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Old 09-14-2017, 05:07 PM
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What would you consider a proper back stop, for target shooting your AR?

Lets suppose you want to shoot in your own back yard.. The local police, the DNR etc all said that it is 100% LEGAL in your area (the township you live in), BUT, you must use a proper back stop.. However, NONE of them could tell you what is considered a proper back stop..

there is NOTHING on the books when it comes to a description of a "Proper" back stop..

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Old 09-14-2017, 05:36 PM
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I would consider any combination of materials such as railroad ties, compacted earth, shredded tires, etc. that reliably prevents bullets from leaving the area to be a proper backstop.

The NRA has good information on range design which may include backstop specifications. If you built a backstop using those specifications, I think you would be covered.
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Old 09-14-2017, 05:53 PM
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The NRA now calls for a 20' high earthen berm as a backstop, but one alternative is a bunker filled with sand or rock free dirt that is 8' wide x 6' deep and 6' high for a target not more than 50 yards downrange. I don't know what would be called for at longer distances.
It's best to contact the NRA for their current suggestions. They have a complete range design notebook that is 2.5 or 3" thick that will give all the latest details.
First question, what is past the point where the backstop would be located? Huge consideration.
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Old 09-14-2017, 06:59 PM
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If you're going to be shooting steel, remember that even if the target is angled downwards, at whatever angle, if the round hits the angled top of the steel sheet, it will angle upwards at an unknown angle. Look at it this way, if you were the closest neighbor downrange, what would you want?
And, I feel your pain, the govt. types can be idiots. My company is required to dispose of old x-ray heads in "the appropriate manner". THAT is not addressed. How in heck do you comply with that???
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Old 09-14-2017, 07:12 PM
Lee's Landing Billy Lee's Landing Billy is offline
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Those guidelines are written ambiguously purposefully.
If they want you they will use the same guidelines to arrest you.
We had the county provide us with signs about the location of my range. Councilman for this area says we are A-OK. As does the Chairman. HOWEVER....there are 200 houses being built within 1 mile of my home. 299 voting households will cause the reps to fold like a cheap lawn chair.
Be very careful when you start shooting...if they want you, they'll have you.
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Old 09-14-2017, 07:27 PM
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This is true! I've had to endure the same thing with expensive homes being built in the approach/departure path of the local airport. They had to disclose to prospective buyers that there was an airport RIGHT NEXT DOOR, as if they couldn't SEE it. They still tried to complain about "airplane noise". Didn't work, though, they were presented with their signed documents from the closing. AND, the tapes of their phoned complaints showed that they were significantly "impaired" when they called to complain.
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Old 09-14-2017, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
...watch the pretty ricochets...
Good advice for anyone wanting to shoot anywhere near a populated area. Bullets don't do what most people assume they will do. They fly every which direction.

The best backstop is a hill with a lot of empty space behind it. Or shooting into a hole dug out in a hill is better. Bullets don't escape that. I used to shoot my 30.06 into a hole like that.

I'd suggest everyone get a few tracer rounds to see what goes on with bullets. They can travel a long way and still do damage to living things or houses or whatever.
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Old 09-14-2017, 09:32 PM
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It is common for the tree huggers to shut down a range because of "lead pollution". The EPA has a document called "Best Management Practices for Lead at Outdoor Shooting Ranges" that anyone wishing to set up a range may wish to consult.
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Old 09-14-2017, 09:34 PM
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In 1981 we took a training visit to Scotland to do some neat things. One of which was firing our GAU-5s (early M-4 style M-16s) on a KD range at night. For some reason which I have forgotten we did have a bunch of tracer rounds. The ricochet flight paths were very impressive. Luckily the only thing downrange past the berms were miles and miles of Scottish moors.
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Old 09-14-2017, 09:39 PM
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My neighbor has a 2 story 4 bedroom house.

Great backstop.
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Old 09-15-2017, 01:20 AM
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A big pile of dirt makes an excellent back stop.
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Old 09-15-2017, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post

A big pile of dirt makes an excellent back stop.
Big pile-O-dirt
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Old 09-15-2017, 09:36 AM
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In 1981 we took a training visit to Scotland to do some neat things. One of which was firing our GAU-5s (early M-4 style M-16s) on a KD range at night. For some reason which I have forgotten we did have a bunch of tracer rounds. The ricochet flight paths were very impressive. Luckily the only thing downrange past the berms were miles and miles of Scottish moors.
Gee thanks, endanger my kinfolks and then brag about it

Besides the backstop, there's the distance between you and and the potential secondary impact zone. I spent several years looking for an appropriate land contour for a range before buying. I don't have Rastoff's background, but since I'm shooting down hill with an impressive forest behind, there's a microscopic chance of a stray. Still, bullets will do things that surprise you.

Build higher, wider and deeper than you expect you'll ever need. Then go higher, wider & deeper yet if you have no help from your land contours. The big pile o dirt above doesn't cut it. It only takes one slip of the digit to find yourself in really expensive trouble and backstops erode. Install prominent warning signs in the danger area behind your backstop in case some idiot is wandering about. Also along the sides of the bullet path.

This doesn't mean you won't get complaints. A PITA near my gun club made a formal complaint about "bullets" hitting his house. He wasn't down range of the impact areas and was stupid enough to show up with a loaded cartridge to show the "bullet" that hit his house.

Noise complaints can be an issue. It's becoming one in my county, fortunately the Sheriffs Department has a charming attitude toward those who are disturbed by gunfire. "Welcome to the country folks!"

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Old 09-15-2017, 09:54 AM
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This doesn't mean you won't get complaints. A PITA near my gun club made a formal complaint about "bullets" hitting his house. He wasn't down range of the impact areas and was stupid enough to show up with a loaded cartridge to show the "bullet" that hit his house.
Similar situation here.... Houses are a little over a mile from the shooting line, separated by the berm and by the landfill. Range is in a floodplain and lower than the landfill. People in the housing subdivision started complaining about bullets hitting their houses. The news channel went out to "investigate" and showed an empty brass case laying next to the curb as "evidence". The AK on the line must have had one heck of a strong ejector to throw the case that far!
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Old 09-15-2017, 12:47 PM
Lee's Landing Billy Lee's Landing Billy is offline
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Some of you have seen my "berms". Row after row after row of 600 pound tires stacked 6 high. A 50 BMG will not defeat them. Behind them in 3 directions it is 900 yards to the next road.
The new houses I mentioned are behind the shooting stations, so no possibility of anything going that way. We had a County sign put up approaching the new development. These slab houses are starting at 230K. I am certain there is trouble in the future. I would love to be wrong.
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Old 09-15-2017, 02:45 PM
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A 50 BMG will not defeat them. Behind them in 3 directions it is 900 yards to the next road.
The new houses I mentioned are behind the shooting stations, so no possibility of anything going that way.
Sure about that?

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Old 09-15-2017, 04:13 PM
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Sure about that?
That guy was using a .50BMG to shoot a piece of pig iron at 100 yards. That's not smart no matter what the back stop is made of.
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Old 09-15-2017, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
RV4driver wrote:
They had to disclose to prospective buyers that there was an airport RIGHT NEXT DOOR, as if they couldn't SEE it. They still tried to complain about "airplane noise". Didn't work, though, they were presented with their signed documents from the closing.
That's why they made the disclosure a requirement and had the buyer sign an acknowledgement. Maybe the government types weren't quite the idiots you take them to be.
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Old 09-15-2017, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Pro2nd wrote:
NONE of them could tell you what is considered a proper back stop..
When a statute is drafted that way, it gives you considerable leeway in how you comply with it. Provided you have some guidelines from an authority (the NRA, an engineering firm that does shooting ranges, etc.) and you comply with those guidelines you are "proper" and if the agency wants to later say that what you have done is not, then the burden of establishing it will be on them. This is why there is generally a permitting process required so the agency can be satisfied with what you do before you do it.
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Old 09-15-2017, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Inusuit wrote:
I would consider any combination of materials such as railroad ties, compacted earth, shredded tires, etc. that reliably prevents bullets from leaving the area to be a proper backstop.
Yes, but defining "proper" that way places the burden of demonstrating that it "reliably" (whatever that means) prevents bullets from leaving the area squarely on you.

And good luck getting a definition of "reliably" that everyone can agree on as well formulating as a testing protocol to show that it is met.

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Old 09-16-2017, 10:09 AM
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When you do your research on the "proper" backstop, make copies of the source material. Mail the originals to yourself, return receipt requested, and put it somewhere really safe & secure. This is your proof that you did the research PRIOR to building and didn't go looking for some cover after the fact.

The extra copies are for reference use, if a LEO shows up and has any questions, you can use them then. Shows you (tried) to do the right thing.

What's likely to bite you is the suggested safety zone beyond the backstop. There's a proposed major training facility in my county battling this problem.
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Old 09-16-2017, 01:42 PM
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What is the layout of the property ? Meaning both topography, and the relative locations of buildings on surrounding properties ?
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Old 09-18-2017, 01:20 PM
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Thanks for all the replies, suggestions etc Everyone!

this is ROUGHLY the lay out of the area..

I've sorta given up on attempting to set something up in my own yard, but who knows, maybe? either way, I'd be happy with just a short 25 yard range (so to speak).. I mean it'd be nice to be able to just walk out into back yard and take a shot or two now and then, but.. humm


where it shows "empty house I own" that is the dead end of my street..the street ends at the woods, about 20ft past that house. Also the 260ft width of my property, only refers to my property, the woods and all the rest is a fair amount wider in both directions..
there are NO houses above, or below my pic here. I live on a dead end road.
And as far as all of it, I'd consider it Flat.. no significant hills etc..
Lastly as far as buildings etc, where it says "back 40", that would be where it is, and a solid 150ft plus above all the below..

RED line indicates direction of fire, but maybe not exact spot. just an example..


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Old 09-18-2017, 03:37 PM
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You'll have to build something that takes into account there could be people in the woods or in the back of the business or the field. Unless you can see no one is there you can't assume there isn't anyone. And really the distance beyond your drawing will come into play also.
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Old 09-18-2017, 04:10 PM
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Off hand, that does not look like a safe place for a shooting range, 1 shot can be as dangerous as thousands. A safe backstop will be difficult there but certainly not impossible. Again, I refer you to the NRA range book.
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Old 09-18-2017, 05:08 PM
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I hear ya.. but let me say that honestly, I am 110% confident that I can easily hit even a small, say 6 X 6 back stop, at 25 yards and NEVER miss, or accidentally fire when not clearly aiming at it etc, But.. I have serious concerns about what the Police may feel is a sufficient back stop for the area I am working with..
and NO, I would not be allowing anyone else to shoot on my property..

P.s.. I am not implying that a 6X6 would ever fly as a back stop to begin with, but just saying..
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Old 09-19-2017, 12:43 AM
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this is ROUGHLY the lay out of the area..
To be specific, my biggest concern is the "back 40" section that you describe as full of junk. That area is only 200 yards away. A stray round can find it's way there and the unknown junk can cause a ricochet. Or the place could have a random person walking around there at just the wrong time.

It's not about how good a shot you are. It's about what could go wrong.

That said, it's your place. Build the best back stop you can and determine your level of risk. Just remember, that risk may include risk to others.
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Old 09-19-2017, 01:22 AM
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Quote:
Pro2nd wrote:
I hear ya.. but let me say that honestly, I am 110% confident that I can easily hit even a small, say 6 X 6 back stop, at 25 yards and NEVER miss,
Actually, I don't think you do.

Regardless of your assumed abilities (what happens when you age?) what happens when you invite a friend over and their skills aren't quite up to your standard? Who is liable when the friend's shot hits a neighbor or "ventilates" their home?
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Old 09-19-2017, 01:36 AM
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Actually, I don't think you do.

Regardless of your assumed abilities (what happens when you age?) what happens when you invite a friend over and their skills aren't quite up to your standard? Who is liable when the friend's shot hits a neighbor or "ventilates" their home?
I clearly stated in my reply above, that I would not be allowing ANYONE else to shot in my yard...

And as far as age, if my shooting ever got THAT bad, then I need to just pack it in man..
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Old 09-19-2017, 09:10 AM
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I'll just make a comment. I both teach NRA basic rifle and have officiated at numerous "sight-in-days" at our local range. While we've never had any errant discharges at the basic rifle training, we have had it happen at "sight-in-days" with "experienced" hunters just sighting in their gun. You might be able to hit the center of the target on any back stop but what about the 1 errand discharge in 10,000 or in 50,000 that escapes the intended target? Where will that land? Remember, while an ammo box may state that it is dangerous 1 mile or 1.25 miles, a high power rifle round fired at the right (wrong) angle can travel up to 7 miles (rounds like 30-06, 270 win) and the magnums can go even farther. I've witnessed one rifle discharging upon the closing of the bolt. It happened to fire in a safe backstop but many close the bolt at times with the muzzle facing about 30-40 degrees upward. If that happened, where will the bullet hit your "safe" 6x6 backstop? Plan for the worst and do everything possible to get the best!
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Old 09-19-2017, 10:33 AM
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You could design a range and plot a surface danger area diagram that complies with AR385-63 and still get complaints. Even with million to one odds something will get off the reservation, folks will claim you hit their property or disturbed their peace.

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Old 09-19-2017, 10:53 AM
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During wars they used sandbags to stop incoming bullets for a good reason. Sand stops bullets. Most all caliber handguns will not penetrate through 6" of sand. A rifle might take a few more inches of sand to stop.

I have a bullet trap consisting of about 2' of sand backed with oak 6" planks. I have yet to see any bullet go through this trap. I have shot 12ga shotgun slug, 30/30 and all calibers of handguns. About once a year I clean the bullets out of the sand and I don't think I have seen any bullets even reach the oak planks.
I paid $18 for a yard of sand and I got the planks for free from work. The planks are used when transporting Trucks piggyback. You can't make an effective bullet stop much cheaper than that.
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Old 09-19-2017, 02:42 PM
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It's the accidental discharge round that really is a big concern. Most people can hit a backstop easy enough but sometimes things go wrong. A gun can be dropped or on rare occasions a bullet can be cooked off. I've only seen that once in 54 years of shooting but it was enough to make me wary of ever pointing a gun the wrong way at any time. I was following the safety rules when it happened but still. It's possible that a slight slip up could cause disaster.

I know the fun of shooting in your own yard. Heck I can sit in my living room and shoot safely out the door to my target area. I used to shoot during the winter that way. I have lots of windows so I could see anyone that might happen to be coming (rare considering where I live). But it's not worth taking a chance. I've heard of too many houses that took a bullet in deer season because of someone making a mistake.

To be honest anything short of a 20' mound of dirt really isn't going to be adequate where you are and even that has risks. I have a hill across the creek from my house. I'm basically shooting down into a hole. I will say that a local gun range has a 20' mound of dirt and the neighbors complain about bullets grazing trees down range beyond that backstop. That probably came from people shooting the ground in front of the backstop which is a bad idea. That gun range is in a very remote area but they get lots of complaints about it. So that gives you some idea of how cautious you have to be.
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Old 09-19-2017, 02:59 PM
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I hear ya..
I'm pretty much over the idea..
i'm not going to say that I will never reconsider..
but as it stands, I would lack the resources etc to come up with something that would pass go with the local police and of coures the safety issue..

I have places i can legally shoot that are not all that far away, and a couple allow rapid fire etc.. (closest being about 8 miles, the rapid shoot ranges about 20, but thats not really that far at all.)
so really, this seems like it would be more trouble, and cost then it would be worth..

If I ever do decide to go for it, I'll be sure and post back on what I came up with etc..

thanks for all the replies..

this location is about 20-25 miles from my house, most of which is highway, so its a quick trip, and they also allow rapid fire here..
Pic is a bit deceiving, the hill in the background is farther away then it seems to appear in this pic..
DNR approved.. Often times there will be police officers, and or military members etc target practicing there.. and everyone is really cool and very safety conscious..



the place has seen a LOT of brass (and steel case) over the years.. In some places it is literally inches deep.. this is but a VERY small area, where as the width of the shooting FROM area, is a solid 100ft wide..



the area you shoot from, is lined with LARGE concrete blocks, about ten or so of then, spaced apart a little ways..
this is me one day.. LOL


Last edited by Pro2nd; 09-19-2017 at 03:17 PM.
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Old 09-19-2017, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gman51 View Post
I have yet to see any bullet go through this trap.
It's not the bullets that hit the back stop that are the problem.
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Old 09-20-2017, 09:50 AM
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If the OP has alternatives 8 & 20mi away , then that is probably the easiest way to go for a general purpose shooting range .

A reduced scope backstop at 5-10yds , could be doable . It would allow function testing of guns, and chronographing at home .
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