Is there any real information about the Advisory from Wolf Ammo and the M&P-15? Are they just being overly cautious or is there really a problem? Seems like we would have heard something by now.

Content edited for incorrect content and information. If really curious as to what might be, see WVSig’s reply to me.

The only thing that seems clear is that Wolf feels there is an out-of-battery firing problem with the M&P15 -- and judging from the increasing reports of such that I have seen I would say they might be right. An AR should not fire out of battery, period, regardless of the brand of ammo being used.

BTW, Wolf Gold is brass-cased ammo...

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Pisgah

Wolf Gold is brass cased and does not have a bi-metal projectile.

Wolf issued a warning about the M&P15 and out of battery discharges. Might want to look it up before posting. The number of reports of possible out of battery firings from M&P15s is higher than any other brand on on the market. IMHO

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And I stand corrected. I assumed and was wrong. Thank you for the correction.

EDIT: One of the nice things about this forum in general is that it self regulates and keeps the info straight.


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I just contacted S&W via chat and the rep told me he could not comment on the Wolf Advisory. He said there is no official statement regarding it.

I just wanted to add that despite persistent internet comments about steel case and AKs or rifles designed for steel cases....The AK was NEVER designed for any specific cases they just made it to function in the harshest conditions assuming the lowest common denominator user. This meant that you just make parts out of quality materials.

Also, many steel cases are actually softer than brass

Wolf is not a Russian company it's a California import company. They have ammo manufacturers make ammo for them. At one point Wolf was simply rebranded Tula. Wolf Gold was made by PPU at one point and now made in the Philippines

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Wolf Gold is not steel. It's brass cased ammo.

Um, what? Can you back that up or are you just speculating?

Maybe you meant to say that steel doesn't cause more wear than brass?

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No. When it comes to actually testing the hardness a lot of brass is stronger/harder than the steel case.

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Without some kind of source for that info, I'm finding that hard to believe. Every resource I can find says steel is harder than brass. Brass is more elastic and therefore, more desirable for cartridge casings, but it's not harder than steel.

Again, please post the info backing this up. We all want to learn.

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4:57 on the video is the testing...

Debunking the Myth: Steel is NOT harder than Brass *(On your operating parts) - The Firearm BlogThe Firearm Blog

Been looking for that

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Was trying to find this video

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It can be.... While I don't know the exact alloys we'll start here with these 2. Brass can be heat treated through a pretty wide range which is why we can have a differing hardness spectrum across the entire case from a dead soft mouth to a hard case head.

C2600 cartridge brass vickers hardness of about 90-160. We're skipping the hardened brass.
http://www.fcht.com.tw/english/AlloyGuideEng.pdf

1018 mild steel vickers hardness of 131
AISI 1018 Steel, cold drawn


Also I thought we went down this rabbit hole a couple months ago regarding wolf gold, M&P15s, and "OOB" firings

Here you go OP

Wolf Ammo Advisory for M&P rifles

This thread really went off the tracks. It has nothing to do with steel ammo, however, if Wolf is correct and the rifle has an OOB problem would changing out the bolt group for a higher quality assembly eliminate the issue?

What "higher quality assembly" would you change it to? Do you know who builds the BCG used by Smith today? Back when I bought my Sport I, I was told the BCG was made by Microbest. Unless something has changed, the quality of the BCG shouldn't be an issue.

But is it Microbest?

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Who is Microbest?

Mine is, can't speak for what is in them today. And that is the problem with Wolf's advisory... it is too broad. Is it S&W across the board, or is it with a particular model, or within a range of serial numbers?

And what if there is damage due to an overcharge, but it does damage the chamber and barrel because it was in battery? Seems like there needs to be more info...

They produce various machined parts... they've been a supplier of BCGs for government contracts.

How can you identify a Microbest BCG? Is it marked in some way?

I don't believe they are marked in any way, as they build bolts for many OEMs... The OEM then would mark them, such as the C that Colt puts on the bolts in their rifles.

I was told by a vendor that S&W used Microbest BCGs at the time, and S&W technical support confirmed it to be true.

I question the validity of that video because he was testing polymer coated casings. But hey, you guys are the experts, I'll defer to you. Steel casings are softer than brass.

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You asked for a source and that is what my Google-Fu returned. Can't speak to the validity, as I am not a metallurgist and don't operate the test device he uses. Some of the comments did state that his samples were too thin to be used with that type of tester, and he replied "This was not meant to be a "certified" hardness test, but just a relative comparison. That is why we also tested the base of the casing to see if the readings correlate to the case walls, which they did to a certain extent." So you may be on to something Rastoff...

I have a Sport 1 and have fired a few hundred rounds of Wolf Gold through it with good results so far.

Is some of this internet hysteria , should an old codger like me be concerned ?

If it's a real concern what steps can / should be taken and among you Sport 1 shooters using Wolf Gold what are your intentions going forward ?

I have 2 of the Sport 1 models and have no concerns with the Wolf Gold. I don't have any of the Wolf, but if I did I would shoot it. Wolf posted the warning last summer with no follow up on models affected. S&W has not made any written statements concerning this, a little strange but who really knows what's going on without details.

I shoot it in my Colt all day long. Last rifle class I shoot almost a case. Excellent range ammo!

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My thoughts exactly. They should have provided more info. It makes me shy away from Wolf although it probably isn't a great problem. We would have heard more if it was IMO.

They did indeed post the models affected; S&W M&P-15 rifles. The way I read it, and there is no other way to read it, this is ALL M&P 15 rifles regardless of configuration. If you think about it, this makes sense because all the uppers are the same.

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We don't really know that for sure... With the differences in pricing between the Sport and other models, I would assume that there are some differences between the models. And since the BCG isn't marked where we could identify one from the other, how do we know if the M&P 15 uses the same bolt as the Sport II?

For example, compare the Sport II ORC (10159) to the M&P 15 ORC (811003). There is a $350 difference in MSRP between the two. That's a pretty big difference for Armornite vs. chrome lining. We know that the Sport does not have the same fire control group as the 811xxx models. So perhaps the BCG is different as well?

This is why I say the advisory is too broad... unless S&W will confirm that the BCG are the same across the line.

I have shot plenty of Wolf Gold through my Sport 2, ORC, with the factory trigger assembly and the Blackhawk Blaze AR trigger assembly and never had a problem with either. I find the Wolf Gold, to hold tighter groups than most more expensive ammo.

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I'll only add that I've not experienced any issues with Wolf Gold ammo in my M&P15 TS, nor, last I heard, have any issues been reported here by others using that same model.

I intend to keep using it as I have another case or more on hand.

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I concur.

One would think that if there were these " numerous " incidents with WG in a Sport 15 those people that had them would be speaking out & you'd see pics or video in this day & age .
I'm not saying they haven't / can't happen but there does not seem to be much in the way of documented instances of them.
When you consider the number of Sport 15's that are out there, the number of rounds of WG that have been spent through them and yet so little proof as to what is really going on it is a bit puzzling . I'll probably continue to use WG in my Sport 15 until S&W tells me not to.

About a year-and-a-half-ago, I gathered several ammos and fired five-shot groups from a benchrest using a couple of ARs that shot accurately at 100 yards with good handloads. The cheaper factory ammo, including Wolf Gold, all shot similarly; wouldn't call any of them real accurate, though all were reliable in feeding and functioning.

Besides Wolf Gold, I tried Win. 5.56 55 gr. FMJ, AE .223 55 gr.FMJ, AE 62 gr. FMJ, ZQ1.5.56 62 gr. FMJ, Aguila 5.56 62 gr. FMJBT, PMC X-TAC 5.56 FMJBT, and PMC .223 55 gr. FMJBT.

If Wolf Gold is really a problem for whatever reasons, you won't have to try too hard to find something else that's reliable and provides comparable accuracy.

An unnamed source (you like that?) on another forum, claimed to have talked directly with Wolf on this question. The answer he was given was that Wolf normally gets a couple of complaints about kabooms each year and last year had seven concerning S&W AR's alone. This only makes good sense when you consider S&W sells more AR's than any other company.

Wolf didn't limit it to just the Sport. It includes the entire line of M&P-15 rifles.

While I respect you knowledge of the M&P rifles I have to disagree for now on this is the only way to read it. There is not enough information to read. I think we can all agree there are differences in the various uppers; chrome barrels, or melonite or nitrate. Is in this instance a BCG problem? are the 7 failures the same BCG made by one company, full auto, semi-auto, replaced? We just don't know. Honestly I don't think we will be told. As I see it the onus is on Wolf to explain their statement. Right now it is simply "He said, She said".

They don't even eliminate the 15-22 IMO. That rifle has a history of OOB firing. Their warning was far too vague. If it truly was just the AR-15 models they should have spelled out whether it was a particular model that was worse. The way they did things looks like a vendetta of some kind. I believe they had their reasons but they should be more up front about what they are. We have reports of people talking to them that mention 7 OOB ignitions in one year but they seem to have said they get a couple of such problems with every model of rifle if I read the comment right concerning the 7 OOB problems.

I just feel they have more of a responsiblity to the public than they have shown. What about since the warning? What about the ratio of rifle vs. problems? There are an awful lot of M&P-15's out there. If they sold way more rifles than other companies it stands to reason they would have more failures. The failure rate could be the same for all we know. It's just that no one has given us that info. I really think they should if they want to issue ominous warnings like they did. Going off half cocked may not just be a problem with firearms here (yeah I know it doesn't fit exactly but close enough).

I don't see what the pricing has to do with it. Wolf Ammunition has stated not to use their ammo with ANY M&P 15.

I don't see any other way to read it. Here is the notice:

No, they didn't say which models had the failures, but they state quite plainly that we shouldn't use any model with Wold Ammo.

I would not concern myself though. I'm sure there are mitigating circumstances that we are not privy to. It's very difficult to fire an AR out of battery.

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My point is that we don't know that all S&W uppers are created equally, with the same parts. Because S&W has different products at different price points, one would assume that there has to be a difference between them...

I do agree with you that it isn't much of a concern though. If the report of 7 rifles failing last year over the average of 2 or 3 from years prior is true, it is statistically insignificant when you take into the account of the number of M&P 15 rifles on the market and the number of rounds of Wolf Gold fired.

I would like to contact Wolf by email and see if they have more information on this Advisory instead of the blanket statement on their website. We have heard there were 7 OOB's, but the website doesn't state that. That number came from someone who called Wolf.
Maybe Wolf is right, show us what you found, that is all.

Originally Posted by Rastoff
I would not concern myself though. I'm sure there are mitigating circumstances that we are not privy to. It's very difficult to fire an AR out of battery.

I would agree with your statement above.

I cannot find an email for Wolf after using my Google Fu. Anyone finds one, please post it. A phone call is not my time, I would like to see additional information online.
Rich

Many companies don't post email addresses. They feel that of you're not willing to make the effort to call or write, then you're not really interested in the info. Here's their contact info:

Wolf Performance Ammunition
P.O. Box 757
Placentia, CA 92871
(888)757-9653

I could drive down there and talk to them in person, but, as you say, it's not worth my time.

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Thanks,
I have the address, maybe it is worth a letter. I'm home today and have a little time so I'll take the suggestion and write it. Nothing to loose. I was thinking of writing one earlier, now I have the motivation.

Just put in the mailbox. Mail has not yet been picked up today, so it will go out today. If I receive an answer I will post it.

Wolf Performance Ammunition
P.O. Box 757
Placentia, CA 92871


From: Richard T. Quigley
*************
*************

January 30, 2018

Re: Wolf Gold Ammunition Warning Concerning the Smith & Wesson M&P Series Rifles

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing to you in regards to your Advisory Warning on your website concerning the use of Wolf Gold ammunition in any Smith & Wesson Rifle.

“*** Advisory Warning - June 8, 2017 ***
WOLF Performance Ammunition has received notifications relating to Smith & Wesson M&P-15 rifles that are discharging out of battery which is evidenced by a lack of damage to the chamber and barrel extension. This shows that the rifle’s bolt did not lock into the barrel, yet the hammer was still able to strike the firing pin to detonate the cartridge and cause a failure.

These failures can cause major damage to the firearm and bodily injury. As a result, WOLF Ammunition does NOT recommend using our ammunition with any Smith and Wesson M&P-15 rifles until this issue is resolved. Moving forward, WOLF’s 100% Performance Guarantee will not cover any damages associated with Smith & Wesson M&P 15 rifle or rifle created failures exhibiting the above described characteristics. “


Could you please give more detail as to the particular M&P models that have had the damage? Also could you provide the serial numbers involved, was the BCG the same in all reported notifications you received? Have you seen the actual damage, or is this a report from individuals and/or from local gun shops?
I am just trying to get to the bottom of this blanket statement. While your Advisory does give some information, it also does not give a lot information. I have no vested interested in the Smith & Wesson Company, but am an individual that would like a more detailed information on this subject.
Thank you for your time and I am looking forward to your response.
Sincerely,

Richard T. Quigley

I have to stop posting when I first wake up. I was trying to say that a phone call IMO would be a waste of my time as what I post from that phone call would be "Hearsay". I would rather not misquote a phone call, but in writing we can all see word for word their answer.

I would even go so far to post the reply as a scan, or photo of any letter they send in response. Hard to refute that, as opposed to just transcribing it.

If you live in my state you can record phone calls. Do it all the time because my memory isn't so great anymore. You can post the audio to sites if you know which ones. Then just post a link to the audio file.

Just a suggestion.

I had a bad experience with a recorded phone call and would rather have it in writing. When I retired from a municipal government job that had the State pension as our retirement plan, I could not go to work in another municipality like the one I worked for until a waiting period of 90 days was completed. After 5 months I became bored and figured that becoming a substitute teacher would give me pocket money, and I could basically work when I wanted.

I got a job in the local school district and called the State Pension Plan to make sure I was not violating any rules. All conversation was recorded by the State. 4 months into being a substitute, I was called down to the office, told to go home and call the Pension System. The Pension System had the recordings, said yes, we told you that you could work, but we are wrong. Pay back 3 months of benefits I received and could not go to work with an entity that pays into the state pension plan for 180 days. I said my plan said 90 days. They also agreed my plan said 90 days but teachers plan said 180 days.
They won, I paid back the money, stayed out of work for the 180 days. Recorded phone call showing that I was right and they mislead me meant nothing.
I don't trust phone calls, I want to see it in a letter.
Sorry for the rant, but just background on a recorded call.