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Old 09-24-2017, 02:02 PM
Geezer with an AR Geezer with an AR is offline
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Default Long range for old eyes

I know we have some older guys here with lots of experience.My question is,I have an interest in long range shooting,I have had cataract sugery with lens implants,will good glass overcome my aged eyes and let me shoot accurately at 5-800 yds,I know the glass won't make me a good shot just wonder if they would give me the capability of shooting well,thanks.
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Old 09-24-2017, 02:16 PM
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I have very bad astigmatism. I still do well if my scopes are focused for my eyes even if the cross hairs are not as defined as they were 40 years ago. Remember to refocus all your scopes every time you get a new optical prescription.
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Old 09-24-2017, 02:41 PM
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Also have astigmatism, and wear bifocals. So for me a scope is a definite plus. My Sport II normally wears a 3x9 scope. And all of my T/C Contenders are scoped.

A couple of suggestions for you. One, watch the weight of the scope. Heavier is not always better. Two, don't get sold on the BDC idea. Their generally designed for a 55gr fmj at around 3200fps. Any change from that and they'll be somewhat close. Three, go and actually look through the scopes you're thinking about. Adjust the focus, and see what shows up at some distance.
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Old 09-24-2017, 03:20 PM
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I have a Nikon Monarch 4-16x44SF on my DMR I'm 65 and have no problems making accurate shots out to 500 yds. For the money I've been pleased with the scope and if your a hand loader they offer custom turrets for what ever load you choose. My rifle likes Sierra 65 gr SBT over 23.7 grs of AA #2460 the best. Once I had the load worked up I contacted Nikon gave them the ballistic data they sent me a set of turrets exactly for that load. Once installed and zeroed you dial in shots out to 600 yds without calculation, at that point only windage and distance become a factor. To make all this work well you'll need to know the distance as closely as possible, at a range it's not a big deal in the field a good range finder is a must.

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Old 09-24-2017, 03:37 PM
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I am currently running a 2.5X10.. and honestly wish it went a bit higher..

My eyes are not the best, but still..

that Nikon Monarch 4-16x44SF is looking pretty nice!! (Might need to get me a stash can to save some $$ for it)..
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Old 09-24-2017, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pro2nd View Post
I am currently running a 2.5X10.. and honestly wish it went a bit higher..

My eyes are not the best, but still..

that Nikon Monarch 4-16x44SF is looking pretty nice!! (Might need to get me a stash can to save some $$ for it)..
There certainly are more pricey and maybe a little better scopes out there but for around 500 bills the Nikon is hard to beat. The glass on mine is clear all the way up to 16x, plus the added feature of the custom turrets if you hand load.
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Old 09-24-2017, 03:58 PM
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I am currently useing s 6X24 Bushnell 4500 series lite on my 22 cal Anschutz rifle. It a 190 sportster bolt action repeater in very nice shape for a 1966 rifle. That on Sale was $500.00 by itself and does a really nice job at both 50 and 100 yards.
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Old 09-24-2017, 04:40 PM
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I HAVE TWO BITS OF ADVICE FOR YOU, GEEZER.....

THE FIRST IS, DEFINITELY GET THE CATARACT SURGERY ! ! !

THE SECOND IS, DO YOUR HOMEWORK WELL, AND DON'T TRY TO SCRIMP ON SPENDING THE MONEY FOR A TOP QUALITY SCOPE ! ! !
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Old 09-24-2017, 04:47 PM
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The short answer to your question is; yes. Even with aged, altered eyes, you can shoot to those distances.


Long distance shooting is an art unto itself. As one instructor said, "It doesn't start to get real until 500 yards. That's when you realize just how hard it is to shoot long distance."

Any quality scope will have an adjustable ocular lens (the one next to your eye). You would have to have really bad eyesight not to be able to adjust it for your vision.

More magnification is not the answer. At 800 yards, 12x magnification is plenty. I have a Vortex Razor HD Gen II 3-18x50 scope. When I was at one school, I found it more favorable to dial it back to 15x or even 10x which helped reduce the effect of the mirage. Yes, I shot better with the lower magnification.


Before I go further, a couple of questions...
What rifle/round do you intend to use for this endeavor?
Do you reload?
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Old 09-24-2017, 06:27 PM
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WOW $500 Just looked at Nikon on eBay right at $500,that brings up another problem,should I buy a less expensive optic while saving for the Nikon or just wait
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Old 09-24-2017, 06:50 PM
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If $500 is shockingly expensive for an optic, maybe long distance shooting isn't for you.

Seriously, good optics are expensive. I've said it before; I can shoot 1/2MOA with a $500 rifle and a $1,500 optic. I can't shoot even 1MOA with a $5,000 rifle and a $50 optic. However, even a $3,000 optic won't help if you're not willing to put in the time and ammo.

Some think they can just head out to the range, sight in on an 800 yard target and hit it with every shot. That's just not true. It takes time and practice and learning.

Yes, you can shoot long distance with a less expensive scope, but it will be much easier with a good one. If $500 is really that shocking to you, look closely at the SWFA line of scopes. They make decent enough scopes in your price range. Consider the fixed 12x.
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Old 09-24-2017, 07:29 PM
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First I didn't say anything about not putting in the time or ammo,so your saying your first optic was a high dollar optic and you just jumped right in there.Some of us don't have that kind of money right off the bat,and if $500 is what it takes and I make that decision to go down that road,even if I have to save a bit I'll do it,but being retired and on fixed income sometimes it takes me a while to do things
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Old 09-24-2017, 11:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geezer with an AR View Post
First I didn't say anything about not putting in the time or ammo,so your saying your first optic was a high dollar optic and you just jumped right in there.Some of us don't have that kind of money right off the bat,and if $500 is what it takes and I make that decision to go down that road,even if I have to save a bit I'll do it,but being retired and on fixed income sometimes it takes me a while to do things
Did you get the military discount for Vortex?

I grabbed the Vortex Viper 6.5x20 and can use the x20 easily with no tunneling. With the discount they run in the $340 range.
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Old 09-24-2017, 11:42 PM
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Rastoff,my plans are to use 556 and no I don't reload,hdrolling,no discount on vortex,just Trijicon,and looking at eBay,he prices are pretty close to the discount
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Old 09-24-2017, 11:46 PM
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Thank you gentleman,you've all given me plenty to think about
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Old 09-25-2017, 01:56 AM
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I had cataract surgery. BAD astigmatism and getting worse. Ha d a TORIX (sp?) lens put in the left and was able to skate by with a regular lens on the right.
About a year and a half ago.
My eyes stay pretty dry now, but the ability to see my crosshairs and iron sights is an amazing thing.
So, to answer your question, I think you will be fine.
I like Leupolds, but Nikon, Burris, SWFA, and Vortex make some good stuff.
SWFA is a good site to check out. And check out their Sample List.
Optics planet is good.
And AMAZON is pretty handy, also.
Have fun!
Oh. I'm 64, so I feel your pain. LOL
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Old 09-25-2017, 04:57 AM
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You'll get a lot of opinions.

We have 500 meter matches at our club (I don't participate). Now and then an old guy with an AR wearing a BSA Platinum scope will show up and score better than most everyone with top-shelf glass. I think he uses an inexpensive scope just to PO the other guys, and it works , cuz I've seen the equipment this guy has and he ain't worried about money.

Truth of the matter is that for sunny day recreational shooting holding on the target at 500yds doesn't require super duper glass.

Earlier mentioned was SWFA. They sell a decent budget optic for $299. Lot's of guys over at SnipersHide slap a SWFA SS on their expensive builds until they can afford a NightForce or whatever other high-end glass they intend to acquire. The guys seem quite impressed with them. That's where I learned about em. Track well and mechanisms hold up well to abuse that I can attest to. I have a fixed 16x SWFA SS on one of my long range .22s. Shooting from 50yds to 300yds with standard velocity .22LR requires a lot of turret cranking! And my tired old eyes appreciate the large well marked turrets. Mine has performed exceptionally well for years though it's eye box isn't very forgiving. I think I'd buy the fixed 10x or 12x next time.

Happy optics hunting.


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Old 09-25-2017, 07:47 AM
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OP, good scopes tend to cost as much as a rifle.
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Old 09-25-2017, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
If $500 is shockingly expensive for an optic, maybe long distance shooting isn't for you..
Exactly what I was thinking. The OP has already taken this the wrong way, and gotten defensive, but sometimes the truth hurts, no offense meant.
IMO, the OP is fighting a losing battle, on several fronts (all of which pretty much apply to me,as well, so I'm not judging him).
The OP is getting on in years, and already has vision issues. Plus, he's already ackowledged financial limitations.
As Rastoff said, maybe long distance shooting isn't the best use of the OP's time and resources. That's not being negative, that's just shooting him straight.
While he can obviously do as he likes, and can probably dabble in longer-distance shooting a bit and have fun, the reality is that pursuing extreme distance shooting with expensive optics and match-grade ammo is still probably going to be an excersize in frustration and ever-increasing cost.
You know, there's nothing wrong with just doing some recreational precision shooting in the 100-400 yard range, with irons and/or a less expensive scope. That's alot more realistic than 500-800 yds for an AR15, anyway.
Again, that's just my take on it, nothing to get worked up over, just shootin' the breeze here.
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Old 09-25-2017, 04:23 PM
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So instead of telling me what I should do or can do I'm told your wasting your time.Dont take it the wrong way,sounds like the wrong way to me.Well this will give you boys something to talk about when I'm gone.
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Old 09-25-2017, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geezer with an AR View Post
So instead of telling me what I should do or can do I'm told your wasting your time.Dont take it the wrong way,sounds like the wrong way to me.Well this will give you boys something to talk about when I'm gone.
We're here to help, maybe let us know your budget?

When you ask about scopes and don't list a budget it tends to draw the crowd that already spent the big bucks on optics, because really good optics are expensive.

Give us a budget and maybe you can get some input from what other use in your price range, also waiting for sales during the holidays will save you a bunch if you can hold out.
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Old 09-25-2017, 09:21 PM
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Geezer,

I am pretty much in the same boat as you. Before I advance a suggestion, I have to ask, are you looking to shoot a position style match (200 standing, 200 sitting rapid, 300 prone rapid, 600 prone slowfire), mid-range prone (300, 500, 600 yards), or 1000 prone?

My eyes are starting to go, I have cataracts forming. Due to accident injuries, I had to forego service rifle matches, and I now shoot F class mid-range and long-range. For my mid-range rifles, I have judiciously purchased older El Paso Weaver T10 and T16 scopes. These scopes can be had for about $300 +/-, and they WILL do the job. It was not until I purchased a Remington 700 Long Range in 7mm Remington Magnum that I purchased a Viper Vortex PST scope. I can see a difference in the quality of the optics, but I couldn't justify that expense for my first scope, when I didn't know if I could handle the rifle or positions with my injuries.

I will be more than happy to help you through your dilemma.
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Old 09-25-2017, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geezer with an AR View Post
Rastoff,my plans are to use 556 and no I don't reload,...
OK, now we're cooking with gas.

My point earlier about the expense is that it's expensive to get serious about long distance shooting. My first, second, third, etc., scopes were of the el cheapo variety. To a unit they were a disappointment. It wasn't until I finally broke down and spent about $350 that I realized just how much difference a quality scope could make. And none of those were for long distance.

When I started thinking about shooting beyond 200 yards, I did a ton of research on just scopes. It was then I realized that scopes can easily crest $2K and more. A friend told me a reasonable calculation to save for was $100 per X. So, $1,600 on a 16X scope is not unreasonable. But that is just a wild guess and no such math is really reasonable.

My first serious long distance scope was a Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 with an mrad reticle and turrets. I think I paid $900 for it and it has been a great scope.

Do you need to spend that much to get a long distance scope? No, but my point is that these things are expensive and go up in price very quickly as you add durability and features. So, don't be surprised if people recommend spending a little more.

The SWFA is indeed a decent enough scope. The reticle lines are just a tad wider than I like, but there are limitations when on a budget; that's just life. I would highly recommend either the fixed 12x or the fixed 16x for your purpose, but I lean toward the 12x more. That extra 4x isn't really adding any significant difference and will make the mirage more difficult to deal with.


Using .223Rem or 5.56x45 for longer shots is certainly possible, but takes a little more thought and control. Because of the low mass, the .223 bullets are easily moved by any wind. Because of this, out to 500 will be challenging, but can be done. Beyond that will really test your ability.

I asked about reloading because factory ammo is inconsistent in the amount of powder they use. Without reloading, you'll need/want match grade ammo and that will increase the expense.

I know some of this can be daunting. I want you to succeed so, I don't want to sugar coat anything. I've watched many shooters head out to the longer target ranges and just get irritated when they didn't put all the rounds in the middle. I'm speaking from experience when I say, hitting a target at 800 yards is difficult. I hit a target at 1,250 yards once and was elated, but emphasis on once. I missed it a few other shots.

This is a target of mine at 300 yards with a .308 rifle:
Long range for old eyes-20170908-300-yards-measured-jpg

As you can see, this 5 shot group is nothing to write home about, but it is sub MOA. My point of aim was the tip of the A as shown by the circle with the cross hairs. Even with an 18x scope, I can just make out the A and put my cross hairs on it. At 800 yards, I would be aiming for the middle of the whole 2'x3' target. I might be able to shoot this group with a .223 and my regular cheap ammo, but I suspect the group would be twice this size. At 800 yards I'd be happy to hit a 4'x4' target with a .223 rifle.

Again, I want you to succeed. Don't be surprised when you hear of expensive equipment and ammo.

If you want, I can go into why I picked the reticle I did for my long distance scope.
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Old 09-26-2017, 10:38 AM
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Much of what Rastoff is saying is correct. Personally even having 2000+ invested in my DMR I really don't consider it a rifle to take beyond 500 yds .22 cal don't do real well at longer ranges. For 500 to 800 I'll use my .308 over 800 my CZ 550 Magnum H.E.T. II in .338 with a nightforce scope will do the job. All this gets pretty costly and that's not considering all the test ammo I've loaded.
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Old 09-26-2017, 10:57 AM
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If your just looking to put on a good clear scope, then the sky and your budget are the limit. If you want to compete in NRA & CMP match's then rules apply. MUCH has been written on the military competitive forums on what optics rule there.
( From recent NRA rule change)
"The rifle may have an optical sight (reflective sights are considered optical sights) with a
maximum power of 4.5X installed on the receiver. Variable scopes with a maximum of
4.5X are permitted. Only commercially manufactured scopes that were produced with a
maximum magnification of 4.5X and that have a maximum objective lens of 34 mm may
be used. If an optical sight is used, the same optical sight must be used in all stages of a
course of fire (changing sights is not permitted). The centerline of an optical sight shall be
no higher than 3.5 inches above the centerline of the bore."
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Old 09-27-2017, 12:35 PM
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A Weaver T-36 is a very good scope for about $450. It's used by a lot of target shooters. It is a fixed scope so it's not good for most things - just target shooting and long range shooting. If you go too far on the distance mirage becomes a problem with high powered scopes though. But I shoot 500 yards with a T-36 without problems even on hot days.
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Old 09-28-2017, 07:12 AM
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I DID NOT WISH TO DISCOURAGE THE OP, MY FELLOW GEEZER, WITH THIS STATEMENT, BUT IT IS COMMON FOR SERIOUS SHOOTERS TO SPEND MORE ON OPTICS, THAN THE WEAPON ITSELF......

IMHO, BUYING THE BEST SCOPE THAT YOU CAN AFFORD, RIGHT NOW, AND STASHING AWAY MORE MONEY, IS A GOOD IDEA. THIS BUYS YOU TIME TO GATHER MORE INFO. YOU MAY FIND THAT THE LESS EXPENSIVE SCOPE IS REALLY ALL THAT YOU NEED. TRY TO STAY COMPLIANT WITH THE NRA SCOPE REGS, TO MAXIMIZE INTEREST IN YOUR SCOPE, IF/WHEN YOU DECIDE TO SELL IT......

GOOD LUCK, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, HAVE FUN ! ! !
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