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02-11-2018, 01:28 PM
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M&P Sport II Which steel case ammo to feed it?
I have only shot 200 rounds thru my Sport II, all brass. I have been reading about steel case ammo and have decided I want to try some. I have been looking at Tulammo, Brown Bear, Wolf and saw some Monarch at Academy.
I would like to get some input from folks that have used steel case ammo in their Sport II's and learn from their experience with these brands of ammo. I am looking for what seems to work best.
If any one has experience with any that I have listed, or others, I would appreciate some feedback.
Thanks!
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02-11-2018, 02:15 PM
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M&P Sport II Which steel case ammo to feed it?
The majority of ammo I’ve through my sport is steel Tulammo from Walmart. In the 2k rounds or so I’ve had about 3 stuck casings. I’m guessing heat in the chamber from 150-200 round firing sessions caused the case to expand. No other issues to report.
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02-11-2018, 03:26 PM
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I am very new to AR's having owned my Sport II for less than a year and was curious just as your are. In the two boxes of cheap Walmart Tulammo I have shot, there were no malfunctions. When I cleaned it later that day, I noticed that the bolt tail was covered in green residue reminding me of corroded copper. I cleaned it off with Hoppes #9 and wire brush. The next trip to the range I shot only Federal brass cased ammo and when cleaning it later, the bolt tail only had black fouling on it. Someone on this forum may can explain why the difference since both brands are smokeless but maybe Tulammo primers might be the difference??
For me personally, I will shoot only brass cased ammo in the future. I can reload .223/5.56 since I used to reload for a bolt action rifle and/or buy brass ammo on sale.
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02-11-2018, 03:36 PM
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I wouldn't suggest shooting steel cased ammo in a AR. I've experienced far too many double feeds/jams using monarch steel cased 223 that could not be cleared without popping the upper off & trying to clear the cases out of the chamber.
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02-11-2018, 05:06 PM
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The AR series wasn't designed for use with steel case ammo. Expect increased extractor wear at minimum.
There was an article on various ammos and how various AR's did with it. Increased rate of malfunction and decreased barrel life (if they're cheap on the brass, they're cheap on the rest of the components) with various steel case stuff was noted. They attempted to justify the increased wear by noting that the ammo savings on ammo would pay for a new barrel and bolt, but there's no real reason to abuse your investment.
That said, it's your toy do what you want.
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02-11-2018, 05:17 PM
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I just ordered 450 rounds of the IMI 5.56 M193 that Midway has on sale right now. Looks like it may be awhile before I look at steel case ammo again!
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02-11-2018, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Garman asked:
I have been reading about steel case ammo and have decided I want to try some.
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Please note that for an AR, the material the case is made out of (be it steel, brass, aluminum or something else) has little to no effect on the rifle.
What you do need to look out for is the construction of the bullet. Conventional gilding metal jacketed bullets cause less wear on the barrel than steel or so-called "bi-metal" jacketed bullets.
Read this post:
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/bra...el-cased-ammo/
Ignore the title of the post. As you read, note that the difference between brass and steel cased ammunition had nothing to do with the results; it was the construction of the bullet and the burn characteristics of the powder that determined how fast the barrel was ruined.
Also keep in mind as you read the article that barrels are "wear items" just like the brake linings on your car and you should expect to need to replace them periodically. The question is "How often?"
Over the last 38 years, I have shot roughly 2,000 rounds through my Ruger Mini-14. After retirement, I expect to shoot about 20 rounds a week for the rest of my active life or about 10,000 rounds total. Since this will all be gilding metal jacketed lead bullets spread across five rifles, I expect barrel wear to be something that will concern my heirs, not me.
I would be more concerned if I were shooting rounds containing bi-metal jacketed bullets.
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02-11-2018, 06:59 PM
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I wouldn't shoot steel ammo, copper bullets or not but that is my personal choice. There will be many for and against it and in the end it's your money and rifle. I don't want to deal with the stuck cases or extractor issues can come from shooting it.
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02-11-2018, 07:19 PM
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I had a guy in the shop today. He was having stopages while running loads of surplus steel cased ammo through a $1800 Tavor x95 and blaming the rifle.
$223/556 in brass cased ammo is plenty cheap and available. Just my two cents, but when you do have issues , please don't blame your rifle.
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02-11-2018, 07:40 PM
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I am considering purchasing a M&P Sport 2 in the near future and this is a topic of interest to me. I have read in a few magazines that brass cased ammo is always best to use in a rifle of any type (semi-auto or bolt) due the natural lubricity of brass compared to steel, which allows for much easier loading and extraction of the ammo. Any opinions about the veracity of these claims?
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02-11-2018, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garman
I just ordered 450 rounds of the IMI 5.56 M193 that Midway has on sale right now. Looks like it may be awhile before I look at steel case ammo again!
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I use exclusively IMI 5.56 ammo and just bought thousands of rounds of this on sale, as it's cheaper than steel cased ammo, at this price. This IMI shoots 1moa or less, with rarely a flyer.
Steel cased ammo has many disadvantages, but the biggest one is the bi-metal bullet, which will wear out a barrel in 5000 rounds.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/bra...el-cased-ammo/
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02-11-2018, 09:10 PM
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Hopefully the IMI ammo goes on sale regularly! That is an excellent price! I would buy another 450 now but I want to see how it runs in my Sport II first.
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02-11-2018, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTC(SS)Ret
I am considering purchasing a M&P Sport 2 in the near future and this is a topic of interest to me. I have read in a few magazines that brass cased ammo is always best to use in a rifle of any type (semi-auto or bolt) due the natural lubricity of brass compared to steel, which allows for much easier loading and extraction of the ammo. Any opinions about the veracity of these claims?
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I don't know about "lubricity" but brass cases tend to rebound better after expanding due to the pressure created from firing the cartridge. This is one of the reasons it easier to extract a brass case. Steel tends to stay in it's new form more after firing, so has a tighter fit making it harder to extract after firing the cartridge.
Brass also normally does not have some sort of protective coating that can "glue" itself to a hot chamber. This issue seems to be more of a problem if a spent cartridge is allowed to stay in the chamber instead of an immediate extraction. Though, I have heard of instances where a spent cartridge will stick in a semiautomatic firearm.
Keep in mind the above are generalities that can happen and don't always do. There are some that run steel all the time and say they have never had an issue.
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02-11-2018, 11:19 PM
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I have fired several thousand rounds of Wolf through two ARs along with smaller quantities of Tulammo and Monarch Steel. One AR experienced two stuck cases with the Tulammo (out of 500 or so fired). No issues in either with Wolf or Monarch.
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02-12-2018, 12:05 AM
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Not all steel cased ammo is created equally. I shoot quite a bit of Hornady Steel cased match... in my area, the ranges do not allow FMJ, so the Hornady steel cased match is a less expensive hollow point. I have not experienced any stuck cases with this, and it is polymer coated. The projectile is the same projectile that is loaded in the Hornady brass rounds, no bi-metal stuff... the powder is also the same as the Hornady brass cased loads. I don't expect any issues or accelerated wear from this.
I've also used Silver Bear... no problems with that from my rifle either.
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02-12-2018, 12:42 PM
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One of the big issues with steel case ammo compared with brass is ductility. The ability of the material to be shaped and, if stressed, to recover the original shape. Both expand to seal combustion gases, brass recovers/releases from the chamber walls better/faster than steel. This reduces extraction forces. As can case taper in the original design.
If you look at operating pressures, all the typical steel cased rounds I've found (7.62 x 39 mm, 8 x 33 mm) have lower operating pressures than .223 Rem/5.56 x 45 mm. This is also going to affect extraction forces. In short, you can expect higher extraction forces and accelerated extractor wear with steel case ammo in .223/5.56 mm.
As has been noted, there are many levels of quality to both brass and steel case ammo. There have also been, we hope, some progress in improving the ductility of steel cartridge cases. If you just gotta go steel, I'd lean toward the Hornaday product. But, it's Berdan primed and you can't reload it.
If you explore the internet, right now you can find good quality brass case ammo darn near as cheap as I can reload it.
Last edited by WR Moore; 02-12-2018 at 12:44 PM.
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02-12-2018, 11:12 PM
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Steel cases can allow increased fouling of the chamber which can lead to stuck cases, even with chromed barrels. A little extra attention to cleaning the chamber will help avoid this.
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02-15-2018, 08:44 AM
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This is one of the best videos explaining how steel ammo affects rifles, especially ARs.
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02-20-2018, 09:55 AM
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I used to use Wolf steel but had way too many stuck cases. Wolf Gold seems good though. And MFS zinc coated steel seems good also.
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03-14-2018, 05:59 AM
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I used wolf aluminum. It was cheap but super dirty. Took me 3x the amount of time to clean. 50rds wolf is like shooting 500 brass in terms of dirtyness. I wont use wolf again. Rather pay more for brass.
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03-14-2018, 03:15 PM
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The lucky gunner test always gets quoted as gospel when steel cased ammo comes up. While interesting, it has some flaws.
First they never established a before when comparing wear on extractors. How does one compare wear, when you have no recorded start point?
Second for barrel wear, it was 10k shot in one day. If you plan on doing mag dumps like a madman and getting your rifle hot enough to burst your optics battery, you can expect the same results. If you can afford to dump ammo that fast you can afford a new barrel.
Heat plays a major factor in barrel life, as you can destroy a barrel in under 1k rounds with brass cased copper jacketed bullets. If you shoot at slower paces like what the other 99% does the results are not comparable. There are a lot of people who have shot over 5k in bimetal ammo and not blown their barrels out.
Bimetal is also not just confined to combloc steel cased ammo. American and other Nato M80 ball can be found with bimetal jackets.
Which steel cased ammo you run is up to you and your gun. They have different pressure curves which may or may not play nice with your rifle. So don't commit to a case unless you know it works.
Also as stated the cases do not expand as well as brass and will cause carbon fouling in your chamber and lead to stuck cases. I don't have a problem switching back and forth from brass to steel and vice versa during a range sessions of up 300 rounds. I clean my rifles before I hit the range again.
I currently have and run wolf, hornady, and Bernaul mil-spec lacquer coated.
Last edited by BlueOvalBandit; 03-14-2018 at 03:17 PM.
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03-15-2018, 12:47 AM
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I can't speak for ARs, but I have used Wolf steel cased ammo in my M1 Carbines. Quite a few stuck cases and it broke the extractor. Twice! Think about it, the 30 Carbine is nowhere near the pressure of the 5.56 and the extractor is at least 3 times bigger.
I'll never use steel case ammo again.
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03-15-2018, 07:14 AM
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I encourage you to use as much steel ammo in your S&W! I just bought some more AOBC stock...
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03-15-2018, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grayfox
I can't speak for ARs, but I have used Wolf steel cased ammo in my M1 Carbines. Quite a few stuck cases and it broke the extractor. Twice! Think about it, the 30 Carbine is nowhere near the pressure of the 5.56 and the extractor is at least 3 times bigger.
I'll never use steel case ammo again.
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Understandably, you want to take care of your old warhorse, but giving the chamber some extra attention when cleaning should help, since the main problem with steel cases is chamber fouling.
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04-04-2018, 02:25 AM
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M&Ps don’t seem to care much for steel case ammo.
My M&P Magpul, older style with chrome bbl, had several rounds stick in chamber, and I litterly had to take a rubber hammer to drive it out.
My POF Puritan on the other hand shoots it with absolutely no problems.
It has 4 small cuts in the chamber that helps keep them from sticking.
I will always shoot brass first and then the steel. Steel doesn’t expand like brass and will sometimes cause brass to stick.
Clean and clean again after using.
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04-04-2018, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batmann
M&Ps don’t seem to care much for steel case ammo.
My M&P Magpul, older style with chrome bbl, had several rounds stick in chamber, and I litterly had to take a rubber hammer to drive it out.
My POF Puritan on the other hand shoots it with absolutely no problems.
It has 4 small cuts in the chamber that helps keep them from sticking.
I will always shoot brass first and then the steel. Steel doesn’t expand like brass and will sometimes cause brass to stick.
Clean and clean again after using.
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OR, it may be that the M&P has the tighter chamber--considered better for accuracy. Like you said, clean well (pay extra attention to the chamber)
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04-04-2018, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Garman wrote:
I am looking for what seems to work best.
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Since each gun is an individual, the only way to know that for sure is to get some of each and see which one your gun likes.
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04-04-2018, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
BlueOvalBandit wrote:
The lucky gunner test always gets quoted as gospel when steel cased ammo comes up.
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Yes and the naming of the article is unfortunate since the test as designed and conducted told the reader essentially nothing about the effect of steel case ammunition on barrel life while it provided a wealth of information about the effect of bi-metal bullets on barrel life.
Quote:
First they never established a before when comparing wear on extractors. How does one compare wear, when you have no recorded start point?
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All the rifles were the same model from the same manufacturer purchased new. What wear were they supposed to establish for new extractors at the beginning of the test?
Quote:
Heat plays a major factor in barrel life,...
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Yes. That's why the test was designed the way it was.
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Bimetal is also not just confined to combloc steel cased ammo.
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First, nobody said it was.
Second, the "combloc" no longer exists.
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04-05-2018, 09:05 AM
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The range I belong to does not allow steel case ammo. No one picks it up and it just lays there getting uglier and uglier as time goes on.
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04-14-2018, 11:48 PM
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Warning! I just got my sport I back from the gunsmith today with a new barrel. I had about 2500 rounds through my stock barrel mostly tulammo and it wore my barrel out. My gunsmith told me that on non chrome lined guns, the tulammo tears out a barrel over time because of the zinc in the jacket. Its not a true copper jacket and he said that he has seen this issue before.
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04-15-2018, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CVFD1433
Warning! I just got my sport I back from the gunsmith today with a new barrel. I had about 2500 rounds through my stock barrel mostly tulammo and it wore my barrel out. My gunsmith told me that on non chrome lined guns, the tulammo tears out a barrel over time because of the zinc in the jacket. Its not a true copper jacket and he said that he has seen this issue before.
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Zinc is a soft metal and shouldn't hurt the bore, but Tula is magnetic, as it has a steel jacketing, under the very thin copper plating. This is what's hard on the bore.
As hdwitt mentioned earlier, the Lucky Gunner posting says it all:
Page Not Found - LuckyGunner.com Labs
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