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Old 05-07-2018, 12:40 AM
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When do I add Scope to AR15? When do I add Scope to AR15? When do I add Scope to AR15? When do I add Scope to AR15? When do I add Scope to AR15?  
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Originally Posted by goodoboy View Post
Thank you cyphertext,

Yes, I will be using a scope only for hunting.

Ok in will go to Academy and get the P233 3x9 scope and let them mount it on AR. And ask them to Bore . I will have to learn how to adjust the P223 scope.

Then I will hire an instructor to teach me how to zero scope, proper breathing, and trigger control. Then I just practice from there on.

How do you know what type of scope to get?
For general hunting, a 3 to 9 power (3-9x) or a 4 to 12 power (4-12x) will meet your needs fairly well. Pick a reticle that you like, and make sure the scope is clear and bright. Clarity is more important to me than magnification.

That Nikon scope would not be my first pick for hunting, but it isn't a bad scope for general use.
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Old 05-07-2018, 01:26 AM
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There is a shooting range called Carters Country. I'm sure they will have some instructional opportunity there. It's been years since I've been there, but remember it fondly. They had 100 and 200 yard ranges...places for skeet and trap, and pistol ranges too. Check it out. I think you'll like it. : ) (713) 461-1844

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Old 05-07-2018, 06:25 AM
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A scope will not necessarily make you shoot better. Until you get the basics like cheek weld, breathing site picture and trigger squeeze down the scope may add one more distraction. A scope may improve your sight picture but does nothing for the other mechanics of shooting.
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Old 05-07-2018, 08:32 AM
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A scope will not necessarily make you shoot better. Until you get the basics like cheek weld, breathing site picture and trigger squeeze down the scope may add one more distraction. A scope may improve your sight picture but does nothing for the other mechanics of shooting.
You are correct that it doesn't necessarily make him shoot better, but it does make learning simpler since he does not need to worry about sight alignment... but the basic techniques you mention are still in play.

I know all of us old timers were taught irons first, but I have found that when teaching new shooters, it is easier to teach them with optics first. Once they are shooting well with optics, then they can "advance" to iron sights if they want. Apparently the military is finding this too, since Marines now learn to shoot with optics in basic.
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Old 05-07-2018, 11:42 PM
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...does not need to worry about sight alignment...
Now you know that's not true.
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Old 05-08-2018, 12:15 AM
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Now you know that's not true.
It is absolutely true... with a scope, there is no front and rear sight to align. Still has to master sight picture, consistent cheek weld, breathing, and trigger control, but not sight alignment.
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Old 05-08-2018, 12:54 AM
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So, eye relief and parallax are just imaginary?
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Old 05-08-2018, 02:24 AM
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Quote:
goodoboy wrote:
When do I add Scope to AR15?
Never.

The original Stoner design was intended for optical sights out to a range of about 300 yards.

Subsequently, the carrying handle (and rear sight) were carved off the rifle. You can attach an optic to the resulting flat rail, but you need to be sure that whatever sight system you pick is permiited by the Army for inclusion on one of their duty rifles.
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Old 05-08-2018, 07:37 AM
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I've got an original Colt 4x20 optic mounted to the carry handle of my Colt AR-15 Sporter II. Is there some Colonel in the Pentagon I need to speak with . . . ?

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Never.

The original Stoner design was intended for optical sights out to a range of about 300 yards.

Subsequently, the carrying handle (and rear sight) were carved off the rifle. You can attach an optic to the resulting flat rail, but you need to be sure that whatever sight system you pick is permiited by the Army for inclusion on one of their duty rifles.
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Old 05-08-2018, 09:11 AM
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So, eye relief and parallax are just imaginary?
Eye relief is set when you mount the scope. If you are having issues with eye relief once the scope is mounted, you need to re-mount it. Scope mounted at the proper distance and consistent cheek weld make this a non issue.

Parallax isn't really an issue for a hunting rig. Maybe when you are shooting from a bench you are good enough to notice a little parallax error, but at 100 yards on a pig, not enough to even discuss with a quality scope. Look through the center of the scope and again, non-issue.

The point is, using a scope is much easier than aligning the front and rear sight. Most folks can tell if they are looking through the center of the scope a lot easier than they can properly align sights.

Arguing this level of minutia, particularly for the OP, is like arguing if the AR is truly direct impingement.
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Old 05-08-2018, 10:33 AM
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Is it time to begin the first vs second focal plane debate?
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Old 05-08-2018, 10:19 PM
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Your thread: When do I add Scope to AR15?
Short reply: Now!
Yeah learning to shoot with the peep sights that came on it is a great plan.
Buy a 22 with peep sights and save the money for a good scope. Hammering away with 5.56 or .223 on a self help mission can get expensive.
I like a 1-4 but you may want more magnification. The low magnification range on the scope gives you the same type speed on target as a Red Dot and you can crank it up for the longer pokes.
Good luck.
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Old 05-08-2018, 11:51 PM
goodoboy goodoboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyphertext View Post
Eye relief is set when you mount the scope. If you are having issues with eye relief once the scope is mounted, you need to re-mount it. Scope mounted at the proper distance and consistent cheek weld make this a non issue.

Parallax isn't really an issue for a hunting rig. Maybe when you are shooting from a bench you are good enough to notice a little parallax error, but at 100 yards on a pig, not enough to even discuss with a quality scope. Look through the center of the scope and again, non-issue.

The point is, using a scope is much easier than aligning the front and rear sight. Most folks can tell if they are looking through the center of the scope a lot easier than they can properly align sights.

Arguing this level of minutia, particularly for the OP, is like arguing if the AR is truly direct impingement.
Thanks cyphertext,

I totally agree with you on this. I rather get a scope, hire a professional instructor to help me learn how to consistently shoot accurately 0-200 yards.

Once the mechanics is learned, I can easily return to front iron sights accuracy shooting.

Thanks
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Old 05-08-2018, 11:55 PM
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Arguing this level of minutia, particularly for the OP, is like arguing if the AR is truly direct impingement.
You got me there.

However, there are fine points of using a scope too. In order to set the eye relief, you must know what it is and how to set it. In order to compensate for parallax you must know what it is also.

Yes, I agree that a scope can be easier. It's not the magic bullet though. That's my point here.

Even so, I completely agree that there's really no reason to learn iron sights before going to a scope. If you want a scope, just get a scope.

Now, should we go into the differences between a $60 scope and a $600 scope? Or should we save that for after the frustration?
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Old 05-09-2018, 12:06 AM
goodoboy goodoboy is offline
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Originally Posted by walnutred View Post
A scope will not necessarily make you shoot better. Until you get the basics like cheek weld, breathing site picture and trigger squeeze down the scope may add one more distraction. A scope may improve your sight picture but does nothing for the other mechanics of shooting.
Thank you walnutred,
I am planning to take a rifle and AR-15 training course soon to shoot consistently accuracy at 50-200 yards. I am not sure where at just yet.
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Old 05-09-2018, 12:08 AM
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That Nikon scope would not be my first pick for hunting, but it isn't a bad scope for general use.
Thank you,

What are your recommendations for scopes for hunting? I do plan to buy a deer rifle soon (30-.06 or .308) and practice alot with a .22lr rifle, then practice with AR-15.

I would like to use the same scope on all rifles.
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Old 05-09-2018, 01:41 AM
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You don't want to use just one scope on multiple rifles. The ballistics of the different rounds means every time you change rifles and re-mount the scope, you have to re-zero it. You can buy 3 of the same scopes and go that route.
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Old 05-09-2018, 08:20 AM
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before I start on this let me apologize to the poster if this is real.
that said after rereading this thread I'm starting to believe this is some trolling going on.
you always only refer to the "front sight" not sights on your rifle, that's odd.
I've shot with and shown a bunch of new shooters the basics of shooting with rifle, pistol, and shotgun and never had anyone who had that much problem. This is even shooting crossing clays with a shotgun, so you're unique at least.
Never been to a range where there is not some self appointed "expert" that wouldn't have stopped to give you some pointers, but I'm originally from the Dallas area Huston may be different.
A Google search of peep sight / sight picture should have been able to tell you all you need to know on the subject.
Last but not least is planning a deer hunt with a 5.56 caliber you don't shoot well is just wrong. Killing deer isn't a hit anywhere takes them down using a varmint caliber takes a good hit in a vital area, you aint there. Some one suggest going to an AR-10 and .308 I'd suggest re-barrel your rifle to a .50 Beowulf and limit you shots to 10 yards.
Again if I'm wrong about this sorry but all of this just doesn't add up to a real posting.

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Old 05-09-2018, 09:09 AM
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A few thoughts on the AR-15 and shooting accurately.

1) I never had any issues qualifying with an AR-15 on head and shoulder sized targets out to 150 meters and torso sized targets from 200-350 meters, using an M16A1 and the standard iron sights. Most M16s in excellent, non abused condition would shoot about 1.5 MOA with M193 ammo, and that was about the limit of the iron sights on them

2) There is a great deal of benefit in learning to shoot well with iron sights. Aperture sights, like those on your AR-15 are easy to use as your eye will naturally center the front sight in the rear aperture. In the military, with the older M16A1 troops were taught where to hold on the target to compensate for the trajectory of the round with the 0-300m short range aperture and the 350m aperture, and if the shooter knew his stuff scoring 100 percent on the range was not a problem.

Some folk argue that a scope is "easier" and my response to that is "yes and no". A scope magnifies any instability in the shooter's position, and it can prevent the shooter from developing good trigger control.

With iron sights, you learn to accept some wobble in the prone position, and even more wobble in sitting and standing positions, and you learn to increase pressure on the trigger when the sight picture looks good and hold pressure on the trigger when the sight picture looks bad. That results in the shot always breaking when the sight picture looks good and is trending toward "better".

With a scope, the magnified wobble tends to lead shooter so jerking the trigger when the cross hairs are moving through the target. That doesn't work well and those shooters end up shooting ok from a bench or off a rest, but never shoot well in traditional position shooting or in the field where a solid rest can be hard to find.

My advice is to learn to use iron sights first. Once you are shooting 3-4" groups at 100 yards from an unsupported prone position, then worry about getting a scope. If you absolutely feel you want one now, get one with a maximum magnification of no more than 4x. A 3x or 1.5 to 4x scope where you can dial down the magnification is better.

3) The only challenge in shooting a perfect score on a military qualification range was sometimes seeing a freshly placed green target against the green foliage through the smaller long range aperture. After the target had been there awhile, the poorer shooters chewed up enough dirt around and behind the target to make them stand out. It supports the old adage that you can't hit what you can't see and that's the advantage a scope can offer.

4) Most folks put way too much magnification on a rack grade AR. Yes, one of my varmint ARs with a 20" bull barrel has a 6.5-20 on it, but my Match AR, one of my 20" pencil barrel ARs, and all but one of my carbines all have iron sights. The scoped AR in the rack has a 1-4x24mm scope on it, along with back up iron sights. My other 20" pencil barrel AR has a 4x20 Colt scope on it.

I'm not a fan of the P223 series in general, but if you get one, stay with the 1.5-4x20 or the 3x32 scopes. You don't need or want a 3-9x40 or a 4-12x40 scope on a 16" AR-15 carbine. You certainly don't need anymore than 3x or 4 x to hunt deer out to 300 yards. The Burris AR332 is also a good option for an AR-15 carbine:



5) Be aware that putting a scope on an AR changes the cheek weld. The standard rifle stocks and carbine tele-stocks are designed for a nose to carry handle cheek weld with the carry handle mounted sights and rail mounted dot sights. Scopes with large objective bells end up being mounted higher even on a picatinny rail and you have to adjust for that.

With a carry handle mounted scope like the original 4x20 or 3x20 Colt scopes, you end up with your chin almost on the stock to get an adequate cheek weld, but it works.



6) Texas is pretty liberal when it comes to allowable cartridges. As long as it's not a rim fire round, they allow it. That however does not make it a great idea. A .22 Hornet can be used to effectively take deer, but it requires a well placed neck shot. I put the faster but still small .223 Remington in the same category.

Yes, the .223 Rem can be ethically used to humanely take deer, but it requires a very skilled shooter who also has the discipline to pass on shots that are in less than perfect conditions. Those words do not accurately describe 95% of the hunters I see in the field. If anyone reading this thinks he or she is in that other 5%, he or she is probably overestimating his or her ability.
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Old 05-09-2018, 09:34 AM
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You got me there.

However, there are fine points of using a scope too. In order to set the eye relief, you must know what it is and how to set it. In order to compensate for parallax you must know what it is also.

Yes, I agree that a scope can be easier. It's not the magic bullet though. That's my point here.

Even so, I completely agree that there's really no reason to learn iron sights before going to a scope. If you want a scope, just get a scope.

Now, should we go into the differences between a $60 scope and a $600 scope? Or should we save that for after the frustration?
We're on the same page. And there are differences in scopes at different price ranges that come into play, especially for a hunting set up. That $60 Walmart scope may work fine at high noon at the range, but probably not so much half an hour before sunrise... nothing worse than hearing hogs at your feeder but not being able to see them through your scope!
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Old 05-09-2018, 10:00 AM
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I think it's time to spit out the hook on this one, guys.

The ever expanding concentric circles of density has to be deliberate. My cats have a better understanding of basic riflery. They are all jokers, too, but luckily, they haven't mastered my PC... yet.
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Old 05-09-2018, 10:27 AM
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Thank you,

What are your recommendations for scopes for hunting? I do plan to buy a deer rifle soon (30-.06 or .308) and practice alot with a .22lr rifle, then practice with AR-15.

I would like to use the same scope on all rifles.
You could swap scopes between rifles, but it is more of a hassle than it is worth to me, but I don't have super high end scopes either...

I've got an older Nikon Monarch 3 on my .30-06. I don't remember the exact model, but it was $300 on clearance many years ago. It is a 3-9x, but as BB57 mentioned, I never have the magnification up past 4 when hunting here in Texas... My shots have never been more than 100 yards, often closer.

If you go to a big box store like Academy, the Leupold VX2 line is where I would start to look... If you like Nikon, look at the Prostaff line, or Monarch if your budget allows. Those should allow you to see deer near sunrise and sunset... 5 to 10 minutes before sunrise or going right up to sunset can make all the difference in your hunt.
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