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Old 07-01-2018, 06:12 PM
goodoboy goodoboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbatime View Post
I have read NUMEROUS accounts of people using birdshot, and it coming back to bite them in the butt. Doesn't incapacitate the threat, which gets them killed or seriously injured. There are at least two dead cops that I know of, that inadvertently had birdshot in their patrol shotguns instead of buckshot, and they died because of it.

In ballistics, we know that projectiles (bullets) can stop a person in three ways-
1) Blood loss (exsanguination)
2) Central nervous system damage (spine, brain)
3) Psychologically (I've been shot, I give up!! Call me an ambulance!!)

Bird shot can not reliably stop a person via any of these means!! Bird shot CAN stop a person via one of these three means, but not reliably.

The Miami face eating zombie was eating that dudes face off. A cop approached, ordered him off, and then shot the man with a .40. The zombie growled, then went back to his meal. Getting shot did nothing, and did not alter his behavior. The cop had to shoot him a time or two more to get the desired affect.

As a former cop, I am of the opinion that you HAVE to prepare for similar zombies. Why? Because they are out their in the communities. They have super human strength. They are high on drugs, and they DO NOT care if you shoot them. They wont stop attacking, until their body physically is unable to. On average, I handcuffed and fought a very similar mindless zombie several times a year. And that's just one officer. Magnify that by all the officers in an area, and an average size city could have several hundred encounters with an excited delirium individual.

OK, you think a face eating zombie sounds far fetched in your area? Perhaps. How about another scenario. You are dating a new girlfriend. Her ex-boyfriend takes exception to that. He decides that he is going to shoot you, her, and then take his own life. It's a suicide mission to him. HE DOES NOT CARE if you shoot him with birdshot. He already came to your house with the idea that he was going to die. He is suicidal. And determined. And he WILL continue attacking you until you are dead, or he is dead. Your birdshot had just pissed him off, but done nothing to incapacitate him. Congratulations, you chose the wrong ammunition, and you are very likely to die because of it.

OR, you could just choose the correct ammunition from the get go. And be better prepared to handle a suicidal, homicidal, or zombie like suspect.

You can use birdshot if you want, but no experts are going to pat you on the back and agree with your position.
Thank you bubbatime,

Well explained from someone with many experiences. You are right. I will get the ammo to get the job done.

Last edited by goodoboy; 07-01-2018 at 06:21 PM.
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Old 07-01-2018, 06:27 PM
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Just an update for anyone in the future who is following the thread and in a similar situation.

I purchased a shotgun and bought #8, #7.5, #6 birdshot and 00 buckshot. Recoil on #6 birdshot and 00 is nearly the same. I plan to find some #4 and #1 buckshot for shooting. Also plan to see some penetration test to see which one at a minimum will hit vital organs Feels good shooting too.

I notice most gun stores (and Academy) do not carry #4, #1 buckshots, only birdshot, slugs, and 00, and 000.

I am going with 00 buckshot for now home defense to get the job done.

Regarding home defense ammo for the AR15. I am still considering the options. I will not be using Vmax 40gr. Need something with more penetration to reach vital organs. The right bullets will prepare me for allll types of scenarios as some of you have explained
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Old 07-01-2018, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by goodoboy View Post
Just an update for anyone in the future who is following the thread and in a similar situation.

I purchased a shotgun and bought #8, #7.5, #6 birdshot and 00 buckshot. Recoil on #6 birdshot and 00 is nearly the same. I plan to find some #4 and #1 buckshot for shooting. Also plan to see some penetration test to see which one at a minimum will hit vital organs Feels good shooting too.

I notice most gun stores (and Academy) do not carry #4, #1 buckshots, only birdshot, slugs, and 00, and 000.

I am going with 00 buckshot for now home defense to get the job done.

Regarding home defense ammo for the AR15. I am still considering the options. I will not be using Vmax 40gr. Need something with more penetration to reach vital organs. The right bullets will prepare me for allll types of scenarios as some of you have explained
If you have a Bass Pro near you they usually carry #4, #1, O, OO, and OOO buckshot in different manufacturers.
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  #104  
Old 07-01-2018, 10:42 PM
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Go to this Ballistics and Projectile Performance | Lightfighter Tactical Forum forum and read Doctor Roberts' information on terminal ballistics.

He is the successor to Dr. Fackler, and I have never heard of anyone seriously asserting that he is not the foremost expert in the field today. Check out the various strings on different calibers and platforms. Pick from the recommendations and find something that works reliably (the first criterion) in your weapons, and drive on.
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  #105  
Old 07-02-2018, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medic15al View Post
If you have a Bass Pro near you they usually carry #4, #1, O, OO, and OOO buckshot in different manufacturers.
Thank you medic15al,

Yes, I have a Bass Pro nearby, I will go there and get some.....#4,#1, and 0 and try out.

I am still researching penetration test for the buckshots.
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  #106  
Old 07-04-2018, 11:30 AM
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There is ample discussion of ammo effectiveness for your purpose at the link provided.
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Old 07-05-2018, 04:15 PM
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Focus on hitting your target rather than spraying rounds. Any of the above mentioned firearms misses and there's room for concern.

A firearm should'nt be your end all be all plan either.

1 a plan (known by you and family)

2 harden your domicile exterior lights ,cameras, alarms, good locks, dogs, etc. Don't be a dunb a and invite trouble by offering an easy target. Don't store a ton of cash tweakers looking to steal flatscreens are totally different from a planned crew targeting you because you have something they want ie large sums of money drugs whatever

3 last but not least a good reliable firearm that you train consistently with

Stay safe bud
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Old 07-05-2018, 05:23 PM
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Just to throw a curve ball out there....my HD choice is a 9mm AR with a 4" barrel plus 6" suppressor.

- I'm more confident in handling the SBR vs. Pistol. Especially with a mounted light.

- Pistol ballistics. 4" barrel is in-liine with the majority of pistols, so equivalent penetration.

- Mounted suppressor so no worries about a rifle round going off indoors.

- Mounted sling for going hands on, using a phone, checking windows, etc.

Works perfectly for me.

Last edited by WNC Seabee; 07-05-2018 at 05:28 PM.
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Old 07-08-2018, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Go to this Ballistics and Projectile Performance | Lightfighter Tactical Forum forum and read Doctor Roberts' information on terminal ballistics.
His first advice seems like the best advice to me. Any ammo you practice with a lot and know that it will perform in your rifle is good ammo. Obviously certain types of ammo are better but knowing your rifle will function and knowing you can hit your target are much more important.

There is good information on the various pages there. But with 5.56 duty ammo I think you better have someone else paying for your equipment or have so much money it doesn't matter. His suggestions are all very expensive from the rounds he suggests to the rifles and sights he suggests. He doesn't mention any S&W rifles. But I know my rifle functions just fine and is accurate with the ammo I use. I did learn not to chamber the same round multiple times but that may have only been true with the particular rifle he was using and the particular ammo. He wasn't clear about using different rounds or different rifles for that. Still as a general rule I will be trying to follow his advice.

I just think a person can be effective without firing 15,000 rounds a year. Yeah if I was going into combat I'd want to fire that many or more before I went. But I can't afford to shoot like that and I'm not poor. And trying to practice with your SD ammo become expensive quick yet there is no way to know if your rifle will function with that ammo. So using the very high priced ammo he describes and shooting a lot of it would put me in the poor house quick. A few years ago I could afford to shoot a lot but I and my wife are both retired now and I don't have that kind of cash. Luckily I stocked up on effective ammo when I could but not at the level he suggests.
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  #110  
Old 07-10-2018, 10:30 PM
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Hello all,

I wanted to share my final comments regarding my conclusion on the issue of over penetration of a bullet when using a AR15 as home defense in hopes that this helps someone else.

Initial problem:
If I miss shooting the intruder with the AR15, the bullet will go through multiple walls and possible exit the house and harm my neighbor or kill them.

Research Results:
1. Yes, its possible for a 223 caliber (or handgun caliber) bullet to exit to shoot through walls.
2. If you want to use AR15 for bullet with least penetration, but still, enough penetration to totally stop an intruder, you have to select the right bullet. Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo This link will guide you. For my case, I have a 1:9 twist barrel, which means my rifle will stabilize a bullet from 55 to 62 gr efficiently. Now I had to select the right bullet for home defense that will penetrate 12" of flesh to be fatal. In order for that to happen with my rifle I had to choose a bonded bullet. Bonded meaning the bullet can shoot through walls or glass, etc and still penetrate 12" to be fatal. I decided to buy the 223 Hornady Critcal Defense for home defense. And the Federal and Speer 62gr bonded bullet. Two magazines with Hornady and another with Federal/Speer. Done. If the situation get ugly in the house. I go to the AR15. If you have the 1:8 twist you can get the 73gr Critical Defense.

3. I had to learn my back stop if someone comes in my house. Where will I go to shoot, so if I miss the bullets will not leave the house or exit on brick.


After all this research, I decided my primary home defense is a shotgun with #6 birshot, because I can handle this better and for my situation, I don't have to worry about shells leaving the house. For me, its just easier this way.

However, the AR15 is right by my bed as well, just in case things get ugly.

Next is to practice and total harden the security of my home. Which I already did.

So, should an AR15 be used as home defense. Yes, but it depends on your house geometry and your back stop. If you miss, make sure the bullet will not leave the house. Unless you live in the country.

Thanks all for the help
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Old 07-10-2018, 11:43 PM
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No birdshot..Buckshot at the least!
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Old 07-11-2018, 09:31 AM
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You can lead a horse to water...
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Old 07-11-2018, 10:54 PM
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After all this research, I decided my primary home defense is a shotgun with #6 birshot, because I can handle this better and for my situation, I don't have to worry about shells leaving the house. For me, its just easier this way.
Oh beans and rice. If you are going with birdshot, #6 is not what you want.

At least go towards the largest bird shot, size T, BB, 1 or 2.
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Old 07-11-2018, 11:01 PM
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I did learn not to chamber the same round multiple times but that may have only been true with the particular rifle he was using and the particular ammo. He wasn't clear about using different rounds or different rifles for that. Still as a general rule I will be trying to follow his advice.
All AR15 rifles have a floating firing pin. The firing pin strikes the primer every time a bullet is chambered. And this strike will leave a small indention on the primer, slightly damaging it. If you chamber the same round 10 or 20 times, you have significantly damaged the primer (and brass and bullet) and its very likely that the round wont fire when you need it to.

In a rather well known incident in the tactical community, a SWAT cop continuously chambered the top round in his magazine during raids. After the raid, he would eject the round and put it back in the top of his magazine. Well that round had been chambered 10 or 40 times (who knows) ....and he got into a shootout. His rifle went "click" instead of "bang". Because the primer was damaged due to his repeatedly chambering the same round.

Never chamber a defensive round more than twice. Once that has happened, rotate that round to the bottom of your magazine, or add it to your training ammo to be shot up at the range.
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Old 07-11-2018, 11:58 PM
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Oh beans and rice. If you are going with birdshot, #6 is not what you want.

At least go towards the largest bird shot, size T, BB, 1 or 2.
Thanks bubbatim,

I need to see if #4 or #1 is lethal as well.
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Old 07-12-2018, 10:25 AM
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Yesterday, I read about a retired Alabama LEO vacationing in a Colorado campground had to use his AR15s (yes, two AR15s) on a guy who was a threat and had shot at others. The retired LEO hit the suspect multiple times (once to the face) and the guy is still alive to file lawsuits.

I choose an S&W Governor as my bedside companion loaded with 00 buck and 45C.

I also have the hallway to the MBR lit with a constant blue nightlight and motion-senor white nightlight, along with another motion-sensor nightlight just inside our MBR door. There will be no doubt. POA is the groin (with good fortune a femoral artery hit will have the prep down for the Big Ten Count).
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Old 08-22-2018, 03:11 PM
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Ultimately, the most accurately you can place your rounds, the fewer chances of injury to innocents.

With an AR15+red dot, your rounds have a much higher percentage chance of hitting ONLY your intended target over buckshot or handgun round (long guns are easier to hit with).

Helps when you need to shoot fewer rounds at your target too to incapacitate. Given a choice between getting hit in the chest by a .45 or hollowpoint 5.56... I'll take the pistol round myself.

Gold Dot bonded are great for 2 legged threats.

---
personally, I think the 77gr OTM loads penetrate barriers really well, it's that they don't open up in gel AFTER penetrating that is the issue

but they will drill through intermediate barriers very well IME

----



Summarizing Doctor Roberts' choices results in the following list (make sure to read about the importance of barrier penetration just below the list):

If barrier penetration is NOT an important factor AND your rifle can stabilize them (minimum 1:9 twist rate):

Hornady 75gr OTM loads
Nosler 77gr OTM loads
Sierra 77gr SMK loads

If barrier penetration is NOT an important factor AND your rifle can't stabilize the heavy 70+ grain bullets:

Sierra 69gr SMK loads
Hornady 68gr OTM loads
Winchester 64gr JSP (RA223R2)
Federal 64gr TRU (223L)
Hornady 60gr JSP

If your rifle is 1:12 or slower twist rate or can only shoot lighter-weight bullets:

55gr Federal bonded JSP load (LE223T1 or P223T2)
Barnes 55gr TSX/TAC-X
50gr TSX loaded by Black Hills*

If barrier penetration IS an important factor:

62gr Federal Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (TBBC) bonded JSP (XM556FBIT3)*
64gr Winchester solid base bonded JSP (Q3313/RA556B)*
50gr TSX loaded by Black Hills*
Speer 55 & 64gr Gold Dot JSP (5.56)*
Federal 62gr Mk318 Mod0 (T556TNB1)*
62gr Federal bonded JSP Tactical (LE223T3)
55gr Federal bonded JSP load (Tactical––LE223T1 or identical Premium Rifle––P223T2)
Swift 75gr Scirocco (usually requires 1:7 twist)
60gr Nosler Partition JSP
Remington 62gr bonded JSP
Federal 55gr TSX (T223S)
Speer 55 & 64gr Gold Dot JSP (.223)
Federal 62gr Fusion JSP (Same construction as the Gold Dot)
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Old 08-22-2018, 04:46 PM
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I've been doing a lot of research on the matter because I wanted to go the same route for the mag capacity, home invasions are going to be 2-5 guys from what I've read, I don't think a shotgun will hold enough rounds. AR "pistols" are good for home defense, provided they are suppressed, otherwise you and your wife will be permanently deaf if shot indoors with a 556 or 223. AR pistols in 556 don't suppress very well, still too loud indoors and they fry suppressors so that leaves you with the 300 Black Out which was designed to suppresses, it's literally a "whisper" with sub sonic ammo or a 9mm AR pistol suppressed. A full size AR is too large for home defense I think. Get a 300 Black Out or 9mm and suppress it. I decided to keep my ol' 45 and a back-up 45 on my bedside table. I did get the AR pistol, but just for a range toy and SHTF gun.
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Old 08-24-2018, 04:38 PM
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AR pistols in 556 don't suppress very well... and they fry suppressors...
Boy, has someone ever been telling you some whoppers!

While suppressed AR 5.56 shorties are not "hearing safe" they are much quieter than unsuppressed ARs. They don'y fry suppressors.

Last edited by MistWolf; 08-24-2018 at 09:34 PM.
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Old 08-24-2018, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pineoak View Post
Doctor Roberts' choices results in the following list (make sure to read about the importance of barrier penetration just below the list):

If barrier penetration is NOT an important factor AND your rifle can stabilize them (minimum 1:9 twist rate):

Hornady 75gr OTM loads
The Hornaday will stabiize in 1-9, the 77gr loads are a case by case basis. The Hornaday isn't exclusively a target bullet.

Quote:
If barrier penetration is NOT an important factor AND your rifle can't stabilize the heavy 70+ grain bullets:

Sierra 69gr SMK loads
Hornady 68gr OTM loads
Winchester 64gr JSP (RA223R2)
Federal 64gr TRU (223L)
Hornady 60gr JSP
My personal experience with the Sierra 69 gr MK is that it won't pass through a 20+ lb groundhog if the bullet impacts the sternum at 150+ yards. While that did, in several cases, result in clean kills, defensive use of the bullet would seem to be highly questionable on larger critters. YMMV.

Last edited by WR Moore; 08-25-2018 at 10:03 AM.
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Old 08-24-2018, 10:26 PM
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Summarizing Doctor Roberts' choices results in the following list (make sure to read about the importance of barrier penetration just below the list):
...and brush before bed. Your source is a dentist.
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Old 08-25-2018, 08:11 PM
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Actually, I personally prefer to use #4 shot in 12 gage. It still seems to have great wound potential in across the room distances, and does not seem to carry a killing payload, after hitting and going through a wall.
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Old 08-26-2018, 08:50 AM
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...and brush before bed. Your source is a dentist.

Yes, and very well qualified in the firearms wound field. He worked with Dr. Fackler until his retirement. Here are some more facts about Gary Roberts.

About Gary Roberts
Dr. Roberts is currently on staff at a large teaching hospital and Level I Trauma center where he performs hospital dentistry and surgery. After completing his residency in 1989 while on active military duty, he studied at the Army Wound Ballistic Research Laboratory and became one of the first members of the International Wound Ballistic Association. Since then, he has been tasked with performing military, law enforcement, and privately funded independent wound ballistic testing and analysis. As a U.S. Navy Reserve officer from 1986 to 2008, he served on the Joint Service Wound Ballistic IPT, as well as being a consultant to the Joint FBI-USMC munitions testing program and the TSWG MURG program. He is frequently asked to provide wound ballistic technical assistance to numerous U.S. and allied SOF units and organizations. In addition, he has been a technical advisor to the Association of Firearms and Toolmark Examiners, as well as to a variety of Federal, State, and municipal law enforcement agencies. He has been a sworn Reserve Police Officer in the San Francisco Bay Area, where he now he serves in an LE training role.
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Old 08-26-2018, 09:14 AM
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There is a gun for every purpose. IMO, an AR is not a practical home defense choice, unless your surviving an apocalypse or live in a war zone.
It is however smart to have one+ in case of those and ...trying to see who hit the coke can at 200yds between you and your 12yr son(whomever) at the range is down right fun and gets you in sync with the weapon. Again just an opinion.
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Old 08-26-2018, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by NDFRC View Post
There is a gun for every purpose. IMO, an AR is not a practical home defense choice...
If an AR isn't a practical home defense choice, nothing is.
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Old 08-26-2018, 02:15 PM
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Default Great, except for penetration...

I would HAVE to have bullets that were made not to penetrate. I saw where a 9mm went through several walls. I would have an AR type rifle chambered in something with a wider choice of bullets and ammo.

To me, the ideal home defense gun would be a 9mm carbine.
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Old 08-26-2018, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by REM 3200 View Post
Yes, and very well qualified in the firearms wound field. He worked with Dr. Fackler
Whatever floats your boat...
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Old 08-27-2018, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
Boy, has someone ever been telling you some whoppers!

While suppressed AR 5.56 shorties are not "hearing safe" they are much quieter than unsuppressed ARs. They don'y fry suppressors.
Specifically, I was told that nobody warrants their suppressor in a 7.5" in 556 because of the high probability of frying them with repeated use? Not so? How many rounds do you have through your 7.5 suppressed barrel?
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Old 08-27-2018, 03:33 PM
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You said AR pistol, not 7.5" barrel. Most 5.56 AR pistols (and SBRs) have 11.5" barrels. Few have 7.5" barrels because of velocity & reliability issues.

You are correct that many 5.56 suppressors are not rated for 7.5" barrels. They are usually rated for barrels 10.5" or more.

I've got a couple thousand rounds through my suppressor, but it's used on 11.5" uppers.

Last edited by MistWolf; 08-27-2018 at 03:49 PM.
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Old 08-31-2018, 04:04 PM
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Oh my goodness, goodolboy, asked the simple question about whether or not the AR-15 with .223/5.56 ammunition was sufficient for home defense and what we devolve to is a discussion about whether or not he needs to use a silencer.

Can't anyone stick to the point?

The bottom line is, yes, the AR-15 loaded with 223/5.56 ammunition is adequate for self-defense. It can, under appropriate circumstances, penetrate a wall made solely of gypsum wallboard., but is unlikely to penetrate further with lethal effect. No guarantees can be made, but an AR, from the available tests, appears no more dangerous to people in other areas of the house than other riflers or handguns that might be used in its place,
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