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  #51  
Old 01-13-2018, 08:57 AM
C J C J is offline
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Quote:
You aren't a newbie, so that is fine. Zero criticism was meant for any post of any kind on this thread.
Yeah I knew what you meant. I just wanted to make my position clear. I didn't mean to imply any criticism of your post either.
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  #52  
Old 01-13-2018, 11:51 AM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
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It seems a day doesn't go by without reading about a gun going off "Out of Battery." Have the manufacturers quit putting disconnectors in their guns? Or is it a catch-all "I don't know what really happened so it must have gone off out of battery." Or an excuse, "I can't possibly have made a mistake building a Lego-gun or loading ammo in a hurry, so it must have gone off out of battery."
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  #53  
Old 01-13-2018, 12:14 PM
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What ammunition was being used?

Glad you’re OK. I agree with WR Moore. Contact S&W yourself and follow their instructions/requests. They will get things straightened out for you if their rifle was at fault.
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Old 01-13-2018, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Kliminator wrote:
I expect S&W to contact me when they receive the weapon and make some determination.
Do not be surprised if the only communication you receive from S&W is a letter accompanying either your repaired rifle or a new Sport II.

You do need to understand that while you have so far only expressed an interest in getting the gun repaired, in the eyes of S&W's attorneys you are a lawsuit waiting to be filed, so the communications may become very formal - and sparse - from this point on. They will fix or replace your rifle, but that may be about all you ever find out about what they learn about what happened.
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Old 01-13-2018, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M29since14 View Post
What ammunition was being used?

Glad you’re OK. I agree with WR Moore. Contact S&W yourself and follow their instructions/requests. They will get things straightened out for you if their rifle was at fault.

Read post # 44 and it will tell you what ammunition was used.
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  #56  
Old 01-13-2018, 02:54 PM
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There have been several "kabooms" of S&W AR's shown on these forums since I've joined. S&W almost always blames the ammo and offers to sell a new rifle to the owner at cost. Unfortunately, what they consider cost with a Sport is about what you can buy one for online. S&W knows that since no one was injured that this incident will never see a court.

Federal will blame the rifle when and if S&W contacts them..

The OP will never see the original rifle again. Sorry.

I have two S&W AR's that have had the snot shot out of them, and I have total faith that I can continue to do so. Things happen.

Last edited by MichiganScott; 01-13-2018 at 11:28 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #57  
Old 01-13-2018, 04:00 PM
bamashooter bamashooter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HelpingHarvey View Post
OP, I'm so glad that you're okay! And, welcome to the forum.
I sure do hope that you get all of this cleared up. It will be very interesting to see whom is responsible for this; the ammo manufacturer, or S&W.
Did you hire good representation? Good luck!
In all likelihood, at no fault of the OP, the truth will never be known as to what caused the malfunction.
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  #58  
Old 01-13-2018, 05:42 PM
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The last year I had the joy of experiencing two blow up using Federal and CCI ammo. Twice in a S&W victor, once in a vintage Win Mod 61. Each time the extractors were blown somewhere, the shots were very loud and obviously an over charge.

Customer service with CCI and Federal both "claimed out of battery", I knew better, but S&W took good care of me repaired the Victor three times, then another over charged 22 and feeling sorry for S&W just retired it. The extractor for the vintage Win Mod 61 was very costly and hard to find.

These events occurred during the ammo shortage and I can understand quality control problems, but when the customer service agents lied to me I decided I would never again purchase anything from Federal or CCI.




Last edited by Ed Fowler; 01-13-2018 at 05:44 PM.
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  #59  
Old 01-13-2018, 06:29 PM
scooter123 scooter123 is offline
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By desing the BCG on an AR-15, or m4/m16, "shrouds" the firing pin from the hammer until the BCG is nearly fully forward. In theory this insures that the locking lugs on the bolt face will be engaged in the barrel extension but in any manufactured product theory is usually only about 99.8% effective. Basically if the locking surfaces both bolt and barrel extension are mis machined just "wrong" something like this could happen. However the typical result of an ignition before the locking surfaces are engaged usually results in the BCG being jammed into the buffer tube. From the pics shown I'm guessing on a firing pin stuck forward of the breech face that struck the primer as the cartridge was being fed into the chamber. The end result of this is a case head rupture that blows out through the magazine well and ejection port. If that is the case there should be a bullet stuck in the barrel. Because this type of failure will normally occur before bolt is closed and chamber pressures usually don't reach a high enough pressure to actually propel the bullet out of the barrel. I'll also note these types of malfunctions usually don't result in any serious injury, they just scare the bejesus out of the shooter and blow the magazine to bits.

So, what would cause a stuck firing pin. First is a lack of proper cleaning an maintenance. Second is debris becoming lodged in the firing pin channel. Third is plain old piss poor machining of the surfaces involved. Since this was round #16 it's safe to say that improper maintenance is NOT the problem. So, IMO the cause is either poor production equipment maintenance or something as simple as a chipped or broken ream. Both of which would be caused by problems at S&W.

Another possible cause for this type of malfunction is a case that ruptured during extraction. In that case the issue is an ammunition related malfunction, so Federal should be contacted and in the loop with S&W's examination result.

Bottomline is simple. This is most likely a Warranty problem and S&W should be called immediately. Note I did say CALLED, as in by telephone. Because S&W has gained a bit of a reputation for NOT reading their emails in a manner that most of us would consider timely. However in their defense it's probably because 90% or more of their email is SPAM and cleaning that stuff out of your email every single day rather quickly becomes a mind numbingly tedious exercise.
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  #60  
Old 01-13-2018, 06:58 PM
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I documented everything and left the gun with the dealer.
Did the dealer refund your money?
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  #61  
Old 01-13-2018, 09:09 PM
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OP stated "he wiped it down". That doesn't satisfy the pre first firing cleaning & lubrication requirements I have.

To answer another post: OOB is a label that generally gets attached to these events. Exact root cause is frequently undetermined/not released. If someone is really, truly interested, the firearm and remaining ammo would need to go to someone like HP White along with a substantial check. Based upon experience, that check would be upward of $1,000.

As I noted in my earlier post, this type of event isn't exactly in the same class as hens teeth. It's one reason GI ammo uses a primer with a slightly harder cup.

Last edited by WR Moore; 01-13-2018 at 09:14 PM.
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  #62  
Old 01-14-2018, 09:52 AM
Dad_Roman Dad_Roman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WR Moore View Post
OP stated "he wiped it down". That doesn't satisfy the pre first firing cleaning & lubrication requirements I have.
I would like to know your thoughts on this.

I have had a BCG recently that failed to cycle properly (fired, cycled, but would not pick up a fresh round) A new one solved this problem. (Bear Creek Brand)

While I field strip, clean and lube all new stuff, on BCG's I like to soak them dripping wet, then wipe down the excess.
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  #63  
Old 01-14-2018, 10:32 AM
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As times change, so do people. I'd say more folks than not today, not necessarily the OP, buy a firearm and break their neck getting to a range. It's a buy now, use now society. Regardless of what the item might be. No cleaning, no inspection (in most cases they wouldn't know what they're looking at anyway), just blast away then freak when an issue arises. Blame the "***" firearm, etc. Insane but true. Don't even need to witness these shortcomings. Just read some of the questions in assorted firearms and automotive forums. One positive however. When questioned in forums regarding first cleaning, lubing, etc a firearm prior to initial firing, the majority of those who don't do a preliminary cleaning will admit to that.
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  #64  
Old 01-14-2018, 09:18 PM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Roman View Post
I would like to know your thoughts on this.

I have had a BCG recently that failed to cycle properly (fired, cycled, but would not pick up a fresh round) A new one solved this problem. (Bear Creek Brand)

While I field strip, clean and lube all new stuff, on BCG's I like to soak them dripping wet, then wipe down the excess.
There are rails on the BC at roughly 2, 5, 7 and 11 o'clock that need lube, they are what bears on the upper receiver. The sides of the gas block could use bit of lube also. The rest of the carrier only needs enough lube/protection to prevent rust

The bolt and it's recess in the carrier and the cam slot need a light film. Frankly, I prefer a dry film lube (Dri-Slide), but I've used others. I avoid petroleum lubes in the bolt recess of the carrier to reduce carbon formation.

This lube system has worked well for me in a variety of climates and temperatures. Dunking your BCG is neither necessary nor desirable-special circumstances excepted.
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  #65  
Old 01-14-2018, 09:50 PM
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Thanks for that input. That gives me a lot to consider.
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  #66  
Old 01-15-2018, 01:24 AM
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Quote:
While I field strip, clean and lube all new stuff, on BCG's I like to soak them dripping wet, then wipe down the excess.
You can do more harm than good with this procedure. Burned powder and other particulates will accumulate in excess lube possibly causing a malfunction later that you wouldn't have had. I've seen guns that people spray with WD-40 after every mag that have so much gunk in them you can't force the bolt to operate. That's an extreme situation but it shows the tendency of wet lubes to attract and hold matter that can often become a problem. Lubes with teflon build up on their own as well. The teflon will build up.

I learned about this the hard way on a bicycle actually. I sprayed the gears with a teflon based lube before I rode the bike and eventually the chain would skip gears and come off completely because there was so much buildup between the gears. I don't know why I didn't notice it but I didn't. At any rate that was a much worse situation than a firearm could ever tolerate. I actually started to buy an SKS once that was so gummed up the bolt could not work without considerable force being applied to it and the problem was all gunk buildup.

Dry lube is much better if you can get by with using it. I barely coat action components to keep them from rusting unless I'm going to store the gun a very long time without firing it. I may have left some to rust rather than build up. Rust can be fairly easy to clean up. Easier than fired powder in lube gunk.
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Old 01-15-2018, 01:34 AM
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How/where to lube an AR-15.


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Old 01-15-2018, 08:17 AM
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Run 'em wet boyz!
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Old 01-15-2018, 10:43 AM
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I have investigated at least five incidents of what appeared to be OOB firings involving both M16A2s and M4s using GI ammo and was never able to pin down an exact cause. In one case I was on the scene just a few minutes after the incident (at Robins AFB GA in 2007) and was able to capture all the evidence before someone else screwed it up. It involved a female airman and she was really shook up. Unfortunately, the shooter's memories of exactly what happened were not good due to emotional trauma. At least there were no shooter physical injuries associated with any of those incidents. I remember that in two situations, the cam pin was fractured at the firing pin hole (presumably as a result of the blowup). None resulted in what I'd consider catastrophic damage to the upper receiver or barrel. It's been too long ago for me to remember much specific detail. I used to have pictures of the damaged guns and components, and may still have those stored on a hard drive somewhere. I'm not going to look for them.

For sure, an AR action will NOT fail under excessive pressure if it has complete lockup of the bolt head into the barrel extension. Colt has demonstrated that using cartridges having extreme overloads of fast powder, producing peak chamber pressures of well over 100,000 psi. And to a lesser extent, so have I by once performing a series of experiments involving in-bore collisions using bullets stuck in the barrel at different distances from the chamber. All that ever happened was barrel bulging, never action failure or barrel splitting. Therefore, an AR blowup must be the result of an OOB firing condition. The unanswered question is how did that happen? And there may be multiple reasons.

Last edited by DWalt; 01-15-2018 at 01:21 PM.
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Old 01-15-2018, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rule3 View Post
As mentioned, without pictures and documentation of the AMMO, this is all hearsay and even then SPECULATION!
Hearsay is defined as "an out of court statement by another presented to prove the truth of the matter asserted." The statement may very well be as true as the day is long, but unless the maker can be presented for cross examination it will not be allowed. Speculation on the other hand is defined as a WAG (wild-assed guess). Most of this appears to be WAG as opposed to hearsay in the truest sense. When the out of court statement is from one who has actual knowlege of the matter asserted it is hearsay. If the out of court statement is made by someone after reading internet accounts, it is double hearsay at best but more likely a WAG-or in the words of the poster Speculation
Sorry....one of my pet peeves is the misuse of hearsay.
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Old 01-15-2018, 11:40 AM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
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"Wet" is not dripping-at least when I was introduced to the AR system. And, the flour like sand of Iraq just might justify that, don't know, wasn't there. "Dripping" generally ends up depositing significant lube in the receiver extension, where it doesn't belong and can compromise normal operation.

Caj, ever hear of the SWAG? Scientific WAG-source has specific knowledge that may/may not apply to the situation.

With that in mind, in a post above, the broken cam pins might well have happened during unlocking of the previous round, trapping the firing pin in a forward position and enabling a slam fire. In the half dozen or so events I've seen, the cam pin was intact. Again, a situation where someone would need to attempt to duplicate the event.

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Old 01-15-2018, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAJUNLAWYER View Post
Hearsay is defined as "an out of court statement by another presented to prove the truth of the matter asserted." The statement may very well be as true as the day is long, but unless the maker can be presented for cross examination it will not be allowed. Speculation on the other hand is defined as a WAG (wild-assed guess). Most of this appears to be WAG as opposed to hearsay in the truest sense. When the out of court statement is from one who has actual knowlege of the matter asserted it is hearsay. If the out of court statement is made by someone after reading internet accounts, it is double hearsay at best but more likely a WAG-or in the words of the poster Speculation
Sorry....one of my pet peeves is the misuse of hearsay.
noun
1.
unverified, unofficial information gained or acquired from another and not part of one's direct knowledge:
I pay no attention to hearsay.
2.
an item of idle or unverified information or gossip; rumor:
a malicious hearsay.
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Old 01-15-2018, 01:26 PM
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I'll be interested to see what the final conclusion is on this mishap, but one thing is for sure. You can't say enough about the proper use of eye and ear protection and maybe shooting gloves too. Good luck and keep us posted.
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Old 01-18-2018, 08:48 PM
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Makes it so much more important to never use the magazine or mag well
as a handhold...as some schmucks have a tendancy to do "Hollywood-Style".

Also why folks have worked so hard to get the Cup & Saucer hold out of pistol
shooters, as the same thing happens when a semi-auto has an event...
if your hand is underneath the mag well, it's gonna BURN and likely also
get a nice dose of shrapnel.

Coming over from revolvers, it was a hard habit to break...but seeing one
poor bugger get burned helps one change a habit mighty quick
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Old 01-18-2018, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Shrek View Post
Makes it so much more important to never use the magazine or mag well
as a handhold...as some schmucks have a tendancy to do "Hollywood-Style".


Also why folks have worked so hard to get the Cup & Saucer hold out of pistol
shooters, as the same thing happens when a semi-auto has an event...
if your hand is underneath the mag well, it's gonna BURN and likely also
get a nice dose of shrapnel.

Coming over from revolvers, it was a hard habit to break...but seeing one
poor bugger get burned helps one change a habit mighty quick
Very common within the ranks when I deployed at times. I'd just shake my head. No idea how that ignorance started but it seems to have transitioned over to the civilian "tacticool" world.
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Old 01-19-2018, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murphydog View Post
Welcome...quite the introduction and glad you are OK. I would document everything to the extent possible (photos, parts), save the ammunition and contact factory customer service tomorrow. If you were using factory ammunition, chances are good they will replace it under warranty.

I am not super familiar with the workings of the AR, but I don't think the trigger will drop the hammer unless the gun is fully in battery, so I suspect an overpressure load. Others here may have equally possible theories.

Never had one fire out of battery myself but was told years ago that they would do that if the disconector and hammer were not timed to operate correctly . Guy that told me that was a Marine Armorer and had built Sniper rifles and serviced M 16's for the Marine Corps since they started using them . He was specifically referring to the full auto version but did say it could happen in semi as well but was not as likely . He showed me a full auto that had fired out of battery destroying the upper and damaging the lower as well .

Eddie
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Old 01-19-2018, 01:54 PM
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You guys need to understand what needs to happen for the gun to fire before you say something fired out of battery.

The BCG will not allow the hammer to contact the firing pin if it's not all the way forward. So, if the BCG isn't fully forward, an OOB is impossible.

If the BCG is fully forward, but the bolt is not locked, the gun could fire and blow the BCG and bolt back which could cause a result as though it were fired OOB. However, for this to happen the bolt cam must be left out upon assembly. If the bolt cam is left out, the gun will fire once and the bolt will fall out the front of the BCG. So, likely not this.

An OOB event can happen if a foreign object gets on the bolt face or if the firing pin is stuck forward. Then the primer can be struck hard enough to fire the round before it's fully seated in the chamber.
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Old 01-19-2018, 03:00 PM
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Anecdote Alert:
I am very suspicious of any claim of "fired out of battery" but I was once present for a strange combination that I do not think to be a coincidence.

I was waiting at the range for the XC match to wrap up and standing by for my LR shoot. There was a cease fire and a considerable gathering at the firing line, then another. I went over to check it out.
Not one, but two ARs had kaBoomed with damage to the rifles.
Rifles had been assembled from commodity parts in the same shop.
Ammunition was from one source.
Bad ammo? Faulty rifles? Combination of marginal ammo and shaky rifle? I never heard any followup.
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Old 01-19-2018, 03:04 PM
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No idea how that ignorance started
As far as handguns go and the cup and saucer grip there's a real good reason it got started. It's the fastest way to teach someone to be accurate. It may not be a good idea but as long as I've been shooting this is the first time I saw it mentioned as a safety issue. The reasons I've seen for changing to a new grip are about control of the handgun. Many of us learned that cup and saucer style with a revolver where there was no danger of a mag exploding. I've never seen any reference to a safety problem with it though. I'm not the brightest bulb in the box though. I just would have noticed if it had been mentioned by anyone ever. I've surfed a lot of gun boards and read many articles on shooting stances and grips and I've only heard that it is a safety issue in this thread. So either I'm missing something or it isn't a common thing being taught. I know modern shooters favor different styles but again it was always sold as a more accurate way to shoot and not a safety issue at least as far as I've seen.
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Old 01-19-2018, 03:42 PM
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Welcome to the Forum. You may get an award for most dramatic 1st post and longest running thread from that post! I am glad you are not hurt.
As this is a forum you can see that everyone has an opinion. Some are more helpful than others. What none of us know is what really happened. Only you know the circumstances that occured and even you don't know the root cause the malfunction. You will/should get a new gun from S&W. Hopefully, you will get an explanation. I was also in the Army and have fired 1000's of rounds of 5.56 ammo from lots of different M16s and also AR 15s in civilian life. I have never seen this happen. It would scare me and make me angry if it happened to me as well. I hope you let us know the outcome from S&W and or Ammo manufacturer (Federal) if they give you a plausible explanation. If they don't, I hope you come back to the forum anyway, as this is a pretty good bunch of people to share info and experiences with. Again welcome.
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Old 01-19-2018, 03:50 PM
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It is not a safety issue with revolvers, I do like that you question this discussion.

I saw an overload blow the grips off of a S&W 39 back in the early 70's, all that it did was blow the mag out and the grips. A quick cleaning and the pistol was back on the firing line.

Today with the mother of plastic pistols and the folks at some of the customer service of some ammo manufactures it has become a problem where in the ammo makers can blame the firearms makers for problems.
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Old 01-19-2018, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C J View Post
As far as handguns go and the cup and saucer grip there's a real good reason it got started. It's the fastest way to teach someone to be accurate. It may not be a good idea but as long as I've been shooting this is the first time I saw it mentioned as a safety issue. The reasons I've seen for changing to a new grip are about control of the handgun. Many of us learned that cup and saucer style with a revolver where there was no danger of a mag exploding. I've never seen any reference to a safety problem with it though. I'm not the brightest bulb in the box though. I just would have noticed if it had been mentioned by anyone ever. I've surfed a lot of gun boards and read many articles on shooting stances and grips and I've only heard that it is a safety issue in this thread. So either I'm missing something or it isn't a common thing being taught. I know modern shooters favor different styles but again it was always sold as a more accurate way to shoot and not a safety issue at least as far as I've seen.
Very familiar with "cup and saucer" which has nothing to do with ARs. I have no idea how long you've been shooting and Don't really know much about this topic covered within the internet, but I was taught from 1968 forward with the M16, do not hold the weapon by the magazine or up against the magazine if you value your hand. I saw only a couple in the Army which required immediate medical attention. It can also cause a malfunction if you have a sloppy fit.

Primarily taught to folks for CQB-type stuff. They typically call it choking / choking up (your grip) not for accuracy but for maneuverability of the weapon. I've never known it to be an "accurizer" though I wouldn't doubt it's instructed that way.

Quite possibly I'm in the minority on how I don't hold my weapon but in my minority status I'll keep my hands in good health.
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Old 01-19-2018, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Shrek View Post
Makes it so much more important to never use the magazine or mag well
as a handhold...as some schmucks have a tendancy to do "Hollywood-Style".

Also why folks have worked so hard to get the Cup & Saucer hold out of pistol
shooters, as the same thing happens when a semi-auto has an event...
if your hand is underneath the mag well, it's gonna BURN and likely also
get a nice dose of shrapnel.

Coming over from revolvers, it was a hard habit to break...but seeing one
poor bugger get burned helps one change a habit mighty quick
I've been shooting DA revolvers double action since the early 1970's and have never read or heard any professional recommend shooting a handgun with a cup and saucer hold. Such a hold does nothing to increase the isometric tension needed to shoot a handgun accurately.

The cup and saucer hold is a sure sign of a newbie, just like holding an AR by its magazine or mag well.
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Old 01-19-2018, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Very familiar with "cup and saucer" which has nothing to do with ARs.
I understand that. Someone mentioned that holding your hand under the mag of a pistol was the reason the cup and saucer grip was abandoned by shooters. My comment had nothing to do with AR's. I know not to hang onto an AR mag while firing. I have forward grips on both of my AR's so I have something to grip besides the mag or whatever. I had just never heard that it was a problem to hold a handgun underneath the mag. I was wondering if it was something that had caused a lot of problems or even a few problems I guess because I still shoot the way I learned to shoot in the early 60's. I use the cup and saucer grip. I always figured I had something going and I didn't want to change it but I'm rethinking that now.

Quote:
The cup and saucer hold is a sure sign of a newbie, just like holding an AR by its magazine or mag well.
When I learned to shoot everyone used that method. But I'm old and to be honest I shoot a handgun better than anyone I ever met personally. It's just something I do well. Lots of people do things well. I have been known to draw a large crowd watching me shoot. I also get called to do shooting demonstrations. Again I learned with a revolver so the safety problem with the cup and saucer didn't apply. But I can not only shoot well I can teach others to shoot well. The cup and saucer is a natural way to control a handgun. I don't mean to build myself up as something special. I'm not. I just know how to hit what I'm aiming at. I'm not a super shooter like Bob Munden was or anything but I can hold my own.

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Old 01-19-2018, 07:45 PM
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Oh, ok. Sorry about that.
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Old 01-19-2018, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
OH, 'out of battery discharge'. I thought I was reading about a medical condition.
AKA "shootus interruptus".
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Old 01-19-2018, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
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The cup and saucer hold is a sure sign of a newbie, just like holding an AR by its magazine or mag well.
Interesting comment. When I was at combat arms training, the instructor told us to hold either the forearm or magazine well (not the magazine itself) whichever we felt more comfortable with.

I have seen lots of tacticool guys snicker at a new shooter because he was holding the mag well. I've also watched that same new shooter out shoot those who were trying to say he was doing it wrong.

Clearly these guys don't know what they're doing:
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Old 01-19-2018, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
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Interesting comment. When I was at combat arms training, the instructor told us to hold either the forearm or magazine well (not the magazine itself) whichever we felt more comfortable with.

I have seen lots of tacticool guys snicker at a new shooter because he was holding the mag well. I've also watched that same new shooter out shoot those who were trying to say he was doing it wrong.

Clearly these guys don't know what they're doing:
Not tacticool, but I used the delta ring hold when I shot high power offhand, just like the two in the background are doing. The one in the foreground is using the magazine. Since I don't know him, I'll not comment on his newness, but the Gehmann glove he is wearing suggests that he knows enough to protect the rifle from the shooter.
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Old 01-21-2018, 11:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C J View Post
As far as handguns go and the cup and saucer grip there's a real good reason it got started. It's the fastest way to teach someone to be accurate. It may not be a good idea but as long as I've been shooting this is the first time I saw it mentioned as a safety issue. The reasons I've seen for changing to a new grip are about control of the handgun. Many of us learned that cup and saucer style with a revolver where there was no danger of a mag exploding. I've never seen any reference to a safety problem with it though. I'm not the brightest bulb in the box though. I just would have noticed if it had been mentioned by anyone ever. I've surfed a lot of gun boards and read many articles on shooting stances and grips and I've only heard that it is a safety issue in this thread. So either I'm missing something or it isn't a common thing being taught. I know modern shooters favor different styles but again it was always sold as a more accurate way to shoot and not a safety issue at least as far as I've seen.
Probably missed it...when I switched from a Revolver to a Semi-Auto back around
1990, the guys at the Gulf Breeze Pistol Parlor gave me the instruction with purchase.
When I went to hold it like a revolver with the old Cup & Saucer grip,
the guy corrected me and told me that if something went wrong, like a squib
followed by another shot, it'd blow the mag downwards and anything under
the mag would get fried & possibly shrapnelled...I took the hint

Over the years it's been shown more than once that the instruction was absolutely correct.
And it's an outdated hold at best at this point, much better revolver holds,
and FAR better semi-auto holds are now known.
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Old 01-21-2018, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by MichiganScott View Post
I've been shooting DA revolvers double action since the early 1970's and have never read or heard any professional recommend shooting a handgun with a cup and saucer hold. Such a hold does nothing to increase the isometric tension needed to shoot a handgun accurately.

The cup and saucer hold is a sure sign of a newbie, just like holding an AR by its magazine or mag well.
The old WW2 vet who taught me revolvers taught me that hold. Main reason?
Keeps yer mitt out of the way of the cylinder gap so you don't get burned.
Strangely enough, lotta rookie cops & whatnot used to get cooked on occasion,
and it was probably the quickest thing they could teach to make sure none of the other rookies
got burnt too.

There were MILLIONS of civilian & military shooters that got taught the Cup & Saucer hold.
As times progressed, it was discovered there were better holds that even a rookie
could get right

And a lot of us stuck with what we knew until we were taught better methods...
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Old 01-22-2018, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
And it's an outdated hold at best at this point, much better revolver holds,
and FAR better semi-auto holds are now known.
Thank goodness I've been lucky enough to avoid the problem over the years. I really am not able to shoot much now anyway and learning a new grip would require a lot of work I'm not likely to be able to do. But I won't be doing much shooting for pleasure. I'll take my chances in a self defense role but I already know how to shoot and when I do shoot I still hit what I aim at. Should say something about old dog and new tricks here but I definitely see the reason for avoiding putting your hand under a loaded mag. If I was 10 years younger I'd be switching for sure. I actually tried switching to new grips about 10 years ago because people claimed they were better for accuracy. They probably are but for me it was about unlearning 50 years of experience. I won't be teaching that method to anyone else. That's for sure. For me it was about going from being one of the best shots around to a guy learning something new and not doing so well at it. I did try several of the new grips and I just couldn't shoot the same. I would have changed had I knew about the safety issue though. It's stupid not to.

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Old 01-22-2018, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C J View Post
Thank goodness I've been lucky enough to avoid the problem over the years. I really am not able to shoot much now anyway and learning a new grip would require a lot of work I'm not likely to be able to do. But I won't be doing much shooting for pleasure. I'll take my chances in a self defense role but I already know how to shoot and when I do shoot I still hit what I aim at. Should say something about old dog and new tricks here but I definitely see the reason for avoiding putting your hand under a loaded mag. If I was 10 years younger I'd be switching for sure. I actually tried switching to new grips about 10 years ago because people claimed they were better for accuracy. They probably are but for me it was about unlearning 50 years of experience. I won't be teaching that method to anyone else. That's for sure. For me it was about going from being one of the best shots around to a guy learning something new and not doing so well at it. I did try several of the new grips and I just couldn't shoot the same. I would have changed had I knew about the safety issue though. It's stupid not to.
I'm 72 and don't have any problem switching to better tactics, because I tell myself that I won't let this beat me. I shoot IDPA/USPSA and I'm constantly evolving to become better. You can do it, if you try.
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Old 01-22-2018, 11:35 AM
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I'm constantly evolving to become better. You can do it, if you try.
I don't doubt I could do it if not for the fact that I basically can't walk at this point. I may recover some and if I'm better in the spring I will have a chance to do some shooting since I'm back at my real home now. But I haven't been able to stand for more than a few seconds since Christmas.
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Old 01-22-2018, 01:14 PM
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Since this thread has been hijacked, when I got my M&P9 I first tried shooting the pistol like I shoot a DA revolver; off hand wrapped around the grip and both thumbs locked down behind the trigger on the frame at the top front of the grip. This hold always controlled the revolver well in double action. My shots went low left on target with the M&P.

I eventually ended up on the Internet watching Jerry Miculek videos. Jerry recommends wrapping the off hand around the grip with your index trigger on the front of the trigger guard with your thumb pointing forward on the frame with the thumb of your strong hand also on the frame pointing forward. Like magic, my groups became centered on target.

To CJ; after my last surgery I was restricted to the couch watching TV for six months. As TV, even cable, really sux during the day, I started dry firing my M&P with the grip Jerry recommended. By the time I got back to the range the new hold had become second nature. Although now I am legally handicapped and can't stand for any length of time, I shoot from a sitting position at my club. I consider myself an old dog that was trained to do new tricks.
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Old 01-22-2018, 04:21 PM
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Jerry's a great man.
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Old 01-22-2018, 04:39 PM
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PictureTrail: Online Photo Sharing, Social Network, Image Hosting, Online Photo Albums

For those of you who are getting older and your back will not support long periods of stand up shooting or have other physical problems, this was my solution to concentrating on my my shooting without being distracted from pain in my body. Worked like a charm, shot over 30,000 rounds from this chair.

You will notice that if an overcharge should happen the mag will just hit the chair. The grips will just sting your hand.

Next to a mechanical rest, this is the most stable position we can shoot from. The chair cost me $5.00 at an auction.

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Old 01-24-2018, 04:36 PM
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It has been around 2 weeks. Has there been a resolution by the shop or Smith & Wesson?
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Old 01-24-2018, 05:06 PM
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It's been there maybe a week and it's probably neither the first priority nor something that's not going to involve detailed analysis.
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Old 01-25-2018, 03:16 PM
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First post was on 1/11, two weeks ago. Just wondering what is up. I myself would have at least been on the phone to S&W the first business day after the incident. Nothing wrong with asking.
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Old 01-25-2018, 04:50 PM
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So is this a drive-by or what?

The OP posted 3 times over 2 days (the ONLY 3 posts he has ever made BTW) and then nothing for nearly two weeks and never any info on either progress OR resolution.

Meanwhile there have been over 100 other posts to the thread and it is still going...
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