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  #51  
Old 06-26-2018, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by WR Moore View Post
The light varmint bullets in .223/5.56 mm (40-50 gr) that do so well in limiting penetration also present problems when dealing with attackers who are on the large side. Also if you have to shoot through chance obstacles like an arm. Most of those who use the cartridge seriously have gone up in bullet weight and work hard on not missing. We're talking a range of feet generally.
I just don't agree. Tests show more than enough tissue damage and penetration.


See what a varmint round does through denim, ribs and to a pork shoulder behind both.


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While I agree that the handgun is the most versatile choice, I've done some handgun drills with a carbine. Most folks will do those drills faster and with better shot placement with the carbine. HOWEVER, at really close range the handgun is a better choice.
This, is really what it comes down to. Misses will penetrate walls. Though I will say, typical handgun rounds, even HP rounds are going to do a lot more of that then a 40gr Varmint round in a 223/5/56 carbine. What can yu make those hits with. Versatility of the handgun, only comes into play for most, imho, us when clearing a home. But, if you're holing up in a back room, as OP's plan, it comes down to more, what can you guarantee you can make more than one hit on the bad guy(s).
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Old 06-26-2018, 03:10 PM
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DO NOT USE BIRDSHOT IN YOUR SELF DEFENSE SHOTGUN! IT HAS POOR TERMINAL PERFORMANCE AGAINST HUMANS!
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Old 06-26-2018, 04:20 PM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
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Thank you for the details. I want to be sure I thourghly understand barrier terminology so I can make good decisions and teach my family. I wasn't raised with guns.

Just to be sure I understand.

Low Barrier penetration means the bullet has low chance of exiting the body, wood, limb, wall, etc?

What's is non barriers?
Non-barrier means there's no obstacle between the gun muzzle and the target.

Low barrier penetration means the bullet doesn't penetrate the listed barriers well AND STILL PERFORM AS DESIGNED. Does not mean won't go through interior walls and still have enough energy to cause serious bodily injury. The human body is not a barrier.

cybermgk-scientific tests (which a pork shoulder isn't) are used to allow direct performance comparisons between different projectiles. They are not predictive of real world performance. The real world has not been impressed with the performance of the light bullets on extra large economy size felons. Especially when the bullets hit limbs of the body enroute to the torso.

I don't recall what .223 round Edmundo Mirales got shot in the left forearm with, but it didn't reach the torso. Did do horrendous damage to his arm but he still killed Platt & Mattix in the infamous FBI Miami gunfight.

Hasn't been real kind to the idea of birdshot loaded shotgun as a general practice either.

Last edited by WR Moore; 06-26-2018 at 04:23 PM.
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Old 06-27-2018, 12:27 AM
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I really thank everyone for the help.

Recall my initial concern was what happen if I miss the intruder(s) with a AR15 223/556 ammo and what the chance of hitting my neighbor home.

To answer my own question, the real question is what is my backstop when I shoot the intruder and where in the house will I be located.

After alot reading, watching youtube videos, thinking, and reviewing my backstop and home defense strategy, using my AR and my safe zone the bullet will need to penetrate 8 sheetrock walls and maybe my brick exterior of my home before exiting to the neighbor property about 20 yards away and maybe hitting his truck or car.

From watching this video
and reading this wall test .223 Drywall Penetration: Results, and reviewing my safe zone position and the back stops, I feel that the Fiocchi 40-grain VMax is the only ammo I will be using in my SW M&P Sport II. Both reference show the bullet is fragmented in small metal after leaving the 6 wall.

Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo I felt that this website was way too complicated to read and far too many options and too much fancy words for the common person to understand. All I want to know if which bullets will less likely penetrate "all" sheetrock and exit the house through a window or door and harm someone.

Regarding if Fiocchi 40-grain VMax is enough penetrate to reach vital organs,..., I will shoot more then once.

Regarding shotgun, yes I am getting a shotgun as well. Maybe #4 buckshot. I have to do the same research with the shotgun and 9mm. I think the best solution is to identify where in your home is the best place to shoot with the AR or handgun regardless of ammo test and don't chase down the intruder, let them come to you.

My next step is to find the best metal plate to behind the wall of my safe zone just to be extra sure if I miss the bullet penetrate through the metal plate (hidden behind a picture frame). Protecting my neighbors is just that important to me. Maybe after this I will move up to 55gr or 60gr for more of a lethal shot, but for now until I find metal plate that can absorb the bullet, I'm sticking with Fiocchi 40-grain VMax

I appreciate any comments.

Last edited by goodoboy; 06-27-2018 at 12:42 AM.
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Old 06-27-2018, 01:47 AM
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Posted this before, but I think it's good to repost. More of a real word type of test. Not the scientific tests that a lot of people like to cite. A real house was used.

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Old 06-27-2018, 07:40 AM
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As someone posted above everyone here will have a different opinion.... some will have 2 or 3

That said all I can add are my choices....................

A full size S&W M&P 9mm with a light. 17+1
A Mossburg 510 youth model 20 gauge w/ #4 buckshot. 3+1 plus 5 more on the stock..... 3 buck & 2 slugs. Anyone in the family can use this gun.

Whatever I'm carrying that day.... generally a 3913 or 6906 9mm

If I've got time or have an extended engagement ..... both of which are unlikely; a Beretta CX4 9mm pistol caliber carbine...... shorter (29" OAL) and lighter than an AR; 15-30 round factory magazines ...... with a red dot and light.....

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Old 06-27-2018, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Westie1 View Post
Posted this before, but I think it's good to repost. More of a real word type of test. Not the scientific tests that a lot of people like to cite. A real house was used.

What's Best for Home Defense: AR, AK, or Pistol? - YouTube
Thank you for posting this it was very informational.

From the video, I was surprised to see the bullets (ball ammo and not the recommended soft tip for home defense) did not exit the house.

Then at the end of the video he shows the house walls have wood on both sides of the sheetrock. The home is a old house and NOT a newer home where there is NOT wood between the sheet rock. So this video is kind of basis in my opinion. But still good information.

They should did this video again in a newer home WITHOUT wood between the sheet rock.

I have to stick with 40gr for now until proven otherwise and making sure 1) I don't miss 2) if I miss the bullet will have to go through about 6 walls before the bullet degrades and NOT leave the worst case scenario, a window in my home, and travel to the neighbor house and harm them through their window. My hope is that if that happens, the bullet would have fragmented in smaller sizes that it will tumble down somewhere by the time it leaves my window

In my opinion, the correct ammo for ar15 home defense is not the bullet, it's what behind and where will the bullet go if you miss. The same case for the 9mm.

I would like to be debated from anyone who think otherwise, I could be wrong. But from what i see on YouTube if you use 55 gr or higher you better sure if you miss there is enough wall to stop that bullet from traveling out your home.

This is why, in my humble opinion, a shotgun is much better for home defense for the typical person , I am now researching what ammo for a 12 gauge mossberg 18 will not penetrate multiple walls if I miss from about 5-8 yards. So far my, I see 7.5 birdshot will work. I need to see now if #4 buckshot will travel through multiple walls.

In other words, if someone ask me what to use for home defense, from my current knowledge and simplicity, use a shotgun. What ammo with shotgun, depends on your living arrangement and how many walls if you miss. Get birdshot ammo.
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Old 06-27-2018, 10:40 AM
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This is why, in my humble opinion, a shotgun is much better for home defense for the typical person , I am now researching what ammo for a 12 gauge mossberg 18 will not penetrate multiple walls if I miss from about 5-8 yards. So far my, I see 7.5 birdshot will work. I need to see now if #4 buckshot will travel through multiple walls.

In other words, if someone ask me what to use for home defense, from my current knowledge and simplicity, use a shotgun. What ammo with shotgun, depends on your living arrangement and how many walls if you miss. Get birdshot ammo.
Problem is, if you follow your own advice, your humble opinion is likely to get you killed... and your current knowledge is at a very low level.

Anything that is going to penetrate deep enough to hit vitals is going to go through sheetrock... and multiple pieces. You have to hit vitals to stop a threat.

Watch this video and tell me that a shotgun with birdshot is a good idea... You can fast forward to about the 1:10 mark to see the part that is applicable.

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Old 06-27-2018, 11:31 AM
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Problem is, if you follow your own advice, your humble opinion is likely to get you killed... and your current knowledge is at a very low level.

Anything that is going to penetrate deep enough to hit vitals is going to go through sheetrock... and multiple pieces. You have to hit vitals to stop a threat.

Watch this video and tell me that a shotgun with birdshot is a good idea... You can fast forward to about the 1:10 mark to see the part that is applicable.

Brave Student Stops Active Shooter on Campus | Active Self Protection - YouTube
Thanks cyphertext for response and video.

The only question is , how many walls will the ammo penetrate in a home? As a home owner I need to know when I fire my weapon where will the bullet go and have idea how many walls the bullet will pass through.

Do you have a video or documentation that shows which 12 gauge shotgun ammo is recommended to hit vital organs or gel testing, then count the number of dry wall the ammo pass through before tumbling or degrading?

Do you have a video or documentation that shows which 12 gauge shotgun ammo pass through multiple walls when the shooter MISSED the target and then stop penetrating?

Last edited by goodoboy; 06-27-2018 at 11:35 AM.
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Old 06-27-2018, 11:31 AM
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DO NOT USE BIRDSHOT IN YOUR SELF DEFENSE SHOTGUN! IT HAS POOR TERMINAL PERFORMANCE AGAINST HUMANS!
IMO, this can not be stressed enough. Birdshot is for birds, not
for a threat that, if not stopped, is going to do you serious harm
or kill you. #4 Buck at a minimum, #1, 0 or 00 Buck are better,
for those situations.
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Old 06-27-2018, 11:49 AM
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IMO, this can not be stressed enough. Birdshot is for birds, not
for a threat that, if not stopped, is going to do you serious harm
or kill you. #4 Buck at a minimum, #1, 0 or 00 Buck are better,
for those situations.
REM 3200,

I respectfully and partially disagree with you.

I agree that bird shot may not be enough to totally stop the the threat and the threat can still harm you.

I don't agree with just blindly telling someone to use buckshot without telling the person "you better be darn sure you know what's behind the target if you MISS or after penetration "

So what happen if someone use buckshot or 00 and the next wall a kid is there? What if a window is there? This is why I (a simple newbie gun guy trying to learn) need to know what ammo stands the least chance of penetration multiple walls and still harm or kill the threat.

This why homeowner needs to know what ammo will less likely to penetrate multiple walls and have a position to be in so if missed the ammo doesn't go through soo many walls or out the exterior of home.

That's why I say birdshot will have to be used until the above is confirmed. Still searchin onlone for #4 buckshot

Last edited by goodoboy; 06-27-2018 at 11:53 AM.
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Old 06-27-2018, 12:40 PM
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Old 06-27-2018, 12:57 PM
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Thanks cyphertext for response and video.

The only question is , how many walls will the ammo penetrate in a home? As a home owner I need to know when I fire my weapon where will the bullet go and have idea how many walls the bullet will pass through.

Do you have a video or documentation that shows which 12 gauge shotgun ammo is recommended to hit vital organs or gel testing, then count the number of dry wall the ammo pass through before tumbling or degrading?

Do you have a video or documentation that shows which 12 gauge shotgun ammo pass through multiple walls when the shooter MISSED the target and then stop penetrating?
You are looking for guarantees that do not exist. Since you have stated that you are not going room to room, but will be stationary, you should be able to judge your firing line and backstop. You can also alter trajectory by kneeling or lying prone, so that you are shooting upwards vs. level... this also makes you a smaller target.

If you are going to use a shotgun, then use buckshot. Many folks recommend the Federal Flight Control loads, as these limit the spread of the pellets. If you miss, these will go through sheet rock... but the chance of them exiting the exterior wall of your home and entering a neighbors home is low.

Same with the AR... use an appropriate round designed for defense. It will go through sheet rock, but chances of exiting your house and into a neighbors is low.

And same with the 9mm. Just make sure you shooting lines do not go through windows.

My son and I were looking at this in our house today. There is a line from a bedroom towards the kitchen where we can't take a shot... from the angle of the shot, the backstop is a window, with the neighbors window beyond that... Just be aware of these type of arrangements.
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Old 06-27-2018, 01:09 PM
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REM 3200,

I respectfully and partially disagree with you.

I agree that bird shot may not be enough to totally stop the the threat and the threat can still harm you.

I don't agree with just blindly telling someone to use buckshot without telling the person "you better be darn sure you know what's behind the target if you MISS or after penetration "

So what happen if someone use buckshot or 00 and the next wall a kid is there? What if a window is there? This is why I (a simple newbie gun guy trying to learn) need to know what ammo stands the least chance of penetration multiple walls and still harm or kill the threat.

This why homeowner needs to know what ammo will less likely to penetrate multiple walls and have a position to be in so if missed the ammo doesn't go through soo many walls or out the exterior of home.

That's why I say birdshot will have to be used until the above is confirmed. Still searchin onlone for #4 buckshot
You still have to adhere to the 4 rules of gun safety... even in a defensive scenario in your home.

See my post above about shooting lines. Our old home had a long hallway and all three bedrooms were along the hall way. I could take a defensive position in the hall with no worry of firing into a bedroom. Our house we live in now has a bedroom on each side of the living room without much hallway. Great use of square footage, but terrible shooting lines! This is why I say to alter your shooting position as well... get low so that your shots are going in an upward trajectory... I still wouldn't shoot though where my son's room is directly behind the threat.
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Old 06-27-2018, 01:34 PM
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First, this video is AFTER the gunman had just killed another student just outside that building, of which that 1 shot also injured a 2nd student.

There is somethin not right with that video. I see NO discharge from the shotgun, no visible recoil from the shot. There WILL be some recoil, some visible opposite and ewual reaction to his shoulder et al. But, there was none visible.

You really don't see the girl react at all. Even if just a low penetration hit, it is going to sting more than a paintball on unpadded body would. And trust me, you get a paintball on your chest, at that range and you will visibly react.

I'll be honest, I don't think he fired a damn thing at that girl. I suspect he fired both rounds of that over/under, or just one and had a misfire inside.

Because tests show birdshot at home distances, 10 ft or so to be quite damaging on tissue. Remember, the spread at 10 ft is 2-1/2 to 3" of lead.

In this video, it's quite devastating through 4 layers of denim, pork ribs, pork shoulder and even 1 layer of drywall behind it. Also shows going through 2 layers of drywall and then 7" of ballistics gel from 10 ft away.


Granted as the shot pattern spreads and with distance, Bird shot loses it's effacy

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Old 06-27-2018, 01:58 PM
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You are looking for guarantees that do not exist. Since you have stated that you are not going room to room, but will be stationary, you should be able to judge your firing line and backstop. You can also alter trajectory by kneeling or lying prone, so that you are shooting upwards vs. level... this also makes you a smaller target.

If you are going to use a shotgun, then use buckshot. Many folks recommend the Federal Flight Control loads, as these limit the spread of the pellets. If you miss, these will go through sheet rock... but the chance of them exiting the exterior wall of your home and entering a neighbors home is low.

Same with the AR... use an appropriate round designed for defense. It will go through sheet rock, but chances of exiting your house and into a neighbors is low.

And same with the 9mm. Just make sure you shooting lines do not go through windows.

My son and I were looking at this in our house today. There is a line from a bedroom towards the kitchen where we can't take a shot... from the angle of the shot, the backstop is a window, with the neighbors window beyond that... Just be aware of these type of arrangements.
Even going room to room one should be conscious of shooting lines. In fact, imho, one should practice moving room to room, thinking about shot lines as you hit each room. One should go through different scenarios thinking through all the variables. You can't always count on the bad guy allowing you to retreat to a specific room. You may not have the luxury of being in your bedroom, when you hear a break-in.

What happens if someone breaks through your front door, your back while you're awake? Where are the possible places you might be when that happens? Where is your home defense weapon?. How easy is it to get to? IMHO, you need to game all these scenarios, practice what you will do, what your shot lines are, where others might be.

Me personally, I don't have just one home defense gun. I have a bunch depending on scenarios. While indoors and awake, I have a 9mm Glock 19 open carried with Hollow Points. If it's an in bed wake up scenario, It will be likely be an AR15 with V Max varmint rounds AND possibly that same Glock 9mm. In the yard (and it's suburban setting) it's my concealed carry handguns, either a single stack 9mm or my Bodyguard in 380 ACP, depending on what I am wearing or doing. In theory I could carry the AR around like I would at the lake house, but why tempt idiots freaking out as they walk or drive by.

If it's a temporary collapse of society/civil unrest, then it depends on how many of my 2 sons are at home and the level and duration of unrest. Mossberg 590, AR, SKS, even possibly the 9mm Carbine along with a handgun each comes into play.
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Old 06-27-2018, 02:43 PM
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First, this video is AFTER the gunman had just killed another student just outside that building, of which that 1 shot also injured a 2nd student.

There is somethin not right with that video. I see NO discharge from the shotgun, no visible recoil from the shot. There WILL be some recoil, some visible opposite and ewual reaction to his shoulder et al. But, there was none visible.

You really don't see the girl react at all. Even if just a low penetration hit, it is going to sting more than a paintball on unpadded body would. And trust me, you get a paintball on your chest, at that range and you will visibly react.

I'll be honest, I don't think he fired a damn thing at that girl. I suspect he fired both rounds of that over/under, or just one and had a misfire inside.

Because tests show birdshot at home distances, 10 ft or so to be quite damaging on tissue. Remember, the spread at 10 ft is 2-1/2 to 3" of lead.

In this video, it's quite devastating through 4 layers of denim, pork ribs, pork shoulder and even 1 layer of drywall behind it. Also shows going through 2 layers of drywall and then 7" of ballistics gel from 10 ft away.
He did shoot the girl in the building, and she was able to run away. See the timeline in this link. king5.com | Timeline: Seattle Pacific University shooting

The timeline also states that the student who was killed was shot in the back of the head at close range... I'm willing to bet that back of the head is really more the base of the skull / neck area where the shot wouldn't require as much penetration to hit the spinal cord, effectively cutting the brain off from the rest of the body.

In the video, yes the shot penetrated the sheet rock and went 5 to 7 inches in the gelatin, depending upon load... but FBI testing states that 12" of penetration is required for reliable hits to the vitals. Bird shot from across the room does not get that penetration. If I am going to shoot, I want the threat to stop. The video I posted shows that the girl who was shot could have reacted, had she been armed.
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Old 06-27-2018, 02:49 PM
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Even going room to room one should be conscious of shooting lines. In fact, imho, one should practice moving room to room, thinking about shot lines as you hit each room. One should go through different scenarios thinking through all the variables. You can't always count on the bad guy allowing you to retreat to a specific room. You may not have the luxury of being in your bedroom, when you hear a break-in.

What happens if someone breaks through your front door, your back while you're awake? Where are the possible places you might be when that happens? Where is your home defense weapon?. How easy is it to get to? IMHO, you need to game all these scenarios, practice what you will do, what your shot lines are, where others might be.

Me personally, I don't have just one home defense gun. I have a bunch depending on scenarios. While indoors and awake, I have a 9mm Glock 19 open carried with Hollow Points. If it's an in bed wake up scenario, It will be likely be an AR15 with V Max varmint rounds AND possibly that same Glock 9mm. In the yard (and it's suburban setting) it's my concealed carry handguns, either a single stack 9mm or my Bodyguard in 380 ACP, depending on what I am wearing or doing. In theory I could carry the AR around like I would at the lake house, but why tempt idiots freaking out as they walk or drive by.

If it's a temporary collapse of society/civil unrest, then it depends on how many of my 2 sons are at home and the level and duration of unrest. Mossberg 590, AR, SKS, even possibly the 9mm Carbine along with a handgun each comes into play.
While I agree, I don't believe the OP is at the level to respond to all of the scenarios that could happen. At this point, I think he is looking at the bump in the night awakens you scenario.

Really, home defense should be several layers. Motion detecting exterior lighting as one layer, or deterrent. Landscaping that dissuades someone from accessing windows, making sure all windows and doors are locked, alarm systems, dogs... all these things should come into play before the gun... Make your home appear to be more difficult to get into than the one down the street.
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Old 06-27-2018, 03:20 PM
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While I agree, I don't believe the OP is at the level to respond to all of the scenarios that could happen. At this point, I think he is looking at the bump in the night awakens you scenario.

Really, home defense should be several layers. Motion detecting exterior lighting as one layer, or deterrent. Landscaping that dissuades someone from accessing windows, making sure all windows and doors are locked, alarm systems, dogs... all these things should come into play before the gun... Make your home appear to be more difficult to get into than the one down the street.
Yep

and yep.

I pity the fool that tries for my windows. All manner of different, nasty flora to get through.
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Old 06-27-2018, 03:42 PM
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Even going room to room one should be conscious of shooting lines. In fact, imho, one should practice moving room to room, thinking about shot lines as you hit each room. One should go through different scenarios thinking through all the variables. You can't always count on the bad guy allowing you to retreat to a specific room. You may not have the luxury of being in your bedroom, when you hear a break-in.

What happens if someone breaks through your front door, your back while you're awake? Where are the possible places you might be when that happens? Where is your home defense weapon?. How easy is it to get to? IMHO, you need to game all these scenarios, practice what you will do, what your shot lines are, where others might be.

Me personally, I don't have just one home defense gun. I have a bunch depending on scenarios. While indoors and awake, I have a 9mm Glock 19 open carried with Hollow Points. If it's an in bed wake up scenario, It will be likely be an AR15 with V Max varmint rounds AND possibly that same Glock 9mm. In the yard (and it's suburban setting) it's my concealed carry handguns, either a single stack 9mm or my Bodyguard in 380 ACP, depending on what I am wearing or doing. In theory I could carry the AR around like I would at the lake house, but why tempt idiots freaking out as they walk or drive by.

If it's a temporary collapse of society/civil unrest, then it depends on how many of my 2 sons are at home and the level and duration of unrest. Mossberg 590, AR, SKS, even possibly the 9mm Carbine along with a handgun each comes into play.
Good response.

What grain are using in your Vmax and why?
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Old 06-27-2018, 05:04 PM
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OK, so with many of these threads in the AR section, I have watched this one limp along with lots of differing ideas and conjecture. I have resisted commenting, but at this point I don't think I can take much more. I will make a few suggestions (points) and you all can debate and tell me how wrong I am. Most of what I suggest is based on MY real world experience. Feel free to explain why all my experiences are wrong.

#1: In all the shootings I have EVER investigated, I have never seen an errant round leave a house. NEVER. Not once. I have investigated AR discharges in residences, shotgun discharges, and pistol discharges. Not once have I ever seen a shooting where a round has exited the residence. I have been on scene and witnessed shootings and never seen an errant round leave a building. NEVER. Not one time. IN MY OPINION, it is so rare and uncommon as to not be relevant.

#2: Since my office is beside the Captain that commands the ERT (Emergency Response Team) I popped over and asked. I said, "Hey, Cap are you busy? I was wondering why you guys switched from the MP-5 to the AR platform in 5.56mm". His response was "to prevent the chance of over penetration from room to room within a residence". We discussed at length, the testing and studies that have empirically shown the DECREASED possibility of room to room over penetration of the 5.56mm round in comparison to MOST common pistol cartridges. The FBI has tested this concept exhaustively. He briefly showed me a couple power point slides taken from various tests. I think the evidence is clear here and has been for quite some time.

#3: The viability of the shotgun in CQB is undisputed. There is a reason they are in just about every cruiser in the country. IN MY OPINION, only a fool would consider bird shot to be a viable self defense round. There has been sound advice here that recommended #4, #1, or 00 buckshot. A LARGE NUMBER of entry teams use #4 buck in a short barreled shotgun for the entry man. There is a reason for that.

#4: This forum is an awesome source of knowledge. However, it is geared towards S & W handguns. In no disrespect to this board, try someplace like AR15.com or M4CARBINE.com and ask folks that live and breathe the AR platform. Since you first started posting your "newbie" questions about the platform, I have often wondered why someone hasn't suggested this to you. Yes, your rifle is manufactured by S & W, but there are much more knowledgeable folks in regards to the AR platform on other boards. Branch out and ask these folks.

I wish you luck in your quest. This topic has been discussed in depth and extensively on AR related boards. You might want to seek more in depth explanations there.

I still think you would be well served with you AR as a home defense gun. Now what a jury of your peers (in your jurisdiction) would think were you drug into court, is probably the more important question.
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Old 06-27-2018, 06:52 PM
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#4: This forum is an awesome source of knowledge. However, it is geared towards S & W handguns. In no disrespect to this board, try someplace like AR15.com or M4CARBINE.com and ask folks that live and breathe the AR platform. Since you first started posting your "newbie" questions about the platform, I have often wondered why someone hasn't suggested this to you. Yes, your rifle is manufactured by S & W, but there are much more knowledgeable folks in regards to the AR platform on other boards. Branch out and ask these folks.
Only thing I disagree with is sending the OP to M4Carbine... unless with strict instructions to read, not post...
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Old 06-27-2018, 07:05 PM
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Simple philosophy..if you have concerns, don't do it. Only your concerns and opinion really matter to you. All else is unimportant. Everyone has a different comfort level, just stick to your own.
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Old 06-27-2018, 08:09 PM
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I've been surfing gun boards of all types for at least 10 years, I grew up with guns - mostly shotguns but also .22's, I've shot a lot of things over the years and I have been around other shooting scenes.

First I have shot MULTIPLE animals with birdshot that did NOT die. I shot my neighbors chickens because when I asked my neighbor about keeping them out of my garden he said shoot them so I did. I shot at least 7-8 chickens with 20 ga. birdshot. Most of them didn't even notice it. Chickens. I also shot a rabid fox twice with that same ammo. It didn't flinch. Bird shot is NOT good for defense against humans no matter the gauge of the shotgun. Buckshot is devastating to humans. Birdshot may make a wound that looks awful but not penetrate the chest cavity at all. If it won't kill a chicken I ain't using it for defense.

I haven't investigated crime scenes but I know of one where a guy I knew shot up a trailer with 7.62 X 39 ammo from an SKS. It penetrated both sides of the trailer and an interior closet where it killed his intended target. Some ammo is made to penetrate.

Personally I much prefer .45 ACP to 9mm. You get about the same penetration but you get considerably more transferred energy with a .45. I've heard all the arguments about modern 9mm bullets. The thing is those same principles are used in modern .45 caliber bullets.

I have a video of a comparison to terminal ballistic performance between a 9mm and .45. The chart and the channel clearly show the .45 delivers more punch with minimal more penetration. And the test is not done with 230 gr. ammo like it should be. They show smaller rounds and then draw the erroneous conclusion that the terminal ballistics are the same even though their own chart shows it isn't. The larger .45 round delivered significantly more energy to the target and a 230 gr. shell would have delivered even more. They used two weights of .45. The lighter round, 160 gr., was about equal to the 9mm. The larger 180 gr. bullet was not. It was more powerful clearly. Just as the energy transfer was higher with the 180 gr. round it should be even higher with a 230 gr. round.

People will argue that a .45 is harder to handle. It is but if you have the right pistol it is minimal. I have a .45 that is very easy to handle and one that isn't. The axis height of the barrel affects this issue a lot.

As for lighter bullets in a 5.56 all I can say is I've killed feral dogs by shooting them in the head with a .22. I've "never" failed to kill one with a single shot to the head. That doesn't mean a .22 is just as effective as a larger round. It isn't. The path to a vital organ is just very short with a head shot. If you have to penetrate some obstacle like an arm or you hit a door frame first your bullet is going to fragment too soon and not penetrate far enough. Heavier weight bullets will do better in that situation. As you already know your backstop for your bullet will matter more than anything else for keeping your bullet at home. And there is a post from someone that should know that bullets exiting a house are rare unless you're using a round that will penetrate a 16" tree like a 6.62 x 39 will. I've seen that happen.

Also you have to consider the state of mind of a potential attacker. If you get someone totally out of their head on drugs or just psychotic an ugly wound may not deter them one bit. They may not even know they have been shot. You really need a bullet that will do the job or buckshot that will do the job. Both can be very effective if you make the right choices for bullet design or shell design and the power behind both. BTW someone suggested using a shotgun slug. If you want penetration that's the round to use. They transfer a huge amount of energy to whatever they hit.

Again here's the comparison test of 9mm vs. .45 ACP. Look at the chart yourself and see that what they tell you isn't true. BTW gel is a better predictor of tissue damage than almost anything else. It reveals a lot about the transfer of energy to the target including wound channel and penetration.

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Old 06-27-2018, 08:56 PM
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I found another page that sort of backs up my assertion that a .45 is more effective. Note the expansion and the penetration and expansion of certain .45 bullets. The Winchester 230 gr Ranger T-Series is the gold standard it seems to me. Nothing in the 9mm category compares to the expansion and correct penetration IMO. The test is subjective like all tests though. It includes several layers of cloth to simulate clothing but depending on many factors there may be little to no clothing on your attacker. It's good to know which rounds are affected by cloth but I don't think this test tells the entire story of terminal ballistics.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/sel...c-tests/#45ACP
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Old 06-27-2018, 09:21 PM
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According to popular belief, and AR15 will shoot through schools and knock planes out of the sky. In fact, practically any firearm will penetrate a frame house and go on to wreak havoc. That might not be completely true of an AR15.

The bullet from an AR15 will tumble once it hits something at an angle, even a piece of cardboard. Its penetrating ability is greatly diminished and it's potential flight shortened. The propensity to tumble is one of the reasons it was chosen for combat in the mid 60's.

You are much more likely to hit your target with a long gun, and if necessary, multiple times. An AR15 round is very likely to stop there, whereas ball ammo from a pistol is more likely to leave an exit wound, practically unscathed (hence hollow points).

According to Gary Kleck and others, a potential assailant is 100 times more likely to run away than fight when confronted with a firearm, and an AR15 looks very dangerous from any angle. Either way, it's better than the alternatives.
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Old 06-27-2018, 09:43 PM
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wow. total disregard of the question asked . . .
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Old 06-27-2018, 09:50 PM
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Anyone have any thoughts about the new Hornady Critical Defense Rifle?

Hornady® Critical Defense® Rifle - YouTube
I always thought the limited choice of ammo precluded using an AR indoors. This changes the game. There are a few things I want to check out like if it will over penetrate a body. I would much rather have a 9mm carbine for home defense.
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Old 06-27-2018, 11:41 PM
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OK, so with many of these threads in the AR section, I have watched this one limp along with lots of differing ideas and conjecture. I have resisted commenting, but at this point I don't think I can take much more. I will make a few suggestions (points) and you all can debate and tell me how wrong I am. Most of what I suggest is based on MY real world experience. Feel free to explain why all my experiences are wrong.

#1: In all the shootings I have EVER investigated, I have never seen an errant round leave a house. NEVER. Not once. I have investigated AR discharges in residences, shotgun discharges, and pistol discharges. Not once have I ever seen a shooting where a round has exited the residence. I have been on scene and witnessed shootings and never seen an errant round leave a building. NEVER. Not one time. IN MY OPINION, it is so rare and uncommon as to not be relevant.

#2: Since my office is beside the Captain that commands the ERT (Emergency Response Team) I popped over and asked. I said, "Hey, Cap are you busy? I was wondering why you guys switched from the MP-5 to the AR platform in 5.56mm". His response was "to prevent the chance of over penetration from room to room within a residence". We discussed at length, the testing and studies that have empirically shown the DECREASED possibility of room to room over penetration of the 5.56mm round in comparison to MOST common pistol cartridges. The FBI has tested this concept exhaustively. He briefly showed me a couple power point slides taken from various tests. I think the evidence is clear here and has been for quite some time.

#3: The viability of the shotgun in CQB is undisputed. There is a reason they are in just about every cruiser in the country. IN MY OPINION, only a fool would consider bird shot to be a viable self defense round. There has been sound advice here that recommended #4, #1, or 00 buckshot. A LARGE NUMBER of entry teams use #4 buck in a short barreled shotgun for the entry man. There is a reason for that.

#4: This forum is an awesome source of knowledge. However, it is geared towards S & W handguns. In no disrespect to this board, try someplace like AR15.com or M4CARBINE.com and ask folks that live and breathe the AR platform. Since you first started posting your "newbie" questions about the platform, I have often wondered why someone hasn't suggested this to you. Yes, your rifle is manufactured by S & W, but there are much more knowledgeable folks in regards to the AR platform on other boards. Branch out and ask these folks.

I wish you luck in your quest. This topic has been discussed in depth and extensively on AR related boards. You might want to seek more in depth explanations there.

I still think you would be well served with you AR as a home defense gun. Now what a jury of your peers (in your jurisdiction) would think were you drug into court, is probably the more important question.
Very good points. Thank you
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Old 06-28-2018, 02:23 AM
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The 5.56 semi-auto rifle is the finest home defense weapon you can buy/utilize. Assuming your local politics are at least somewhat friendly towards AR-15's, and being Houston, I would assume that to be the case.

It has a lot going for it. Good capacity. Good terminal performance. Excellent accuracy. It's an excellent home defense weapon, for the same reason that US soldiers use an M4 house to house, and US SWAT teams use some sort of AR15 carbine for entries. Why do they do that? Because its the best tool for the job. Offensively and defensively.

Going against it, is the negative, scary nature of the gun to leftist idiots. And it's loud. Really loud. Keep electronic hearing protection next to the rifle. If you have time to put the hearing protection on, your ears will thank you.

9MM, buckshot, AND 5.56 are all very capable of penetrating plenty of building materials and walls. The 5.56 has less sectional density and is thus much less dangerous after passing through a wall or two than buckshot or 9MM. ESPECIALLY if the bullet is of a fragmenting or expanding design, and not a FMJ.

I have personally slapped the handcuffs on 10 home invasion suspects. 5 of them were wearing soft body armor (a full 50%), which would protect them from pistol and shotgun rounds. THIS is why I keep an AR15 next to my bed. My experience tells me that home invasion suspects are using body armor. I want to have a tactical edge over that. So a 5.56 rifle works for me.

Brick should stop any bullets, and is a good thing to have in this scenario.

If you are REALLY worried about over penetration, I would recommend a 12 gauge with #4 buckshot. Nothing bigger, nothing smaller.

And one last point. In actual shootings, the average trained police officer, using a pistol, only hits his target about 20% of the time. Using a long gun, they hit their target on average about 90-95% of the time. I think we could reasonably expect similar hit ratios with the average home defender. So while you might be super scared about over penetration, you are much more likely to actually hit your target with a long gun. Just another point to ponder.

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Old 06-28-2018, 11:07 AM
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He did shoot the girl in the building, and she was able to run away. See the timeline in this link. king5.com | Timeline: Seattle Pacific University shooting

The timeline also states that the student who was killed was shot in the back of the head at close range... I'm willing to bet that back of the head is really more the base of the skull / neck area where the shot wouldn't require as much penetration to hit the spinal cord, effectively cutting the brain off from the rest of the body.

In the video, yes the shot penetrated the sheet rock and went 5 to 7 inches in the gelatin, depending upon load... but FBI testing states that 12" of penetration is required for reliable hits to the vitals. Bird shot from across the room does not get that penetration. If I am going to shoot, I want the threat to stop. The video I posted shows that the girl who was shot could have reacted, had she been armed.
I know what the official story is. But, to my eyes, in that video, that shotgun never fired. That is what I see. Sorry.

I won't get into the theories many experts have that the FBI requirements are too much.

I will say, you're trying to compare 12" when fired straight into gel, to 5-7" AFTER passing through 2 pieces of drywall.

And the videos I posted show the sever damage bird shot does through 4 layers of denim, through pork ribs and shoulder. Real life flesh. Key is it was at 10 ft. That's the key with Birdshot, range.

There are also more than one 'birdshot'.
Shotgun Penetration With Various Rounds - The Truth About Guns

Conclusion in above link is that, as long as it is close range, several of the larger Birdshot loads are effective.

It also recommends what I would in a home defense shotgun, assuming you store it cruiser style. That is loaded with a progression of shot, and a side saddle with options as well. Bird, Bird, Buck, buck, ....

Really comes down to a particular situation. How close are neighbors, what is your exterior constructed of, where are others in the house likely to be? For instance, for many, firing up is a wise choice. But, both my son's bedrooms are upstairs, and they take up almost the entire upstairs, except for the stairs, a small hall and the bathroom (Cape Cod). So, for me, many shot lines in the ground floor, if aimed up are much more risky.

OPs situation, considering a fixed location of defense, pre-determind shot lines, he can probably use bigger shot, and practice to insure hits.

It's one reason my 590 isn't a primary Home defense option any more, except using slugs, in a defend against mob scenario. But then, I have the luxury of many firearms. Shotgun with an 18-20" barrel is very useful in many uses . It is why AR15 holds a primary position, or the glock at my hip.

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Old 06-28-2018, 02:44 PM
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I know what the official story is. But, to my eyes, in that video, that shotgun never fired. That is what I see. Sorry.
So, you think the news is lying? It's video from a security camera... not HD, 60 frames per second. She was in surgery for five hours and testified in court. She was injured, critically injured... however, if she were a bad guy set to do harm, she could have continued on.

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I won't get into the theories many experts have that the FBI requirements are too much.
Good, because honestly, I doubt that you or I have the level of education and experience to dispute FBI protocol.

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I will say, you're trying to compare 12" when fired straight into gel, to 5-7" AFTER passing through 2 pieces of drywall.

And the videos I posted show the sever damage bird shot does through 4 layers of denim, through pork ribs and shoulder. Real life flesh. Key is it was at 10 ft. That's the key with Birdshot, range.
I grew up hunting small game with a shotgun. I've seen dove continue to fly, squirrels get up and run, rabbits keep going... enough that I'm not going to trust or recommend bird shot of any size for self defense.

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There are also more than one 'birdshot'.
Shotgun Penetration With Various Rounds - The Truth About Guns

Conclusion in above link is that, as long as it is close range, several of the larger Birdshot loads are effective.
I went to this link, skimmed through it and it appears that the author agrees with me... Taken directly from that link, "#4 buckshot is the minimum pellet size we recommend for general tactical applications."



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It also recommends what I would in a home defense shotgun, assuming you store it cruiser style. That is loaded with a progression of shot, and a side saddle with options as well. Bird, Bird, Buck, buck, ....
I have never bought into this idea. My HD shotgun is loaded with 00 buck... no birdshot ever, of any size, and inside my home I don't need the extra distance or the barrier penetration that a slug affords.

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Really comes down to a particular situation. How close are neighbors, what is your exterior constructed of, where are others in the house likely to be? For instance, for many, firing up is a wise choice. But, both my son's bedrooms are upstairs, and they take up almost the entire upstairs, except for the stairs, a small hall and the bathroom (Cape Cod). So, for me, many shot lines in the ground floor, if aimed up are much more risky.

OPs situation, considering a fixed location of defense, pre-determind shot lines, he can probably use bigger shot, and practice to insure hits.

It's one reason my 590 isn't a primary Home defense option any more, except using slugs, in a defend against mob scenario. But then, I have the luxury of many firearms. Shotgun with an 18-20" barrel is very useful in many uses . It is why AR15 holds a primary position, or the glock at my hip.
I agree... I assumed that the OP has a single story home. If two story, firing up may not be ideal, as firing level is not ideal for me in my home.

Since the OP is assuming a fixed location, I agree... he should easily be able to see what his shooting line is, and adjust if needed. I still do not see any use for bird shot... OP has stated he has a brick exterior, so not much chance for anything to penetrate the exterior.
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Old 06-28-2018, 08:12 PM
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[QUOTE=4506517;140081490]




#4: This forum is an awesome source of knowledge. However, it is geared towards S & W handguns. In no disrespect to this board, try someplace like AR15.com or M4CARBINE.com and ask folks that live and breathe the AR platform. Since you first started posting your "newbie" questions about the platform, I have often wondered why someone hasn't suggested this to you. Yes, your rifle is manufactured by S & W, but there are much more knowledgeable folks in regards to the AR platform on other boards. Branch out and ask these folks.



QUOTE]

I would advise against ar15.com, especially the general discussion forum as the number of sociopaths and abrasive jackwads make the place unbearable at times. This is a shame as there are a number of truly knowledgeable folks there on the tech forums and sometimes in GD. I'm not a member for this reason but I do read the tech forums as the knowledge there is outstanding.

I know nothing of the m4 carbine site as I've never heard of it before.
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Old 06-28-2018, 08:40 PM
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I know nothing of the m4 carbine site as I've never heard of it before.
The issue with M4Carbine is that it is touted as a professional's site... this could be good, except they don't like newbie questions, and they don't like any AR that isn't Colt, BCM, Noveske, Daniel Defense, or Sionics... Their attitude is that you can't possibly be serious about home defense with a hobby grade rifle such as the Sport.

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Old 06-28-2018, 08:45 PM
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The issue with M4Carbine is that it is touted as a professional's site... this could be good, except they don't like newbie questions, and they don't like any AR that isn't Colt, BCM, Noveske, Daniel Defense, or Sionics... Their attitude is that you can't possibly be serious about home defense with a hobby grade rifle such as the Sport.
That's not conductive to new owners/shooters. I am a big BCM fan and had a light weight midlength and it was great, but sold it to pay unexpected medical bill. I have a M-16A1 clone now.
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Old 06-28-2018, 09:47 PM
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[QUOTE=goodoboy;140081214]REM 3200,I don't agree with just blindly telling someone to use buckshot without telling the person "you better be darn sure you know what's behind the target if you MISS or after penetration "


Well, I thought I was talking with someone who at least knew the 4 basic rules of gun ownership. #3 being, "Always Be Sure Of Your Target And What Is Behind It". So I didn't consider it a blind statement. Sorry, my mistake. I'm through here.
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Old 06-28-2018, 10:34 PM
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At expected ranges what do you shoot best under stress? Of a 12 gauge an AR or a 9mm handgun all can overpenetrate all can get through a window. Quit over thinking it and use what you can make good hits fast with! Then pick the best ammo for the job. Then practice!
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Old 06-28-2018, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by gwpercle View Post
Home defense and in your situation thinking intruders, inside your home right. Whats the longest shot you can take inside ? Inside my house it's 20 feet....you all sighted in for 25 yards and the 223 might have just a wee bit too much penetration....
I have a short barreled cylinder bore 12 gauge with #4 buckshot next to the night stand. I don't know if it's the best solution but it makes me feel mighty comfortable inside my house where the distances are short. And if 5 rounds of 12 ga. doesn't end it I have a model 58 in 41 magnum on the nightstand for back up.
Gary
Might want to move that model 58 from ON the nightstand to IN the nightstand, as in OUT OF SIGHT.
If someone gets inside your house while you are asleep and gets near that gun, they could kill you in your sleep with it.
It is almost always a bad idea to have a loaded gun in the house in plain sight unless unless you can be absolutely sure no unauthorized person can get their hands on it.
Think about it.

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Old 06-29-2018, 12:00 AM
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So, you think the news is lying? It's video from a security camera... not HD, 60 frames per second. She was in surgery for five hours and testified in court. She was injured, critically injured... however, if she were a bad guy set to do harm, she could have continued on.



Good, because honestly, I doubt that you or I have the level of education and experience to dispute FBI protocol.



I grew up hunting small game with a shotgun. I've seen dove continue to fly, squirrels get up and run, rabbits keep going... enough that I'm not going to trust or recommend bird shot of any size for self defense.



I went to this link, skimmed through it and it appears that the author agrees with me... Taken directly from that link, "#4 buckshot is the minimum pellet size we recommend for general tactical applications."





I have never bought into this idea. My HD shotgun is loaded with 00 buck... no birdshot ever, of any size, and inside my home I don't need the extra distance or the barrier penetration that a slug affords.



I agree... I assumed that the OP has a single story home. If two story, firing up may not be ideal, as firing level is not ideal for me in my home.

Since the OP is assuming a fixed location, I agree... he should easily be able to see what his shooting line is, and adjust if needed. I still do not see any use for bird shot... OP has stated he has a brick exterior, so not much chance for anything to penetrate the exterior.
Have you ever shot any game while hunting with birdshot at across the room distances or closer that got away if reasonably well-centered with the pattern?
FBI protocol has little to no bearing on the OP's requirements. They have to be prepared for the occaisional outdoor, or warehouse encounter where the distances involved may be longer. They may need to shoot through car windows.
None of this is part of the OP's situation.
So, pretty much any size of bird shot will do.
I would probably go with #4 to #6 field loads rather than slugs or buchshot. Somewhat lower recoil and muzzle blast are good things. Makes practice more enjoyable as well.

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Old 06-29-2018, 01:02 AM
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Have you ever shot any game while hunting with birdshot at across the room distances or closer that got away if reasonably well-centered with the pattern?
FBI protocol has little to no bearing on the OP's requirements. They have to be prepared for the occaisional outdoor, or warehouse encounter where the distances involved may be longer. They may need to shoot through car windows.
None of this is part of the OP's situation.
So, pretty much any size of bird shot will do.
I would probably go with #4 to #6 field loads rather than slugs or buchshot. Somewhat lower recoil and muzzle blast are good things. Makes practice more enjoyable as well.
No, bird shot will not do... watch the video I posted above. A female university student was hit center of mass from across the room distance... She didn't stop... she ran away on her own power.

FBI ballistics testing has everything to do with it. The protocol states that the projectile needs to have 12" of penetration in ballistic gel to reliably hit vital organs. Has nothing to do with shooting through car windows, barriers, or long distance. Bird shot does not reliably provide the penetration to hit vitals. If I pull the trigger, I want the threat stopped. I don't want them to still be in the fight.
And yes, I have hit game with a well placed shot from 10 yards away and it did not immediately stop. If I shoot from my den across to the kitchen area, I'm looking at a shot that is 36 - 40 feet... I've shot dove at that same distance and they were still moving around on the ground when I went to pick them up.
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Old 06-29-2018, 01:31 AM
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Have you ever shot any game while hunting with birdshot at across the room distances or closer that got away if reasonably well-centered with the pattern?
YES. I've seen it happen more than once. I shot chickens from 15 feet and they didn't flinch. Not even a little. And no I didn't miss. I shot a fox twice and nothing. It didn't seem to notice.

Birdshot is for birds. It can be effective at very short distances when th e shot combines to form one wound but personally I don't want to wait until an attacker is a few feet away. I want a weapon to be effective at distances inside my house which can be 25 feet or more. Birdshot at that distance is very ineffective.

Again birdshot is known to not penetrate nearly far enough when it spreads even a few inches.
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Old 06-29-2018, 07:41 AM
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Just a thought, how about putting a 9mm upper on your AR. JMO but I don't think you need a 5.56 unless you expect it to turn into a war zone where you live.
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Old 06-29-2018, 08:31 AM
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Just a thought, how about putting a 9mm upper on your AR. JMO but I don't think you need a 5.56 unless you expect it to turn into a war zone where you live.
A couple of reasons...

1. Cost

2. See posts above where many have stated that the 9mm will go through more walls.

Your "turn into a war zone" comment sounds a bit anti-gun, or at least anti "assault weapon"...
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Old 06-29-2018, 02:10 PM
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Just a thought, how about putting a 9mm upper on your AR. JMO but I don't think you need a 5.56 unless you expect it to turn into a war zone where you live.
Thanks beb42503,

From what I have read, 9mm will penetrate more through walls then the 223/556. So if I shoot and miss, its more penetration through walls.

The goal is less penetration through walls, but enough bullet to be lethal as possible.

Lots of bullets to choose from, which is makes more complicated.
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Old 06-29-2018, 02:23 PM
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So, pretty much any size of bird shot will do. I would probably go with #4 to #6 field loads rather than slugs or buckshot.
I have read NUMEROUS accounts of people using birdshot, and it coming back to bite them in the butt. Doesn't incapacitate the threat, which gets them killed or seriously injured. There are at least two dead cops that I know of, that inadvertently had birdshot in their patrol shotguns instead of buckshot, and they died because of it.

In ballistics, we know that projectiles (bullets) can stop a person in three ways-
1) Blood loss (exsanguination)
2) Central nervous system damage (spine, brain)
3) Psychologically (I've been shot, I give up!! Call me an ambulance!!)

Bird shot can not reliably stop a person via any of these means!! Bird shot CAN stop a person via one of these three means, but not reliably.

The Miami face eating zombie was eating that dudes face off. A cop approached, ordered him off, and then shot the man with a .40. The zombie growled, then went back to his meal. Getting shot did nothing, and did not alter his behavior. The cop had to shoot him a time or two more to get the desired affect.

As a former cop, I am of the opinion that you HAVE to prepare for similar zombies. Why? Because they are out their in the communities. They have super human strength. They are high on drugs, and they DO NOT care if you shoot them. They wont stop attacking, until their body physically is unable to. On average, I handcuffed and fought a very similar mindless zombie several times a year. And that's just one officer. Magnify that by all the officers in an area, and an average size city could have several hundred encounters with an excited delirium individual.

OK, you think a face eating zombie sounds far fetched in your area? Perhaps. How about another scenario. You are dating a new girlfriend. Her ex-boyfriend takes exception to that. He decides that he is going to shoot you, her, and then take his own life. It's a suicide mission to him. HE DOES NOT CARE if you shoot him with birdshot. He already came to your house with the idea that he was going to die. He is suicidal. And determined. And he WILL continue attacking you until you are dead, or he is dead. Your birdshot had just pissed him off, but done nothing to incapacitate him. Congratulations, you chose the wrong ammunition, and you are very likely to die because of it.

OR, you could just choose the correct ammunition from the get go. And be better prepared to handle a suicidal, homicidal, or zombie like suspect.

You can use birdshot if you want, but no experts are going to pat you on the back and agree with your position.

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Old 06-29-2018, 03:47 PM
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The issue with M4Carbine is that it is touted as a professional's site... this could be good, except they don't like newbie questions, and they don't like any AR that isn't Colt, BCM, Noveske, Daniel Defense, or Sionics... Their attitude is that you can't possibly be serious about home defense with a hobby grade rifle such as the Sport.
It's not that the M4C cadre doesn't like newbies, they get frustrated with newbies who insist on being ignorant, spouting nonsense or repeating BS.

The cadre prefers certain brands because they work well right out of the box and develop fewer problems as they are being used. If more shooters used the preferred brands, less time would be spent helping shooters troubleshoot their malfunctioning rifles.

Are there some jerks, know-it-alls and curmudgeons on M4C? Yes, just like any other site. But the level of knowledge about subjects such as the one being discussed in this thread is much better than average.

Take this thread for example. We have a post from an experienced investigator stating that he has never seen an incident where a bullet has left a house where a shooting has taken place. We have data showing that the AR has less chance of penetrating a house to wound or kill an innocent bystander than a handgun or shotgun. We have links to collected data from experts in the field showing that birdshot is a poor choice for self defense. Yet, we still have people advocating the use of a shotgun loaded with birdshot so a stray projectile won't kill Little Suzy playing doctor in the bushes with Bobby three blocks down.

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Old 06-29-2018, 04:49 PM
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Another long video of guys doing terrible things to Sheetrock...My House Gun is an HK45 with an X300 Light, and I think 45ACP is a good choice.


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Old 06-29-2018, 07:34 PM
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If I ever feel compelled to shoot someone inside my home I want to use something that stops them before they do anything. Dead on the spot is not easy to accomplish and if they are not ,you or your loved ones may be. Real life is not like the movies,the bad guys don’t just fall down until you put them down hard. There are no half measures. You will live with your actions or die by your inactions or half measures.
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Old 06-30-2018, 07:22 PM
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If I ever feel compelled to shoot someone inside my home I want to use something that stops them before they do anything. Dead on the spot is not easy to accomplish and if they are not ,you or your loved ones may be. Real life is not like the movies,the bad guys dont just fall down until you put them down hard. There are no half measures. You will live with your actions or die by your inactions or half measures.
I have no experience at all shooting humans (thank God). But I've shot many animals over the many years of my life. Never for no good reason BTW. I've had to shoot my share of feral dogs. They can be a deadly problem. I shot one dog point blank with buckshot. It didn't die. I had to shoot it a second time. I've shot several dogs in the brain. They all die from that but not always instantly. One of the worst experiences of my life involved shooting a feral dog with a SKS. I didn't miss but the dog turned it's head slightly just as I shot. I won't go into the details but it took hours for that dog to die. It jumped up and ran off after the shot. I'm still sick over that. I just don't miss when I shoot to kill. Only twice in my life has that happened and both times involved movement as I shot.

The point is though that you just don't know what it's going to take to actually finish off a human. Killing anything is not pleasant. Shooting a human doesn't come natural to anyone except a rare few. You want the shot you take to count as much as possible so you don't lose focus and forget why you shot in the first place. It makes me sick to think of doing it. But it makes me more sick to think of the consequences if I don't.

Bird shot is for birds. A 9mm is NOT equal to a .45 I don't care how many people say it. I've shot both too many times. A pistol round is not as effective as a rifle round but it may penetrate a wall more than a 5.56 round. My wife can use my AR much more effectively than she could my 12 ga. shotguns. Those things are just true. BTW other pistols can be much more effective than a .45. Use the biggest one you can handle effectively especially regarding followup shots.
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Old 07-01-2018, 12:59 PM
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The gunshop guy is a blithering idiot. The FBI did some research roughly 20 years ago, and found that appropriate service ammo in an AR is far less likely to present a problem in home defense than appropriate pistol ammo. Google Gary Roberts' ammo testing and suggestions and get a decent stock of one of the recommended loads.

That's putting aside that the AR is FAR superior ergonomically, so you are more likely to hit the offender (whose body is the first line of defense against "over-penetration"). BTW, while the 25 yard zero is ok for many purposes, I think you will find that if you do some research with serious instructors and their writing (the late Pat Rogers being probably the single most knowledgable on the issue), you will find that the 50 yard zero is more likely to be workable at close range - less offset at distances under 15 yards or so. (In the house, aim at about the hairline of the offender, and you will likely hit around the bridge of the nose - which is almost certain to turn him off quickly because of the portion of the brain that is directly in line ... and that is your goal - to end the problem as fast as possible.) If you aim at the face, such as the nose, you will likely get a throat shot, which is also likely to be effective, but harder to hit because it is narrower.

The best way to win is without fighting, so invest in things that make your home less attractive as a target, and more of a pain in the butt to enter unlawfully. Think defense in layers - shooting someone is obviously way better than failing to do so when needed, but may indicate that your other efforts to make the offender go elsewhere were not as good as they could be. I have described my views and the general nature of my houses and their setup - you can find those with a search. I'd guess most if not all are in the CC/defense sub-forum. Those work FOR ME and my lifestyle. We don't have visitors more than once a year or so, and I don't care if others find my fence and dogs to be unpleasant. That may not work for you.

(Before anyone whines - I am not saying that the lack of target hardening makes one responsible for the harm to the offender - only the offender is. If one has not noticed that I don't GAF about offender well-being, you have not read much of my writing. The American public, like American LE, does not kill nearly as many violent offender as could/should be. As to LE, it is by a factor of 20 or so, if one studies the actual number killed versus the number of violent assaults on cops. As to the general public, I have not looked that closely at the data, but I'd bet the factor is closer to 50.)

OP: find a quality training class about fighting with the AR, preferably a class that addresses home defense with it. Since Pat died, I have not paid much attention to the arena, partly because I am busy with litigation and writing stuff. I'd bet Gunsite has some good training; a friend of mine teaches there part time. The actual technical issues of fighting are important, but mindset and understanding violent criminals is at least as important and likely more so.
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