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Old 09-19-2017, 11:51 AM
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The “Approved List” Of 5.56 NATO/.223 Rem Self-Defense/Duty Ammo | Prepared Gun Owners
Found a interesting article on home defense ammo
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Old 09-20-2017, 07:08 AM
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Nice. Just what I was looking for.
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Old 09-20-2017, 08:59 AM
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Good read. I'm a fan of Speer Gold Dot, glad to see it on the list. Unfortunately it's hard to get that some time so I use the Hornady TAP which is also on the list.

Anyway, thanks.
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Old 09-20-2017, 09:14 AM
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I'm thinking the bigger question is whether an AR15 is the ideal home-defense weapon. Obviously, it's a good choice for defending the entire property during civil unrest, but for a in-house, bump-in-the-night situation, I think a pistol is much more practical.
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Old 09-20-2017, 10:08 AM
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I'm thinking the bigger question is whether an AR15 is the ideal home-defense weapon. Obviously, it's a good choice for defending the entire property during civil unrest, but for a in-house, bump-in-the-night situation, I think a pistol is much more practical.
Unless there are four guys busting your front door down in a home invasion. Then it's "Say hello to my leetle friend".
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Old 09-20-2017, 10:10 AM
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Good read. I'm a fan of Speer Gold Dot, glad to see it on the list. Unfortunately it's hard to get that some time so I use the Hornady TAP which is also on the list.

Anyway, thanks.
You might find the 64 gr Gold Dot on sale right now at Palmetto State Armory. $9.99 per box, free shipping on 10.
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Old 09-20-2017, 11:04 AM
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I'm thinking the bigger question is whether an AR15 is the ideal home-defense weapon. Obviously, it's a good choice for defending the entire property during civil unrest, but for a in-house, bump-in-the-night situation, I think a pistol is much more practical.
Pros and cons to both... but if something goes bump in the night and I have time to get up out of the bed and choose a weapon, it's going to be a long gun.
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Old 09-20-2017, 11:25 AM
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Ballistic gel tests are widely used because they offer a uniform medium for comparison and in that respect are useful. But, recommending a particular bullet as "the best" for self defense principally on the basis of gel tests and windshield penetration is problematic. The reason is very simple, human beings are not amorphous blobs of ballistic gel. Human beings have flesh, bone, muscle, fat, cartilage and even empty spaces that will all affect the performance of the bullet, making true assessments of its ability to take someone out of a fight much more involved than just shooting it at a gelatin blob.

As the article said, the "best" ammunition is the one you shoot regularly - particularly the one you shoot well enough and often enough to be proficient and accurate. This why I invested considerable time and expense in developing a standard 223 round to be used in all my rifles.
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Old 09-20-2017, 01:28 PM
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Unless there are four guys busting your front door down in a home invasion. Then it's "Say hello to my leetle friend".
Yeah,maybe. And maybe it'll be 14 guys with their dobermans busting your front door down, so maybe we should all invest in an M-60 machine gun.
We can play this hypothetical Alien-Ninja-Zombie invasion till the cows come home, and use it to justify any number of increasingly absurd actions (which actually seems to be the bread-and-butter of gun and survival forums).
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Old 09-20-2017, 01:31 PM
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I'm thinking the bigger question is whether an AR15 is the ideal home-defense weapon. Obviously, it's a good choice for defending the entire property during civil unrest, but for a in-house, bump-in-the-night situation, I think a pistol is much more practical.
My AR15 is a pistol.. now what?
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Old 09-20-2017, 03:59 PM
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One problem I have with a lot of these reviews, is that they ignore the over-penetration of the ammo. When a round is designed to go through auto glass, and then take out the goblin, it's too potent for HD. It can go through multiple walls.

The only test that I've seen, is one posted on Utube by Valor Ridge.
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Old 09-21-2017, 04:22 AM
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Yeah,maybe. And maybe it'll be 14 guys with their dobermans busting your front door down, so maybe we should all invest in an M-60 machine gun.
We can play this hypothetical Alien-Ninja-Zombie invasion till the cows come home, and use it to justify any number of increasingly absurd actions (which actually seems to be the bread-and-butter of gun and survival forums).
I suppose criminals must be more independent or fair minded where you're from and only break into homes single handed. In the rest of the country, we've had several situations where three or more individuals committed robbery or home invasion. What you consider absurd might be reality for others. To each his own.
If I'm defending interior of my home, Ar-15 probably not the weapon I'll grab first. But if I'm defending both interior and external, pistol or shotgun might not be enough for the job.
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Old 09-21-2017, 07:08 AM
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Took the time to watch the video,interesting results. Wish they had tested .45 ACP and some big bore revolver lead bullets.
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Old 09-21-2017, 07:30 AM
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I suppose criminals must be more independent or fair minded where you're from and only break into homes single handed. In the rest of the country, we've had several situations where three or more individuals committed robbery or home invasion. What you consider absurd might be reality for others. To each his own.
If I'm defending interior of my home, Ar-15 probably not the weapon I'll grab first. But if I'm defending both interior and external, pistol or shotgun might not be enough for the job.
As a resident of the Metro Detroit area I cannot dispute that there may be times when a handgun may not be enough to stop a home invasion. However in this areas almost every single one of those multiple perpetrator entry events are against homes believed to be "holding" either drugs or cash in large amounts. Unfortunately there have been several events where it's obvious the invaders either got the wrong house or believed rumors that weren't true. But the rest of the time it boils down to one gang hitting another gangs "safe house". Point being that a lot of these concerns are overblown.

There is also the matter where most of us keep our rifles. Me, unless I am cleaning it or doing some other work on it my rifles are in my safe. What I have at hand 100% of the time is a loaded Ruger LC9S in my right front pocket. So, come a home invasion that is what I will be using to defend myself. I suspect that most of us don't keep a loaded rifle within reach so all this concern about what to use in a rifle to defend out home is simply a waste of time.

About the only event where that may be a valid area of concern is if there is a riot in full swing in your neighborhood, then it would be wise to keep a rifle loaded and at hand. However most of us live in neighborhoods that are stable enough and at an income level where a full blown riot is highly unlikely, myself included.
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Old 09-21-2017, 08:33 AM
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There is also the matter where most of us keep our rifles. Me, unless I am cleaning it or doing some other work on it my rifles are in my safe. What I have at hand 100% of the time is a loaded Ruger LC9S in my right front pocket. So, come a home invasion that is what I will be using to defend myself. I suspect that most of us don't keep a loaded rifle within reach so all this concern about what to use in a rifle to defend out home is simply a waste of time.
This is a pretty big assumption that could be quite wrong about "most of us"... while a rifle or shotgun may not be on a person, many homes keep one loaded and accessible outside of the safe. I believe that having a long gun in the corner or bedroom closet is more likely than most people having their pistol on their body 24/7 in their home.

I don't have a firearm on me or within reach 24/7 in my home, but I do have them accessible. However, a firearm is only one layer of my home security. I keep the windows and doors locked. We have an alarm system. We have a dog that alerts when someone or something is near the home... these layers come into play before the firearm, and hopefully will give me the time to get to the firearm if needed... and if the closest firearm is a handgun, it will be used to work my way back to my bedroom for a long gun.
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Old 09-21-2017, 09:19 AM
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I suspect that most of us don't keep a loaded rifle within reach so all this concern about what to use in a rifle to defend out home is simply a waste of time.
I have 2 AR's and 3 pistols within 2 steps of where I sit most of the time in my house. And yes they are all loaded. I have a .45, a 9mm and a .380 all close by. And the AR's of course.

I guess I learned from my dad that it's a good idea to have a gun within reach when you might need it. He kept S&W revolvers under every couch cushion among other places. My wife freaked when she learned she had been sitting on a .357 in dad's truck. I told her she needed to watch where she sat but she didn't believe me I guess. It's pretty hard to make a double action revolver go bang just by sitting on it I guess. It never happened but I wouldn't go to the extremes dad did.

FWIW I don't live in a city. I live in a very rural area. I've lived in this house 4 years. I think I've seen one deputy car come down the road. That's it. We are responsible for our own protection in these parts.

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Old 09-21-2017, 11:52 AM
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I suspect that most of us don't keep a loaded rifle within reach so all this concern about what to use in a rifle to defend our home is simply a waste of time.
Mine sits in the corner with the muzzle down in a position that I can grab it passing by and deploy in an instant.
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Old 09-21-2017, 03:57 PM
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Mine sits in the corner with the muzzle down in a position that I can grab it passing by and deploy in an instant.
I keep a .300blk suppressed in the corner of the closet with a ejectable chamber flag in the chamber. Pull the charging handle and I'm loaded up with no ears required. I also keep loaded handguns hidden on every floor of the house. I'm semi-rural where I live.
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Old 09-21-2017, 05:44 PM
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I keep a .300blk suppressed in the corner of the closet with a ejectable chamber flag in the chamber. Pull the charging handle and I'm loaded up with no ears required. I also keep loaded handguns hidden on every floor of the house. I'm semi-rural where I live.
I've got to up my game...
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Old 09-22-2017, 12:40 AM
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I'm not worried about a riot, I'm worried about the meth heads who are cruising the back roads and decide my house might have something they want. I'm worried about the terrorist training camp that is not too far from me who will one day decide it's time to make a move. Yes I am serious, right up the road in good old Dover TN. Think I'm crazy, check it out.
I'm worried about the earthquake that is very likely to hit my area soon. What happens when the bridges are all sunk, the power's been out for weeks, the store shelves are empty, and your house is not far from the federal housing projects?
I live in a rural area where response time for LEO would be 20min on a good day, more likely to be 30min or more. I have a loaded weapon of some kind hidden in every room of my house and all family members who have been trained to use them know where they are. I won't divulge what I keep loaded within reach of my bed, but suffice it to say they are all inaccessible or unusable to the occasional grand child who might wander in.
People can call me paranoid, absurd, crazy, or whatever else they want. They're not the ones responsible for protecting my family.
People who only consider the status quo will be the ones unable to provide for and protect their family when the status quo changes and SHTF. So if someone wants self defense ammo for an AR-15, by all means find some. They don't have to justify it to me or anyone else.
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Old 09-22-2017, 12:58 AM
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In Nam when I had to give up my M14 for an M16 I felt li,e they were trying to kill me. The Army ha had them for a while and soldiers were dying because of them. The dirt, sand and grit in Nam made them inoperable, and they had to be field stripped in the middle of battle to get them operational again. I have no ide how many men died and were wounded, but once it passed one it was too many.

The round was inferior if you had to engage beyond 150 yards. It was useless after 200 yards.

Did you ever see modern photos of infantry Marines with M4 and M16 rifles. They all have scopes on them. Reason: unless you make critical hit you will not stopr the enemy. I am a one shot one kill Marine. I could do that with my M1 and M14. It was really hard with a M16.

For close in combat we had guys with 12 gauge shotguns lodged with buckshot. You think you might have to defend your home, get one.
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Old 09-22-2017, 01:10 AM
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Point being that a lot of these concerns are overblown.
My favorite are the nearly incessant 'Guns for cougar and bear defense in the woods' (on forums in my region being the PNW) Some of these threads are laughable considering the irrational fears some describe and knowing full well the chances of a cougar or bear attack are on par with that of a lightening strike (for one no recorded attack on a human by a cougar EVER in Oregon - and that factors our unusually LARGE population of them) Bears are probably even less of a threat and most encounters are of the South end of the bear heading NORTH very quickly AWAY from the person. In nearly 40 years of woods walking, backpacking, hunting fishing etc. the most 'dangerous game' I ever encountered have been dogs (dumped two), an injured raccoon and two hard looking, seedy characters while on a backpacking trip but were easily avoided by an unscheduled additional three mile hike further down the trail. Oh, I don't want to sound like I don't carry, I always do but it's more of a 'force of habit' than due to any perceived fears and mostly because a lot of my outdoor activities include shooting if only impromptu - but I have never considered a threat so great in the woods as to inhibit any of my enjoyment in it.

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Old 09-22-2017, 02:16 AM
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Yeah,maybe. And maybe it'll be 14 guys with their dobermans busting your front door down, so maybe we should all invest in an M-60 machine gun.
We can play this hypothetical Alien-Ninja-Zombie invasion till the cows come home, and use it to justify any number of increasingly absurd actions (which actually seems to be the bread-and-butter of gun and survival forums).
Around here, home invasion by multiple assailants is a cottage industry.

Please see following posts where a home owner's son in Metro Tulsa engaged three intruders with an AR-15:

Three fatalities in Oklahoma....
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Old 09-22-2017, 10:17 AM
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My favorite are the nearly incessant 'Guns for cougar and bear defense in the woods' (on forums in my region being the PNW) Some of these threads are laughable considering the irrational fears some describe and knowing full well the chances of a cougar or bear attack are on par with that of a lightening strike (for one no recorded attack on a human by a cougar EVER in Oregon - and that factors our unusually LARGE population of them) Bears are probably even less of a threat and most encounters are of the South end of the bear heading NORTH very quickly AWAY from the person. In nearly 40 years of woods walking, backpacking, hunting fishing etc. the most 'dangerous game' I ever encountered have been dogs (dumped two), an injured raccoon and two hard looking, seedy characters while on a backpacking trip but were easily avoided by an unscheduled additional three mile hike further down the trail. Oh, I don't want to sound like I don't carry, I always do but it's more of a 'force of habit' than due to any perceived fears and mostly because a lot of my outdoor activities include shooting if only impromptu - but I have never considered a threat so great in the woods as to inhibit any of my enjoyment in it.
I live in Wisc, and although encounters are rare as you state, we do have run-ins with bear. A few years ago i was walking my dog and we came across momma bear with a cub. It wasn't a good situation. i was NOT armed (before we had CCW) and backed away quickly. She did follow us down the back road for a bit but we were close to civilization. So i wouldn't call this extremely rare. It happens.
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Old 09-22-2017, 11:50 AM
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SRT says: It's better to have a gun and not need
it, than need a gun and not have it.
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Old 09-22-2017, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
cyphertext wrote:
...while a rifle or shotgun may not be on a person, many homes keep one loaded and accessible outside of the safe.
Texas law requires that guns be stored in such a way that they are not accessible to children or if accessible have a lock or other disabling device installed.

Many other states have similar laws.
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Old 09-22-2017, 05:11 PM
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Please no pointed fmjs. But I have a feeling that that is what many people would use.
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Old 09-22-2017, 05:15 PM
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Texas law requires that guns be stored in such a way that they are not accessible to children or if accessible have a lock or other disabling device installed.

Many other states have similar laws.
Uh huh... and "outside the safe" doesn't necessarily mean "accessible to children"...

And what about this...

Gun Control: 15-Year-Old Defends Sister From Burglars With AR-15 Rifle
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Old 09-22-2017, 07:38 PM
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In nearly 40 years of woods walking, backpacking, hunting fishing etc. the most 'dangerous game' I ever encountered have been dogs (dumped two), an injured raccoon and two hard looking, seedy characters
I wish I was as lucky as you. I've had far more serious encounters in the woods. Some of them include a park bear used to being fed by humans most likely shadowing me and my wife wanting food for a quarter of a mile on a trail too far off the road to get back safely if something happened. The bear followed along near us behind the thick brush to one side of the trail. This was all on a ledge that continued to get more narrow to the point that it got about 3 feet wide where we had to descend to a lower level. The bear obviously knew that was a choke point because it was close enough I could smell it plainly when we got there. And we had no food to give it and no gun because it was a park and I foolishly obey park rules and left my gun in the truck. I decided that was the point we had to turn around instead of finishing our hike. We slowly made our way back up the trail and up the mountain to the road with my wife leading the way and me covering the back watching for that aggressive bear.

Then there was the pack of feral dobermens. Someone obviously left them there to keep people off their property (I know who did it most likely - he was involved in a land dispute and there were people logging the land he was fighting over). There's nothing like 7 half starved wild dogs big enough to kill a human all chasing after little old me. Luckily I was on an ATV at the time and was coming down off a mountain across that property on the logging road. I hit the gas and was ahead of the dogs on the road which had just turned into a regular road instead of the logging road. If I had been forced to take the logging road they would have caught me.

Then there was the idiot that decided to point a bow at my back because I got off federal land by about 10 feet before I realized I was on private property. I was turning around when I saw him.

Then there was the group of 3 hunters standing in the middle of the ATV trail on government land refusing to give me room to get by on my ATV. I got by them by increasing my speed substantially daring them to try to stop me. They clearly had bad intentions though.

Then there was the group of thugs that decided I had no business on the property up the hill behind my house even though I had permission from the owner. They blocked the trail with an ATV and came after me - armed. It wasn't until I convinced them the owner, the one guy's brother, had told me I could ride there and a boy about 13 said he had seen me talking to the owner that they backed off. They would have not liked the situation much if they had pulled the large knife they had with them that was clearly intended to scare me. I was carrying concealed - a Sig P220 .45.

This list is long. I'll shorten these stories a big. There was the rabid fox at my front door that didn't run when I went outside to see why it was so close to the house, the bear in my neighbor's grain barrel that didn't like it that I disturbed it's feasting and it stared me down from about 30 yards away until I remembered the firecrackers I kept in my shop and tossed a pack at it (lit of course). And there is the bear that constantly clacks its teeth at me when I cook on my grill (I live in the woods), there was the lab that growled at my wife and daughter in our yard because it wanted to steal my dog's food. It was half starved. I fixed that with a bullet. There was the two labs that thought we were invading their space when I first built my house and the neighbor didn't control her dogs. Another neighbor ended that threat with arrows. There's the guy who threatened to kill me and my whole family because we wouldn't grant him a right of way across our property so he could sell to a developer of fishing camp sites for drunks. I know that guy killed one person and cut the throat of another. There's the bears on my farm that don't give ground so quickly.

I have a bunch of these stories. Bears are a real threat where I live because there are so many of them now. They are raiding yards and barns looking for dog food, grain barrels, etc.

As for attacks there have been more bear attacks in the last decade than in all of recorded history of Europeans in this country. You should read the stuff the owner of Buffalo Bore, the ammo maker, has to say about bear attacks. It''s not as rare as you think. Here's the link. The guy lives it. He's not a vacation hunter. Here's the article.

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Old 09-22-2017, 11:57 PM
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Yeah, I love it when suburbanites think the rest of the country lives in the same circumstances as they do. We don't have bears yet in my area, but we do have feral dogs and coyotes causing problems around here. I haven't heard of any attacks on humans recently, but pets and livestock are commonly attacked. I've witnessed first hand what a couple of those cute little coyotes can do to a full grown German Sheppard.
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Old 09-23-2017, 12:18 AM
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Here's an article about a woman being attacked in the town I grew up in. If you can call it a town. It's where my farm is. It is not far from where I live. A while back a woman was killed there by dogs.

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Old 09-23-2017, 05:57 AM
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I've lived in a major city. I've spent a year out in a rural area. I now live in a suburb. Each area presents it's unique challenges that must be met head on in a manner suitable to the environment and the proclivities of the individual.

When I lived on Chicago's West Side next to the little Italy neighborhood, the probability of encountering two legged predators was high. Back then, there was no concealed carry. Chicago laws stated you could own a gun, but you couldn't keep it in the Chicago city limits. I remember gun stores outside Cook County would rent small lockers to store personally owned firearms of Chicago residents. I had to make do with a bat inside my apartment, a knife of illegal length concealed in my pocket, and pepper spray in my backpack. Given this time in my life, I would have liked to have had a pistol on or near me 24/7 & a 12 gauge loaded with buckshot in my apartment. The threat level was high and constant.

When I was in a rural area for a short time, it was an adjustment. Less population density, more space, more peace. People were nice to the new guy (me). They were wary until I proved I wasn't an idiot. The threat level was worlds lower and less constant. The environment was different. I'd have more of a chance to encounter an aggressive animal. The chances were greater that if someone was to invade my home, it would most likely be some meth addled transient from a different county. I changed along with my environment. I had a pistol near me. Because of the increased distance between neighbors, a rifle was a viable long gun choice.

I live in a typical suburb, in Lake County, Illinois adjacent to Cook County. The threat isn't as constant as it was on the West Side of Chicago, nor is it at the relative peacefulness of a rural area. It's in between. I can now legally conceal carry a pistol. I conceal carry a pistol wherever it is permissible by law. The distance between my home and adjacent neighbors makes over penetration an issue. Home invasion is a possibility along with encountering a wild or badly trained domesticated animal. I need my hands to open doors, grab family, hold a phone. A pistol suits my primary needs. A shotgun with birdshot is in my fall back room.

Every situation is different. I used to keep an AR-15 in my fall back room. I was worried about over penetration, so I purchased frangible ammo. The issue becomes the frangible projectile could induce a catastrophic failure of the AR-15 at the worst possible time on a potential two-way range. My choice given my current circumstances, age & experience, is a shotgun with birdshot in my fall back position is the best solution.

Of course, if a regional or national disaster induces a failure/absence of law enforcement, then the tools and tactics change.

Gotta remain flexible. Nothing is static.
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Old 09-23-2017, 04:06 PM
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Less population density, more space, more peace.
This is the only point I might disagree with you on. Mostly it is safer than living in a city (been there and done that and bought the t-shirt) but there is a threat. People in my home county have been met at the door by shotgun wielding lunatics that fire through the door before it's opened. And the distance between houses encourages break ins. Gangs of locals make a living and support their drug habits by this method. It's harder to do a break in when you live in a city because too many eyes are on you.

The county I live in managed to be the 10th worst in the country for violent crimes. Dead bodies have been dumped a couple of miles from my house, I picked up a guy who was hanging halfway over a cliff with a huge knot on his head from a baseball bat swung by car jackers, there's a rest area where gays have been murdered in their cars, a woman shot her drug dealer and half his family and these things all happened within 5 minutes of my house. And yes my house was broken into by that out of the county drug fiend but that was when my daughter lived in my house alone and spent long hours at work. As long as I'm at home, I'm disabled and retired, I feel pretty secure. But not totally. An idiot fired 3 shogun rounds not more than 30 yards from my house because he didn't like me shooting so much. They called the sheriff twice and both times they gave me an OK on my setup each time. Mind you this is a guy who is part of a large drug dealing gang that lives a quarter of a mile up the road and they have loud parties, as in high volume rock bands, up until 4 or 5 in the morning. I've never complained. But that guy who fired those rounds doesn't know how close he came to me returning fire. He was just trying to scare me but I didn't know that at first. I did catch up with him and let him know I knew who he was. He threatened to kill me about 50 times and went on his way.

I could tell a lot of stories like this from the gang of bank robbers who kidnapped my uncle to be their getaway driver when he was 12. The cops always shoot at the driver. When he escaped and made it back to the family farm they came looking for him wanting him back. Grandma told them he was in the house and so was Grandpa with his shotgun. They thought better of trying to invade an unknown space and left. There are idiots who think they can set up for deer hunting on my hill with their field of fire in direct line with my house not more than 200 yards away. They didn't see my house because it's heavily wooded but they could have fired right through my house. My neighbor caught those guys.

There was the lumber thieves who cut down $5000 worth of my trees and threatened me when I told them to stop. There's the two bikers who rented the double wide up the hill from me, covered the windows with black plastic, and showed up once a month for about 2-3 hours. Then they sold the place and moved on. No reason to suspect a meth lab there or maybe just a pot growing operation.

The woods can be full of dangerous types even in a rural area. I generally keep most of them away by putting on a demonstration of firepower once in a while. 30 rounds of 7.62X39 fired off in a few seconds generally gets the point across that I may not be the guy to mess with. The local burglar gangs have to know about me. They have never tried to break in when I lived in my house.

But anyway life in the woods can be more dangerous than some think. If you haven't lived there a while likely as not you wouldn't notice the threats as clearly. It's just a matter of knowing what to look for.

I almost forgot. A few miles from my temporary home (also in a rural area) 8 people were shot to death in what was clearly a drug related situation. They were growing massive amounts of pot in their home. The woods are full of skunks.

Eight people shot to death in four locations near Ohio's Adams/Pike County line | WKRC

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Old 01-04-2018, 06:55 PM
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My favorite are the nearly incessant 'Guns for cougar and bear defense in the woods' (on forums in my region being the PNW) Some of these threads are laughable considering the irrational fears some describe and knowing full well the chances of a cougar or bear attack are on par with that of a lightening strike (for one no recorded attack on a human by a cougar EVER in Oregon - and that factors our unusually LARGE population of them) Bears are probably even less of a threat and most encounters are of the South end of the bear heading NORTH very quickly AWAY from the person. In nearly 40 years of woods walking, backpacking, hunting fishing etc. the most 'dangerous game' I ever encountered have been dogs (dumped two), an injured raccoon and two hard looking, seedy characters while on a backpacking trip but were easily avoided by an unscheduled additional three mile hike further down the trail. Oh, I don't want to sound like I don't carry, I always do but it's more of a 'force of habit' than due to any perceived fears and mostly because a lot of my outdoor activities include shooting if only impromptu - but I have never considered a threat so great in the woods as to inhibit any of my enjoyment in it.
Having spent considerable time in the SE as a biologist doing field work on turtles, I always packed a handgun, as recommended by all of the many game wardens I knew and consulted with. Their (and my) concern was with two-legged varmints (as well as occasional rabid animals or aggressive dogs). I usually had one of my own well-trained dogs along as an early warning system. Seemed an additional deterrent to those seedy -I mean SEEDY- critters I ran into. Of course, being a hunter in season, it felt natural to be armed anyway.

Black bears always made directly for the nearest exit, in my experience, even with cubs nearby. But it is useful to recall that there are several documented cases (NC and Alberta) of black bears being successful predators on humans. So I preferred a .41 magnum, just keep straight exactly who was going to be on the menu.
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Old 01-04-2018, 07:23 PM
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I didn't have to get far on "the list" to find it off topic. LE/Mil duty ammo generally isn't the best selection for self defense. Let me 'splain that.

First off, unless your possible defensive use (you really expect to find a car full of hostiles in your living room?) includes engaging folks inside autos. you really don't need bonded core bullets. Nor is blowing through doors/walls in the house to reach the BGs.

Secondly, LE doctrine generally is that approach to a suspect be from two directions if possible (see L ambush for the military version). The officer facing the suspect is generally the contact person, the officer off to the side is the cover officer. This suggests that more penetration is really needed to make sure the shot reaches vital areas despite passing through limbs of the body going side to side of the body rather than front to back. This is why the FBI mandates 12 inch minimum penetration.

Now that that's out of the way, what's been established in testing is that light weight .223/5.56 bullets penetrate less building material than most defensive/service handgun bullets. They are a tad low on penetration should you face a large economy size intruder and/or have to shoot at an angle. A lot of teams generally go with a good 55 gr expanding bullet and try real hard not to miss.

On frangible bullets: Barnes makes the RRLP 55 gr bullet that has a jacket to ensure integrity during the feed cycle and a copper matrix core. Marvelous on steel, in drywall the bullet loses stability but remains intact. A 55 gr bullet going sideways at 2900 f/s isn't much different than one going point first. Does pretty much travel in a straight line. The whole idea is kinda neat, but not real applicable to the problem at hand, nor are many of the unjacketed frangible.
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Old 01-06-2018, 02:42 AM
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This is a pretty big assumption that could be quite wrong about "most of us"... while a rifle or shotgun may not be on a person, many homes keep one loaded and accessible outside of the safe. I believe that having a long gun in the corner or bedroom closet is more likely than most people having their pistol on their body 24/7 in their home.

I don't have a firearm on me or within reach 24/7 in my home, but I do have them accessible. However, a firearm is only one layer of my home security. I keep the windows and doors locked. We have an alarm system. We have a dog that alerts when someone or something is near the home... these layers come into play before the firearm, and hopefully will give me the time to get to the firearm if needed... and if the closest firearm is a handgun, it will be used to work my way back to my bedroom for a long gun.
I am with you in thinking about "layers" of protection/deterrence.
In fact, I've made the same choices.

With luck, one layer will sound the alert early enough to abort any intrusion. (My bet is on the dog.) But my final step is to have a handgun nearby so I can reach a long arm. Indeed, it was Col. Jeff Cooper's advice to think of a handgun as something to use to allow you to reach a rifle (or shotgun).

(There are times I am tempted to add my Lee-Enfield .303 WITH it's 18-inch bayonet to my at-hand armory. After considerable practice, I can work that bolt very quickly, and if that isn't enough, that blade should convince anyone they are dealing with a person who is serious about survival. Or just maybe, nuts! Who knows which impression would be more effective?)

One of my several concerns is that the very ammunition currently chosen as "ideal" for LEO use (and watch, these criteria will change once again the next time there is a mess as there was in Miami) is a liability in an apartment complex. So in a rifle, I am looking at the sturdier varmint rounds; duck and goose loads in a shotgun. (I do back these up, after the first few rounds, with Gold Dots or HST ammunition, or buckshot.)

In reality, I think I took the most important step in protecting my family by moving us from an increasingly crime-prone area (where I carried a snubbie even in the house) to a very safe area. The drop in my insurance rates alone proved the difference! But a set of guns are still handy.

Stay safe!
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Old 01-06-2018, 03:15 AM
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This is a pretty big assumption that could be quite wrong about "most of us"... while a rifle or shotgun may not be on a person, many homes keep one loaded and accessible outside of the safe. I believe that having a long gun in the corner or bedroom closet is more likely than most people having their pistol on their body 24/7 in their home.

I don't have a firearm on me or within reach 24/7 in my home, but I do have them accessible. However, a firearm is only one layer of my home security. I keep the windows and doors locked. We have an alarm system. We have a dog that alerts when someone or something is near the home... these layers come into play before the firearm, and hopefully will give me the time to get to the firearm if needed... and if the closest firearm is a handgun, it will be used to work my way back to my bedroom for a long gun.
I am with you in thinking about "layers" of protection/deterrence.
In fact, I've made the same choices.

With luck, one layer will sound the alert early enough to abort any intrusion. (My bet is on the dog.) But my final step is to have a handgun nearby so I can reach a long arm. Indeed, it was Col. Jeff Cooper's advice to think of a handgun as something to use to allow you to reach a rifle (or shotgun).

(There are times I am tempted to add my Lee-Enfield .303 WITH it's 18-inch bayonet to my at-hand armory. After considerable practice, I can work that bolt very quickly, and if that isn't enough, that blade should convince anyone they are dealing with a person who is serious about survival. Or just maybe, nuts! Who knows which impression would be more effective?)

One of my several concerns is that the very ammunition currently chosen as "ideal" for LEO use (and watch, these criteria will change once again the next time there is a mess as there was in Miami) is a liability in an apartment complex. So in a rifle, I am looking at the sturdier varmint rounds; duck and goose loads in a shotgun. (I do back these up, after the first few rounds, with Gold Dots or HST ammunition, or buckshot.)

In reality, I think I took the most important step in protecting my family by moving us from an increasingly crime-prone area (where I carried a snubbie even in the house) to a very safe area. The drop in my insurance rates alone proved the difference! But a set of guns are still handy.

Stay safe!
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Old 01-06-2018, 08:45 AM
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This is the only point I might disagree with you on. Mostly it is safer than living in a city (been there and done that and bought the t-shirt) but there is a threat. People in my home county have been met at the door by shotgun wielding lunatics that fire through the door before it's opened. And the distance between houses encourages break ins. Gangs of locals make a living and support their drug habits by this method. It's harder to do a break in when you live in a city because too many eyes are on you.

The county I live in managed to be the 10th worst in the country for violent crimes. Dead bodies have been dumped a couple of miles from my house, I picked up a guy who was hanging halfway over a cliff with a huge knot on his head from a baseball bat swung by car jackers, there's a rest area where gays have been murdered in their cars, a woman shot her drug dealer and half his family and these things all happened within 5 minutes of my house. And yes my house was broken into by that out of the county drug fiend but that was when my daughter lived in my house alone and spent long hours at work. As long as I'm at home, I'm disabled and retired, I feel pretty secure. But not totally. An idiot fired 3 shogun rounds not more than 30 yards from my house because he didn't like me shooting so much. They called the sheriff twice and both times they gave me an OK on my setup each time. Mind you this is a guy who is part of a large drug dealing gang that lives a quarter of a mile up the road and they have loud parties, as in high volume rock bands, up until 4 or 5 in the morning. I've never complained. But that guy who fired those rounds doesn't know how close he came to me returning fire. He was just trying to scare me but I didn't know that at first. I did catch up with him and let him know I knew who he was. He threatened to kill me about 50 times and went on his way.

I could tell a lot of stories like this from the gang of bank robbers who kidnapped my uncle to be their getaway driver when he was 12. The cops always shoot at the driver. When he escaped and made it back to the family farm they came looking for him wanting him back. Grandma told them he was in the house and so was Grandpa with his shotgun. They thought better of trying to invade an unknown space and left. There are idiots who think they can set up for deer hunting on my hill with their field of fire in direct line with my house not more than 200 yards away. They didn't see my house because it's heavily wooded but they could have fired right through my house. My neighbor caught those guys.

There was the lumber thieves who cut down $5000 worth of my trees and threatened me when I told them to stop. There's the two bikers who rented the double wide up the hill from me, covered the windows with black plastic, and showed up once a month for about 2-3 hours. Then they sold the place and moved on. No reason to suspect a meth lab there or maybe just a pot growing operation.

The woods can be full of dangerous types even in a rural area. I generally keep most of them away by putting on a demonstration of firepower once in a while. 30 rounds of 7.62X39 fired off in a few seconds generally gets the point across that I may not be the guy to mess with. The local burglar gangs have to know about me. They have never tried to break in when I lived in my house.

But anyway life in the woods can be more dangerous than some think. If you haven't lived there a while likely as not you wouldn't notice the threats as clearly. It's just a matter of knowing what to look for.

I almost forgot. A few miles from my temporary home (also in a rural area) 8 people were shot to death in what was clearly a drug related situation. They were growing massive amounts of pot in their home. The woods are full of skunks.

Eight people shot to death in four locations near Ohio's Adams/Pike County line | WKRC
All these stories you have and yet you still live there. Ever think of moving??
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Old 01-06-2018, 05:56 PM
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Unless there are four guys busting your front door down in a home invasion. Then it's "Say hello to my leetle friend".
My Dad always said, "use the right tool for the right job" !
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Old 01-06-2018, 08:30 PM
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Zombie thread, but hey, it's fun...

By far the most important sentence in the OP's article was this one:
Quote:
Only after proper foundational and ongoing repetitive refresher training, cultivating warrior mind-set, and ensuring weapon system reliability do you need to worry about ammunition selection.
Yet, this thread is another example of how people spend thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours on internet forums discussing/arguing about that which doesn't really matter.

If we spent as much time in training and practice as we do here, the type/caliber of ammo wouldn't matter at all. If it will work reliably in your gun, it will dispatch the bad guy if used properly. If not used properly, no amount of the "best" ammo will help.
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Old 02-15-2018, 11:03 AM
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Unless there are four guys busting your front door down in a home invasion. Then it's "Say hello to my leetle friend".
they'll have to get by Angus and my wife first and if they do, I'll be waiting for them in the bedroom with my #4 buck loaded 870 with pistol back up. Too much penetration with the AR
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Old 02-15-2018, 03:34 PM
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There's big difference between reasonable preparedness and obsessive paranoia where some think about this stuff incessantly. You can play "what if " situations forever. These threads seem to stir the highly opinionated.

There are, of course, exceptions to everything. AR15s are probably poor choices for use in regular neighborhoods where folks live in close proximity. In a rural area, maybe okay. But, it would seem like there would be extremely few situations where a 12 ga. with buckshot and / or handgun wouldn't work just fine.
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Old 02-15-2018, 04:02 PM
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FWIW the article is from early 2016 so there have been new types of ammo coming out. Hornady sells a TAP GMX Barrier ammo that is designed to accomplish what the author of the list says is important. There are no doubt other new types of ammo designed for barrier blind effectiveness.

Also I thought the comment about, "If stuck with 1/9 twist barrels..." was a little much. It's not like there is a night and day difference between a 1:8 and a 1:9 or even a 1:7. Both my AR's stabilize pretty well at higher weights (and lengths) and one of my rifles is 1:9 and the other is 1:8. I doubt either would stabilize anything over 70 gr but there are many bullets that are effective at lower weights.

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All these stories you have and yet you still live there. Ever think of moving??
The key word is I still "live" there. They haven't killed me yet. And it isn't exactly safer living in a city where murder rates are often ridiculously high. I learned how to protect my family and myself a long time ago. I may have forgotten some things but not that. Besides living in the woods like I do is about a million times better than living anywhere near a town. I have a national forest close by that covers a huge area and I have an ATV to ride the hundreds of miles of trails in that forest. I'll never give up country living until I'm in a nursing home or something.


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Old 02-15-2018, 05:24 PM
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Oh, around the ol homestead...

I like these,



.
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Old 02-15-2018, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by C J View Post
This is the only point I might disagree with you on. Mostly it is safer than living in a city (been there and done that and bought the t-shirt) but there is a threat. People in my home county have been met at the door by shotgun wielding lunatics that fire through the door before it's opened. And the distance between houses encourages break ins. Gangs of locals make a living and support their drug habits by this method. It's harder to do a break in when you live in a city because too many eyes are on you.

The county I live in managed to be the 10th worst in the country for violent crimes. Dead bodies have been dumped a couple of miles from my house, I picked up a guy who was hanging halfway over a cliff with a huge knot on his head from a baseball bat swung by car jackers, there's a rest area where gays have been murdered in their cars, a woman shot her drug dealer and half his family and these things all happened within 5 minutes of my house. And yes my house was broken into by that out of the county drug fiend but that was when my daughter lived in my house alone and spent long hours at work. As long as I'm at home, I'm disabled and retired, I feel pretty secure. But not totally. An idiot fired 3 shogun rounds not more than 30 yards from my house because he didn't like me shooting so much. They called the sheriff twice and both times they gave me an OK on my setup each time. Mind you this is a guy who is part of a large drug dealing gang that lives a quarter of a mile up the road and they have loud parties, as in high volume rock bands, up until 4 or 5 in the morning. I've never complained. But that guy who fired those rounds doesn't know how close he came to me returning fire. He was just trying to scare me but I didn't know that at first. I did catch up with him and let him know I knew who he was. He threatened to kill me about 50 times and went on his way.

I could tell a lot of stories like this from the gang of bank robbers who kidnapped my uncle to be their getaway driver when he was 12. The cops always shoot at the driver. When he escaped and made it back to the family farm they came looking for him wanting him back. Grandma told them he was in the house and so was Grandpa with his shotgun. They thought better of trying to invade an unknown space and left. There are idiots who think they can set up for deer hunting on my hill with their field of fire in direct line with my house not more than 200 yards away. They didn't see my house because it's heavily wooded but they could have fired right through my house. My neighbor caught those guys.

There was the lumber thieves who cut down $5000 worth of my trees and threatened me when I told them to stop. There's the two bikers who rented the double wide up the hill from me, covered the windows with black plastic, and showed up once a month for about 2-3 hours. Then they sold the place and moved on. No reason to suspect a meth lab there or maybe just a pot growing operation.

The woods can be full of dangerous types even in a rural area. I generally keep most of them away by putting on a demonstration of firepower once in a while. 30 rounds of 7.62X39 fired off in a few seconds generally gets the point across that I may not be the guy to mess with. The local burglar gangs have to know about me. They have never tried to break in when I lived in my house.

But anyway life in the woods can be more dangerous than some think. If you haven't lived there a while likely as not you wouldn't notice the threats as clearly. It's just a matter of knowing what to look for.

I almost forgot. A few miles from my temporary home (also in a rural area) 8 people were shot to death in what was clearly a drug related situation. They were growing massive amounts of pot in their home. The woods are full of skunks.

Eight people shot to death in four locations near Ohio's Adams/Pike County line | WKRC
You came close to returning fire WOW

Last edited by Balright; 02-16-2018 at 07:01 AM.
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Old 02-20-2018, 09:51 AM
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Watch these videos testing penetration. The short answer is an AR is a fine choice for HD.
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