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Old 06-06-2018, 03:59 PM
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Default M&P-15 accuracy?

What kind of accuracy should I expect from an M&P-15 at 100 yards? Mine isn't impressing me much. Its got a Bushnell 1-4X AR Scope on it. I admit the rectile in this scope takes a bit of getting used to.
Ammo is American Eagle 55gr FMJ and IMI 62 gr. Green Tip. Maybe its the ammo or maybe its just me, but I'm only getting about 4" groups off the bench at 100 yards.

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Old 06-06-2018, 04:07 PM
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Depends on the ammunition you are using and iron sights or scope. With quality ammo and a scope all of mine will do 2-3 inch or better groups,none get over 4 with sights and cheap stuff.
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Old 06-06-2018, 04:10 PM
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Ok, I edited the OP with a bit more info.
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Old 06-06-2018, 04:48 PM
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Also depends if youíre shooting off a bag, rest, or unsupported. Unsupported, 4Ē isnít that bad.
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Old 06-06-2018, 06:49 PM
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FWIW-Doubt if it's the ammo- In my experience AE ammo will stay under an inch in a properly benchrested bolt gun.
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Old 06-06-2018, 07:31 PM
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The scope you are using is the first problem. I love bushnell scopes, dependable, well worth the money, but the one you are using has a large dot, vs a fine reticle. I had tried using a Nikon 300P , with BDC, the glass is clear, movement is consistent and repeatable, but the reticle is too thick for any precision work. It is quick for an offhand shot at 50-100 yards on a 14 X18 target, but very difficult to shoot little groups. I do not know your finances, but a bushnell banner 3X 9 X 40 with a duplex, will tighten up your groups and can be had for $50 on gun broker used, has bdc reticle, auction going now. You need to be able to see your target clearly to be able to repeatedly put bullet after bullet into the "same Hole". Scope is most important, than the trigger, than the ammo, but at a short distance of 100 yards most any good ammo will do. After you change the scope, you may want to try different ammo. Also make sure that the bore is CLEAN, too often a dirty bore may appear clean to the eye, still needs cleaning. A copper cleaner will make sure you have it clean. Be Safe,
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Old 06-07-2018, 01:33 AM
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Agreed on all of the above. With your optics and ammo combo 4moa isnt bad at all.
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Old 06-07-2018, 07:28 AM
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I have tested my M&P 15 OR out to 300 yards. With quality ammo, front rest and a 3-9x scope it will shoot sub MOA groups.
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Old 06-07-2018, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grayfox View Post
I admit the rectile in this scope takes a bit of getting used to.
Sounds like rectile dysfunction. They make medicine for that...

Seriously, though -- that level of accuracy is about what can be expected with that type of reticle. I see similar on a lot of AR optics these days, and they are fine for the purpose intended -- fast, up-close shooting -- but far from ideal for long range accuracy.
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Old 06-07-2018, 08:50 AM
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Yeah, this optic is sorta a cross between a red dot and a scope. But I don't think it works all that well as either.
I intended for this rifle to be used at short to medium range. I admit to being a bit of an accuracy nut. I guess I should try a different scope.
Thanks.
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Old 06-08-2018, 10:46 AM
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Took my new Sport ll OR to the range for the 3rd time yesterday. 4x Tasco scope and inexpensive Russian ammo; shot well w/ one group at less than 3/4" at 50 yds. W/ an upgraded trigger (probably the Ruger)and better ammo, should be looking at 1 MOA.
Very happy w/ the rifle thus far, particularly for the cost.
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Old 06-08-2018, 11:42 AM
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If you really want to see how accurate your Mp 15 is 2 things should be done. First get some decent ammo like FGMM or Black Hills. 2nd ditch the 4X scope and get a decent scope. I'd recommend at least a 3-9X40. Leupold, Nikon or Weaver all make decent fairly inexpensive scopes. You should be able to get 1.5-2 moa 5 shot groups if you do you part. I have a 4-16X 0n my 516. Last thing you might consider is installing a Geissele trigger. It made a big difference in my 100 yard groups. Groups range ~ 1 moa sometimes better.
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Old 06-08-2018, 12:27 PM
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I have several boxes of good ammo; was just burning thru some steel cased shells that wouldn't run in my son's DPMS. The Sport ll didn't complain at all.
Trigger next then a scope; probably a 2-7 power tactical size, don't want/need a lot of size or magnification. Thanks for your input.
If/when I get into long distance, I'll probably build my next AR 15 w/ a 20" barrel. No place to shoot in the local area over 100 yds.
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Old 06-08-2018, 02:06 PM
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I shoot off a bag and use the Nikon P223 3x9x40.
The rifle is an M&P 15 Sport, 1/8, 5R rifling.
With handloads it is sub MOA.
So set up properly these rifles can be very accurate.
Jim
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Old 06-08-2018, 08:08 PM
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I only know what my Sport can do. I've shot 8" groups at 200 yards standing up with no support using a red dot sight with mine. It shoots very accurate for the type of rifle it is IMO. I haven't ever shot it off a rest. I guess I didn't buy it for that kind of shooting. If I want to shoot from a rest I'll get out a bolt action rifle. I'm not saying it's bad or wrong or anything like that to shoot for accuracy. All I'm saying is I haven't really done it. But IMO shooting groups like I shot repeatedly at 200 yards indicates a rifle that will shoot small groups from a rest with the right ammo. BTW I was probably using American Eagle or PMC ammo. I was basically just plinking. I use Black Hills ammo for shooting small groups. I have a .223 bolt action rifle and it will shoot Black Hills ammo exceptionally well compared to plinking ammo. I don't buy steel cased ammo for my .223/5.56's. I gather up the brass and sell it and I end up spending about the same to shoot brass cased ammo.
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Old 06-08-2018, 09:11 PM
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I remember mine doing 2-3 moa, using an ACOG 4x with green tip.
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Old 06-09-2018, 09:31 AM
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I bought this rifle for close to medium range use. Actually, I bought it just to have one and piss off the antis. I'm really not a big fan of the AR.
However, I do like my rifles to be accurate or at least accurate enough for the intended purpose. So I guess this one will fit what I bought it for. I would like to see just how accurate it can be.
I think my mistake was in the choice of scope. Like I said that reticle just wasn't designed for precision shooting. I do have several scopes on hand that I could try. But they're all 1" tubes and the current mount is 30mm. I haven't had much luck finding proper 1" rings for an AR locally that weren't very expensive. So I'll probably have to order some on-line. Understand that I just want to see what the rifle is capable of and the scope may not stay on it.
Honestly, for many years now my choice in a home defense rifle has been the M1 Carbine. I still like it in that role and don't know if the AR will replace it. If I want to reach out there, well that what the M1As are for.
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Old 06-09-2018, 05:32 PM
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I like your thinking on your AR expectations. Im sure you will figure it out. I was not an AR fan until I needed one for IDPA 3 gun. Since then I have a great respect for what it can do. I have been pleasantly surprised at how well it shoots.
Best of luck.
Jim
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Old 06-09-2018, 07:13 PM
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People don't consider these much anymore, but a good quality 1" tube 4x scope with a plain, non-illuminated duplex reticle works quite well to at least 200 yards. Scopes without specialty features that few really need usually have very good resale value should you decide on something else later on, but it's hard to outgrow a quality basic scope.
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Old 06-09-2018, 09:32 PM
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I sighted in my M&P 15 Sport at 100 yds with a Vortex Strikefire II with Red/Green dot. The last four shots are in the center of the target after several adjustments. This was done from a sand bag rest.

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Old 06-10-2018, 02:05 PM
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First 2 things I did was free float the barrel and changed the trigger out those 2 changes will make a difference and optics do also (you cant hit well if you can't see what you are shooting at well also). Mine has a leupold AR 1.5-4X.
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Old 06-10-2018, 10:06 PM
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I'm going to go at this a little differently than other posters have. Rather than going out and buying a new scope, try different brands and weights of ammo first. All barrels have their likes and dislikes as to ammo. Yours just may not like what you have shot. As an example, My Sport II shoots better with a 52gr bullet than it does a 55gr.
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Old 06-10-2018, 11:48 PM
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Default Ditch the green tip!

Get some better glass also. The AE ammo runs well in some guns, others not so much. I have three S&W M&P rifles. A performance center 20' heavy barreled gun M&P 15. A standard M&P 15, and more recently a M&P AR-10.


All three shoot very well but they like good ammo. And every rifle out there will benefit from quality glass.
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Old 06-11-2018, 12:22 AM
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Quote:
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I'm going to go at this a little differently than other posters have. Rather than going out and buying a new scope, try different brands and weights of ammo first.
You can have the most accurate ammo for your gun, but will not be able to shoot small groups if you cannot see the X on the target. Not sayin that you have to put out 1000$, but a 3X9X40 with a fine duplex will give you smaller groups than any red dot or thick reticles. Be Safe,
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Old 06-11-2018, 01:49 PM
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The target pictured below was 10 rounds fired at a measured 65 yards using cheap ammo. The rifle is equipped with a Nikon P223 3x scope and a Timney 3 pound trigger. I don't always shoot this well which is why I saved the target but I think it does a good job of showing what the rifle is capable of. The rifle was rested over the top of a sawhorse with my jacket over the top for padding.
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Old 06-11-2018, 07:18 PM
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I measured your group 1sailor. Here it is:


For people taking their time, this is better than average for an AR that is well maintained. I see targets measuring just under 1MOA to 1.5MOA all the time.

Here is one of mine at 50 yards using Wolf Gold ammo:
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Old 06-11-2018, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
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The scope you are using is the first problem. I love bushnell scopes, dependable, well worth the money, but the one you are using has a large dot, vs a fine reticle.
I disagree. Yes, the OP's scope is a lower end scope and has a reticle designed for CQB, but it can be used precisely.

I can't find the size of that dot, but let's assume it's a 2MOA dot because that's pretty common. That seems like a lot and it is, but there is a way to work with that size of a dot.

A 2MOA dot will cover 2" at 100 yards. The prevailing thought here is that a dot that size will move over those 2" and thus cause a large group. This need not be the case.

Use the edge of the dot. Turn down the brightness so that the dot is in very crisp focus. Then put the edge of the dot on the intended target. This is a very small aiming point and can be used to be very consistent shot to shot.

Here is a target I shot with a 2MOA red dot at 50 yards:


Granted, it's only a three shot group, but it's still under 1MOA and I used a 2MOA red dot sight to do it.
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Old 06-12-2018, 07:40 AM
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My S&W M&P 15 OR is very accurate.

My only mods are a free float handguard & trigger.



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Old 06-12-2018, 07:37 PM
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What Kodiadco said and a good scope. Found a deal on a Rise trigger 3lb. would suggest 4lb. Love it but need to be careful with it.
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Old 06-12-2018, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
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I disagree. Yes, the OP's scope is a lower end scope and has a reticle designed for CQB, but it can be used precisely.
Use the edge of the dot. Turn down the brightness so that the dot is in very crisp focus. Then put the edge of the dot on the intended target. This is a very small aiming point and can be used to be very consistent shot to shot.
Granted, it's only a three shot group, but it's still under 1MOA and I used a 2MOA red dot sight to do it.
Yes and it is only 50 yards, not 100. I agree that you can use a very crisp red dot for precision at close ( 50 yds ) range. If your eyes are capable, and you have a crisp red/green dot you may be able to get 1 moa @ 100, but it would be difficult, while a finer crosshair, increased magnification will allow you to be more precise quicker. At 100 I can not see a sharp delineation from the red dot borders as I can see with fine crosshairs. Can you shoot one at 100 yards and post it? Be Safe,
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Old 06-12-2018, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
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I only know what my Sport can do. I've shot 8" groups at 200 yards standing up with no support using a red dot sight with mine. i I haven't ever shot it off a rest. I guess I didn't buy it for that kind of shooting. shot repeatedly at 200 yards indicates a rifle that will shoot small groups from a rest with the right ammo. I was basically just plinking.
4" @ 100 ? I do not believe that you can determine the accuracy off hand at 200 yards. Shoot off a steady rest, good scope, @ 100, 200, 300, etc to determine the accuracy of the rifle. Your skill at 200 is great, I know many who could not maintain 8" @ 100 off hand, but it still does not tell you how accurate the gun is. Be Safe,
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Old 06-13-2018, 03:01 AM
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Quote:
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4" @ 100 ? I do not believe that you can determine the accuracy off hand at 200 yards. Shoot off a steady rest, good scope, @ 100, 200, 300, etc to determine the accuracy of the rifle. Your skill at 200 is great, I know many who could not maintain 8" @ 100 off hand, but it still does not tell you how accurate the gun is. Be Safe,
That isn't the only distance I've shot the rifle. But it does indicate the capability of the rifle. 4" at 100 yards is not that great and neither is 8" at 200 yards. But shooting that consistently at that distance indicates a certain level of accuracy. No it doesn't determine absolute accuracy. To be honest I never bought the rifle for that kind of shooting. I have scopes I could mount on it but it's red dot only for me. If I want to shoot for accuracy I'll use a bolt action rifle. I doubt I'll ever know the full potential of the rifle's accuracy. I do know it is considerably more accurate than my other AR was. And it was no cheap rifle.

I just thought it would indicate a level of potential accuracy to tell what I did with the rifle. I could have talked about shooting individual blades of tall grass at 30 yards which I've also done. I know an accurate rifle when I shoot one and for me to shoot the 200 yard groups I was getting it takes an accurate rifle.

Shooting off hand requires different things from a rifle like better balance. Holding steady with a rest doesn't require nearly as much balance in the rifle. It also has to have a good enough trigger that it breaks consistently which this rifle does have. I grew up with heavy triggers. I learned to shoot them accurately. I think of the AR as a CQB rifle which requires a certain level of accuracy and it needs to be able to shoot that way without a rest. There are other types of rifles than rifles the need to be shot from a rest. And the AR is one of them IMO. There's more to it than just off a rest accuracy.

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Old 06-13-2018, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C J View Post
4" at 100 yards is not that great and neither is 8" at 200 yards. But shooting that consistently at that distance indicates a certain level of accuracy. No it doesn't determine absolute accuracy.
I agree with what you are saying, but you have a certain level of skill. Anyone who wants to know what the accuracy of the firearm, should shoot it off a rest, good optics, good trigger, best ammo- Just so you know what it is capable of. Back when turkey shoots had live turkeys, I watched a Jar Head take 3 birds in 4 shots( head shot ) @ 100 yds. He frequently shot and still does shoot the Win 70 in 308. I used to spend enough money to buy a turkey, because I had to compete against him. I did get turkey since he is my brother and he and my father ( Jar head ) taught me to shoot. I have seen too many people trying to zero scopes a 100 yards, off hand and just wasted ammo. The scopes were not even bore sited. Be Safe,
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  #34  
Old 06-13-2018, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vipermd View Post
Can you shoot one at 100 yards and post it? Be Safe,
I can, but I don't have a red dot mounted at the moment. However, I do have a 200 yard, 5 shot group, I shot using back up iron sights (BUIS) off a rest. Will this do?



Not quite as good as the other target, but still <1MOA while using Wolf Gold ammo. Sure, this isn't with a red dot, but it's the same principle.

Please understand, I completely agree with you that a scope is the right way to go for precision shooting. Someone said that a red dot cannot be used for precision shooting and that's false. Is it the best choice? No, but you can get pretty precise with it.

The red dot is a superior choice for 100 yards and closer when speed is necessary. Also, what is the purpose of said gun? If self-defense is your goal, then a 2MOA gun is fine. In fact the MIL-SPEC for the M4 is 5 inches at 100 yards. If any of us owned a gun with that poor of an accuracy we'd be changing something.

But self-defense doesn't require super precision. Check this out:



I shot this target with a Tavor X95 (not known for it's accuracy). Here we see a 3.7MOA group shot at 100 yards. Most would not be happy with this, but I was ecstatic. You see this was shot while standing, starting from the ready position, timed at 5 seconds, one shot at a time. I was using an ACOG 3x scope. I managed to get each shot off under 3 seconds. The blue square is 6" wide. This means that all of these shots are kill shots. So, yeah, huge group, but well within the limits of what the gun was made to do.

Each shooter must decide what they want from their gun. If ultimate precision is the goal, get a good scope (hint: Bushnel ain't it). If speed and defense is the goal, a good red dot is probably the best choice. If you're like me and want a mix, the 3x ACOG is hard to beat.
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  #35  
Old 06-15-2018, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vipermd View Post
I agree with what you are saying, but you have a certain level of skill. Anyone who wants to know what the accuracy of the firearm, should shoot it off a rest, good optics, good trigger, best ammo- Just so you know what it is capable of. Back when turkey shoots had live turkeys, I watched a Jar Head take 3 birds in 4 shots( head shot ) @ 100 yds. He frequently shot and still does shoot the Win 70 in 308. I used to spend enough money to buy a turkey, because I had to compete against him. I did get turkey since he is my brother and he and my father ( Jar head ) taught me to shoot. I have seen too many people trying to zero scopes a 100 yards, off hand and just wasted ammo. The scopes were not even bore sited. Be Safe,
I sighted my Sport using a rest. I know why a person needs to use a rest sometimes. It's pointless trying to zero shooting off hand IMO.

But let me give you an example of what I mean about a rifle needing to be made a certain way to shoot off hand. I have a Savage 12 LRPV in .223. It will shoot 5" groups all day at 500 yards off a rest. It's a varmint rifle though. It weighs 11 pounds without the scope and it's all barrel weight pretty much. So the weight is all up front. It has a 26" barrel. If I tried to shoot that rifle off hand I'd be lucky to hit a gallon jug at 20 yards with it. It's uncontrollable from the shoulder at least for me because of a back injury and a neck injury. I just don't have the strength to shoot a gun like that off hand. Some people add stuff to their AR's so that they weigh just as much but they are better balanced since the weight is usually added on the rails.

The Sport handles very well shooting off hand. Yes I can shoot pretty well but others are much better. I saw a 2" group using iron sights posted here. It was off a rest but still, that's good shooting. The point is that the rifle is capable of shooting that well off hand. Rifles that shoot well off a rest aren't always good for shooting off hand. I have a perfect example of that in that Savage 12.
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Old 07-01-2018, 08:36 PM
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With the junk the military issued, 4" MOA was great at 100 yards! Of course we had to qualify at 300 meters with iron sights! We learned to run the AR-15 Wet to keep it going.
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Old 07-07-2018, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbo728 View Post
I shoot off a bag and use the Nikon P223 3x9x40.
The rifle is an M&P 15 Sport, 1/8, 5R rifling.
With handloads it is sub MOA.
So set up properly these rifles can be very accurate.
Jim
About to reload for mine what load are you using and have you found which wt. bullets it prefers I have same barrel you do.
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Old 07-15-2018, 03:07 AM
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I have the old chrome lined mil-spec 16” barrel MOE from 2011. I mounted a Trijicon MRO red dot. At 25 yards I can put one hole in the target with 3 rounds. At 100 yards, I keep a 1.5” group without counting the fliers which I determine is my part. If I’m using my reloads, I’m using M193 NATO; between the two I don’t see a difference in accuracy.
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Old 08-04-2018, 12:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Popeye77 View Post
About to reload for mine what load are you using and have you found which wt. bullets it prefers I have same barrel you do.
The load info is written on the target in post 14 of this thread but here it is again. Sorry for the delayed response.
Jim
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Old 08-22-2018, 01:30 PM
pineoak pineoak is offline
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I've gotten 2.5-3.2" for 5 shot groups at 100 yards shooting 55gr American Eagle using a ridiculously overpriced scope for an AR (I'm a bolt gun shooter primarily).
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Old 08-23-2018, 04:40 PM
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I find the three AR-15's I have dependent on the ammo to dictate accuracy. I have a S&W AR 15 Sport II and two PSA AR -15's. The PSA AR's have a 1/7 inch twist barrel where the S&W has a 1/9 inch twist. Mine seem to be in the 2 MOA at 100 yards.
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Old 08-23-2018, 05:23 PM
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I know this is an older thread, but will share my experience. Straight out of the box, iron sights, standing un supported at 100 yards, consistent 4" groups. I don't know about anyone else, but I was very satisfied. Especially, considering my RRA that cost almost 3 times what the Smith did gets 2" groups with a red dot.
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  #43  
Old 09-04-2018, 10:40 PM
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A deer's heart is about 5 inches so...4 inch groups are great, IMO.
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