Getting my first M&P15

S&W_fan · #1 03-04-2018, 08:57 PM

I’ve been wanting to get an M&P15 for some time. I’ve only ever owned revolvers. I just shoot for fun. What would a good model to start with? I was looking at the M&P15 or X. Any suggestions? For those who’ve had theirs for a while, is there anything you would’ve done differently?

TripLeader · #2 03-04-2018, 09:21 PM

I think it just depends on your budget. S&W makes a whole line of AR-15s. The base is the Sport 2. You can get it with a front sight post or completely flat topped, for an optic. The Sport 2 was available some places for as low as $499, until recently. It is probably the best budget friendly AR out there. Now they are out of stock at those prices due to concerns over possible new legislation.

I think availability might be the driving factor as to what you will buy in the near future.

S&W_fan · #3 03-04-2018, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TripLeader

I think it just depends on your budget. S&W makes a whole line of AR-15s. The base is the Sport 2. You can get it with a front sight post or completely flat topped, for an optic. The Sport 2 was available some places for as low as $499, until recently. It is probably the best budget friendly AR out there. Now they are out of stock at those prices due to concerns over possible new legislation.

I think availability might be the driving factor as to what you will buy in the near future.

Thank you. I was looking to spend less than 1k. $499 would be nice! The internet has so much info on these rifles I’ve been overloaded.

Can all of them be customized, I guess I’m looking for something that already has the most common customizations already done.

TripLeader · #4 03-05-2018, 12:07 AM

They can all be customized, but, some only so much. Just buy something of decent quality. The M&P has a warranty and I've only heard good things about them, at all budget levels.

Here's what I suggest with your first AR:

Don't worry about things like the twist ratio of the barrel. Don't worry about the construction of the internal parts. Don't worry about the factory hand guard or butt stock--they can be easily changed.

Worry about the sights--Decide if you want a completely flat stock or a fixed front sight post. I suggest fixed for durabilty, unless you know you're going to put an optic on it.

Decide on the type of front rail & barrel. The best thing to get is a free floating barrel, as that way resting the barrel on something won't introduce error into your shot. But, for recreation, it's not that big of a deal. (And it will cost more.)

There are also several caliber options. I suggest you get one chambered for 5.56. That way you can use that as well as .223. Some ARs are only chambered for .223 and shooting 5.56 in them will cause damage. (Then, of course, there are many other caliber ARs to choose from.)

You might consider if you want a mid-length or a carbine length barrel, meaning what position the gas port is at. Mid-length is more desirable in some people's opinion. It's not a big deal for recreation though.

You can add other things later, like rails, lights, new triggers, different butt stocks, etc.

Westie1 · #5 03-05-2018, 01:03 AM

Add one more thing, prior to doing any mods, and that is buying ammo and shooting. The more you shoot, the more you are able to decide if you want to mod and what mods you really want.

C J · #6 03-05-2018, 01:44 AM

There is nothing wrong with a S&W Sport. I suggest starting with one to see if you really like AR's. If you spend more money you will need to spend a lot more to get a lot better rifle. My Sport is very accurate and reliable. The only thing I changed was the handguard because they come without a heat shield. Don't worry about a free floated barrel. It won't make a whole lot of difference and it will cost considerably more. Don't worry about twist rates unless you plan on shooting very heavy bullets for target shooting or hunting. The most common twist rates shoot a lot of bullet weights. You won't have trouble finding ammo for a 1:9 barrel unless there is another panic, which may be starting so I would buy soon just in case. Very soon. Prices could increase very quickly. Some say the cheap AR's have already sold out. With Trump threatening sanctions against buying AR's the price could go very high.

To be honest it appears you are too late already. I just checked the gun search engines and there are no Sports available anywhere. They are sold out everywhere. Good luck finding one. You may want to wait a while at this point to see if anything comes of what Trump said. My guess is he will see that he will lose substantial political support for what he said and he will back down as he has on other issues. At that point prices will come down and guns will be available.

Rastoff · #7 03-05-2018, 02:59 AM

You've only ever owned revolvers, but what experience do you have with rifles? Have you ever shot a .223Rem rifle before? Bolt action? Lever action? Just what is your experience?

Also, what is you goal with this gun? Will it just be for fun at the range? Competition? Self-Defense?

Answer these questions and we can help better.

agksimon · #8 03-05-2018, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C J

There is nothing wrong with a S&W Sport. I suggest starting with one to see if you really like AR's. If you spend more money you will need to spend a lot more to get a lot better rifle. My Sport is very accurate and reliable. The only thing I changed was the handguard because they come without a heat shield. Don't worry about a free floated barrel. It won't make a whole lot of difference and it will cost considerably more. Don't worry about twist rates unless you plan on shooting very heavy bullets for target shooting or hunting. The most common twist rates shoot a lot of bullet weights. You won't have trouble finding ammo for a 1:9 barrel unless there is another panic, which may be starting so I would buy soon just in case. Very soon. Prices could increase very quickly. Some say the cheap AR's have already sold out. With Trump threatening sanctions against buying AR's the price could go very high.

To be honest it appears you are too late already. I just checked the gun search engines and there are no Sports available anywhere. They are sold out everywhere. Good luck finding one. You may want to wait a while at this point to see if anything comes of what Trump said. My guess is he will see that he will lose substantial political support for what he said and he will back down as he has on other issues. At that point prices will come down and guns will be available.

I believe everything said above is spot on.

My M&P Sport 2 optics ready now has Magpul furniture and a few performance enhancing minor parts, but that's it. I can easily bench rest 1moa or less, using the right ammo and have not had one malfunction with it.

MichiganScott · #9 03-05-2018, 07:59 AM

I've heard AR-15's referred to as tinker toys for adults. You can modify them to almost any configuration you can imagine if you have enough money.

CG2 · #10 03-05-2018, 08:31 PM

Get the MOE Mid Magpul edition....I got mine for $799. Then take the other $200 and buy mags and ammo.

S&W_fan · #11 03-05-2018, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Westie1

Add one more thing, prior to doing any mods, and that is buying ammo and shooting. The more you shoot, the more you are able to decide if you want to mod and what mods you really want.

Thanks. I plan to do that!

S&W_fan · #12 03-05-2018, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rastoff

You've only ever owned revolvers, but what experience do you have with rifles? Have you ever shot a .223Rem rifle before? Bolt action? Lever action? Just what is your experience?

Also, what is you goal with this gun? Will it just be for fun at the range? Competition? Self-Defense?

Answer these questions and we can help better.

I grew up shooting .22 semi automatic rifles. Didn’t shoot a gun for about 20 years and started tinkering around with a 686. Had loads of fun out in the desert and wanted to get another rifle. Something meatier than my old .22. My goal is to just shoot for fun and learn about ARs

S&W_fan · #13 03-05-2018, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CG2

Get the MOE Mid Magpul edition....I got mine for $799. Then take the other $200 and buy mags and ammo.

I’ll check that out. Thanks!

Rastoff · #14 03-06-2018, 01:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S&W_fan

My goal is to just shoot for fun and learn about ARs

Excellent! They are super fun to shoot.

The next question is iron sights or optics?

You can have a lot of fun with iron sights. However, I prefer optics. If you have young eyes, a red dot makes shooting more fun. Place the dot on the target and press the trigger. If you're like me and could use a little magnification, there are some good scopes for not a whole lot of money.

Buying the gun without thinking about the sighting system is a mistake. So, think about it.

Now, I'm going to talk about optics for a moment and it's going to hurt so, sit down...good optics will cost as much or more than the gun. This is a fact. Don't panic though, this is not the end. Decent optics can be had for less.

Some examples:
The Trijicon MRO or Aimpoint H1 are top of the line red dots. The MRO is about $500 and the H1 is about $700.

A company called Primary Arms makes a very decent red dot called the Advanced Microdot for about $180.

For magnified optics my favorite is the Trijicon ACOG which is a fixed power scope. It will run about $1,200-$1,400 depending on model.

For variable scopes there is the very nice Vortex Razor Gen II 1-6x24 for about $2K or the Nightforce ATACR™ 1-8x24 for about $1,720.

You were sitting down, right? There's also the Leatherwood Hi-Lux CMR 1-4x 24 for about $330 which is a really decent scope for that price.

Then there's the iron sights. The M&P Sport II comes with a flip up rear and fixed front sight post. This is by far the least expensive way to go. The issue comes when you decide you want to add an optic. That front post can get in the way.

As you can see there's a lot to think about when it comes to sighting systems. Just be sure to think about it.

Head spinning yet?

My recommendation? If I were starting over with what I know now, I would start with the M&P Sport II OR and put the Primary Arms Advanced Microdot on it. This combination is a nice rifle and really decent optic for less than $850 out the door.

1stgarand · #15 03-06-2018, 02:27 AM

Mods are great, but I shoot mine just like it came out of the box. Shoots good, and loads of fun! Enjoy

CajunBass · #16 03-06-2018, 08:44 AM

I'm another one who really has/had no interest in AR's, but I noticed a stack of them (S&W M&P Sport II) at the local gun shop and thought, "Why not?" So now I've got one. I doubt I'll shoot it much, I'm not really a rifle person, but what the heck. I've got one.

take that gun banners.

The only modification I've considered is a couple of extra magazines, and they're still in the plastic.

DocB · #17 03-06-2018, 08:57 AM

I bought a Sport about a year ago when the price went below $600. Why? I already have a mil-spec Colt M4 SOCOM. Well, back in 2012 they were cheap. I didn't buy one. In 2013, you couldn't find one and couldn't afford it if you did. I decided to get one when the prices went back down. So, I did. Put it in a nice soft case with a bunch of loaded magazines and threw it under the bed. There it is if I really need it. There it is if the prices go crazy again. . .never adverse to doubling my money. It's a nice gun and shoots good too. Nothing ventured. Nothing lost.

kramden · #18 03-07-2018, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TripLeader

They can all be customized, but, some only so much. Just buy something of decent quality. The M&P has a warranty and I've only heard good things about them, at all budget levels.

Here's what I suggest with your first AR:

Don't worry about things like the twist ratio of the barrel. Don't worry about the construction of the internal parts. Don't worry about the factory hand guard or butt stock--they can be easily changed.

Worry about the sights--Decide if you want a completely flat stock or a fixed front sight post. I suggest fixed for durabilty, unless you know you're going to put an optic on it.

Decide on the type of front rail & barrel. The best thing to get is a free floating barrel, as that way resting the barrel on something won't introduce error into your shot. But, for recreation, it's not that big of a deal. (And it will cost more.)

There are also several caliber options. I suggest you get one chambered for 5.56. That way you can use that as well as .223. Some ARs are only chambered for .223 and shooting 5.56 in them will cause damage. (Then, of course, there are many other caliber ARs to choose from.)

You might consider if you want a mid-length or a carbine length barrel, meaning what position the gas port is at. Mid-length is more desirable in some people's opinion. It's not a big deal for recreation though.

You can add other things later, like rails, lights, new triggers, different butt stocks, etc.

Tripleader spelled it out pretty well! Especially about getting one chambered for 5.56 and .223.

bamashooter · #19 03-07-2018, 10:26 AM

if you have the patience, wait a while on your purchase. I'd say hopefully prices will come back to earth nlt Memorial Day weekend.

I don't know what they were previously bringing but these don't look like terrible prices for a Sporter 2 (Buy it Now / Gunbroker). But I really don't know. Plus shipping and ffl transfer.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/754207225

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/754081742

S&W_fan · #20 03-08-2018, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rastoff

Excellent! They are super fun to shoot.

The next question is iron sights or optics?

You can have a lot of fun with iron sights. However, I prefer optics. If you have young eyes, a red dot makes shooting more fun. Place the dot on the target and press the trigger. If you're like me and could use a little magnification, there are some good scopes for not a whole lot of money.

Buying the gun without thinking about the sighting system is a mistake. So, think about it.

Now, I'm going to talk about optics for a moment and it's going to hurt so, sit down...good optics will cost as much or more than the gun. This is a fact. Don't panic though, this is not the end. Decent optics can be had for less.

Some examples:

The Trijicon MRO or Aimpoint H1 are top of the line red dots. The MRO is about $500 and the H1 is about $700.

A company called Primary Arms makes a very decent red dot called the Advanced Microdot for about $180.

For magnified optics my favorite is the Trijicon ACOG which is a fixed power scope. It will run about $1,200-$1,400 depending on model.

For variable scopes there is the very nice Vortex Razor Gen II 1-6x24 for about $2K or the Nightforce ATACR

1-8x24 for about $1,720.

You were sitting down, right? There's also the Leatherwood Hi-Lux CMR 1-4x 24 for about $330 which is a really decent scope for that price.

Then there's the iron sights. The M&P Sport II comes with a flip up rear and fixed front sight post. This is by far the least expensive way to go. The issue comes when you decide you want to add an optic. That front post can get in the way.

As you can see there's a lot to think about when it comes to sighting systems. Just be sure to think about it.

Head spinning yet?

My recommendation? If I were starting over with what I know now, I would start with the M&P Sport II OR and put the Primary Arms Advanced Microdot on it. This combination is a nice rifle and really decent optic for less than $850 out the door.

You got my head spinning. Didn’t realize optics were so cheap! Lol. I planned on just using the iron sights for a while. I’m sure I’ll start looking at optics sooner than later. Thank you for all of the info

S&W_fan · #21 03-08-2018, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1stgarand

Mods are great, but I shoot mine just like it came out of the box. Shoots good, and loads of fun! Enjoy

Glad to hear that. I plan on doing the same

S&W_fan · #22 03-08-2018, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CajunBass

I'm another one who really has/had no interest in AR's, but I noticed a stack of them (S&W M&P Sport II) at the local gun shop and thought, "Why not?" So now I've got one. I doubt I'll shoot it much, I'm not really a rifle person, but what the heck. I've got one.

take that gun banners.

The only modification I've considered is a couple of extra magazines, and they're still in the plastic.

I feel the same way. I have a slight fear of not being able to get one later. I figured to just add a rifle to the collection.

S&W_fan · #23 03-08-2018, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DocB

I bought a Sport about a year ago when the price went below $600. Why? I already have a mil-spec Colt M4 SOCOM. Well, back in 2012 they were cheap. I didn't buy one. In 2013, you couldn't find one and couldn't afford it if you did. I decided to get one when the prices went back down. So, I did. Put it in a nice soft case with a bunch of loaded magazines and threw it under the bed. There it is if I really need it. There it is if the prices go crazy again. . .never adverse to doubling my money. It's a nice gun and shoots good too. Nothing ventured. Nothing lost.

That’s awesome. I like the way you think

Rastoff · #24 03-08-2018, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S&W_fan

You got my head spinning. Didn’t realize optics were so cheap! Lol. I planned on just using the iron sights for a while. I’m sure I’ll start looking at optics sooner than later. Thank you for all of the info

Yes, there is much to learn when it comes to rifles. I've learned a ton and I still consider myself a beginner.

Just one more thing and I'll leave you to it...

The iron sights are a great way to go. The M&P15 Sport II comes with iron sights and they work great. This will get you in the game post haste. Even so, most shooters want an optic sooner rather than later. I already mentioned that the fixed front sight can get in the way. Don't sweat that. If you feel it's in your way, we can help you take it off and replace it with a low profile gas block (about a $35 mod). You may not know what that means just now and that's OK. We're here to help and can answer all your questions as you bring them up.

You're gonna love this gun.

BAM-BAM · #25 03-08-2018, 10:00 AM

Got "a" S&W AR in 5.56 in the safe..........I shoot my 15/22 a whole lot more (same manual of arms).

If I'm out and about in Penn's Woods I'm much more likely to take one of my CZ 527 bolt guns (.223 or 5.56 per CZ).... my favorite is a FS/mannlicher w/ a little 1-4x20 Leupold scope. There are other variations in .223 including the 22" American and a 18" Carbine.

Think you can get both for just about your $1000 budget.

Optics/ scope and extra magazines........ can be picked up over time.

Kadonny · #26 03-09-2018, 10:38 AM

If you want a semi, get a semi.

Just a thought. If you really plan on upgrading a bunch of parts, look now at rifles that already come with the parts you would want to change later, it's a whole lot cheaper to buy a rifle with better/upgraded parts from the get go than to start modding it later on. Lots of beginners buy a bottom basement priced AR then proceed to replace parts and then end up spending way more than had they bought the gun with the features they wanted in the first place. The biggie is the free float rail, that swap is not normally cheap. If you think you want a free float rail (either for accuracy or even for looks) get a rifle that had a free float stock. It will save you both time and money. My opinion.

crracer_712 · #27 03-09-2018, 10:45 AM

I'd get the magpul mid version. I've got 4 m&p 15 rifles, not the mid version. Whichever one you get, all this overload on the internet will start to make sense. They are easy to operate and maintain.

crracer_712 · #28 03-09-2018, 02:41 PM

Just FYI, Grabagun has the sport II flat top in stock for 539.00, at that price, I'd probably go that route.

RedHotFuzz · #29 03-22-2018, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CG2

Get the MOE Mid Magpul edition....I got mine for $799. Then take the other $200 and buy mags and ammo.

What does that have over the Sport aside from the Magpul furniture (and $300)?

cyphertext · #30 03-22-2018, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedHotFuzz

What does that have over the Sport aside from the Magpul furniture (and $300)?

Quite a bit actually...

Magpul furniture, including vertical grip
Co-branded Lower
4150 barrel with 1:8 twist, 5r rifling
mid length gas system
different flash suppressor

peterdeb · #31 03-22-2018, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rastoff

You've only ever owned revolvers, but what experience do you have with rifles? Have you ever shot a .223Rem rifle before? Bolt action? Lever action? Just what is your experience?

Also, what is you goal with this gun? Will it just be for fun at the range? Competition? Self-Defense?

Answer these questions and we can help better.

Not knowing the answer to these questions, and wanting an AR, I would suggest seriously looking at the 15-22. It is a AR platform, shoots 22LR, cheaper to shoot, is relatively inexpensive and is in stock.
It also can be used for the range,competition and self-defense. Its a blast to shoot!!!

CG2 · #32 03-22-2018, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyphertext

Quite a bit actually...

Magpul furniture, including vertical grip
Co-branded Lower
4150 barrel with 1:8 twist, 5r rifling
mid length gas system
different flash suppressor

All that is a nice set of upgrades out of the box. It gives you a good start without having to get all those pieces and put them on yourself. I think it is worth the little bit more unless you are looking for a project.

cyphertext · #33 03-23-2018, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peterdeb

Not knowing the answer to these questions, and wanting an AR, I would suggest seriously looking at the 15-22. It is a AR platform, shoots 22LR, cheaper to shoot, is relatively inexpensive and is in stock.
It also can be used for the range,competition and self-defense. Its a blast to shoot!!!

I have to disagree with quite a bit of this (and I love the 15-22)... While the 15-22 mimics the same manual of arms as an AR-15, it isn't an AR platform firearm. It also is not inexpensive, when compared to other .22lr firearms. I also would not recommend the .22lr for self defense, generally speaking... it just isn't reliable enough for me. But with all that said, yes, it is a fun rifle!

nocents · #34 03-23-2018, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peterdeb

Not knowing the answer to these questions, and wanting an AR, I would suggest seriously looking at the 15-22. It is a AR platform, shoots 22LR, cheaper to shoot, is relatively inexpensive and is in stock.
It also can be used for the range,competition and self-defense. Its a blast to shoot!!!

IMO a 10-22 is a way better option than any 15-22 when it comes to .22lr......and that is before considering the price difference

C J · #35 03-23-2018, 11:46 AM

Quote:

IMO a 10-22 is a way better option than any 15-22 when it comes to .22lr......and that is before considering the price difference

Unless I wanted a project rifle I'd rather have a Marlin .22. They're almost always more accurate out of the box than a Ruger 10/22 (I've tested them myself) and they are considerably cheaper than a Ruger. I've had several Marlins and all but one were flawless. One came with a firing pin problem but that's what warranties are for.

If you're interested I have a target posted on my web site showing the results of a Marlin vs. a 10/22 both brand new at 90 yards. The circled groups are the Marlin 60. There's a 3 shot group, a 3 shot group and a 8 shot group (a full magazine from the Marlin). The other holes are from the Ruger including some that I shot. The first 3 I shot at the bull and the other groups I shot once at an open area of the target then shot at the hole I made.

http://www.a-framevideo.com/targets/90_yard_target.jpg

mx5racer · #36 03-23-2018, 12:26 PM

After looking for several months and reading numerous reviews, decided on the Sport 2, but, inventories were depleted. Finally found an OR today; dealer got 5 in early this week; this was all that was left and was to be sold this weekend. Will sight it in as soon as the snow melts !

jkasch · #37 03-23-2018, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyphertext

Quite a bit actually...

Magpul furniture, including vertical grip
Co-branded Lower
4150 barrel with 1:8 twist, 5r rifling
mid length gas system
different flash suppressor

I think Smith went to 4140 on the barrel on the last update.

cyphertext · #38 03-23-2018, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkasch

I think Smith went to 4140 on the barrel on the last update.

Not on the MOE Mid... unless they have failed to update the spec sheet again...

jkasch · #39 03-23-2018, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyphertext

Not on the MOE Mid... unless they have failed to update the spec sheet again...

You may be right. The site still lists the MOE Mid as 4150 cmv, but the newer MOE SL Mid states 4140. I'm not sure if they still manufacturer the MOE Mid or just list it for the ones that may still be out there.

I have the older 4150 Mid MOE, but put an SL handguard on it. Very nice gun.

cyphertext · #40 03-23-2018, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkasch

You may be right. The site still lists the MOE Mid as 4150 cmv, but the newer MOE SL Mid states 4140. I'm not sure if they still manufacturer the MOE Mid or just list it for the ones that may still be out there.

I have the older 4150 Mid MOE, but put an SL handguard on it. Very nice gun.

Oh, you are correct... so guess the lesson is still check the specs carefully to make sure you are getting what you want...

nocents · #41 03-23-2018, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C J

Unless I wanted a project rifle I'd rather have a Marlin .22. They're almost always more accurate out of the box than a Ruger 10/22 (I've tested them myself) and they are considerably cheaper than a Ruger. I've had several Marlins and all but one were flawless. One came with a firing pin problem but that's what warranties are for.

If you're interested I have a target posted on my web site showing the results of a Marlin vs. a 10/22 both brand new at 90 yards. The circled groups are the Marlin 60. There's a 3 shot group, a 3 shot group and a 8 shot group (a full magazine from the Marlin). The other holes are from the Ruger including some that I shot. The first 3 I shot at the bull and the other groups I shot once at an open area of the target then shot at the hole I made.

http://www.a-framevideo.com/targets/90_yard_target.jpg

can't argue that......I have a 55 year old Marlin bolt action that is a tack driver....

RedHotFuzz · #42 03-26-2018, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyphertext

Quite a bit actually...

Magpul furniture, including vertical grip
Co-branded Lower
4150 barrel with 1:8 twist, 5r rifling
mid length gas system
different flash suppressor

What exactly is the significance of the co-branded lower?

cyphertext · #43 03-26-2018, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedHotFuzz

What exactly is the significance of the co-branded lower?

I don't know that it has any significance, other than the Magpul markings and it doesn't have the M&P logo in white... some folks like that, since it is different than the standard M&P 15 or Sport lowers. Looks like the integral trigger guard is shaped differently as well.

Wanderling · #44 03-28-2018, 06:43 PM

I got my Sport II last year when they were cheap, and I honestly can't ever imagine wanting a different AR-15 in that caliber. Unless I get into shooting heavy grain bullets at long ranges, which is highly unlikely.

I ordered mine with steel front post and a collapsible MBUS rear, and put a Nikon P233 3-9x scope on it (the front post simply disappears due to magnification). I have had lots of fun shooting it with and without the scope. Other than that, no modifications whatsoever.

Spleenless Dave · #45 03-28-2018, 10:01 PM

If you haven't found one yet, Vance Outdoors in Ohio has them in stock for $499, and shipping was only $19.99 to my FFL.