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Old 11-30-2017, 06:53 PM
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Over 800rd before failure!
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Old 11-30-2017, 09:20 PM
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According to Google 12-15 rounds per minute sustained rate of for an M-16 or about an hour for 820 rounds. Pretty sure I never saw that rate of fire in RVN. Pretty impressive performance for any weapon let alone a civilian version of a military weapon. I really get tired of the term "entry level" though,seems to me it will go bang and do what it was designed to do no matter the cost. Dead is dead. I enjoy IV8888 videos.
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Old 12-01-2017, 01:57 AM
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I really get tired of the term "entry level" though
Same. Budget or basic level is better fitting IMO.
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Old 12-01-2017, 09:04 AM
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Same. Budget or basic level is better fitting IMO.
I don't know... "budget level" makes it sound cheap to me. "Entry level" at least implies that it is worth buying if you are just getting into ARs.

I've tried to not get worked up over the labels and just enjoy my Sport for what it is, a reliable carbine that meets my needs.
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Old 12-01-2017, 09:32 AM
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I like 'inexpensive'. Despite the snobs' blathering, the price is the real difference between these and the 'premium' makes. But snobbery...
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Old 12-01-2017, 09:54 AM
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I like 'inexpensive'. Despite the snobs' blathering, the price is the real difference between these and the 'premium' makes. But snobbery...
No there's more to it than just price.

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Old 12-01-2017, 09:56 AM
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No there's more to it than just price.

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Old 12-01-2017, 09:56 AM
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Annd...WE'RE OFF!
No, no we're not. But to say that the only difference is price based on roll marks is just silly

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Old 12-01-2017, 09:58 AM
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Annd...WE'RE OFF!
Arik is right... there is more to it. You can decide if the difference between higher priced rifles and a Sport are worth paying for with the way you use the rifle, but there are differences.
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Old 12-01-2017, 09:58 AM
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I'd really like to see Rob Ski run a Sport II through his 5000rd endurance test.
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Old 12-01-2017, 10:03 AM
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Arik is right... there is more to it. You can decide if the difference between higher priced rifles and a Sport are worth paying for with the way you use the rifle, but there are differences.
I've checked various reviews and noted the comments on grades of materials, etc. BUT for practical purposes, you are not getting a 3-4x better rifle for 3-4 times the price. A lot of feel-good, though. If that brings satisfaction in the purchase, then the price is fully justified.
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Old 12-01-2017, 10:40 AM
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I've checked various reviews and noted the comments on grades of materials, etc. BUT for practical purposes, you are not getting a 3-4x better rifle for 3-4 times the price. A lot of feel-good, though. If that brings satisfaction in the purchase, then the price is fully justified.
So, what you just said is that you acknowledge that there are differences, but those differences are not worth the difference in price to you...

That is quite a different statement than "Despite the snobs' blathering, the price is the real difference between these and the 'premium' makes."
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Old 12-01-2017, 10:48 AM
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They are essentially just testing the upper, not the lower.
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Old 12-01-2017, 10:56 AM
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They are essentially just testing the upper, not the lower.
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Old 12-01-2017, 11:04 AM
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These types of torture tests can be entertaining but it seems to me that a Sport isn't a Sport using a lower and bolt carrier group from other manufactures which replaces all moving Sport parts. Prefer to see a Sport operate as a Sport. What was left to test was a Sport barrel, gas tube and flash hider. The flash hider came lose and gas system failed. What was learned?

However, it was nice to hear that the Palmetto BCG survived in working order. I recently bought one for the wife's AR build.
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Old 12-01-2017, 11:08 AM
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So, what you just said is that you acknowledge that there are differences, but those differences are not worth the difference in price to you...

That is quite a different statement than "Despite the snobs' blathering, the price is the real difference between these and the 'premium' makes."
Hehehe... I need popcorn. Snobbery is real, especially for splitting hairs.
Enjoy the rifle of your choice and be safe with it. May it never have to be sued fir anything but fun.
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Old 12-01-2017, 11:17 AM
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S&W makes good handguns, I have quite a few of them, but not all are without problems. As far as AR rifles I always buy Colt. They always cost quite a bit more than their competitors. Mil spec means a lot to me, and none has ever failed me. To each their own.
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Old 12-01-2017, 11:19 AM
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S&W makes good handguns, I have quite a few of them, but not all are without problems. As far as AR rifles I always buy Colt. They always cost quite a bit more than their competitors. Mil spec means a lot to me, and none has ever failed me. To each their own.
Too bad the Colt isn't Mil-spec... Ask Colt if their civilian rifles are mil-spec. Their answer is going to disappoint you.
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Old 12-01-2017, 11:27 AM
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These types of torture tests can be entertaining but it seems to me that a Sport isn't a Sport using a lower and bolt carrier group from other manufactures which replaces all moving Sport parts.
I thought the same... By changing out the BCG, you just swapped the heart of the rifle. But, if you watch his other vids, you see that the PSA upper melted down around 500 rounds. So you could conclude that the Sport barrel is better in his particular samples.
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Old 12-01-2017, 11:42 AM
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I thought the same... By changing out the BCG, you just swapped the heart of the rifle. But, if you watch his other vids, you see that the PSA upper melted down around 500 rounds. So you could conclude that the Sport barrel is better in his particular samples.
The barrel on my wife's AR wouldn't make it even 500rds in FA since it's a pencil barrel and specifically built to be light weight. Though it would not surprise me if it outlasted a Colt.
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Old 12-01-2017, 11:50 AM
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Hehehe... I need popcorn. Snobbery is real, especially for splitting hairs.
Enjoy the rifle of your choice and be safe with it. May it never have to be sued fir anything but fun.
"sued fir"... you really are from the South, huh...

I'm not trying to be snobby, or split hairs... there are differences.

4140 vs 4150 barrel steel... Doesn't make a hill of beans difference in a semi auto in my opinion, but the difference is there.

The different grades of aluminum used for the receiver extension... Forged hammer vs MIM... heat shields in the hand guard... Full auto vs semi BCG... different levels of QC testing...

All these little differences add up when it comes to price. There is some true difference in quality, and others are theorized differences.

The Sport is what it is... A reliable carbine that was built to a price point for a segment of the gun buying market. I chose to do without some of the available "features" to buy at a price I was happy with when I purchased my Sport. On other ARs, I've chosen to "upgrade"...
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Old 12-01-2017, 11:53 AM
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The barrel on my wife's AR wouldn't make it even 500rds in FA since it's a pencil barrel and specifically built to be light weight. Though it would not surprise me if it outlasted a Colt.
Better to be built for a purpose than built for a way that you will never use! (Said by the guy who just bought a 4 wheel drive pickup as a daily driver... )
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Old 12-01-2017, 02:40 PM
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Better to be built for a purpose than built for a way that you will never use! (Said by the guy who just bought a 4 wheel drive pickup as a daily driver.
My feelings about the Sport exactly. I don't expect to be changing it over to full auto and going into the desert or some swamp. If I was I'd take my SKS anyway.

Still this test was pretty darn impressive considering the results he got from some other AR's. I'd like to see the actual rifle tested too but I think it would be really hard to make it fail shooting semi-auto. Maybe if they used a bump fire trigger on it that might tell us something.

BTW I need a 4WD to get up my driveway come winter time. It's that or walk and I'm not crazy about that.

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Old 12-01-2017, 03:30 PM
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It was definitely entertaining and I appreciate the effort, however, changing out the BCG and lower (all the moving parts and things that actually break) invalidated the entire experiment. To my mind it's analogous to putting a Ferrari drivetrain in an F150 and running at 150 mph until the wheels fall off, something it wasn't engineered to do. It would definitely be fun to watch, but wouldn't be an accurate assessment of Ford's quality. This was merely good entertainment. Bravo!

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Old 12-01-2017, 03:42 PM
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I have watched most, if not all, of the IV8888 “meltdown” videos.

The thing that has impressed me about the various AR’s he has melted down is how tough they all are. Considering that no AR, not even a real military one, is actually intended to be a “squad automatic weapon,” it is really pretty impressive to see how much abuse they can take before they fail. They are not intended to be shot on full auto for more than a few bursts at a time.

So, based on what we’ve seen before from this series, the Sport II didn’t surprise, nor did it disappoint. The gas system failed, and that’s the part that is supposed to fail first.
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Old 12-01-2017, 03:49 PM
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I've checked various reviews and noted the comments on grades of materials, etc. BUT for practical purposes, you are not getting a 3-4x better rifle for 3-4 times the price. A lot of feel-good, though. If that brings satisfaction in the purchase, then the price is fully justified.
Whats "practical purposes"? For me practical pur is a gun that can be heavily used and where I know the exact specs. This gun was not heavily used, the barrel and gas tube weree

If you just want to shoot occasionally shoot from a bench then it may not matter.

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Old 12-01-2017, 04:24 PM
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Whats "practical purposes"?
If he hadn't got himself banned, the guy who kept telling us that his $17.95 FireField red dot was just as good as an Aimpoint for $600 less could surely answer that question for us.

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Old 12-01-2017, 04:41 PM
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I've checked various reviews and noted the comments on grades of materials, etc. BUT for practical purposes, you are not getting a 3-4x better rifle for 3-4 times the price. A lot of feel-good, though. If that brings satisfaction in the purchase, then the price is fully justified.
Exactly! This is true with most things. The point of diminishing return is very subjective. This is frequently discussed on the 1911 forums - are Wilsons and Browns worth 3-4 times as much as a Springfield or Kimber? All will get the job done.
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Old 12-01-2017, 05:32 PM
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Over 800rd before failure!
M&P15 SPORT II MELTDOWN! - YouTube

IMO that was rather pointless.
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Old 12-01-2017, 07:15 PM
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"sued fir"... you really are from the South, huh...
HA! Busted!!
I'm not trying to be snobby, or split hairs... there are differences.


4140 vs 4150 barrel steel... Doesn't make a hill of beans difference in a semi auto in my opinion, but the difference is there.

The different grades of aluminum used for the receiver extension... Forged hammer vs MIM... heat shields in the hand guard... Full auto vs semi BCG... different levels of QC testing...

All these little differences add up when it comes to price. There is some true difference in quality, and others are theorized differences.
Well stated, sir. Thank you.

The Sport is what it is... A reliable carbine that was built to a price point for a segment of the gun buying market. I chose to do without some of the available "features" to buy at a price I was happy with when I purchased my Sport. On other ARs, I've chosen to "upgrade"...
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Old 12-01-2017, 08:42 PM
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IMO that was rather pointless.
Yes, but also entertaining.

If you watch more of his meltdown videos, a couple of other things are interesting. They did a Glock 17 with an auto-sear, and it fired a LOT of 9mm on full auto before it failed.

Also, despite the fact that AK guys tout their rifles as being so much more durable and reliable than AR’s, the AK rifles in the videos have not done nearly as well as the AR’s.
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Old 12-01-2017, 08:46 PM
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Yes, but also entertaining.

If you watch more of his meltdown videos, a couple of other things are interesting. They did a Glock 17 with an auto-sear, and it fired a LOT of 9mm on full auto before it failed.

Also, despite the fact that AK guys tout their rifles as being so much more durable and reliable than AR’s, the AK rifles in the videos have not done nearly as well as the AR’s.
When you have a moment, go over to YouTube and watch InRange's mud tests of the AK and AR. The tests caused quite a bit of angst, as the AR passed with aplomb and the AK choked completely after just a few rounds.
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Old 12-01-2017, 09:14 PM
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IMO that was rather pointless.
It was far from a perfect test but it did show a few things like how long before the gas tube fails. Other rifles have had their barrels fail among other things. Some failed much earlier. The only one I saw do a lot better was a true full auto rifle and it had problems that made it work almost like a bolt action for much of the time it ran. The Sport 2 held it's own in what was actually tested. I would like to see a test of all the actual parts of a Sport though. I'd think a bump fire trigger could tell a person a lot about the quality of different rifles.
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Old 12-01-2017, 10:10 PM
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The video was entertaining and so is this thread! I wish I had the opportunity to do a long term test but I don't and I have just enough "hold my beer and watch this" left in in me to enjoy IV 8888 entertainment which doesn't claim it is science. AR parts are cheap enough and easy enough to change that if it breaks I replace it with what I hope is a quality part. Life is short,enjoy.
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Old 12-02-2017, 10:01 AM
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I wonder what would have happened if they had tested the Sport II Magpul, which just has a Magpul forend?
Geoff
Who could spec a mount and a machine driven trigger to really test the rifle, but I suspect any AR would last indefinitely and a drum of Federal ammo is $13,000 or so.
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Old 12-02-2017, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Skeptic 9c View Post
I wonder what would have happened if they had tested the Sport II Magpul, which just has a Magpul forend?
Geoff
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Old 12-02-2017, 10:27 AM
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I run a slidefire on mine. Only ran a second mag one time, so 60 max but normally 30 then a break. Of course I realize the difference between 30 and 800 but Im also running all the "Sport II" components 100% original with the only change being a reddot addition and the stock itself.

Never a hiccup.....thats gotta be worth somethin

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Old 12-02-2017, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vonn View Post
According to Google 12-15 rounds per minute sustained rate of for an M-16...
I'm not even going to attempt a search because this cannot be correct. 15 rounds a minute is one shot every 4 seconds. I'm pretty sure an M16, even just using burst, can fire a LOT faster than that. Shoot, I can beat that in semi-auto.

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These types of torture tests can be entertaining but it seems to me that a Sport isn't a Sport using a lower and bolt carrier group from other manufactures which replaces all moving Sport parts.
Phil beat me to it. This "test" isn't a test of an M&P at all. He might as well just tested the barrel.

If you're going to do a torture test of a gun, use that gun and all the parts it came with from the factory. I'll bet lunch that a stock M&P15 Sport II will go well over 1,000 rounds before a malfunction (baring any mag specific issues or factory defects).

I put 749 rounds through a 1911 I have the first day I got it in less than an hour. No malfunctions of any kind. I would have gone more, but I ran out of ammo (one damaged case from the factory, not caused by the gun).
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Old 12-02-2017, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
I'm not even going to attempt a search because this cannot be correct. 15 rounds a minute is one shot every 4 seconds. I'm pretty sure an M16, even just using burst, can fire a LOT faster than that. Shoot, I can beat that in semi-auto.
No, that is correct. Key word being "sustained". Maximum rate of fire is much higher, but the sustained rate is 12 - 15 rounds per minute.
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Old 12-02-2017, 07:34 PM
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15 rounds a minute is one shot every 4 seconds. I'm pretty sure an M16, even just using burst, can fire a LOT faster than that. Shoot, I can beat that in semi-auto.
The cyclic rate in FA is I think around 800 per minute. But as the videos here illustrate the firearm would be toast at that rate before the minute was up. What Vonn is talking about is sustained rate of fire.
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Old 12-03-2017, 02:04 AM
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Hmmmm, different terminology. I didn't think of it that way.
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Old 12-03-2017, 03:00 AM
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Hmmmm, different terminology. I didn't think of it that way.
Sustained rate of fire is the rate that the weapon can be operated at without overheating.
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Old 12-03-2017, 09:41 AM
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When I first got an AR included was a USMC TM. Reading through it really helped to understand operation and maintenance.

For those new to the rifle and even those who are more experienced, you're bound to learn something from publications like these.

Operation and maintenance
https://info.publicintelligence.net/...anceManual.pdf

Shooting
http://usacac.army.mil/sites/default...m/fm3_22x9.pdf

Last edited by ChattanoogaPhil; 12-03-2017 at 09:43 AM.
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Old 12-03-2017, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
I put 749 rounds through a 1911 I have the first day I got it in less than an hour. No malfunctions of any kind.
I ran enough rounds through a Sig P220 to make it cook off a round once. It didn't hurt it one bit. It still shoots very accurate and never malfunctions unless I put some really bad ammo in it. Specifically I tried Win Clean ammo and it was the dirtiest stuff I've ever seen. It would gum up the action on the Sig in just a few rounds. I haven't bought any more of that in a very long time.
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