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  #101  
Old 07-01-2018, 06:12 PM
goodoboy goodoboy is offline
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Originally Posted by bubbatime View Post
I have read NUMEROUS accounts of people using birdshot, and it coming back to bite them in the butt. Doesn't incapacitate the threat, which gets them killed or seriously injured. There are at least two dead cops that I know of, that inadvertently had birdshot in their patrol shotguns instead of buckshot, and they died because of it.

In ballistics, we know that projectiles (bullets) can stop a person in three ways-
1) Blood loss (exsanguination)
2) Central nervous system damage (spine, brain)
3) Psychologically (I've been shot, I give up!! Call me an ambulance!!)

Bird shot can not reliably stop a person via any of these means!! Bird shot CAN stop a person via one of these three means, but not reliably.

The Miami face eating zombie was eating that dudes face off. A cop approached, ordered him off, and then shot the man with a .40. The zombie growled, then went back to his meal. Getting shot did nothing, and did not alter his behavior. The cop had to shoot him a time or two more to get the desired affect.

As a former cop, I am of the opinion that you HAVE to prepare for similar zombies. Why? Because they are out their in the communities. They have super human strength. They are high on drugs, and they DO NOT care if you shoot them. They wont stop attacking, until their body physically is unable to. On average, I handcuffed and fought a very similar mindless zombie several times a year. And that's just one officer. Magnify that by all the officers in an area, and an average size city could have several hundred encounters with an excited delirium individual.

OK, you think a face eating zombie sounds far fetched in your area? Perhaps. How about another scenario. You are dating a new girlfriend. Her ex-boyfriend takes exception to that. He decides that he is going to shoot you, her, and then take his own life. It's a suicide mission to him. HE DOES NOT CARE if you shoot him with birdshot. He already came to your house with the idea that he was going to die. He is suicidal. And determined. And he WILL continue attacking you until you are dead, or he is dead. Your birdshot had just pissed him off, but done nothing to incapacitate him. Congratulations, you chose the wrong ammunition, and you are very likely to die because of it.

OR, you could just choose the correct ammunition from the get go. And be better prepared to handle a suicidal, homicidal, or zombie like suspect.

You can use birdshot if you want, but no experts are going to pat you on the back and agree with your position.
Thank you bubbatime,

Well explained from someone with many experiences. You are right. I will get the ammo to get the job done.

Last edited by goodoboy; 07-01-2018 at 06:21 PM.
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  #102  
Old 07-01-2018, 06:27 PM
goodoboy goodoboy is offline
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Just an update for anyone in the future who is following the thread and in a similar situation.

I purchased a shotgun and bought #8, #7.5, #6 birdshot and 00 buckshot. Recoil on #6 birdshot and 00 is nearly the same. I plan to find some #4 and #1 buckshot for shooting. Also plan to see some penetration test to see which one at a minimum will hit vital organs Feels good shooting too.

I notice most gun stores (and Academy) do not carry #4, #1 buckshots, only birdshot, slugs, and 00, and 000.

I am going with 00 buckshot for now home defense to get the job done.

Regarding home defense ammo for the AR15. I am still considering the options. I will not be using Vmax 40gr. Need something with more penetration to reach vital organs. The right bullets will prepare me for allll types of scenarios as some of you have explained
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  #103  
Old 07-01-2018, 06:33 PM
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medic15al medic15al is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodoboy View Post
Just an update for anyone in the future who is following the thread and in a similar situation.

I purchased a shotgun and bought #8, #7.5, #6 birdshot and 00 buckshot. Recoil on #6 birdshot and 00 is nearly the same. I plan to find some #4 and #1 buckshot for shooting. Also plan to see some penetration test to see which one at a minimum will hit vital organs Feels good shooting too.

I notice most gun stores (and Academy) do not carry #4, #1 buckshots, only birdshot, slugs, and 00, and 000.

I am going with 00 buckshot for now home defense to get the job done.

Regarding home defense ammo for the AR15. I am still considering the options. I will not be using Vmax 40gr. Need something with more penetration to reach vital organs. The right bullets will prepare me for allll types of scenarios as some of you have explained
If you have a Bass Pro near you they usually carry #4, #1, O, OO, and OOO buckshot in different manufacturers.
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  #104  
Old 07-01-2018, 10:42 PM
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Go to this Ballistics and Projectile Performance | Lightfighter Tactical Forum forum and read Doctor Roberts' information on terminal ballistics.

He is the successor to Dr. Fackler, and I have never heard of anyone seriously asserting that he is not the foremost expert in the field today. Check out the various strings on different calibers and platforms. Pick from the recommendations and find something that works reliably (the first criterion) in your weapons, and drive on.
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  #105  
Old 07-02-2018, 12:18 AM
goodoboy goodoboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medic15al View Post
If you have a Bass Pro near you they usually carry #4, #1, O, OO, and OOO buckshot in different manufacturers.
Thank you medic15al,

Yes, I have a Bass Pro nearby, I will go there and get some.....#4,#1, and 0 and try out.

I am still researching penetration test for the buckshots.
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  #106  
Old 07-04-2018, 11:30 AM
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There is ample discussion of ammo effectiveness for your purpose at the link provided.
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  #107  
Old 07-05-2018, 04:15 PM
mp.74 mp.74 is offline
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Focus on hitting your target rather than spraying rounds. Any of the above mentioned firearms misses and there's room for concern.

A firearm should'nt be your end all be all plan either.

1 a plan (known by you and family)

2 harden your domicile exterior lights ,cameras, alarms, good locks, dogs, etc. Don't be a dunb a and invite trouble by offering an easy target. Don't store a ton of cash tweakers looking to steal flatscreens are totally different from a planned crew targeting you because you have something they want ie large sums of money drugs whatever

3 last but not least a good reliable firearm that you train consistently with

Stay safe bud
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  #108  
Old 07-05-2018, 05:23 PM
WNC Seabee WNC Seabee is offline
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Just to throw a curve ball out there....my HD choice is a 9mm AR with a 4" barrel plus 6" suppressor.

- I'm more confident in handling the SBR vs. Pistol. Especially with a mounted light.

- Pistol ballistics. 4" barrel is in-liine with the majority of pistols, so equivalent penetration.

- Mounted suppressor so no worries about a rifle round going off indoors.

- Mounted sling for going hands on, using a phone, checking windows, etc.

Works perfectly for me.

Last edited by WNC Seabee; 07-05-2018 at 05:28 PM.
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  #109  
Old 07-08-2018, 08:15 PM
C J C J is offline
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Quote:
Go to this Ballistics and Projectile Performance | Lightfighter Tactical Forum forum and read Doctor Roberts' information on terminal ballistics.
His first advice seems like the best advice to me. Any ammo you practice with a lot and know that it will perform in your rifle is good ammo. Obviously certain types of ammo are better but knowing your rifle will function and knowing you can hit your target are much more important.

There is good information on the various pages there. But with 5.56 duty ammo I think you better have someone else paying for your equipment or have so much money it doesn't matter. His suggestions are all very expensive from the rounds he suggests to the rifles and sights he suggests. He doesn't mention any S&W rifles. But I know my rifle functions just fine and is accurate with the ammo I use. I did learn not to chamber the same round multiple times but that may have only been true with the particular rifle he was using and the particular ammo. He wasn't clear about using different rounds or different rifles for that. Still as a general rule I will be trying to follow his advice.

I just think a person can be effective without firing 15,000 rounds a year. Yeah if I was going into combat I'd want to fire that many or more before I went. But I can't afford to shoot like that and I'm not poor. And trying to practice with your SD ammo become expensive quick yet there is no way to know if your rifle will function with that ammo. So using the very high priced ammo he describes and shooting a lot of it would put me in the poor house quick. A few years ago I could afford to shoot a lot but I and my wife are both retired now and I don't have that kind of cash. Luckily I stocked up on effective ammo when I could but not at the level he suggests.
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  #110  
Old 07-10-2018, 10:30 PM
goodoboy goodoboy is offline
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Hello all,

I wanted to share my final comments regarding my conclusion on the issue of over penetration of a bullet when using a AR15 as home defense in hopes that this helps someone else.

Initial problem:
If I miss shooting the intruder with the AR15, the bullet will go through multiple walls and possible exit the house and harm my neighbor or kill them.

Research Results:
1. Yes, its possible for a 223 caliber (or handgun caliber) bullet to exit to shoot through walls.
2. If you want to use AR15 for bullet with least penetration, but still, enough penetration to totally stop an intruder, you have to select the right bullet. Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo This link will guide you. For my case, I have a 1:9 twist barrel, which means my rifle will stabilize a bullet from 55 to 62 gr efficiently. Now I had to select the right bullet for home defense that will penetrate 12" of flesh to be fatal. In order for that to happen with my rifle I had to choose a bonded bullet. Bonded meaning the bullet can shoot through walls or glass, etc and still penetrate 12" to be fatal. I decided to buy the 223 Hornady Critcal Defense for home defense. And the Federal and Speer 62gr bonded bullet. Two magazines with Hornady and another with Federal/Speer. Done. If the situation get ugly in the house. I go to the AR15. If you have the 1:8 twist you can get the 73gr Critical Defense.

3. I had to learn my back stop if someone comes in my house. Where will I go to shoot, so if I miss the bullets will not leave the house or exit on brick.


After all this research, I decided my primary home defense is a shotgun with #6 birshot, because I can handle this better and for my situation, I don't have to worry about shells leaving the house. For me, its just easier this way.

However, the AR15 is right by my bed as well, just in case things get ugly.

Next is to practice and total harden the security of my home. Which I already did.

So, should an AR15 be used as home defense. Yes, but it depends on your house geometry and your back stop. If you miss, make sure the bullet will not leave the house. Unless you live in the country.

Thanks all for the help
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Old 07-10-2018, 11:43 PM
Ricrock Ricrock is offline
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No birdshot..Buckshot at the least!
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  #112  
Old 07-11-2018, 09:31 AM
MistWolf MistWolf is offline
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You can lead a horse to water...
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Old 07-11-2018, 10:54 PM
bubbatime bubbatime is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodoboy View Post
After all this research, I decided my primary home defense is a shotgun with #6 birshot, because I can handle this better and for my situation, I don't have to worry about shells leaving the house. For me, its just easier this way.
Oh beans and rice. If you are going with birdshot, #6 is not what you want.

At least go towards the largest bird shot, size T, BB, 1 or 2.
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Old 07-11-2018, 11:01 PM
bubbatime bubbatime is offline
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I did learn not to chamber the same round multiple times but that may have only been true with the particular rifle he was using and the particular ammo. He wasn't clear about using different rounds or different rifles for that. Still as a general rule I will be trying to follow his advice.
All AR15 rifles have a floating firing pin. The firing pin strikes the primer every time a bullet is chambered. And this strike will leave a small indention on the primer, slightly damaging it. If you chamber the same round 10 or 20 times, you have significantly damaged the primer (and brass and bullet) and its very likely that the round wont fire when you need it to.

In a rather well known incident in the tactical community, a SWAT cop continuously chambered the top round in his magazine during raids. After the raid, he would eject the round and put it back in the top of his magazine. Well that round had been chambered 10 or 40 times (who knows) ....and he got into a shootout. His rifle went "click" instead of "bang". Because the primer was damaged due to his repeatedly chambering the same round.

Never chamber a defensive round more than twice. Once that has happened, rotate that round to the bottom of your magazine, or add it to your training ammo to be shot up at the range.
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Old 07-11-2018, 11:58 PM
goodoboy goodoboy is offline
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Oh beans and rice. If you are going with birdshot, #6 is not what you want.

At least go towards the largest bird shot, size T, BB, 1 or 2.
Thanks bubbatim,

I need to see if #4 or #1 is lethal as well.
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Old 07-12-2018, 10:25 AM
URIT URIT is offline
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Yesterday, I read about a retired Alabama LEO vacationing in a Colorado campground had to use his AR15s (yes, two AR15s) on a guy who was a threat and had shot at others. The retired LEO hit the suspect multiple times (once to the face) and the guy is still alive to file lawsuits.

I choose an S&W Governor as my bedside companion loaded with 00 buck and 45C.

I also have the hallway to the MBR lit with a constant blue nightlight and motion-senor white nightlight, along with another motion-sensor nightlight just inside our MBR door. There will be no doubt. POA is the groin (with good fortune a femoral artery hit will have the prep down for the Big Ten Count).
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