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Old 11-09-2017, 10:24 AM
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Help! New guy getting ready to buy first AR. Really like the Sport 2, but the Anderson AM15 keeps popping up in the back of my mind. (maybe partially because I live 3 miles from Anderson).

Give me pros/cons all around?
Do I need to be concerned about 1:9 vs 1:8 for a general plinking range fun gun?

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Old 11-09-2017, 11:36 AM
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Which Anderson AM15 are you looking at? What features does it have that you want vs. the features on the Sport? Does it come close to the way you want your rifle right out of the box?
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Old 11-09-2017, 12:15 PM
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For your stated purposes, 1-9 or 1-8 is fine. So is 1-7. In similar configurations, both Anderson and S&W would be fine choices.

"Pros and cons all around"

Well... as Cypher mentioned above, purchasing an AR in the configuration you want is key. By far, the most common issue I see is purchasing a standard configuration rifle with plastic handguard and A2 front sight then wanting to change it to a longer free float handguard and eliminate the A2 front sight with a folding sight or none at all.

Once ya got the configuration set in yer head, that's the time to consider brands. If ya want A or B great. But if ya really want B but are thinking of buying A to save a couple bucks, I'd suggest think about it some more.

Happy AR hunting.

A


B

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Old 11-09-2017, 12:28 PM
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Thanks for the input. I think for my first AR, I don't see myself getting into free floating a hand guard and feel like the common
A2 sight would serve my purposes.

If I wanted to get into deep modifications like that at a later date, I could always look into getting another at a later date.

On the other hand, I can see the appeal of a OR rifle, but then I would have to turn around and spend more $ on sights right away also.
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Old 11-09-2017, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Parrot-Head View Post
On the other hand, I can see the appeal of a OR rifle, but then I would have to turn around and spend more $ on sights right away also.
Choice B does not equal OR (Optics ready is really a misnomer, since you can use optics with the A2 front sight)... There are rifles that come with the flip up sights out of the box that are not that much more than the price of the Sport, basically the price of the Sport plus the rail (or less).

But if you think you want the fixed front sight, nothing wrong with that... I like the A2 sight myself.
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Old 11-09-2017, 12:49 PM
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I have never shot an AM15 but I do own a Sport and another AR. The Sport is way more accurate than I expected. It's also been flawless since I bought it. I like the stock setup except for the fact it has no heat shield. I replaced that which cost about $35. I added a red dot and I couldn't be happier with it. The S&W warranty is pretty important too.
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Old 11-09-2017, 10:59 PM
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Just get a Sport. If you get more into it down the line, upgrade. I've got over 30 guns in the house, and a Sig M400 for a few years before I got the Sport and I don't have any issue with it. I added a bunch of junk to it of course, but it was a good gun out of the box.
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Old 11-10-2017, 09:22 AM
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The AR accessory market has probably put more kids through college/paid off mortgages than any recent development that isn't transistorized. The purposes you mention would be well served by a Sport. You can always accessorize/reconfigure later.

Somewhere on the internet, there are pictures of ARs buried in accessories. My favorite has a Rolls hood ornament and a '55 Chevy spotlight among other "had to haves".
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Old 11-10-2017, 09:27 AM
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My Sport 2, using IMI 55 grain, FMJ, can benchrest 1-2 inch, 100 yard groups, with a 3X Vortex Spitfire scope, with very rarely a flyer. Someday, I'll try a high power scope on it, as I believe it's capable of even better. I got very lucky with this one.
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Old 11-10-2017, 04:23 PM
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Thanks for all the replies. Will keep my eye open for a deal on a Sport 2.
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Old 11-10-2017, 06:52 PM
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@OP,

I shoot ARs in competition a lot. I use to shoot a Colt HBAR in Service Rifle competitions before I became disabled. I now shoot a home built (more like assembled) AR for use in F T/R matches, ranging from 600 to 1000 yards.

Please allow me to address your questions.
1. Re: twist ... this will influence how far you want to shoot accurately. [Re: accuracy, I am looking at it as a target shooter striving for 1.5 MOA as a service rifle, about 0.6 MOA for a match rifle.]
1a. With a 1:9 twist, the heaviest bullet you can launch accurately would be close to a 72gr, out to about 500 yards, maybe 600 on a really good wind free day. Expect that you could launch a 55gr bullet accurately to about 300 yards, but pray if you have much wind.
1b. With a 1:8 twist, you can launch an 80-85gr bullet accurately to about a thousand yards, provided that you keep the bullet supersonic at the target. It should launch a 55gr bullet accurately to about 300 yards, also. On paper, I have a working thousand yard load, but it peters out by 1017 yards ... it is hard to test, since my home range is 1039 yards.
2. Re: plastic or nylon handguard. The handguard does much more than keeping your hand from getting burned by a hot barrel! Not all handguards are free floating. The handguard is under considerable stress from the torque inflicted by the sling, when you use a sling. Personally, I would recommend that you look at a rifle with a metal (aluminum or steel) handguard, which does free float the barrel.

As an aside. Unless you are equipping your entire family, you can get away with a single lower, with any variety of uppers. I have 3 interchangeable uppers for my "AR", a 26" 1:8 heavy barrel that is free floated for F class matches, a 24" 1:8 heavy varmint barreled upper that was going to be my "spacegun" match rifle before I became disabled, and an 18" 1:8 heavy barrel for a CQB rifle. All of my rifles are mission specific, and in this case, an AR platform can be adapted to a specific mission in under 3 minutes! In some instances, you can build an upper for under $125. Consider purchasing an AR with a quality lower, and run from there. A 1:8 twist can be more versatile and not limit your ammo selection. You can also change cartridges within "family", just by changing the upper.
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Old 11-10-2017, 07:09 PM
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I have an Anderson Optic Ready AM 15 and I like it. Nice bare bones start. What drew me to it was the fact I want paying a ridiculous price for all the fluff Id end up changing anyway. As it turns out I haven't changed anything but the stock, (a bit too bare bones)

I'm also a former M&P 15 owner.
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Old 11-10-2017, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Parrot-Head View Post
Thanks for all the replies. Will keep my eye open for a deal on a Sport 2.
Anything under $500 is good. You might find a special sale closer to $450 during the holidays.

$489 - Smith and Wesson M&P-15 Sport II Black .223 / 5.56 NATO 16-inch 30Rd
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Old 11-10-2017, 09:49 PM
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I have an Anderson Optic Ready AM 15 and I like it. Nice bare bones start. What drew me to it was the fact I want paying a ridiculous price for all the fluff Id end up changing anyway. As it turns out I haven't changed anything but the stock, (a bit too bare bones)

I'm also a former M&P 15 owner.
I remember you... you are the guy that destroyed the upper and turned the lower into the police department instead of giving S&W a second chance at repair...
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Old 11-11-2017, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
With a 1:9 twist, the heaviest bullet you can launch accurately would be close to a 72gr, out to about 500 yards
I have a bolt action .223 with a 26" barrel. It likes 75 gr. bullets (Sierra boat tail to be exact) best of all especially at 500 yards. I've shot groups as small as 1" at 500 yards with it. It probably averages about 6" if the wind isn't real bad. If the winds is blowing a lot I don't try to shoot past 300 yards.
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Old 11-11-2017, 07:43 PM
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I have a bolt action .223 with a 26" barrel. It likes 75 gr. bullets (Sierra boat tail to be exact) best of all especially at 500 yards. I've shot groups as small as 1" at 500 yards with it. It probably averages about 6" if the wind isn't real bad. If the winds is blowing a lot I don't try to shoot past 300 yards.
I was going to call bull on this, until I read this:
Amazing! Wagner Shoots 0.349″ (50-2X) Group at 600 Yards << Daily Bulletin

There were other articles about amazing, 5-600, even thousand yard, verified shot groups. Good shooting.
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Old 11-13-2017, 07:21 PM
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I was going to call bull on this, until I read this:
This video shows someone shooting 450 yards with the exact same rifle I'm using. They are accurate shooters. The group in the video is typical for what I'm seeing with my Savage 12 LRPV. I have links where shooters in F/TR have done really well with basically the same rifle against custom built rifles if you'd like to see those. The one group I shot that was really accurate was a lot of luck and a really good batch of ammo. As soon as it ran out so did the accuracy on that level. But with the right loads I can shoot pretty consistent as long as the wind isn't bad.

The club I started to join near Cincinnati has a 600 yard competition. I talked to the range master and he said nearly everyone shooting well was using the LRPV. But the guy in your link was shooting 6mm Dasher which is a much better round for long distance. People do amazing stuff with that caliber.

Savage Arms Model 12 LRPV at 450yds - YouTube
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Old 11-13-2017, 07:57 PM
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Some people prefer the entry level Ruger over the Sport 2. I don’t own either, but I believe the Ruger has a 1/7 twist.
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Old 11-13-2017, 10:14 PM
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Some people prefer the entry level Ruger over the Sport 2. I don’t own either, but I believe the Ruger has a 1/7 twist.
One in eight.
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Old 11-15-2017, 02:45 PM
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Does the Sport 2 have M4 feed ramps? I'm taking a close look at the Del-Ton Echo for the price it has some nice features. The spec information on the S&W site is pretty sparse.
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Old 11-15-2017, 03:34 PM
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Does the Sport 2 have M4 feed ramps? I'm taking a close look at the Del-Ton Echo for the price it has some nice features. The spec information on the S&W site is pretty sparse.
Yes, the Sport 2 has M4 feed ramps. You would have to look pretty hard to find one manufactured without that today.

The only thing that I see that Del Ton offers that the Sport doesn't is a heavy buffer and a heat shield in the hand guard.

However, the Sport offers a rear sight and a nitride treated barrel (Armornite), where it looks like the Del-ton has an untreated and unlined barrel.

For me, I would take the Sport for those two reasons, everything else being equal.
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Old 11-15-2017, 03:51 PM
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When I prepare to buy a new firearm, I read all I can find about the choices I am considering. I don't ask someone to pick one for me. Perhaps I am misunderstanding what happens here, but I make my own decisions. If you are asking for advice, buy a Colt.
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Old 11-15-2017, 04:02 PM
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When I prepare to buy a new firearm, I read all I can find about the choices I am considering. I don't ask someone to pick one for me. Perhaps I am misunderstanding what happens here, but I make my own decisions. If you are asking for advice, buy a Colt.
That's exactly what I am doing. I don't see where I specifically asked someone to pick one for me.
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Old 11-16-2017, 06:26 PM
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When I prepare to buy a new firearm, I read all I can find about the choices I am considering. I don't ask someone to pick one for me. Perhaps I am misunderstanding what happens here, but I make my own decisions. If you are asking for advice, buy a Colt.
Have a cold one!
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Old 11-20-2017, 12:07 PM
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The Sport 2 is a great option with one caveat, that being you have no pans to free float it. It's not difficult, nor particularly expensive, but it is a pain in the rear end and is not cost effective when you can purchase an equal quality free floated upper and equal quality lower for the same $. My first AR outside of the USMC was the M&P OR model which I still have. I free floated it twice now- the first was the then popular quad rail set-up. It now has a 15 inch Diamondhead handguard set up. The barrel is a 1:9 Chrome lined. It's a fine rifle but serves as a spare for friends to shoot. I build my own AR's now using Aero Precision and Balistic Advantage components because I have become more particular about certain specs. Bottom line I want what I want. If your positive you never intend to free float then fine- enjoy your Sport 2.

Ok, back to my earlier point- if I'm you right now I'm looking at Black Friday specials on complete rifles or separate uppers and lowers at Primary Arms or Palmetto State Armory. Often times these specials will even include Magpul MBUIS sights. You'll also get 1:7 or 1:8 rifling. I have a complete Radical Firearms AR pistol, a 7.62x39 upper, and more miscellaneous PSA uppers, lowers, and generic parts than I can shake a stick at. No issues with any of it. I'm highly invested in all things M&P and am an S&W fan. In your case though, unless you really want the S&W name on your rifle I think you have better options to get started with something more upgraded right out of the box.

I just remembered one more thing: You will also see that some of the newer upper or complete rifle offerings from PSA, Radical, and others are coming chambered in .223 Wylde. That to me is also an upgrade from 5.56 NATO chambering. I just finished a 16 inch, and 10.5 build in .223 Wylde and am very pleased. Here's an example, and there are many other for even less. This one has upgrades including stock, muzzle brake, free float handguard, Ergo grip, and is a .223 Wylde in 1:8.

Radical Firearms 18" .223 Wylde 1:8 Rifle Length Rifle - 15" M-LOK MHR Rail FR18-223W-SS-15MHR-NZL

One more example that is more apples to apples with the Sport 2 except you get a Mid length gas system, nice free float handguard, and an Ergo grip for $449: Radical Firearms 16" 5.56 NATO 1:7 Mid-Length SOCOM Rifle - 12" KeyMod FHR Rail FR16-5.56SOC-12FHR

Last edited by Shoo2tr; 11-20-2017 at 12:48 PM.
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Old 11-20-2017, 02:39 PM
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I'd go with the S&W, partly because the S&W name/reputation makes them very easy to sell/trade on the used market should you ever want to (which I've found to be a highly useful criteria to apply, with virtually any product, regardless of how sure you are you'll never let it go).
Also, S&W's customer service is about as good as they get (which kinda ties back into reason #1).
I've been in and out of several Sport 1's and 2's, and they've all been 100% flawless, I think they're about the best bang-for-the-buck in AR's.
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Old 11-21-2017, 12:30 AM
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Quote:
The Sport 2 is a great option with one caveat, that being you have no pans to free float it.
My Sport is plenty accurate without being free floated. In face I've seen lots of rifles that shot very well without being free floated. It can be a benefit for sure but if the rifle shoots well anyway there isn't a lot to be gained from free floating.
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Old 11-21-2017, 09:42 AM
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My Sport is plenty accurate without being free floated. In face I've seen lots of rifles that shot very well without being free floated. It can be a benefit for sure but if the rifle shoots well anyway there isn't a lot to be gained from free floating.
Especially for most of us weekend warrier paper punchers.
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Old 11-26-2017, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Parrot-Head wrote:
Really like the Sport 2, but the Anderson AM15 keeps popping up in the back of my mind. (maybe partially because I live 3 miles from Anderson).
Well, there is something to be said for supporting the home-town team. I don't think you would go wrong with either rifle. When I was looking for an AR, I ended up buying a Sport II because 1) it had everything I wanted, 2) nothing I didn't, 3) the price was attractive, and 4) S&W's customer support is first-rate.
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Old 11-26-2017, 08:33 PM
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My Sport is plenty accurate without being free floated. In face I've seen lots of rifles that shot very well without being free floated. It can be a benefit for sure but if the rifle shoots well anyway there isn't a lot to be gained from free floating.
Swapping a to a free float handguard on a standard carbine has several benefits, but I would put improving accuracy at the bottom unless the shooter is putting a lot of tension on his sling which a free float handguard eliminates transferring that pressure to the barrel.

A longer free float handguard allows the shooter to extend the support hand and have more real estate for accessory positions while not crowding-out the support hand. The 'broomstick" was born of not having enough room on the carbine handguard for the support hand. Replacing the A2 front sight with a folding sight as well as a longer sight radius whatever that might be worth to someone. And mentioned earlier, taking sling pressure on the barrel out of the equation. And last but not least... a lot of guys like the looks and that's enough reason right there.
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Old 11-26-2017, 08:49 PM
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Default Light bullets are fine...

Light bullets are fine with the slower twist which in an AR can be as slow as 1:12, so for plinking and medium range target, the slower twist would be fine. If you want to load bullets 62 grains on up, you'll need the 1:7 twist.

100 yards is my max range and I don't hunt...so I could do with the very slower twist and still have some room to play with different bullets since I like to experiment.
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Old 11-26-2017, 08:49 PM
C J C J is offline
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No doubt there are reasons for a free floating barrel. My most accurate rifles are all free floated. But it doesn't always mean better accuracy. There are other reasons just as you say to go that route.
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Old 11-28-2017, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
ChatanoogaPhil wrote:
And last but not least... a lot of guys like the looks and that's enough reason right there.
And if that's why someone wants to make changes to their AR, then its a free country and how they spend their money is their own business (unless they borrowed it from me). But, the satisfaction of one-upping the guys at the firing range not withstanding, I decided that I'd rather have the money in my bank account.

And in the balance of needs and wants, we're all going to need to eat in retirement and it takes a lot of money to provide for yourself 10, 20, 30 or 40 years in the future.
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Old 12-02-2017, 06:11 PM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
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Light bullets are fine with the slower twist which in an AR can be as slow as 1:12, so for plinking and medium range target, the slower twist would be fine. If you want to load bullets 62 grains on up, you'll need the 1:7 twist.
Actually, 1-9 twist will stabilize up to and including 75 gr, depending upon length. Does extremely well with the 69 gr SMK and the 75 gr Hornaday HPBT-but not the A-Max. It also delivers superior accuracy for middle of the weight range bullet compared to the 1-7 twist. My bolt gun (1-9) has fired 3/8 " 200 meter groups with the Hornadays and the SMKs.
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Old 12-24-2017, 04:00 PM
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I have a S&W Sport II and it is a nice AR-15 for the price point and warranty. I can live with the 1/9 twist rate as I shoot a lot of 55 grain bullets at the range. I was a combat soldier in Vietnam in 1969 and trust me 55 grain bullets terminated lots of bad guys.
I also have a couple of PSA AR 15's with stainless barrels with 1/7 barrel twist rate. I play around with different heavier bullet weighs and I enjoy shooting all of them.
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Old 12-25-2017, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Parrot-Head View Post
Help! New guy getting ready to buy first AR. Really like the Sport 2, but the Anderson AM15 keeps popping up in the back of my mind. (maybe partially because I live 3 miles from Anderson).

Give me pros/cons all around?
Do I need to be concerned about 1:9 vs 1:8 for a general plinking range fun gun?

I haven't seen that you made a decision, but if Anderson is that close to you, do they sell direct? Maybe they will build what you want? As in I want a model ABC, but can you use this barrel instead?

My opinion, get a 1:8 if you can without too much trouble. Will handle just about anything from 50-77 grains just fine. So light and cheap 55s to 77 grain boat tail OTM rounds for longer range.
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Old 12-26-2017, 02:06 AM
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For what its worth, the 1:7 twist on my Sig shot its best groups with 50gr stuff. Isn't it supposed to do better with heavier bullets? Unless you are scoped and trying for 1/2" or something, I don't see it being a major ordeal. The majority of this shooting is with 55gr bulk stuff unless you just have deep pockets.
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