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Old 04-28-2018, 04:38 PM
nighttrainnc nighttrainnc is offline
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This is a naturally overgassed 16" Carbine M&P15 SPORT (Original Version with 1/8 5R Barrel) overgassed as all are.

I'm on a mission to tune it with added mass with Buffers and "possibly" a stronger spring as I ordered a JP- Tuned and Polished Chrome Silicon Buffer Spring with 7% extra power!
(sorry for the lengthy post in advance).

I already added an H buffer awhile back and it made it much smoother, being still want to smooth it out more, but do not want to put it on the border of risking malfunctions, just want it less gassy than from the factory and maybe like 1 step below as far as it could be pushed and to where PMC .223 55gr can still be reliably fired reliably, and not risk malfunctions once a little dirty as these Carbines are known to push on and on in factory configuration, so just want to make it smoother and have less recoil/ muzzle dip, and parts wear.

Just put in a Chrome Silicone "Damage Industries" Buffer Spring (normal strength, 100x longer life expectancy and less Twangy) and haven't used it yet, but ordered a "JP enhanced spring" that is 7% stronger as an add on to an online order to get a discount.
The JP's power is HALFWAY between a White (normal power) Sprinco and a Blue (+17%) Sprinco.

So its either add the new JP buffer spring with my current H buffer,

VS

Keep in the Normal strength Damage Industries CS spring and add an H2 buffer!

Which pair would add the most reliable resistance and is that 7% extra spring power MORE, or LESS than what an extra Tungsten weight would add if I went from an H to H2 buffer with normal spring???


I still want to be able to run PMC 223 55gr, although I have more PMC Xtac 556 on hand but don't want to tune it too far.

I've read archives here of many having great success upgrading to an H2 Buffer, M16 Carrier, and Factory Spring.

So even though the Sport came with a SA BCG and I have a spare ToolCraft Nitirde M16 BCG on hand, the factory SPORT BCG is said to be terrific quality as "Microbest" makes M&P BCGs supposedly...

Any suggestions from those who have done this process??

Last edited by nighttrainnc; 04-29-2018 at 07:24 PM.
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Old 04-28-2018, 06:14 PM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
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You're way overthinking this. The M4 uses an H2 buffer (and stock spring) to reduce the cyclic rate in full auto fire. The Sport doesn't do full auto, doesn't "need" the H2.

But it's your toy and your money. I'm sure you'll find co-conspirators.

Last edited by WR Moore; 04-28-2018 at 06:15 PM.
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Old 04-28-2018, 08:31 PM
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Seems like an adjustable gas block would be what I would check into. Solves your problems no matter the ammo used. They come in just about any flavor you might want .
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Old 04-28-2018, 08:55 PM
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I use exclusively IMI 5.56 FMJ ammo.

I put an H2 carbine buffer in my Sport 2, with a silica carbide spring. It changed the ejection pattern from 1 o'clock to somewhere between 2 and 3 o'clock.
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Old 04-28-2018, 09:08 PM
bamashooter bamashooter is offline
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I have the JP spring in one of my ARs (16") and noticed no difference anywhere as compared to the original.

For grins, I have tested a carbine buffer, H buffer, and H2 in my 8.5" pistol using basic 55 gr ammunition (PMC X-TAC 55gr FMJ-BT).

Surprisingly, I find no difference to include felt recoil or ejection pattern.

It runs fine with all 3. My brass is tossed to approximately 4 o' clock. The H2 might have tossed to about 3:45 but that's about it.
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Old 04-28-2018, 10:13 PM
nighttrainnc nighttrainnc is offline
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OP HERE! Thanks for all advice so far.

I'm mainly wondering if the extra 7% of the JP Spring provides more power against the BCG stronger than an extra Tungsten weight would (H2, as I already have an H which works great with factory spring), being if so and I use the (standard power) "Damage Industries" Chrome Silicone buffer Spring with possibly upgrading to an H2, although would seeing how the JP +7% power CS Spring and my H buffer would work in comparison to going the H2 route???

Due to not knowing how the extra 7% compares to the power of an extra Tungsten weight, it makes me wanna just use the standard strength Damage Industries Spring and H buffer, and possibly an H2 after testing (hopefully soon, which is why I'm asking online as range time takes awhile to find time for).

I would also worry about short stroking when using 223 if using the stronger JP Tuned spring, at least for now unless I hear any first hand accounts or spring weight to buffer weight comparison charts!

Anyone know how much stronger 7% is on a Buffer Spring compared to a Tungsten weight, as far as slowing effect?

Last edited by nighttrainnc; 04-29-2018 at 07:32 PM.
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Old 04-29-2018, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nighttrainnc View Post
OP HERE! Both are supposed to cut down on the Twangy sound when firing. [/B]
When I first got my Sport2, it twanged on every shot. I took out the factory spring and used a lightly oiled rag to wipe it down. That got rid of the twang.

I did change out the spring and buffer later, only because I wanted a silica carbide spring, for longer life and they are .003 smaller in diameter, to make sure the twang never came back.
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Old 04-29-2018, 11:30 AM
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Personally I don't understand the issue with the sound. It's a good indicator of the bolt being locked back so, I like the sound. Still, if you want to get rid of it: Super Duty Chrome Silicon Buffer Spring
- LaRue Tactical


Also, about the gun being "over gassed", don't fix it if it ain't broke. If the gun is cycling properly, don't change anything.
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Old 04-29-2018, 01:35 PM
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Also, about the gun being "over gassed", don't fix it if it ain't broke. If the gun is cycling properly, don't change anything.
My feeling also. My wife bought one of the early S&W's, probably made by Stag, that piles the cases in a tiny group at about 4:30. Mines kicks them forward to about 1:30 and spreads them out. Neither gun has been altered and never will be. Neither gun has ever choked.
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Old 04-29-2018, 07:10 PM
nighttrainnc nighttrainnc is offline
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Made a mistake, the JP tuned Spring is NOT the same as a Sprinco Blue!
The Springco Blue is +17% stronger than a factory spring, while the JP is ONLY 7% stronger than factory. Yet it is Chrome Silicone which has a much greater life span.

Yet this is in NO WAY about the Twangy sound, that's just a bonus.

The purpose of this entire thread is strictly about "Tuning a Sport using Buffers, OR a Buffer and Spring Combo" to slow the slow the cycle and extend Bolt lock time, being the gas post hole is MUCH larger than Mil-Spec (0.63 is proper, M&P rifles have close to a 0.75 gas port/journal), so even though they run great from the factory, the BCG is slamming back and forth WAY too hard compared to a properly gassed Carbine so we can tune them with Buffers and springs to make them feel like shooting a rifle that costs 3x more.

So for those who have done this, what is the heaviest buffer you had success with using where it could still cycle 223 and not **** out once dirty, and basically run much smoother, but just as reliable as from the factory???

Last edited by nighttrainnc; 04-29-2018 at 07:35 PM.
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Old 04-29-2018, 10:46 PM
Racer X Racer X is offline
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As that gas port erodes over time, and it will, no way around it, the issue will just get worse. Adjustable gas block will alleviate all of this.
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Old 05-01-2018, 12:17 AM
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Quote:
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Anyone know how much stronger 7% is on a Buffer Spring compared to a Tungsten weight, as far as slowing effect?
GO SHOOT THE STUPID THING ALREADY AND FIND OUT
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Old 05-02-2018, 09:35 AM
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...the BCG is slamming back and forth WAY too hard compared to a properly gassed Carbine...
Hmmm, well, I don't know the right answer here. I have no idea how to tell if a BCG is moving too hard or not.

What I can tell you is that my favorite AR is ejecting the brass so that it lands at about 1:30 to 2 o'clock. If I were to film it, the brass would be seen hitting the shell deflector and bouncing forward just a little. I'm a lefty and none of the brass has ever hit me in the face. My gun has been 100% reliable over 3,066 rounds.
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Old 05-02-2018, 12:06 PM
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When an AR is over gassed, there is only one fix. Reduce the gas drive. Heavier buffers and stiffer springs may help with the symptoms, but still do nothing to fix the problem.

Many consider H and H2 buffer to be "heavy" buffers but in reality, both buffers are lighter than the original rifle buffer. Carbine buffers are too light, even when an AR is gassed right. The H buffer is the lightest buffer an AR should use.

A properly set up 5.56 AR with a carbine RE uses an H or H2 buffer and a quality carbine action spring, such as a Colt action spring or Sprinco white or blue action spring.

How a BCG group feels is a good indicator how ask AR is gassed. The ejection "chart is not. If the carrier feels like it's slamming back and it's using the proper buffer and spring, the next issue to address is gas drive. An overly large gas port can be fixed by t replacing the barrel, installing an adjustable gas block or using a micro tune gas port from Black River Tactical.

The easiest and most versatile fix is the adjustable gas block. I use the SLR adjustable gas block. It uses click stops for positive adjustments and it's rugged. If anything goes wrong with it, SLR will take care of it, no questions asked.

The most economical is the BRT Micro Port. It's not adjustable, so there are no moving parts. But the Micro ports are replaceable, do the owner can try different diameters to tune their AR. BRT Micro Ports do require the gas block gas port be threaded for installation.

Nightrainnc, to tame your over gassed Sport, install an H2 buffer with your JP spring, then tune the gas drive with an SLR adjustable gas block. If you want to keep your original gas block, use the Micro Port kit from Black River Tactical.

About my previous post- Sometimes I'm a jerk.
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Old 05-02-2018, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by nighttrainnc View Post
So for those who have done this, what is the heaviest buffer you had success with using where it could still cycle 223 and not **** out once dirty, and basically run much smoother, but just as reliable as from the factory???
Does it come with a semi or FA style bolt carrier?

If you want to experiment with buffer weights, buy a pack
of small split shot sinkers. Drive out the roll pin on buffer,
and pull one of the weight cylinders out and fill it with split
shot...try it, pull out another cylinder, etc etc.
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Old 05-03-2018, 01:59 AM
nighttrainnc nighttrainnc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
When an AR is over gassed, there is only one fix. Reduce the gas drive. Heavier buffers and stiffer springs may help with the symptoms, but still do nothing to fix the problem.

Many consider H and H2 buffer to be "heavy" buffers but in reality, both buffers are lighter than the original rifle buffer. Carbine buffers are too light, even when an AR is gassed right. The H buffer is the lightest buffer an AR should use.

A properly set up 5.56 AR with a carbine RE uses an H or H2 buffer and a quality carbine action spring, such as a Colt action spring or Sprinco white or blue action spring.

How a BCG group feels is a good indicator how ask AR is gassed. The ejection "chart is not. If the carrier feels like it's slamming back and it's using the proper buffer and spring, the next issue to address is gas drive. An overly large gas port can be fixed by t replacing the barrel, installing an adjustable gas block or using a micro tune gas port from Black River Tactical.

The easiest and most versatile fix is the adjustable gas block. I use the SLR adjustable gas block. It uses click stops for positive adjustments and it's rugged. If anything goes wrong with it, SLR will take care of it, no questions asked.

The most economical is the BRT Micro Port. It's not adjustable, so there are no moving parts. But the Micro ports are replaceable, do the owner can try different diameters to tune their AR. BRT Micro Ports do require the gas block gas port be threaded for installation.

Nightrainnc, to tame your over gassed Sport, install an H2 buffer with your JP spring, then tune the gas drive with an SLR adjustable gas block. If you want to keep your original gas block, use the Micro Port kit from Black River Tactical.

About my previous post- Sometimes I'm a jerk.
Thanks for the info!

Unfortunately, I will not be able to do any tuning to the gas system, so I'll strictly be dealing with Buffers and possibly the JP Spring.

I have an H2 buffer in a Spike's Middie, and I highly doubt the middie needs an H2 after what I've researched so the H in the Sport may serve the Spike's middie better, and the H2 from the Spike's serve the Sport better.

Out of 3 Smith's I spoke with, all suggested the H2 and normal spring (in this case a Chrome Silicon Damage Industries normal power spring) OPPOSED to an H buffer and the JP Spring.

I figured since the JP is 7% extra power, that it would serve best with a lighter buffer.

I have a M16 ToolCraft Carrier I bought for this but have been convinced that the M&P BCG, even thought SA, is top quality and not worth changing out being it's only a 14oz difference.

Seems an H2, factory Spring, and M16 BCG is the sweet spot for these Sports as I've read in archived threads, but now thinking about it, an H2 plus that JP spring would nearly be close to the 14ozs of an M16 Carrier, so maybe it indeed wouldn't be Overkill.

One Smith said he felt like the JP spring would highten the risk of me having malfuntions down the road (likely short stroking).

Although, being an M16 Carrier upgrade is no big deal at all and is 14ozs heavier and an H2 buffer is ONLY 1.5ozs heavier than a CAR buffer, is that a good way to look at things and how an H2 plus the JP spring that doesn't drag in the tube and has more forward power wouldn't equal an M16 Carrier in theory?

Or being in in the buffer tube, does that make a bigger difference even though not nearly as heavy as the Carrier, which would slow itself opposed to the H/H2 and slowing rearward travel and the JP +7% power speeding up forward travel and lock time.

Using SLIP 2000 EWL30 also and not sure if that makes a difference being it moves carbon to the side so hoping carbon wouldn't be as much of an issues.i just do not want to tune it to being on the border of malfunctions when getting dirty or not running like a tank as the SPORTs do from the factory when they are overgassed, so I'm hoping the overgassing isn't what makes them run so well, hopefully that's just to eat a wide variety of ammo solely.

I even proposed the JP Spring with an H buffer to allow the spring to build it close to the equivalent of an H2, and was told do an H2 and not mess with the spring.

What are the Con's of an upgraded spring???

Is likely being to make the cycling too stiff or risk it being on the border of it not having enough gas? Or do many people just not do combos to be lazy and only use buffers?

They say the JP spring DOES increase muzzle dip though as it snaps forward to ensure a good and longer lock time and have like a one-two punch feeling (rear cycle and forward cycle felt), the JP is half the weight of a Blue Sprinco though so if you have tried this, I may test this out after trying an H2 with my Damage Industries normal strength CS Spring.

What should I look for? Try short stroking tests like not shouldering the rifle when firing 223 etc?

I've heard the ejection pattern tells the most when tuning, although from the factory if was hitting the brass deflector and flying out around about 4:30, a behind me to my right in a nice consistent area, but don't think it was 5 o'clock.
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Old 05-03-2018, 05:33 AM
MistWolf MistWolf is offline
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You are gonna make yourself crazy over thinking this. I have been experimenting with gas drive and buffers and this is the bottom line- Heavy buffers will not solve over gassing.

To Fix your problem-
-Install an H buffer or an H2 buffer and the JP spring.
-Install an SLR adjustable gas block.

The above steps will solve your problem. The SLR is easy to adjust and tuning is a snap. All of my testing was done with a full auto BCG.

To drive the point home, you will not fix your over gassing problem with a heavy buffer. Heavy buffers introduce problems of their own and will throw the system out of balance. H and H2 buffers are not heavy buffers. Think about this- correctly tuned AR carbines use a .0625 gas port and an H buffer.

Do not use the ejection pattern to try to tune your rifle. It is not reliable enough to tune correctly. Tune your AR by starting with the lock back check.

If you cannot tune the gas system, you're wasting your time. The best thing to do would be to sell it and buy a Colt AR. The Colt comes from the factory with the right gas port, springs and buffer.

Last edited by MistWolf; 05-03-2018 at 05:36 AM.
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Old 05-03-2018, 09:22 AM
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An FA carrier is not 14 ounces heavier than a semi carrier, and
spring, buffer & carrier weight have no effect on lock time.
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Old 05-03-2018, 01:22 PM
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Do not use the ejection pattern to try to tune your rifle. It is not reliable enough to tune correctly. Tune your AR by starting with the lock back check.
Finally someone else that doesn't worship on the alter of the ejection pattern. I've found extractors and ejectors both have major roles in where the empty cases land. I tried mentioning that on ARF.COM once.........................I still have third degree burns. I've long since forgotten my password.
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Old 05-04-2018, 01:06 PM
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I've asked this before, but it seems to have been lost. How do you know if the BCG is moving too hard? What is a "lock back" check?

I agree that ejection pattern is not a reliable test of the gas system. However, if the gun is functioning, i.e. cycling reliably, why mess with the gas system at all?

Also, I agree that the gas system can only be fixed by adjusting the gas system. Changing buffers and springs is not the answer.
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Old 05-04-2018, 07:45 PM
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Lock back check tests whether or not the rifle locks back on the last round. Place one round in the mag, load the rifle and shoot it. If it doesn't lock back, it's short stroking. When tuning with an adjustable gas block, close down the gas until the rifle ejects but does not lock back. Then open it one click at a time until it ejects and locks back.

If the carrier is moving too far, the buffer will hit the back of the RE and recoil will feel sharp. Sometimes it will sting the face of the shooter.
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Old 05-04-2018, 10:20 PM
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Thanks for the info.

I know it doesn't fix the actual core issue, but I just want it to run as if it were gassed properly, or better yet, run as smoothly as possible with an H or H2 and possibly use the 7% power spring combo if the setup will still run PMC- 55gr 223 minimum, but be much smoother than it currently is.

Some people with properly gassed Carbines even add heavier buffers, so just want to make it a Cadillac basically.

Also, I indeed was wrong, an M16 Carrier is 14 GRAMS heavier, not Ounces... which is ONLY a half of an OUNCE heavier, a tad less than 1 Tungsten weight in a buffer is.

With that being said, if the sweet spot on a SPORT from archived threads was said to be an "H2 Buffer, M16 Carrier, and factory Spring"... If so, me using an H2, Semi-Auto Carrier, and JP +7% power Chrome Silicon Spring may equate to that extra half an OZ that an M16 Carrier would provide, or, it may be a tad more.

I'll try both springs out though.

Again, just want it to run as smooth as possible and already have the Buffers and Springs needed (even have a Nitride M16 Carrier with 158C bolt, but was told the M&P BCGs are such good quality to not swap it out unless it ever craps out one day as their proven to be great as made by "Microbest" supposedly).

With that said, I will not be buying anything to adjust the gas system, although I appreciate that info greatly, but will proceed going this route and was just curious if any active members have achieved this on an Actual SPORT with a JP Spring and Buffers, opposed to seeing the threads about this all over this forum archived on Google.
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Old 05-05-2018, 05:06 PM
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For an entirely different reason (I don't like the twang sound), I just today installed the JP Enterprises Silent Captured Spring assembly in my Sport II. I used the optional Tungsten weight to give the buffer the equivalent of an H-1 weight.

I already like the smoothness and the noise reduction when racking the bolt, it sounds like a solid gun now. I will get to the range next week to see how it performs.

I'll post again after I shoot it.
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Old 05-05-2018, 05:59 PM
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Lock back check tests whether or not the rifle locks back on the last round. Place one round in the mag, load the rifle and shoot it. If it doesn't lock back, it's short stroking. When tuning with an adjustable gas block, close down the gas until the rifle ejects but does not lock back. Then open it one click at a time until it ejects and locks back.

If the carrier is moving too far, the buffer will hit the back of the RE and recoil will feel sharp. Sometimes it will sting the face of the shooter.
Thanks for this instruction.

As I sated earlier, I have over 3K rounds through one gun and never an issue. So, I never thought of tuning the gas system. It may be a little over gassed, but is it really a problem? So far it hasn't been.

I guess guns will come from the factory a little over gassed to ensure reliability. The Mini-14 must be hugely over gassed because it throws shells like it's trying to win the javelin at the Olympics.
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Old 05-05-2018, 07:57 PM
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Rastoff, ejection pattern is not an indication of over gassing. A rifle can throw an empty two zip codes over without being over gassed. Maybe your Mini is over gassed, maybe it isn't.

If your AR or your Mini isn't giving you any trouble and you're happy with their function, don't worry about it. Enjoy shooting them often. I began learning about over gassing when I built a 10.5" pistol with an overly large gas port and exacerbated the problem by screwing on a suppressor. When I started, the pistol stung with every shot. Now, it's one of smoothest, softest shooting ARs out there.

Last edited by MistWolf; 05-05-2018 at 07:58 PM.
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Old 05-05-2018, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
Rastoff, ejection pattern is not an indication of over gassing.
You clearly know more about this than I do, but I'm not convinced that ejection and gassing are not related at all.

If a gun is over gassed, will it not eject the round with more authority? Understand, I'm not talking about where the round lands or if it lands in a small pile vs scattered all over the place. What I'm talking about is shear force of ejection. They have to be related at least a little.

Look at it slightly differently. If the gas system is set perfectly, it will throw the shells in one manner. Open it up to allow more gas and it will throw them differently. Is that not true?

So, yes, I agree that one gun properly gassed and another, also properly gassed, may not throw the shells in the same place. However, the same gun will throw them differently based on how the gas system is set. Don't you think?
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Old 05-05-2018, 11:54 PM
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It isn't that there is no co-relation, it's just that the co-relation is not consistent enough for an accurate analysis. There are too many variables to account for, such as ejector, ejector spring, extractor, extractor spring, action spring, reciprocating mass and burn rate of the powder in the ammunition.

For example, if an AR has a weak ejector spring, ejection distance will be short, even if the AR is over gassed. If the AR ejector spring is strong, ejection distant will be greater.

The most common malfunction attributed to over gassing has nothing to do with over gassing at all. That is when an empty fails to eject from the action, preventing the feeding of the next round from the magazine. There will be an empty in the action and the next round will be partially stripped from the magazine, the bolt over riding the base of the fresh round. Many believe this malfunction is due to excessive carrier speeds due to over gassing. They believe the excessive speed has the carrier out-running the magazine. Nothing could be further from the truth. This malfunction is caused by a weak extractor spring and/or an out of spec extractor. Trying to use ejection angle to diagnose how an AR is gassed in this case is the ultimate exercise in futility.

That isn't to say ejection angle and distance should be ignored. The angle and distance of ejection from a well running AR will be consistent. Any change in the ejection pattern should be investigated.

Last edited by MistWolf; 05-05-2018 at 11:57 PM.
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Old 05-06-2018, 02:00 AM
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OK, now I'm tracking. My critical thinking was not too critical for a moment there, but I'm back now.

I mean, duh, the ejection of the spent casing from an AR has almost nothing to do with the gas or the action of the BCG. In fact, it's all about the ejector and ejector spring. I don't know why I didn't make that connection before. I guess I was thinking of how the pistols work.

You see, in a pistol the ejection is directly proportional to the strength of the movement of the slide. This is because the ejector is fixed and it's the moving casing hitting the fixed ejector that kicks the shell out. In an AR it's completely different. The ejector is under spring pressure/tension and the ejector moves in relation to the bolt face. It's that movement that kicks the casing out.

Of course the speed of the BCG will affect the landing pattern because it will dictate when the casing hits the deflector. Though it isn't a significant indicator of BCG speed, it is a factor.

The Mini-14 is a poor example because it has a fixed ejector. It works just like the pistol in that respect. In the case of the Mini, the ejection pattern/distance IS directly proportional to the action of the bolt and therefore, is an indicator of how the gas system is working. Of course the Mini is a piston system and that's also different.
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Old 05-06-2018, 04:01 AM
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It's a misconception that the AR is a direct impingement system. If you compare the gas system of the AR to the direct impingement used in the Ljungman rifle, you'll see there are significant differences. In the original patent got the gas system used in the AR, it makes it clear it's not direct impingement.

Another misconception is that somehow the AR doesn't have a piston. The fact is, the AR does have a piston. The tail of the bolt is a piston and where it fits inside the carrier is a cylinder.
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Old 05-06-2018, 10:58 AM
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I've been down this road. There's an old thread somewhere on this sub forum where I purchased and tested a few buffers. If the goal is to smooth out the perceived recoil impulse + get that ejection pattern closer to that chart that floats around the internet...

Damage Industries Chrome Silicone Spring + Kyntec Corp AR-15 hydraulic buffer + lightened/lightweight BCG (exotic coating if desired).

Decrease spring noise, progressive buffer dampening, lightened reciprocating mass.

Please Note: It's been my experience that while this setup output exactly as desired, it's true function is to drastically lighten your wallet. Money better spent on a better trigger, optic, or more ammo. I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, because I'm subject to my own inclinations towards "ooo that's cool" stupidity that overrides my common sense. I just thought I'd put out the warning out of good conscience.
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Old 05-06-2018, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
It's a misconception that the AR is a direct impingement system.
Now you're just going off the rails. First, there is no reason to even bring this up. Everyone in the AR world, who cares, knows the difference between gas piston and direct impingement. Second, trying to say that direct impingement is really a gas piston system is splitting the finest of hairs.

No one doubts or even tries to suggest that the AR doesn't have a piston or cylinder. All direct impingement means is the gas is brought back to and used directly at the BCG.

Comparing it to the rare, or at least extremely uncommon, Ljungman rifle is pointless. Yes, they're different, but both use the gas directly at the BCG. In the Ljungman the gas pushed directly on the BCG. In the AR, the gas pushes on the bolt and the bolt pushes the BCG back.

In a piston driven rifle, the gas is used away from the BCG. It pushes on a rod which then acts on the BCG or directly on the bolt as in the Mini or M14.
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Old 05-07-2018, 01:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
In the AR, the gas pushes on the bolt and the bolt pushes the BCG back.
Well, correct if I am wrong, and I very well may be, but I always thought that the silver gas tube in the upper receiver just behind the Barrel extension would go inside of the Port on the Gas Key, and assumed that was the MAIN driving force of Gas in a Direct Impingment AR.

If I am wrong, and as somewhat of a novice of Direct Impingments, I very well may be, but what necessarily allows the gas to push directly into the Bolt?

Or am I assuming you mean the Bolt Face and really you mean the method I described, yet once in the gas key what it does?

Where exactly does that pressure make full contact with the Bolt to provide the needed force?

Does it go from the Receiver's gas tube, into the gas key, into the 3 gas ring openings, and out of the rear portion of the bolt, or is there an area it actually pushes once inside?


If so, does it provide pressure on the firing pin or just blow gas out if the rear or the bolt tail, in which the carrier is wide open..?.?.?

Not as simple as AKs which I am used to, I admit.
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Old 05-07-2018, 11:45 AM
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Now you're just going off the rails. First, there is no reason to even bring this up.
Perhaps. But it was brought up that the Mini-14 is different (from the AR) because it has a piston. This ignores the fact the AR has a piston.

The AR does NOT use a direct impingment system. The AR uses an expansion chamber inside the carrier. The direct impingement system does not. In the direct impingement system, the gas flows from the gas tube directly a small piston fixed externally to the carrier. This pushes the carrier rearward to unlock the bolt.

In the AR gas system, the gas flows through the gas tube to the gas key. From the gas key, it flows into what Stoner calls an expansion chamber. Inside the expansion chamber (cylinder) is the piston, the tail of the bolt. When the gas in the expansion chamber reaches operating pressure, the carrier is pushed to the rear. The piston (bolt) remains fixed in place until it is unlocked then pulled back with the carrier.

There are exhaust ports in the right side of the AR carrier. You can see them if you look into the ejection port. When the carrier moves enough, the exhaust ports are open and the gas vents through them.

If you look up the original patent covering the gas system, Eugene Stoner states it is not a direct impingement system because his system uses an expansion chamber. The US Patent Office agreed when they approved the patent.

If you check Colt's literature describing their AR, you will see they describe the gas system as a "direct gas" system, not direct impingement.

It is not pointless to compare the AR gas system to the Ljungman because the Ljungman is the prime example of a direct impingement system. If you study the Ljungman, you can see the difference betwen it's DI system and the direct gas system of the AR.

The AR is a piston system. The difference between it and the Mini-14 or the AK is that the piston in the AR is located in the carrier inside the receiver, not the gas block.

If we were just splitting hairs, I would point out that the AK is more like a direct impingement system than the AR. The AK has a piston fixed externally to the carrier, just like the Ljungman. The only difference is, the AK piston is longer and its gas tube shorter.

Last edited by MistWolf; 05-07-2018 at 11:49 AM.
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Old 05-07-2018, 10:09 PM
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I'm changing this post because we're just talking semantics. What's important is to know how the system works and you do. What we call it is really irrelevant as long as we know what it means.

The term organic is all the rage in produce. Aren't all tomatoes organic regardless of what chemicals are used to control insects? Yet we use that term to denote that the tomato was grown without harsh chemicals (whatever that means). Isn't water a chemical?

So, any disagreement over calling the gas system one thing or another serves no purpose. I'll defer to you.
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Last edited by Rastoff; 05-07-2018 at 11:35 PM.
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Old 05-16-2018, 07:59 PM
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As I mentioned earlier, I installed the JP Silent captured spring assembly in my Sport II and finally got to the range to check it out.

I fired about 300 rounds through the rifle of all types except steel, and didn't have a single issue. When I ordered the assembly I asked the good folks at J.P. to install a single tungsten weight giving the buffer a H (H-1) equivalent.

The rifle seems to have a bit less recoil and ejects the shells at 3:00 with lots of energy (There was a wall next to me at the range).

Absolutely NO Twang noise. I am delighted with the addition to my Sport. I was just notified that the LaRue MBT trigger I ordered several months ago (I had plenty of time), has shipped today. Once I get the trigger installed My Rifle is done!! The only S&W parts left are the BCG, Stripped Lower and Upper, and the barrel with flash hider. I did shave down the front sight to clear my free floated hand guard. I have had a lot of fun and learned lots with this rifle. I built (assembled) a second AR-15 over the past year from parts I hand selected based on weight and quality for the most part.

This BRD is a lot of fun!
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Old 05-16-2018, 10:11 PM
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This reminds me of calibrated washer packs to index your spark plugs for optimal orientation to get 2 more horsepower on a 500 hp engine. Is it real? Yes. Does it REALLY matter? No.
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Old 05-17-2018, 01:38 AM
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It matters if 1. You can afford it and 2. If the Twang bothers you!

It's not your money anyway.
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Old 05-17-2018, 01:39 AM
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Plus if you are racing a formula ford with 100 HP. 2 HP does matter A LOT!
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Old 05-17-2018, 12:23 PM
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Ricrock, when I shot competitively I figured that if I heard the twang I wasn't concentrating hard enough on my target. And yes, I can afford it.

I'm glad that you are now happy with your rifle.
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