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Old 12-01-2017, 06:22 PM
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Default M&P 15 Sport 2 - Shooting low and right

Hello Folks,

I tried out for the first time my 12.5" rifle here in Italy. I'm no expert and this is my first rifle. All shots go low and to the right. Rifle has the MBUS Rear sight. Even the range istructor tried it out and he shot low and right too. I moved only the rear sights to left about 10 clicks but no reasonably difference was made. Do you think we both did something wrong or just moving the rear sight isn't sufficient to get to the center?

What do you suggest to troubleshoot this issue?

Thanks
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Old 12-01-2017, 06:42 PM
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At what distance is your target? What is the distance from your point of aim to your point of impact? In other words, how far to the right and low is it hitting from the spot you're aiming at?

Rear sight adjustment: MBUS(R) Sight – Rear

If you have the A2 style front sight, rotating the post to the right will raise the point of impact and to the left will lower it.
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Old 12-01-2017, 06:45 PM
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It's not uncommon to hear guys say that they have to adjust rear MBUS to one side to get it zeroed. Keep adjusting it. Assuming you have an A2 front sight? If not... if the front sight is mounted on a free float handguard then the handguard could be off center resulting in what you're experiencing. Front sight post for elevation of course.

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Old 12-02-2017, 04:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bamashooter View Post
At what distance is your target? What is the distance from your point of aim to your point of impact? In other words, how far to the right and low is it hitting from the spot you're aiming at?
Target was at 50 meters. POI was 7 to 10 inches to the right(see attach)

The strange thing is if I aimed 7 to 10 inches to the left from the center and even moving the rear site with some clicks, I was still to far from the center

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Originally Posted by bamashooter View Post

If you have the A2 style front sight, rotating the post to the right will raise the point of impact and to the left will lower it.
Stock front sight, so it should be A2(I uploaded a photo in the dedicated thread)

Stupid question: since I only touched the rear site, should I have seen progress at least to the left? Or not touching both could have caused this situation?
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File Type: jpg bersaglio.jpg (70.9 KB, 129 views)
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Old 12-02-2017, 11:23 AM
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Folks...I looked better and it seems with this target I'm to far to the left, so I have moved the MBUS too much. I have mechanically zereod front and rear(I bought the tool for front site) and tommorow I go back to the range and start from scratch at 25 meters

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Old 12-02-2017, 12:35 PM
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Good idea to go back to mechanical zero and start over...

Use this target to get you set up at 25m...
http://www.bobdbob.com/~deneb/doc/ta...rbine-zero.pdf

Ignore the directions about the elevation knob on your rear sight, as the Magpul rear sight adjusts for windage only.

Fire a group of three shots (or five), then adjust accordingly. The target will help show you how to move the sights.
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Old 12-02-2017, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
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Good idea to go back to mechanical zero and start over...

Use this target to get you set up at 25m...
http://www.bobdbob.com/~deneb/doc/ta...rbine-zero.pdf

Ignore the directions about the elevation knob on your rear sight, as the Magpul rear sight adjusts for windage only.

Fire a group of three shots (or five), then adjust accordingly. The target will help show you how to move the sights.
Thanks you very much. I'll update you all tommorow
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Old 12-03-2017, 09:11 AM
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Folks.. Something seems to be wrong. I hope it's me...

This is the MBUS after mechanical zero and about 12 clicks to the left.
As you can see about 1 hashmark from center




Didn't have a hard time with elevation. Here is the M4 target
Please consider the last 3 shots for elevation, the circled ones
I took the shots standing up



Some other shots at 25 meters, I think elevation could be fine. I know I can be more carefull




Here is 100 meters. Too much to the right. 10 shots from the bench





Next step??? I think 1 hashmark on the MBUS is excessive
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Old 12-03-2017, 10:21 AM
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Keep adjusting. You still have adjustment left. As long as it can zero and still have some adjustment, it is within spec.

But here are some things to look for... Is your front sight canted? If so, that would require sending back to the manufacturer.

You could also remove the rear sight and try reseating it. It is possible that it didn't get set square in the rail. When you re-install it, push it forward as you tighten.

If the front sight is not obviously canted and the rear sight seems to be mounted correctly, you could always try another rear sight.

Good luck!
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Old 12-03-2017, 04:17 PM
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Your last 25m target has the group right and low. You adjusted the rear sight to the left and it is still hitting too much to the right so keep adjusting it further to the left. The front sight needs to be lowered to bring your hits up.
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Old 12-03-2017, 04:19 PM
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Ok, I'll go to the left a bit more. But the magpull is already one hash mark to the left. I find this excessive, how about you?

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Old 12-03-2017, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry_Callahan View Post
Ok, I'll go to the left a bit more. But the magpull is already one hash mark to the left. I find this excessive, how about you?
It's an adjustable sight... keep adjusting it until zero.
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Old 12-03-2017, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry_Callahan View Post
Ok, I'll go to the left a bit more. But the magpull is already one hash mark to the left. I find this excessive, how about you?

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No, not excessive... It's adjustable for a reason. It's made to allow you to compensate for slight misalignment during manufacturing. But if the front sight is canted, that is an issue.

If you can get it to zero and still have a little adjustment left, it is ok. Might mess with your OCD mind, but it is within spec.
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Old 12-03-2017, 04:39 PM
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No, not excessive... It's adjustable for a reason. It's made to allow you to compensate for slight misalignment during manufacturing. But if the front sight is canted, that is an issue.
ok, clear
I'm no expert but the front sight doesn't seem canted. I immagine if it was canted it should be visibile to the human eye, am I correct or does this have to be checked in a more sophisticated manner?

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Might mess with your OCD mind
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Old 12-03-2017, 05:21 PM
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ok, clear
I'm no expert but the front sight doesn't seem canted. I immagine if it was canted it should be visibile to the human eye, am I correct or does this have to be checked in a more sophisticated manner?
It should be visible. You might have to take the Magpul sight off and look down the top of the receiver rail and see if the front sight lines up. If you take the rear sight off, look at it where it attaches to the rail... make sure that there is not any flashing, or anything that would keep it from sitting true in the rail. And when you put it on, make sure to push it forward and get it square to the rail.

If none of that works, you could send it in to S&W if it still bothers you, but I am assuming that is a big hassle since you are in Italy.
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Old 12-04-2017, 02:30 PM
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The rear iron sight on my old high power competition rifle zeros one hashmark left of center. I ignored the apparent misalignment because I figured that I could adjust it to hit center of target in any wind condition less than hurricane force.

FWIW, if you have astigmatism you may find that even properly aligned sights may need to be adjusted for you to hit center.
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Old 12-04-2017, 03:20 PM
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Ok, I'll go to the left a bit more. But the magpull is already one hash mark to the left. I find this excessive, how about you?

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Go until all your shots are left then bring it back to center / bull.
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Old 12-04-2017, 03:32 PM
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Remember on the rear sight, move the peep hole the same way you want your shot to move, but I think you are doing that already. People get really confused with sight movement. Front opposite, rear same.
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Old 12-04-2017, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry_Callahan View Post
Target was at 50 meters. POI was 7 to 10 inches to the right(see attach)
No need to agonize over this. With a carbine gas system you've got a sight radius of 14.5 inches. With a Magpul rear sight and 14.5in sight radius, one click of the rear sight moves POI about .75 inch at 100 meters.

You're shooting at 50 meters. That makes it two clicks to move POI .75 inch. You're shooting seven inches off. That would be 18 clicks at 50 meters. Count your clicks at home. Go to the range. You'll be on.

If you have lost track of where you were... fire a few shots to see where you are. Use the above formula. Move the sight all at once. No need to fool around a click or two at a time for initial zero. You can fine tune afterward.
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Old 12-05-2017, 03:29 PM
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Hello,

I went out and fired another 50 rounds. I had to move to the left another 8 clicks. 12 the last time and 8 today. This is what the 25m/300m target looks like(after 3 shots I decided to raise UP a bit on front site)



and the MBUS, one full hash mark to the left:



After these shots at 25 meters I asked a gentleman at the range to give it a try with a clean target at 100 meters(the orange ones I used in the past days). First shot he hit the 9 center above the 10

So, with all that correction if I did something wrong he would have be far to the left, instead he hit center(tiny bit high) very easy



I shot all the other rounds at 100 meters a bit high but all grouped toghether central
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Old 12-05-2017, 07:17 PM
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The MagPul MBUS sight is a good back up sight, but I find it to be too imprecise to use as a primary sight. It's made of plastic and the MBUS I had would flex, changing point of impact. If you can afford it, there are better sights than the plastic MBUS.

Zeroing your AR at 100 yards/meters will give you a good, usable trajectory to start out with.
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Old 12-06-2017, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
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The MagPul MBUS sight is a good back up sight, but I find it to be too imprecise to use as a primary sight. It's made of plastic and the MBUS I had would flex, changing point of impact. If you can afford it, there are better sights than the plastic MBUS.

Zeroing your AR at 100 yards/meters will give you a good, usable trajectory to start out with.
For my battle/SD rifles, they are all zerod at 100 yards and that's where I keep them. Great easy zero to use practically, all you need to worry about is holdover, no holdunder.

Anyway, OP, congrats on getting your Sport dialed in. It's always a good idea to learn to shoot and zero irons, so you have a great start. You'll soon move to an optic, but that's a topic for another day.
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Old 12-06-2017, 12:22 PM
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Folks....bad news...

The gun shop wanted to take a look at the rifle, for me the front sight didn't seem to have any issue...but for the shop owner it does

putting the rifle on a rest with a level and looking from the back to the front, the front sight is bent to the left

I hope this is an easy fix

Thanks to all
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Old 12-06-2017, 12:43 PM
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This what I was afraid of... Canted front sight base. Hopefully, the barrel is just not indexed properly and it can be turned and re-tightened so that the front sight base is in line with the upper receiver rail.
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Old 12-07-2017, 09:16 AM
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This what I was afraid of... Canted front sight base. Hopefully, the barrel is just not indexed properly and it can be turned and re-tightened so that the front sight base is in line with the upper receiver rail.
This. And look, worst case scenario is you remove that whole sight post and add a lo pro and free float.......then everything in the world will be right again
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Old 12-07-2017, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Harry Callahan wrote:
...Shooting low and right...
When you shoulder the rifle and establish your cheek weld, how far is your nose from the base of the sight?

My son had the same problem. We tried all sorts of gyrations with the MBUS sight and the front sight. A friend suggested that eye relief might be a contributing factor so we moved the sight back (towards the shooter) a notch on the top rail and all the problems went away.
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Old 12-07-2017, 02:25 PM
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I was recently consulted by my young neighbor who was trying to get his new Sport II sighted in. He just flat-out could not get a group, and the zero seemed to him to be wandering all over the place. When I shot it, the first three shots at 100 were a couple of inches low and left. A few clicks right on the rear and a slight lowering of the front sight and the next three were dead-on. He tried it again, and his shots went high and right!

While he was shooting, though, I watched him closely and diagnosed the problem -- the shooter. Turned out he had not only never fired an AR before, but had never used a peep sight. He simply didn't have a clue how the sight worked, or how to shoot the AR correctly.

I have a feeling this is the case with the vast majority of folks who report such troubles. It's a shame, because just 10 minutes of coaching had my newbie neighbor shooting like a champ.

I don't know that such a thing applies at all to this situation, but I do think it's a problem with a whole lot of folks who pick up an AR for the first time.

Boiled down to the bare basics -- mount the rifle so that the tip of your nose is just touching the charging handle. Adjust the stock shorter to achieve this position comfortably if you need to. Then, look THROUGH the peep, not at it, and place the front sight where you want the shot to go without any regard whatsoever to where the front sight is in relation to the rear. IGNORE the rear; your eye will automatically center the front sight.

Practice this for a while, and if your rifle's not messed-up somehow (which can be the case, for sure) you'll soon find that it's hard to miss!
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Old 12-07-2017, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
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When you shoulder the rifle and establish your cheek weld, how far is your nose from the base of the sight?

My son had the same problem. We tried all sorts of gyrations with the MBUS sight and the front sight. A friend suggested that eye relief might be a contributing factor so we moved the sight back (towards the shooter) a notch on the top rail and all the problems went away.
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I was recently consulted by my young neighbor who was trying to get his new Sport II sighted in. He just flat-out could not get a group, and the zero seemed to him to be wandering all over the place. When I shot it, the first three shots at 100 were a couple of inches low and left. A few clicks right on the rear and a slight lowering of the front sight and the next three were dead-on. He tried it again, and his shots went high and right!

While he was shooting, though, I watched him closely and diagnosed the problem -- the shooter. Turned out he had not only never fired an AR before, but had never used a peep sight. He simply didn't have a clue how the sight worked, or how to shoot the AR correctly.

I have a feeling this is the case with the vast majority of folks who report such troubles. It's a shame, because just 10 minutes of coaching had my newbie neighbor shooting like a champ.

I don't know that such a thing applies at all to this situation, but I do think it's a problem with a whole lot of folks who pick up an AR for the first time.

Boiled down to the bare basics -- mount the rifle so that the tip of your nose is just touching the charging handle. Adjust the stock shorter to achieve this position comfortably if you need to. Then, look THROUGH the peep, not at it, and place the front sight where you want the shot to go without any regard whatsoever to where the front sight is in relation to the rear. IGNORE the rear; your eye will automatically center the front sight.

Practice this for a while, and if your rifle's not messed-up somehow (which can be the case, for sure) you'll soon find that it's hard to miss!
hdwhit....Pisgah....

I hoped since the first moment I was doing something wrong

The only thing I didn't see was the front sight slighlty to the left before the owner of the gunshop put the rifle on the rest with a level on the rail

The first day I tried it out and after 12 clicks to the left I had the range instructor try it out, he too said it was shooting low and to the right

This monday after more correction to the left(+20 clicks) I asked a gentleman that was shooting a Mauser to fire the first shot at a clean target at 100 meters, here is the shot(he was old school):



so with all that correction I did and if I was doing something wrong, the gentlemen should have gone far to the left


One more thing, the owner of the gunshop said that the barrels are mounted to the upper in Italy by the importer and not directly in USA by S&W.... I think this is the problem
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Old 12-07-2017, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Harry_Callahan View Post
One more thing, the owner of the gunshop said that the barrels are mounted to the upper in Italy by the importer and not directly in USA by S&W.... I think this is the problem
Interesting... I wonder why? I'm sure it is some type of import/export restriction, but wonder the reasoning behind it.
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Old 12-07-2017, 04:37 PM
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Interesting... I wonder why? I'm sure it is some type of import/export restriction, but wonder the reasoning behind it.
Hi cyphertext, I try and ask. Another funny thing is in Italy .223 must be stamped on the barrel. It isn't possible to put .556 NATO for restriction

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Old 12-07-2017, 06:33 PM
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Hi cyphertext, I try and ask. Another funny thing is in Italy .223 must be stamped on the barrel. It isn't possible to put .556 NATO for restriction

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Are you restricted to non-military ammunition in Italy?
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  #32  
Old 12-08-2017, 02:56 AM
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Are you restricted to non-military ammunition in Italy?
Yes, 5.56 NATO is considerd for military here. 9 Luger too is a couple of years ago, but 9 Luger now can be used for long guns...still restricted for handguns(pistols). Only a couple of revolvers can be purchased in 9 Luger here, like the S&W 547 which I have :-) It is a 4" pinned

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Old 12-11-2017, 08:11 AM
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Hopefully, the barrel is just not indexed properly and it can be turned and re-tightened
cyphertext... can you please explain this a little more?

does it have to do something with this pin?
(just a photo found on the web)
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Old 12-11-2017, 09:38 AM
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If the barrel is over torqued, the alignment pin can be bent, or broken off completely. And if the barrel moved from being over torqued, it would make the front sight be off center to the left.
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Old 12-11-2017, 09:44 AM
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If the barrel is over torqued, the alignment pin can be bent, or broken off completely. And if the barrel moved from being over torqued, it would make the front sight be off center to the left.
ok, so the first check that must be done is this

if it isn't completly broken, lets say a little bent, should I insist they change the barrel or could they leave mine and center the barrel?

is there any chance it isn't bent or broken and the can center the barrel? I don't know the tollerence of the pin groove
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Old 12-11-2017, 10:26 AM
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ok, so the first check that must be done is this

if it isn't completly broken, lets say a little bent, should I insist they change the barrel or could they leave mine and center the barrel?

is there any chance it isn't bent or broken and the can center the barrel? I don't know the tollerence of the pin groove
I would talk to your gunsmith if this is the issue... the pin can be replaced, but I would wonder if there was any damage to the receiver itself. Here in the States, I would just ship the whole thing back to S&W to figure out, but that is easy for us...
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Old 12-11-2017, 12:18 PM
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Interesting... I wonder why? I'm sure it is some type of import/export restriction, but wonder the reasoning behind it.
In the first post the OP noted the barrel length at 12.5 inches. This would be a short barreled rifle and subject to massive US paperwork and possible export/import restrictions. By having the importer complete the manufacturing process, they probably avoid all the hassle. (Europeans tend to have to jump through hoops to own firearms, but once they have permission, a lot of laws we have [NFA] don't exist.) You'll also note the described issues with caliber markings, so the barrels might actually be shipped separately.

The barrel alignment pin in your picture should look like that but, per manual, should be centered in the receiver notch during/after torquing the barrel nut. Another possibility is that the front sight tower wasn't properly aligned when installed. In that case, one adjusts the pin within the notch to correct the issue. If not possible, change the barrel. I think in this case, the shop selling the item is being excessively picky. The rifle is sighted in without using an extreme amount of sight adjustment, I'd leave it alone.

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Old 12-11-2017, 01:21 PM
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In the first post the OP noted the barrel length at 12.5 inches. This would be a short barreled rifle and subject to massive US paperwork and possible export/import restrictions.
You are right... I missed that part!
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Old 12-11-2017, 01:32 PM
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From the beginning the 12.5" had me scratching my head.
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Old 12-13-2017, 12:13 AM
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Are you a lefty?
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Old 12-15-2017, 02:59 AM
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Are you a lefty?
No Rastoff,

the shop will let me know asap about the canted front sight
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Old 12-15-2017, 12:50 PM
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Did you ever shoot it from a rest?
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Old 01-17-2018, 06:43 AM
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Did you ever shoot it from a rest?
Yes, all test performed from rest
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Old 01-17-2018, 06:46 AM
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Hello to all!

Just got an update from the Gun Shop! Importer is going to change the whole upper. I must wait till the end of February to see the rifle again.

They didn't specify anything else. Probabily over-torque
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Old 01-17-2018, 09:08 AM
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A bit of a wait but at least they're making it right. Good deal.
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Old 01-17-2018, 09:30 AM
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Let us know how it works after you get it back.
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Old 01-17-2018, 08:13 PM
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Glad the importer is going to fix it, too bad it has to take so long. It's worth the wait, they are fun to shoot.
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Old 03-17-2018, 07:30 AM
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Hello Folks,

Got some good news here :-)

The rifle was returned tuesday and just got back from the range.
I decided to go old school and I put a Carry Handle, took off the magpul buis. Did my mechanical zero and went to the range

In attach you can see the 25/300 meter target with the first 3 shot circled in red. I decided to lower 1 click elevation and the next 3 shot were ok

Then I shot some ammo at 100m. I was high(that is normal) but a little to the left to I gave windage 2 clicks

The other 25/300 target were my first reloads for rifle. I used Vithavuori N130 @20.5 grains. A bit high and bolt doesn't remain open, so I think 20.5 grain isn't enough

Well, after 3 months of wait my MP15 12.5 is shooting straight now :-)

Best Regards to all
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Old 03-17-2018, 08:23 AM
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Good deal. Long wait but glad to see it's functioning to your satisfaction.
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Old 03-17-2018, 08:58 AM
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Thanks for the reply,looks like you are good to go ahead and get your reloads dialed in.
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