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Old 07-07-2017, 10:45 PM
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Default Accuracy: 55gr FMJ VS 62gr Green Tip Penetrator

Have any of you done any group size testing, at 100 yards, with your M&P Sport? I can get 1-2moa with 55 grain IMI or Wolf Gold, but I've never tried the green tip ammo. I'd be curious to know how tight it shoots and also how much different the POA is between the two.
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Old 07-07-2017, 11:20 PM
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The M855/SS109 rounds are battle rounds. Never intended for anything other than marginal accuracy. The bullet was designed to punch through a Soviet Block steel helmet at 400 yards. HOWEVER, its accuracy was sort of minute of head at that range.
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Old 07-08-2017, 12:08 AM
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Ton of info on the net but IIRC the 55 grain bullet was intended for the older 1 in 12 twist rate on the M16A1 and AR15 SP1 and
the 1 in 7, 8 or 9 twist rates are supposed to work better on the 62 grain round.

Be aware M855 "green tip" ammo has a tungsten steel core penetrator inside for armor piercing, not recommended for indoor ranges or on steel plate targets.

There was an interesting article in the American Rifleman a few months back that compare the M855 to the new M855A1 round,
IIRC they pulled and bisected a bunch of the older M855 bullets which they found lacked consistency in the seating of the core etc.

My guess is you should get better accuracy from lead core FMJ 62 grain commercial ammo than green tip or 55 grain .
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Old 07-08-2017, 12:37 AM
hdwhit hdwhit is offline
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Quote:
agksimon wrote:
Have any of you done any group size testing, at 100 yards, with your M&P Sport?
Yes.

But not with the ammunition types you have used.

First of all, the accuracy/precision/repeatability standard I have used consistently throughout my life has been whether or not I could put at least 9 out of 10 rounds into the circular divot on the side of a gallon milk jug at 100 yards.

Second, I have used Federal 55 grain FMJ rounds in new Sport IIs and they have been able to achieve that standard.

Third, "standardized" rounds I created for use in my Mini-14 using Hornady 60 grain bullets on top of various powder loads (all selected to give a consistent point of aim/point of impact) also achieved the standard in the Sport II.

I don't think there's likely to be too much difference between a 60 grain and 62 grain bullet's trajectory at 100 yards, so I would say that my experience suggests that switching from 55 to 62 grain bullets - with appropriately proportioned powder charges - would have little variation between point of aim/point of impact.
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Old 07-08-2017, 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted by agksimon View Post
Have any of you done any group size testing, at 100 yards, with your M&P Sport? I can get 1-2moa with 55 grain IMI or Wolf Gold, but I've never tried the green tip ammo. I'd be curious to know how tight it shoots and also how much different the POA is between the two.
Like someone else said that ammo is more for battle than extreme accuracy. Military calls for 4 moa or better. If your whole intention is accuracy I suggest you but ammo specific to that

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Old 07-08-2017, 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Racer X View Post
The M855/SS109 rounds are battle rounds. Never intended for anything other than marginal accuracy. The bullet was designed to punch through a Soviet Block steel helmet at 400 yards. HOWEVER, its accuracy was sort of minute of head at that range.
This. It's intended more for battle. Military calls for 4 moa or better. If your interested in extreme acur I suggest you get ammo specific to that

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Old 07-08-2017, 06:53 AM
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My original posting simply asked if anyone has tested the two different rounds, head to head and what they came up with, as far as group sizes and POA. None of the above posts have answered that yet. I am aware of what the 62gr penetrator was intended for.

I have a Vortex Spitfire 3X prism scope on my optics ready on my Sport 2. Using IMI 55gr FMJ, I am able to maintain 1.5" to 2" groups at 100 yards. I want to know what the 62gr penetrator will do for group sizes and how much shift the POA will produce, because if they're quite close, I can shoot both, without having to re-sight my scope.

I guess I'm going to have to buy some and try it.
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Old 07-08-2017, 07:49 AM
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POI will be close enough that only minor adjustment of your optic would be needed to correct. You may notice a slight recoil and shell ejection pattern difference between .223 55gr and M855. Group size... M855 will likely not be quite as accurate as .223. Let us know how it works for ya.

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Old 07-08-2017, 08:49 AM
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A few comments:

M855 specifications:

NATO specifications for SS109 (U.S. M855) Ball call for a 61.7 grain bullet (+/-.75 gr) with a hardened steel penetrator at a velocity of 3,025 fps (+/- 20 fps) from a 20 inch barrel 25 meters from the muzzle. Typical velocity 15 feet from the M16A2's muzzle is around 3,100 fps.

The accuracy requirement from a test barrel specifies a mean radius for two 30 shot groups that equates to a maximum of approximately four MOA from 100 to 600 yards. However, typical accuracy of average lots in an M16A2 (20", 1-7 twist barrel) is just over 2 MOA. This is about twice as good as the requirement. It's also nearly identical to the M193's 2" mean radius requirement at 200 yards - giving effectively the same 2 MOA accuracy. If there's a difference, it's that M855 ammo doesn't have to meet a 2 MOA requirement - it can shoot as badly as 4 MO and still be accepted - but the potential is there for 2 MOA accuracy in the better lots.

The original goal for the M855 projectile was penetration of a steel helmet at a range of 500 meters, which was a modest increase over M193 which as originally designed was supposed to penetrate a steel pot at 500 yards (but didn't quite work out that way).

M855 actually did quite a bit better and the penetration requirement in the acceptance criteria for M855 is penetration of a 10 gauge SAE 1010 or 1020 steel test plate at a range of at least 570 meters (623 yards). On average, the M855 and M80 ball rounds will accomplish this out to a bit more than 700 yards. In comparison, the 55 gr M193 round using the shorter Type A 55 grain bullet will penetrate a 109 gauge steel plate reliably at 400 yards, and will penetrate about half the time at 500 yards.

Trajectory differences

In a 20" barrel, M193 has a velocity that is about 100 fps faster, but it has a lower BC. In practice the trajectories of M193 and M855 vary by less than an inch out of 400 meters and at 100 meters the difference is only .1".

The rub is that the trajectory is separate from what is needed to zero the rifle on the same point of aim with each round. As noted the M855 round is 100 fps slower, but has a slightly higher recoil impulse, with the potential for the muzzle to rise very slightly more before the bullet exits, which changes the angle of departure. That's not all bad as the higher angle of departure helps compensate for the slower muzzle velocity.

In practice, you should see both rounds impacting on the same 4" bullseye at 100 yards, but beyond that it will depend on the specifics of the rifle or carbine you are using.

In short, you'll have to try it and see if the results are close enough for your purposes.

Rifling twist and accuracy

Contrary to popular belief, the optimum twist for the 62 gr SS109/M855 projectile is 1-9". The faster 1-7" twist was adopted due to a rather stupid requirement that the M16A2 also stabilize the much longer M856 tracer round adequately to achieve the same penetration standard at 500 meters. That was done basically to ensure complete ammo compatibility with the M249.

What that means is that the 62 gr M855 round is actually slightly over stabilized in a 1-7" twist barrel, and that 1-9" is a better choice. The 1-9" twist will also accommodate 55 grain bullets well - particularly, longer boat tailed FMJs or boat tailed ballistic tip bullets, allowing for very good accuracy with well made bullets, despite the faster than optimum twist.

Not all 55 gr FMJs are created equal

The original bullet designed by Eugene Stoner in conjunction with Sierra for the XM193 round, had a longer 7 caliber ogive and a 9 degree boat tail that gave it a better ballistic coefficient than the later Remington designed bullet used in XM193 production. (In later testing this was later called the "Type B" bullet by the US Army.)

Remington redesigned the bullet as they encountered problems with inadequate stability in the 1-14" barrel originally specified for the M16 and they elected to use a shorter bullet - but didn't bother to notify the US Army of that change. (This bullet was later referred to as the "Type A" bullet by the US Army.)

That change in projectiles in XM193 ammunition was unfortunate, as during arctic testing with the M16, the XM193 round was found to be unstable in extremely cold temperatures and the US Army increased the rate of twist to 1-12" anyway.

The original longer Type B bullet had a significantly better BC than Remington's Type A bullet, which meant the Type B bullet in the original Stoner cartridge could penetrate a steel pot (10 gauge steel plate for test purposes) at the required 500 yard range. However, Remington's Type A bullet with it's shorter length, and lower BC could not meet the same requirement - penetrating the steel plate only about half the time at 500 yards.

In later testing the Army determined that at 300 yards for example, when fired in the same M193 cartridge, the Type A bullet lost 156 fps compared to the originally specified Type B bullet.

The need to launch the Type A bullet at significantly higher velocities to get the desired plate penetration is what led to the whole fiasco of increasing chamber pressures and searching for a different powder. All of which could have been avoided if Remington had just stuck with the original bullet when it was asked to produce ammunition and just told the US Army it needed to use a 1-12" rifling twist - which the US Army adopted anyway.

This is the long way of pointing out that not all 55 gr FMJs are created equal. Personally, I like the Hornady 55 gr FMJ as they are well made as FMJs go and have a very good (by 55 gr FMJ standards) BC of .247. I've found that bulk Hornady 55 gr FMJs are more consistent and more accurate than the bulk Winchester and Remington M193 projectiles, and like the Type B projectile, retain velocity better.

I normally get 1.25" MOA accuracy in my 20" (1-12" twist) Colt SP1 and M-16A1 clone (using a police take off M16A1 upper half) with Hornady bullets, and around 2 MOA accuracy with the Remington and Winchester projectiles.

In my varmint AR (20", 1-9 twist, bull barrel) I get 1 MOA accuracy with the Hornady bullets, but I'm lucky to get 3 MOA with the Winchester and Remington rounds. In this case, the faster twist exacerbates the inconsistency of these bullets, where the center of form and center of gravity are not always on the same axis.

In my various 1-9 twist 16" carbines, the differences are less pronounced, with all the rounds producing more or less the same 2.5-3 MOA accuracy. This is due in part to less accuracy in the barrels hindering the better made bullets, and less velocity (and thus lower spin rates) reducing the disadvantage of the less well made bullets.
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Old 07-08-2017, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Engine49guy View Post
Be aware M855 "green tip" ammo has a tungsten steel core penetrator inside for armor piercing, not recommended for indoor ranges or on steel plate targets.
The penetrator is made from soft steel; it's not even hardened. Tungsten is a strategic metal that is both expensive and difficult to work. It is roughly twice the weight of steel. It's weight alone would preclude it's use in a .223 bullet. The military would not waste it in a "spray and pray" platform. Lastly, if the penetrator was made from tungsten steel it would meet the legal definition of armor piercing and not be allowed for sale.
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Old 07-09-2017, 09:31 AM
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Buy it and try it is the only thing that has ever worked for me. I do the research and then try as many of them as I can. Once I get the results I try to get as much of what shoots best as I can afford so that I am stocked up for awhile. Sometimes ammo will vary quite a bit between different lot numbers of the same load I have found.
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Old 07-09-2017, 01:39 PM
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As I mentioned in my first post, I was using IMI 55grain FMJ and with the 3X scope, was able to average 2 inch or less groups at 100 yards.
I called one of my friends and he happened to have some IMI 62 grain penetrators and I swapped him a couple of boxes of mine for it.
Went out to the range and was very surprised that the POA was the same, but the groups did open up to around 3 inches.
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Old 07-09-2017, 08:36 PM
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All this hype about a round that is only going to punch holes in paper. Or, are you going to use it for something sinister?
I don't think I will have to use my AR's to pick off a burglar, or any criminal at 100 yards or more, so that's why I just punch holes in paper. If my life is threatened, I will most likely use an M&P .40, 5906, shotgun, etc. And, it will probably be if they break into my house.
Are these rounds you are referring to, do they give you more satisfaction that they cost a lot more than other ammo, say, WOLF, WINCHESTER, UMC? I mean, I'm lost as to why someone pays BOOKOO money for .223/5.56 ammo to punch holes in paper, when there is cheaper priced ammo. Can someone explain it to me like I were a 6 year old? (From the movie Philidelphia)
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Old 07-09-2017, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Disabled1 View Post
All this hype about a round that is only going to punch holes in paper. Or, are you going to use it for something sinister?
I don't think I will have to use my AR's to pick off a burglar, or any criminal at 100 yards or more, so that's why I just punch holes in paper. If my life is threatened, I will most likely use an M&P .40, 5906, shotgun, etc. And, it will probably be if they break into my house.
Are these rounds you are referring to, do they give you more satisfaction that they cost a lot more than other ammo, say, WOLF, WINCHESTER, UMC? I mean, I'm lost as to why someone pays BOOKOO money for .223/5.56 ammo to punch holes in paper, when there is cheaper priced ammo. Can someone explain it to me like I were a 6 year old? (From the movie Philidelphia)
I Paid $6.49 a box for IMI 55 grain FMJ. I just bought a case ( to split with shooting buddies) of IMI 62 grain Penetrator green tip, for $6.80 a box, not much difference. Where I work, I have access to as much scrap steel, of varying thicknesses as I want. We take it to the range and shoot at it at anywhere from 50 to over 100 yards. We experiment to see what the penetration is, based on thickness and distance and it's fun. We even bet on it.
Not everyone uses it for nefarious purposes. I hope this answers your question.
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Old 07-09-2017, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disabled1 View Post
I mean, I'm lost as to why someone pays BOOKOO money for .223/5.56 ammo to punch holes in paper, when there is cheaper priced ammo. Can someone explain it to me like I were a 6 year old? (From the movie Philidelphia)
The green tips aren't that expensive. Very little cost difference, if any, compared to M193. Maybe a little more than Wolf Gold, but maybe not. And I think the word you are looking for is "beaucoup"...
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Old 07-09-2017, 09:07 PM
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The green tips aren't that expensive. Very little cost difference, if any, compared to M193. Maybe a little more than Wolf Gold, but maybe not. And I think the word you are looking for is "beaucoup"...
No, here in Louisiana we spell it BOOKOO. Have you ever heard of "CAJUN DIALECT?" Watch the ONSTAR VIDEO. That's how I speak (my accent).

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Old 07-10-2017, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agksimon View Post
As I mentioned in my first post, I was using IMI 55grain FMJ and with the 3X scope, was able to average 2 inch or less groups at 100 yards.
I called one of my friends and he happened to have some IMI 62 grain penetrators and I swapped him a couple of boxes of mine for it.
Went out to the range and was very surprised that the POA was the same, but the groups did open up to around 3 inches.
Glad to here the POA was the same. Testing is the only way to tell for sure of POI and accuracy. I have an older Sport with the 5R 1:8 twist barrel. Testing 4 different 55gr loads that are at different velocities yielded same POI at 100 yards. In my newer Sport II with a 1:9 twist, the POI is quite different in three of the four that I have tested.
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Old 07-15-2017, 11:23 AM
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Since y'all are talking about the price of Federal ammo... For you guys looking to stock up on Federal .223 and 5.56... 5 cent per round rebate from now until the end of August. Find it on sale and apply the rebate... tough to beat.

For example XM855 at SGAmmo is $139 420rd ammo can. With rebate that puts it at $118. If ya like Federal .223. 55gr SGAmmo has 1000rd loose pack for $299. $50 rebate puts it at $250.

https://www.federalpremium.com/downl...romo_web_f.pdf

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Old 07-15-2017, 01:58 PM
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To add something to the above history lesson on 5.56mm ammo, back in the day, WW M193 55 gr ball had a distinctly different ogive than everyone else's. ( While re-organizing my loading area, I found a partial box of bulk bullets from that time, will have to see if I can find them.)

This design continued into the 1980s when WW got with the program and changed the ogive-or at least sold off all the previously produced bulk bullets.

Given the longer OAL, I doubt that they'd have delivered better results in extreme cold than a shorter bullet with the same rifling twist.

Remington did win the original cartridge design contest for the .22 infantry cartridge.
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