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Old 04-30-2018, 11:52 PM
goodoboy goodoboy is offline
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Default When do I add Scope to AR15?

Hello all,

I appreciate all your help so far. I am still learning my AR-15.

My goal is to have good aim from 50 to 300 yards so I can prepare for my first deer hunt in the next 1 year. So my goal is to practice shooting once per month to get practice aim.

I have not made any modifications to AR. I was trying to get better with front sights as much as possible before moving to Scope. I have not had any training with aiming yet.

So yesterday I went to outdoor range and shot with the front sights. I think I need more practice.

When should I upgrade from front sights to scope?

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Last edited by goodoboy; 04-30-2018 at 11:53 PM.
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Old 05-01-2018, 12:04 AM
Ricrock Ricrock is offline
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Wow, the group is all over the target. I first off think the ar15 is too light of a cartridge for white tail in Texas. Minimum would be 300 BO. If you are going to hunt deer in Texas, you should probably consider .308 or AR10 for a confident kill round.

That being said, I know some people think they are great marksmen and can do a kill shot with a 22 caliber bullet, but I don't think that is the way to go.
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Old 05-01-2018, 12:05 AM
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Before doing anything, you need some quality instruction. Your going to end up with bad habits otherwise. Once you have the fundamentals down you can pick whatever sighting system you desire.

"Perfect practice makes perfect"

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Old 05-01-2018, 07:17 AM
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You need some professional instruction. You don't know, what you don't know. Bad habits are very difficult to unlearn.
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Old 05-01-2018, 04:33 PM
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I think you need to practice at 25 and then 50 yards and work at getting much better groups. After you know your iron sights are right on you can consider moving to a scope. The first major need is getting control of the trigger so that you are not moving as you pull the trigger.

When you decide to go with a scope I would go with a Nikon P223 or a Vortex as they both are great scopes.
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Old 05-01-2018, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodoboy View Post

When should I upgrade from front sights to scope?
When your eyes start getting blurry would be a good indicator
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Old 05-01-2018, 04:52 PM
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You'd learn a lot at an Appleseed event.

Project Appleseed | Project Appleseed

Here is the TX schedule of upcoming events.

schedule | Project Appleseed
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Old 05-02-2018, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Electraclyde View Post
You need some professional instruction. You don't know, what you don't know. Bad habits are very difficult to unlearn.
Thank you so much.

Where do I obtain professional instruction from in Houston? I do not mind paying for a class
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Old 05-02-2018, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fyimo View Post
I think you need to practice at 25 and then 50 yards and work at getting much better groups. After you know your iron sights are right on you can consider moving to a scope. The first major need is getting control of the trigger so that you are not moving as you pull the trigger.

When you decide to go with a scope I would go with a Nikon P223 or a Vortex as they both are great scopes.
Thank you,

A few questions here:

1. So all you guys know how to hit accurate with just the front sights at 25 to 100 yards? It seems impossible for me.

2. Should I be standing or siitting down whem practing with front sights from 25 to 50 yards?

3. Should I order a Bipod?


I saw all of guys at range with this on their AR. They are fun to shoot.

Thank you
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Old 05-02-2018, 02:52 PM
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Please clarify what you are using for sights currently. You say front sights. Do you not have a rear sight? Are you using a carry handle or flip up rear sight?

With a little practice / training and a decent rifle, you should be able to put your shots in a paper plate size target from 25 to 100 yards relatively easily.
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Old 05-02-2018, 04:22 PM
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Here's a google list of possible locations for training.houston texas marksmanship traing - Google Search

Here are others which include the National Rifle Association. houston texas marksmanship training nra - Google Search
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Old 05-02-2018, 05:03 PM
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Where in Houston are you? A great place to contact would be The Texas Gun Club. They offer instruction and they have the only indoor 50 yard range in the city. They are in Stafford which is in the Southwest Houston area. You can either buy a membership (which has some advantages) or pay a range fee.

HOME ⋆ Texas Gun Club
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Old 05-02-2018, 05:43 PM
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Before I make any comments about training, there's some stuff we don't know. So, please answer these questions for us:

How long have you had this rifle?
How much shooting experience do you have?
The target you pictured was shot at what distance?
Did you zero your sights? If so, what distance?
When you were shooting, were you resting on the bags? Standing? Kneeling?

When you say, "front sights" are you just talking about the iron sights the gun came with? The commonly accepted term for the sights you have on the gun you pictured is "iron sights."
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Old 05-02-2018, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodoboy View Post
Thank you so much.

Where do I obtain professional instruction from in Houston? I do not mind paying for a class
Join the Army or Marines, they'll pay you to learn.

I don't know what current Army standards are, but
everyone (infantry, cooks, clerks etc) had to qualify
annually with the current version "AR", with most
targets beyond 100 meters.

The longest shot was the 300 meter "E-type" silhouette,
sized to approximate a man's head & torso, from waist
up.

All with the iron sights...and lots of guys shot 40/40.
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Old 05-02-2018, 10:08 PM
goodoboy goodoboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tckdrvr View Post
Please clarify what you are using for sights currently. You say front sights. Do you not have a rear sight? Are you using a carry handle or flip up rear sight?

With a little practice / training and a decent rifle, you should be able to put your shots in a paper plate size target from 25 to 100 yards relatively easily.
Thank you,

This is the exact rifle I have.
M&P(R)15 Sport™ II | Smith & Wesson I have not modified it or add any extras.

I was sitting on this bench shooting 50 yards looking at the front sights at first and I never hit the sheet of paper. For about 20 rounds, I did not even hit the paper.

Then I kept still, breath in and out, calm myself and use the rear sights and started hitting the paper. Keep in mind this is my 3rd time shooting.

I seriously risk I can just hire a good shooter (hunter) to teach me all the basics. So that's what I am looking for now.

Can the AR15 hit the middle at 50 yards with just front and rear sights?
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Old 05-02-2018, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodoboy View Post

Can the AR15 hit the middle at 50 yards with just front and rear sights?
If the sights are zeroed, sure...you'll be able to hit a soda can
at 50 yards, easily--if the sights are zeroed, AND you achieve
proper sight alignment, sight picture, and apply decent trigger
squeeze.

These are fundamentals to shooting any firearm, and not
difficult to learn--but ya gotta learn, and apply them.

Like learning to drive a car, it will seem like a lot of things
to keep track of, in the beginning. With time and repetition
(which can be by dry firing), it will come automatically.
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Old 05-02-2018, 10:24 PM
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Thank you and I will respond below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
Before I make any comments about training, there's some stuff we don't know. So, please answer these questions for us:

How long have you had this rifle? I have had since 8/2017
How much shooting experience do you have? I have been shooting with the AR15 for about 300 rounds so far at 25, 50 and 100 yards. At 25 I am ok, but 50 and 100 I am just not good enough
The target you pictured was shot at what distance? 50 yards
Did you zero your sights? If so, what distance? What does zero your sights means?
When you were shooting, were you resting on the bags?
I was resting on those bags in the picture.

When you say, "front sights" are you just talking about the iron sights the gun came with? Yes The commonly accepted term for the sights you have on the gun you pictured is "iron sights."
I took the Rifle Essential Skill Development – Athena Gun Club here back in September 2017, but the problem is I forget everything I was taught because I stop practicing because of work. We only shot at 17 yards. Now I will practice 2 times a month.

I really need some good training at 25-100 yards.

Should I be accurate with the iron sights at 25-100 yards?
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Old 05-02-2018, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
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Thank you and I will respond below.
Goodo, what's your primary language?
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Old 05-02-2018, 10:59 PM
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Thank you and I will respond below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
Before I make any comments about training, there's some stuff we don't know. So, please answer these questions for us:

How long have you had this rifle? I have had since 8/2017
How much shooting experience do you have? I have been shooting with the AR15 for about 300 rounds so far at 25, 50 and 100 yards. At 25 I am ok, but 50 and 100 I am just not good enough
The target you pictured was shot at what distance? 50 yards
Did you zero your sights? If so, what distance? What does zero your sights means?
When you were shooting, were you resting on the bags?
I was resting on those bags in the picture.

When you say, "front sights" are you just talking about the iron sights the gun came with? Yes The commonly accepted term for the sights you have on the gun you pictured is "iron sights."
I took the Rifle Essential Skill Development – Athena Gun Club here back in September 2017, but the problem is I forget everything I was taught because I stop practicing because of work. We only shot at 17 yards. Now I will practice 2 times a month.

I really need some good training at 25-100 yards.

Should I be accurate with the iron sights at 25-100 yards?
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Old 05-02-2018, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve912 View Post
Join the Army or Marines, they'll pay you to learn.

I don't know what current Army standards are, but
everyone (infantry, cooks, clerks etc) had to qualify
annually with the current version "AR", with most
targets beyond 100 meters.

The longest shot was the 300 meter "E-type" silhouette,
sized to approximate a man's head & torso, from waist
up.

All with the iron sights...and lots of guys shot 40/40.
Hello Steve912,

I wish I had join Army. It's a bit to late for me now, I am 37 years old, married, and full time job now.

WOW, so Army standard is to shoot acurately with iron sights from 100 to 300 yards? That is very impressive. It seems impossible for me.

What does 40/40 mean?
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Old 05-02-2018, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve912 View Post
If the sights are zeroed, sure...you'll be able to hit a soda can
at 50 yards, easily--if the sights are zeroed, AND you achieve
proper sight alignment, sight picture, and apply decent trigger
squeeze.
Thanks Steve912,

What does means by "sights are zeroed" ?
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Old 05-02-2018, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
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Goodo, what's your primary language?
I live in Houston Texas
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Old 05-02-2018, 11:51 PM
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I live in Houston Texas
Objection, Your Honor. Non Responsive . . .
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Old 05-02-2018, 11:52 PM
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This should help...

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Old 05-03-2018, 12:11 AM
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I give up!
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Old 05-03-2018, 09:09 AM
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Objection, Your Honor. Non Responsive . . .
Concur, and recuse myself from further participation.
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Old 05-03-2018, 09:12 AM
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Old 05-03-2018, 09:34 AM
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Thanks. That video made me laugh.
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Old 05-03-2018, 10:10 AM
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Nothing was mentioned of the ammunition,AR's(as with bolt actions) accuracy is affected by ammunition. Trigger control(anticipation) and ammo. ARs' are capable,try letting someone shoot it to compare results.
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Old 05-04-2018, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodoboy View Post
What does means by "sights are zeroed" ?
OK, now we're getting somewhere. This is a basic function of the gun. If you don't know this, you have no hope of hitting your target with any consistency or accuracy.

The sights are adjustable. The rear sight is adjustable for windage (left and right) and the front sight is adjustable for elevation (up and down).

Here's how to do it:
  • Place a target at 50 yards. I normally recommend 100, but 50 will be easier for you.
  • Using a rest, like you showed, fire three shots. Take your time with each shot and make sure the sights are perfectly aligned and in the center of the target for each shot.
  • Walk down and look at the target. Find the center of the group. Note where it is in relation to the center of the target. Look at this pic:

    In this pic the center of the three shot group is 1" low and 2" to the left. So, the rear sight needs to be moved a little to the right and the front sight needs to be moved a little down.
  • Tape over the holes. This way you can tell them from subsequent groups.
  • Go back and fire another three shot group after the sight adjustment.

Repeat these steps until the group is as close to the center as possible. This is how you zero the gun/sights. There's a lot more to shooting, but this will get you started.

For the record, you're not ready to go hunting yet.
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Old 05-04-2018, 01:19 PM
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Goodoboy.......

Guys; anyone here run a mentoring program in the Houston Area??

Goodo..... take this with the good intentions it's given...... you need hands on help..... at best you are learning/teaching yourself bad habits..

If you can afford it ..... my second piece of advice is to get a .22lr bolt action rifle and learn the shooting basics...... at $0.07 a shot... this summer. By Fall you should be ready to move up to your AR.

(IMHO a semi-automatic rifle in .223 is not the best hunting/Deer rifle)

For the record I was an NRA Rifle and pistol instructor and shot on my High School and College Rifle teams.
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Old 05-04-2018, 01:23 PM
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LOL......no one needs 30 rounds of .22 caliber bullets........

........18 .32cal pellets; and gravity, will do the trick!!!!




Oh wait........

............. he's got a Secret Service Protection Detail!!!!!!

Never mind!!!!
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Old 05-04-2018, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodoboy View Post
Thank you,

A few questions here:

1. So all you guys know how to hit accurate with just the front sights at 25 to 100 yards? It seems impossible for me.

2. Should I be standing or siitting down whem practing with front sights from 25 to 50 yards?

3. Should I order a Bipod?
Amazon.com: UTG Tactical OP Bipod, Rubber Feet, Center Height 8.3"-12.7": UTG: Sports & Outdoors I saw all of guys at range with this on their AR. They are fun to shoot.

Thank you
Are you saying you are ONLY using the front sight and not in conjunction with the rear sight?
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Old 05-04-2018, 02:32 PM
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Are you saying you are ONLY using the front sight and not in conjunction with the rear sight?
No, he's just having a terminology issue. He's using the sights and has actually been to a training class.
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Old 05-05-2018, 12:14 AM
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No, he's just having a terminology issue. He's using the sights and has actually been to a training class.
I would not assume that... he stated that he used the front sight and didn't hit paper, then used the rear sight and hit paper. From his questions about zero and statements, I doubt he understands sight alignment and sight picture.
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Old 05-05-2018, 08:48 AM
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I typed "Fundamentals Of Rifle Marksmanship" into my browser.
Lots of info under that heading on the Net, including videos.
Not as good as personal instruction but should help with the basics.

I would practice from standing, sitting and prone. I've shot deer from blinds with the rifle rested on the sill of the firing port, from standing, (several) and one from prone. It was my second deer of the day. The first was taken from standing.

The AR in .223 would not be my first choice for deer, but I think it would work with deer bullets (softpoints), careful shooting at short ranges, with good shot placement.

Many of the deer I've killed were shot at 50 yards. Some were under that. The longest kill was made at just over 200 yards. With the .223
I'd try to get shots no longer than 100 yards.

I plan to shoot deer standing broadside and place the bullet just behind the front leg. I aim for the lung area and sometimes hit the top of
the heart, or the arteries above it. With that shot I have not had to
trail many deer. Most have fallen on the spot.

It's good that you are practicing ahead of the season.
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Old 05-05-2018, 09:14 AM
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Hello all,

I appreciate all your help so far. I am still learning my AR-15.

My goal is to have good aim from 50 to 300 yards so I can prepare for my first deer hunt in the next 1 year. So my goal is to practice shooting once per month to get practice aim.

I have not made any modifications to AR. I was trying to get better with front sights as much as possible before moving to Scope. I have not had any training with aiming yet.

So yesterday I went to outdoor range and shot with the front sights. I think I need more practice.

When should I upgrade from front sights to scope?

Screenshot by Lightshot

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You've received many well-meaning suggestions, but they are all over the place and likely not only confusing but overwhelming.

You might consider getting two or three books on ARs and reading them thoroughly. At least one book should be a very basic one.

Hunting is something else altogether. Best to study cartridge choices before you decide on a .223 / 5.56 AR for deer hunting. This is something worthy of research rather than argument. Good luck in your endeavor.

Last edited by rockquarry; 05-05-2018 at 06:18 PM.
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Old 05-05-2018, 05:42 PM
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I would not assume that... he stated that he used the front sight and didn't hit paper, then used the rear sight and hit paper. From his questions about zero and statements, I doubt he understands sight alignment and sight picture.
You may have a very good point.

There's clearly a lot that the OP doesn't know here. Either that or he's a troll. I hope it's not the latter.
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Old 05-05-2018, 09:35 PM
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You may have a very good point.

There's clearly a lot that the OP doesn't know here. Either that or he's a troll. I hope it's not the latter.
I vote troll. I just went into his statistics and posts. Beginning 9/5/17, every post has been something idiotic about an AR15 that he owns/just purchased.
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Old 05-05-2018, 10:12 PM
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Well, I would say when you feel the need.
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Old 05-05-2018, 11:31 PM
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I vote troll. I just went into his statistics and posts. Beginning 9/5/17, every post has been something idiotic about an AR15 that he owns/just purchased.
Y'all do realize that English clearly is not his/her first language, right?
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Old 05-06-2018, 02:11 AM
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Y'all do realize that English clearly is not his/her first language, right?
Yeah, he speaks Houston.
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Old 05-06-2018, 07:17 AM
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Yeah, he speaks Houston.
That's not Houston . . .
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Old 05-06-2018, 09:15 AM
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Yeah, he speaks Houston.
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Old 05-06-2018, 01:19 PM
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OK, now we're getting somewhere. This is a basic function of the gun. If you don't know this, you have no hope of hitting your target with any consistency or accuracy.

The sights are adjustable. The rear sight is adjustable for windage (left and right) and the front sight is adjustable for elevation (up and down).

Here's how to do it:
  • Place a target at 50 yards. I normally recommend 100, but 50 will be easier for you.
  • Using a rest, like you showed, fire three shots. Take your time with each shot and make sure the sights are perfectly aligned and in the center of the target for each shot.
  • Walk down and look at the target. Find the center of the group. Note where it is in relation to the center of the target. Look at this pic:

    In this pic the center of the three shot group is 1" low and 2" to the left. So, the rear sight needs to be moved a little to the right and the front sight needs to be moved a little down.
  • Tape over the holes. This way you can tell them from subsequent groups.
  • Go back and fire another three shot group after the sight adjustment.

Repeat these steps until the group is as close to the center as possible. This is how you zero the gun/sights. There's a lot more to shooting, but this will get you started.

For the record, you're not ready to go hunting yet.
Thank you for response and clear explanation in and helping me.

Yess, I am not ready for hunting at all. I want to get better at shooting.

Here is my plan to prepare for hunting hopefully by November.

Please everyone let me know if agree with my plan. I'm just starting out so I need help.


1. First get my AR iron sights and rear site zero sighted for 50 yards. There is instructors at American Shooting range in Houston that charge $15 for this.

After this should I get a scope on the rfile?

2. Hire instructor at American Shooting range to teach me how to accurately shoot up 100 yards or higher. They charge like $100 per hour.

Will the instructor required me to shoot with scope or iron sights? If so, I better get a scope on this AR.

I will purchase a Adjustable Folding Bipod so I get comfortable with my position for everyshot. I want have sand back in the deer blind

3. Practice every Saturday 50 to 200 yards til to make sure I am accurate. I will practice just how I plan to sit in the deer/hog blind.

4. Once I get better and comfortable and consistently accurate with ar15 I will purcahse a .308 or 270 or 30-.06 scope rifle and practice til Novemebr. I will not hunt with ar15 for the reasons everyone stated above. I rather use higher caliber to ensure high impact shot.

Thank you all so much.

Please let me know if my plan make sense and offer your comments please.
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Old 05-06-2018, 01:27 PM
goodoboy goodoboy is offline
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Thank you all for the help and support. Please help me with my plan above. No I'm not a troll. I just don't know as much you all, cause I haven't been shooting all my life. Some of my questions are simple, but I don't know. Lol

Check my plan above and let me know what you think.
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Old 05-06-2018, 02:03 PM
cyphertext cyphertext is offline
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Thank you for response and clear explanation in and helping me.

Yess, I am not ready for hunting at all. I want to get better at shooting.

Here is my plan to prepare for hunting hopefully by November.

Please everyone let me know if agree with my plan. I'm just starting out so I need help.


1. First get my AR iron sights and rear site zero sighted for 50 yards. There is instructors at American Shooting range in Houston that charge $15 for this.

After this should I get a scope on the rfile?
Do not pay someone else to zero your rifle. Learn to do it yourself.

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Originally Posted by goodoboy View Post
2. Hire instructor at American Shooting range to teach me how to accurately shoot up 100 yards or higher. They charge like $100 per hour.

Will the instructor required me to shoot with scope or iron sights? If so, I better get a scope on this AR.
You do need an instructor. If I were teaching you to shoot, you would start with a .22lr at 25 yards. If you plan to hunt using a scope, get a scope and learn to shoot with it. Many will disagree with me here, but if you aren't going to use iron sights, then don't worry about mastering them. Some of my hunting rifles don't even have iron sights on them.

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Originally Posted by goodoboy View Post
I will purchase a Adjustable Folding Bipod so I get comfortable with my position for everyshot. I want have sand back in the deer blind
Waste of money in my opinion... If shooting from a blind, just steady the gun on the frame of the blind. If shooting from the ground, learn shooting from field positions (sitting, kneeling, and prone), with use of a sling and shooting sticks to help stabilize.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goodoboy View Post
3. Practice every Saturday 50 to 200 yards til to make sure I am accurate. I will practice just how I plan to sit in the deer/hog blind.
Next to impossible to practice from the bench the same as shooting from a blind. Focus on basics, (sight alignment, sight picture, breath control, trigger control) while bench shooting.

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Originally Posted by goodoboy View Post
4. Once I get better and comfortable and consistently accurate with ar15 I will purcahse a .308 or 270 or 30-.06 scope rifle and practice til Novemebr. I will not hunt with ar15 for the reasons everyone stated above. I rather use higher caliber to ensure high impact shot.
I wouldn't worry about equipment at this point. Learn to shoot first. You are a long way from being ready to go hunt.
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Old 05-06-2018, 02:41 PM
goodoboy goodoboy is offline
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Do not pay someone else to zero your rifle. Learn to do it yourself.



You do need an instructor. If I were teaching you to shoot, you would start with a .22lr at 25 yards. If you plan to hunt using a scope, get a scope and learn to shoot with it. Many will disagree with me here, but if you aren't going to use iron sights, then don't worry about mastering them. Some of my hunting rifles don't even have iron sights on them.



Waste of money in my opinion... If shooting from a blind, just steady the gun on the frame of the blind. If shooting from the ground, learn shooting from field positions (sitting, kneeling, and prone), with use of a sling and shooting sticks to help stabilize.


Next to impossible to practice from the bench the same as shooting from a blind. Focus on basics, (sight alignment, sight picture, breath control, trigger control) while bench shooting.


I wouldn't worry about equipment at this point. Learn to shoot first. You are a long way from being ready to go hunt.
Thank you cyphertext for your comments.

Questions

1. I agree with getting a scope now, I will definetly be hunting with a scope. Do I need to zero the front iron sights before buying a scope and installing it on AR? Or when I get scope I will need to zero it as well?

2. Should I juse get a scope on AR and go shoot it and see how well I do? If I'm not accurate, hire an instructor.

Appreciate the comments
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Old 05-06-2018, 02:55 PM
cyphertext cyphertext is offline
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Thank you cyphertext for your comments.

Questions

1. I agree with getting a scope now, I will definetly be hunting with a scope. Do I need to zero the front iron sights before buying a scope and installing it on AR? Or when I get scope I will need to zero it as well?
If you are going to use a scope, don't worry about the zeroing the irons. You will however, need to zero the scope. If you have it mounted by the store you purchase it from, the can bore sight it for you... this means that it will be close enough for you to hit on paper, but you will need to do the final adjustments for a true zero.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goodoboy View Post
2. Should I juse get a scope on AR and go shoot it and see how well I do? If I'm not accurate, hire an instructor.

Appreciate the comments
Mount the scope on your AR. You would benefit from having an instructor to help you with zeroing your scope and teaching you the basics. You will still need to learn sight picture, proper breathing, and proper trigger control. The scope will eliminate the sight alignment issues.
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Old 05-06-2018, 03:55 PM
goodoboy goodoboy is offline
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If you are going to use a scope, don't worry about the zeroing the irons. You will however, need to zero the scope. If you have it mounted by the store you purchase it from, the can bore sight it for you... this means that it will be close enough for you to hit on paper, but you will need to do the final adjustments for a true zero.

Mount the scope on your AR. You would benefit from having an instructor to help you with zeroing your scope and teaching you the basics. You will still need to learn sight picture, proper breathing, and proper trigger control. The scope will eliminate the sight alignment issues.
Thank you cyphertext,

Yes, I will be using a scope only for hunting.

Ok in will go to Academy and get the P233 3x9 scope and let them mount it on AR. And ask them to Bore . I will have to learn how to adjust the P223 scope.

Then I will hire an instructor to teach me how to zero scope, proper breathing, and trigger control. Then I just practice from there on.

How do you know what type of scope to get?

Last edited by goodoboy; 05-06-2018 at 03:56 PM.
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