'll flip up my sights ....too check my dot......if it's not sitting on top of the front sight I might have a problem.

Last edited by BAM-BAM; 06-22-2017 at 01:25 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 06-22-2017, 10:05 PM
MichiganScott MichiganScott is offline
Member
Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness?  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: God's Country
Posts: 4,330
Likes: 970
Liked 2,974 Times in 1,544 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotiapilot View Post
I encourage you to practice, watch videos.
Yes, red dots are and can be used eyes both open. Typically non magnified red dots are designed to do this. Your other open eye will super impose the red dot on the target. Aimpoints are designed this way. It is actually the idea of the red dot.
I use aimpoint the aimpoint pro for business and competition.

Cowitness is used for typically for LEO use so that you can always make sure your rifle has at least one set of functioning sights. You never have to worry if your duty weapon has been damaged after a period of time in the trunk or just getting beat around.

After you zero your red dot you will likely NEVER use your rear iron sight. But almost always when I open up my case for comp use I flip up the rear to make sure both are congruent then I put it down.

BUT Yes you can use the sight with front cover down both eyes open. It is absolutely designed for that. This is why Aimpoint have a clear rear cover. Its amazing to do.
I use my dots with both eyes open when I'm trying to shoot fast. I just had no idea you could use them without being able to see through them. I'll try it next time I'm at the range.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #19  
Old 06-22-2017, 10:28 PM
Kadonny's Avatar
Kadonny Kadonny is offline
Member
Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness?  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,327
Likes: 710
Liked 585 Times in 361 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyphertext View Post
This is true, to a point. When using the red dot as designed, consistent cheek weld is not as important... however, for those who are trying to use the top edge of the dot for precision shooting, consistent cheek weld will help that. And with the less expensive red dots, I have found that the closer to the center of the scope you keep the dot, the more "accurate" it is.
If you want precision shooting, the red dot is not the tool. Just sayin.
__________________
Too many Smiths to list now.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 06-22-2017, 11:25 PM
Ricrock Ricrock is online now
Member
Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness?  
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: The Republic of Texas
Posts: 154
Likes: 57
Liked 61 Times in 42 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotiapilot View Post
I encourage you to practice, watch videos.
Yes, red dots are and can be used eyes both open. Typically non magnified red dots are designed to do this. Your other open eye will super impose the red dot on the target. Aimpoints are designed this way. It is actually the idea of the red dot.
I use aimpoint the aimpoint pro for business and competition.

Cowitness is used for typically for LEO use so that you can always make sure your rifle has at least one set of functioning sights. You never have to worry if your duty weapon has been damaged after a period of time in the trunk or just getting beat around.

After you zero your red dot you will likely NEVER use your rear iron sight. But almost always when I open up my case for comp use I flip up the rear to make sure both are congruent then I put it down.

BUT Yes you can use the sight with front cover down both eyes open. It is absolutely designed for that. This is why Aimpoint have a clear rear cover. Its amazing to do.
I call BS on this. I use my red dots like they are designed to be used, with the covers open! I do use them with both eyes open and they work as designed.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 06-22-2017, 11:44 PM
Scotiapilot Scotiapilot is offline
Member
Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness?  
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 86
Likes: 58
Liked 60 Times in 32 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricrock View Post
I call BS on this. I use my red dots like they are designed to be used, with the covers open! I do use them with both eyes open and they work as designed.
LOL yeah its BS. I was just trying to lead the guy down the wrong path so he could fail. So is Aimpoint...they know nothing about red dots.
Improve your shooting
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 06-22-2017, 11:48 PM
Scotiapilot Scotiapilot is offline
Member
Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness?  
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 86
Likes: 58
Liked 60 Times in 32 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricrock View Post
I call BS on this. I use my red dots like they are designed to be used, with the covers open! I do use them with both eyes open and they work as designed.
LOL yeah its BS. I was just trying to lead the guy down the wrong path so he could fail. So is Aimpoint...they know nothing about red dots.
Improve your shooting
Bullet point 8:
Aimpoint - PRO
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 06-23-2017, 12:41 AM
Rastoff's Avatar
Rastoff Rastoff is offline
Member
Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness?  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: So Cal (Near Edwards AFB)
Posts: 11,678
Likes: 1,725
Liked 10,852 Times in 4,457 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadonny View Post
If you want precision shooting, the red dot is not the tool. Just sayin.
Yeah, you can never shoot small groups with a red dot:

Just sayin...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricrock View Post
I call BS on this. I use my red dots like they are designed to be used, with the covers open! I do use them with both eyes open and they work as designed.
Indeed, the red dot was intended to be used uncovered and with both eyes. Closing the front cover is a circus trick, just like the guy in the video said. However, shooting with both eyes open and the front cover in place does demonstrate how two eye shooting works. It's fun and does help you improve your shooting. So, it's not BS.
__________________
Freedom isn't free.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 06-23-2017, 10:41 AM
Kadonny's Avatar
Kadonny Kadonny is offline
Member
Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness?  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,327
Likes: 710
Liked 585 Times in 361 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
Yeah, you can never shoot small groups with a red dot:

Just sayin...
Can you shoot small groups with one? Sure, depending on distance and your rest. I'll say it again but add one word. If you want a optic for precision shooting, the red dot is not the best tool.

So what distance was that group shot? Bench rest?
__________________
Too many Smiths to list now.

Last edited by Kadonny; 06-23-2017 at 10:43 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 06-23-2017, 11:56 AM
Scotiapilot Scotiapilot is offline
Member
Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness?  
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 86
Likes: 58
Liked 60 Times in 32 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadonny View Post
Can you shoot small groups with one? Sure, depending on distance and your rest. I'll say it again but add one word. If you want a optic for precision shooting, the red dot is not the best tool.

So what distance was that group shot? Bench rest?
Are we talking a battle/assault rifle or a Barbie doll trunk monkey rifle? CONTEXT makes everything here.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 06-23-2017, 11:56 AM
ChattanoogaPhil's Avatar
ChattanoogaPhil ChattanoogaPhil is offline
Moderator
Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness?  
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 14,266
Likes: 7,381
Liked 19,085 Times in 5,619 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadonny View Post

So what distance was that group shot?
Well... since the pic is labeled (.38 inches .78MOA) I'll take a guess it's pretty close to 50yds. But heck who knows... it's Rastoff...

And what the heck does occluded aiming have to do with the OP's question about the advantages and disadvantages of absolute vs lower 1/3 co-witness? Nothing.

Precision shooting... occluded aiming... I can only imagine how fast the OP's head is spinning for asking a simple question about risers for co-witness.

carry on....

Last edited by ChattanoogaPhil; 06-23-2017 at 11:59 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 06-23-2017, 12:40 PM
Rastoff's Avatar
Rastoff Rastoff is offline
Member
Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness?  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: So Cal (Near Edwards AFB)
Posts: 11,678
Likes: 1,725
Liked 10,852 Times in 4,457 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadonny View Post
Can you shoot small groups with one? Sure, depending on distance and your rest.
Of course no one would pick a red dot or iron sights if their main purpose was precision shooting. The point cyphertext was making is that you can make a more precise shot with a red dot depending on how it's used.

You can use the top edge of the dot to make a more precise shot.

The main purpose behind a red dot is to speed target acquisition. In that role, the cheek weld and position of shooter's eye in relation to the center of the ocular lens is not critical. However, for that rare time when a more precise shot is required, it can be done and cheek weld is important.

Which brings us back to the purpose of this thread. A shooter could use a 1/3rd co-witness because a loose contact with the cheek could provide very quick acquisition. Then when a more precise shot is required, knuckle down and make a harder cheek weld, which would potentially put the shooter's eye lower in relation to the optic.

I agree that no one would pick a red dot primarily for precision shooting. But that doesn't mean it can't be used for a precision shot.
__________________
Freedom isn't free.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #28  
Old 06-23-2017, 12:43 PM
Rastoff's Avatar
Rastoff Rastoff is offline
Member
Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness?  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: So Cal (Near Edwards AFB)
Posts: 11,678
Likes: 1,725
Liked 10,852 Times in 4,457 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil View Post
But heck who knows... it's Rastoff...
What's that supposed to mean?
__________________
Freedom isn't free.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #29  
Old 06-23-2017, 08:02 PM
digiroc's Avatar
digiroc digiroc is offline
Member
Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness?  
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 521
Likes: 257
Liked 945 Times in 317 Posts
Default Sig MCX w/ co-witness Romeo 4M ...


That's a LaserMax flat pistol mount laser just ahead of the front sight, so I have three aiming systems for redundancy and quick target acquisition. Under the hand guard is a Streamlite pulsing (or steady) light. Sliding switch on light allows instant on/off for a quick peak and target recognition.



Not a very good phone photo, but it does illustrate how well the Sig MCX / Sig Romeo 4 optic co-witnesses with the flip up iron sights. Slight miss-alignment is my holding my iPhone wrong (Apple insider Joke). You can see if I put the center dot on top of the iron sight post the circle fills the shroud.

Due to the phone's lens geometry (wide angle) the large aperture on the rear sight seems enlarged but with the naked eye the large aperture matches the front shroud exactly.

For the photo I had both front and rear sights flipped up. In actual practice I leave the rear down and the front up.

The 65mm LED target aligns perfectly with the iron sights which gives the same cheek weld and hold for either sight.

Even if the battery dies the optic tube acts like a big ghost ring for adequate combat accuracy.

digiroc

Last edited by digiroc; 06-23-2017 at 08:27 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 06-23-2017, 08:32 PM
Kadonny's Avatar
Kadonny Kadonny is offline
Member
Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness?  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,327
Likes: 710
Liked 585 Times in 361 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil View Post
Well... since the pic is labeled (.38 inches .78MOA) I'll take a guess it's pretty close to 50yds. But heck who knows... it's Rastoff...

And what the heck does occluded aiming have to do with the OP's question about the advantages and disadvantages of absolute vs lower 1/3 co-witness? Nothing.

Precision shooting... occluded aiming... I can only imagine how fast the OP's head is spinning for asking a simple question about risers for co-witness.

carry on....
Well in all fairness, we went from uncluttered FOV to not needing a good cheek weld with a red dot to precision shooting with the dot. Natural progression. Anyway, I think we are all on the same page. Give me a lower 1/3 with fold down sights and my FOV is nice and open with my dot on.
__________________
Too many Smiths to list now.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 06-23-2017, 08:38 PM
digiroc's Avatar
digiroc digiroc is offline
Member
Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness?  
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 521
Likes: 257
Liked 945 Times in 317 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadonny View Post
... Give me a lower 1/3 with fold down sights and my FOV is nice and open with my dot on.

With both eyes open I have a full field of view, even with the front cap on! (of course I can't see the front sight then) In defensive use the laser or the red target LED is all I see superimposed on the target. The iron front shroud with the LED target inside it is for more precise and consistent hold.

digiroc

Last edited by digiroc; 06-23-2017 at 08:42 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 06-23-2017, 08:49 PM
cyphertext cyphertext is offline
US Veteran
Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness?  
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Wylie, TX
Posts: 4,039
Likes: 887
Liked 3,058 Times in 1,680 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
Of course no one would pick a red dot or iron sights if their main purpose was precision shooting. The point cyphertext was making is that you can make a more precise shot with a red dot depending on how it's used.

You can use the top edge of the dot to make a more precise shot.

The main purpose behind a red dot is to speed target acquisition. In that role, the cheek weld and position of shooter's eye in relation to the center of the ocular lens is not critical. However, for that rare time when a more precise shot is required, it can be done and cheek weld is important.

Which brings us back to the purpose of this thread. A shooter could use a 1/3rd co-witness because a loose contact with the cheek could provide very quick acquisition. Then when a more precise shot is required, knuckle down and make a harder cheek weld, which would potentially put the shooter's eye lower in relation to the optic.

I agree that no one would pick a red dot primarily for precision shooting. But that doesn't mean it can't be used for a precision shot.
Yep, exactly the point... not saying that it is the right tool, or even one that I would pick, but... look at how many folks go with a red dot and a magnifier.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 06-23-2017, 09:31 PM
digiroc's Avatar
digiroc digiroc is offline
Member
Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness?  
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 521
Likes: 257
Liked 945 Times in 317 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyphertext View Post
... look at how many folks go with a red dot and a magnifier.
Somewhat off topic, but on my AR15 I have a Vortex Spitfire 3x with an illuminated (red or green) prism scope with an etched range finding reticle. It works just like a normal scope when not illuminated.

This is a different tool for a different circumstance (longer range shooting) It can also be used both eyes open where it appears very similar to a red dot.

On this weapon I have replaced the gas block elevated sight with a short Pickatinny rail equipped gas block with a laserMax pistol laser on it.

There are no iron sights, but the laser and illuminated reticle do co-witness after a fashion. The Spitfire comes with a riser that allows co-witnesing with standard AR15 elevated sights but I chose to mount the scope without the riser to get the sight closer to the bore axis.




digiroc

Last edited by digiroc; 06-23-2017 at 10:01 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 09-02-2017, 03:02 PM
pineoak pineoak is offline
Member
Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness?  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

RDS or other non magnified optics only:
-lower 1/3 if running fixed
-lower 1/3 if for serious work usage

for plinking or competition, it's preference
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 09-03-2017, 12:55 PM
snm8510's Avatar
snm8510 snm8510 is offline
Member
Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness? Absolute or Lower 1/3 Co-witness?  
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Virginia
Posts: 220
Likes: 78
Liked 64 Times in 49 Posts
Default

I like absolute. And that's running with an A2 front
__________________
Isaiah 43:1-3
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Absolute Co-Witness & 1/3 Co-Witiness idbstyler Smith & Wesson M&P 15-22 11 08-11-2017 04:54 PM
1/3 Co-Witness or Absolute? Nostinkin Smith & Wesson M&P 15-22 12 08-26-2016 03:22 PM
Why I chose absolute co witness Ballenxj Smith & Wesson M&P15 Rifles 17 01-26-2016 11:40 PM
Absolute co-witness vs. lower third co-witness. andyo5 Smith & Wesson M&P15 Rifles 14 06-02-2013 11:51 AM
absolute co-witness mount height? dezmick Smith & Wesson M&P15 Rifles 1 07-17-2012 09:39 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:39 PM.


S-W Forum, LLC 2000-2015
Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)