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Old 06-24-2018, 07:11 PM
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Default I am Concerned about AR15 Home Defense

Hello,

Ok, everyone here have really helped me. Now to my next concern.

I will only use a AR15 for home defense, and I have been target practicing. I have red dot, I have quality flashlight mounted, its sight in for about 25 yards, i am good to go.

I have a serious questions regarding using my AR15 for home defense. I live in suburb area, in a brick home, just me and wife. Our neighbors home are nearby in about 5 yards away side by side and across the street.

I have my AR15 all setup with flashlight and red dot. I also have a SW M&P 9 mm with flashlight. I go to gun store to buy ammo, and the salesperson says "you know you can kill your neighbor if that AR15 bullet leave your house, and it will". I did not think of this and got really concerned.

I am scared that bullets will live my house and possible injury or kill my neighbor and get charged with murder. I really do no want that to happen.

1. Do you recommend AR15 for home defense? If no, is it because of too much penetration and hurt the neighbors?

2. What ammo do your recommend that will not penetrate and go to neighbor home and injury them?

Thank you kindly.

Last edited by goodoboy; 07-02-2018 at 01:19 AM.
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Old 06-24-2018, 07:26 PM
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No, I don't recommend an AR, but not for penetration. Your brick exterior will most likely stop a small high velocity lightweight bullet provided you aren't using Green tips or SS109 rounds. ( steel penetrator).

You really need a hand free for movement or opening doors, and a pistol is harder to wrestle away from you. The other factor is muzzle blast could stun you enough to be disoriented. Unless you are wearing tactical electronic hearing protectors.

Then you have the political fall out angle. Cops, prosecutors, and even neighbors get in on the "oh my God an assault rifle!" bandwagon and could possibly be a bad outcome. Shotguns and handguns are more benign in that regard.
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Old 06-24-2018, 07:34 PM
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Default Home defense

I think with The 9mm and shotgun you should be good to go.
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Old 06-24-2018, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medic15al View Post
No, I don't recommend an AR, but not for penetration. Your brick exterior will most likely stop a small high velocity lightweight bullet provided you aren't using Green tips or SS109 rounds. ( steel penetrator).

You really need a hand free for movement or opening doors, and a pistol is harder to wrestle away from you. The other factor is muzzle blast could stun you enough to be disoriented. Unless you are wearing tactical electronic hearing protectors.

Then you have the political fall out angle. Cops, prosecutors, and even neighbors get in on the "oh my God an assault rifle!" bandwagon and could possibly be a bad outcome. Shotguns and handguns are more benign in that regard.
Thank you medic15al,

I appreciate the response. I am thinking the 9mm and the shotgun (with the right ammo) will be good too. Lots of different response online. Like I said, I am concerned for my neighbors.

I do like the shotgun too with my flashlight.
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Old 06-24-2018, 07:45 PM
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Good to think about these kinds of issues beforehand.

Someone here will be able to recommend a .223/5.56 mm round that is more likely to fragment on a hard object like brick or a wood beam. Figuring out the most likely angles and directions that shots will be fired, and from there where a projectile may travel, is a good idea.

I recall that there were studies looking at the overpenetration potential of 9 mm vs. .223 longarms that showed there was less with the .223. I suspect this is why I think there are relatively few agencies using the 9 mm submachine gun currently.

A good idea to be very familiar with all your guns and train regularly. Stay safe!
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Old 06-24-2018, 07:54 PM
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Home defense and in your situation thinking intruders, inside your home right. Whats the longest shot you can take inside ? Inside my house it's 20 feet....you all sighted in for 25 yards and the 223 might have just a wee bit too much penetration....
I have a short barreled cylinder bore 12 gauge with #4 buckshot next to the night stand. I don't know if it's the best solution but it makes me feel mighty comfortable inside my house where the distances are short. And if 5 rounds of 12 ga. doesn't end it I have a model 58 in 41 magnum on the nightstand for back up.
Gary

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Old 06-24-2018, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murphydog View Post
Good to think about these kinds of issues beforehand.

Someone here will be able to recommend a .223/5.56 mm round that is more likely to fragment on a hard object like brick or a wood beam. Figuring out the most likely angles and directions that shots will be fired, and from there where a projectile may travel, is a good idea.

I recall that there were studies looking at the overpenetration potential of 9 mm vs. .223 longarms that showed there was less with the .223. I suspect this is why I think there are relatively few agencies using the 9 mm submachine gun currently.

A good idea to be very familiar with all your guns and train regularly. Stay safe!
Thanks murphydog
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Old 06-24-2018, 07:58 PM
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Brick or not, there must be windows somewhere. What if the line of fire lines up with the neighbor's window too?

We all want to be safe, but how can you ensure 100% that a stray projectile won't go where it isn't supposed to go?
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Old 06-24-2018, 08:00 PM
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Google xxx round penetration tests and you’ll be surprised how much a 9mm and even 00 buckshot will penetrate a standard residential wall. Know what’s behind your target and try and take that into consideration when protecting your home. Don’t spray and pray at an intruder, if you can’t see them then don’t shoot. Practice as always.
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Old 06-24-2018, 08:02 PM
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pump shotgun
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Old 06-24-2018, 08:08 PM
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Anyone have any thoughts about the new Hornady Critical Defense Rifle?

Hornady® Critical Defense® Rifle - YouTube
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Old 06-24-2018, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodoboy View Post
Hello,

Ok, everyone here have really helped me. Now to my next concern.

I will only use a AR15 for home defense, and I have been target practicing. I have red dot, I have quality flashlight mounted, its sight in for about 25 yards, i am good to go.

I have a serious questions regarding using my AR15 for home defense. I live in suburb area, in a brick home, just me and wife. Our neighbors home are nearby in about 5 yards away side by side and across the street.

I have my AR15 all setup with flashlight and red dot. My wife have a 12 gauge shot gun with flashlight. I also have a SW M&P 9 mm with flashlight. I go to gun store to buy ammo, and the salesperson says "you know you can kill your neighbor if that AR15 bullet leave your house, and it will". I did not think of this and got really concerned.

I am scared that bullets will live my house and possible injury or kill my neighbor and get charged with murder. I really do no want that to happen.

1. Do you recommend AR15 for home defense? If no, is it because of too much penetration and hurt the neighbors?

2. What ammo do your recommend that will not penetrate and go to neighbor home and injury them?

Thank you kindly.
Never believe the person behind the counter at the gun store.

This question is like any other. It is more complicated than the clerk made it out to be.

It is all about ammo selection.

Get 5.56 ammo in the JHP varmint load category, and you will penetrate LESS than 9mm pistol ammo.

This has been studied originally at Gunsite and reported to us on Jeff Cooper's original newsletter many years ago. More recently in a widely published report.

From one article on the subject:

"First up is this older article by R.K. Taubert, a retired FBI agent with over 20 years experience who conducted extensive counter-terrorism and weapons research while with the Bureau.

To quote Mr Taubert, (emphasis mine) ” … As a result of renewed law enforcement interest in the .223 round and in the newer weapons systems developed around it, the FBI recently subjected several various .223 caliber projectiles to 13 different ballistic tests and compared their performance to that of SMG-fired hollow point pistol bullets in 9mm, 10mm, and .40 S&W calibers.

“Bottom Line: In every test, with the exception of soft body armor, which none of the SMG fired rounds defeated, the .223 penetrated less on average than any of the pistol bullets.”

——-

And again on this page, there is testing by Gunsite Training Center Staff which found in a comparison of handgun calibers (9mm, .40 S&W, .22 LR, .45 ACP), and rifle caliber .223 (5.56) that:

“The only calibers which did NOT exit the “house” were .223 (5.56) soft point and hollow point loaded bullets.”"

Why “High Powered” 5.56 NATO/.223 AR-15 Ammo is Safer For Home Defense (FBI overpenetration testing) | Prepared Gun Owners

Here is the actual Taubert article:

About .223 Penetration

There are a number of other articles on the topic. Here is one:

An AR for Home Defense? Clay, Drywall, Raw Meat & A Myth Busted! - GunsAmerica Digest

Last edited by shawn mccarver; 06-24-2018 at 08:22 PM.
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Old 06-24-2018, 08:19 PM
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Look into the Hornady TAP Urban line... that is one of several bullets that is designed to expand and fragment. The AR with proper bullet selection is a good choice for home defense. As far as pistol vs. AR, the AR is going to be easier to shoot and get hits with due to being a shoulder fired weapon... just more stable. You should not be going through the house, opening doors and such without the proper training and a partner to help clear rooms in my opinion. Take a defensive position and call the police. If they take my TV in the living room, I have insurance... come down the hall way towards me and my family though is a different situation.
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Old 06-24-2018, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawn mccarver View Post
Never believe the person behind the counter at the gun store.

This question is like any other. It is more complicated than the clerk made it out to be.

It is all about ammo selection.

Get 5.56 ammo in the JHP varmint load category, and you will penetrate LESS than 9mm pistol ammo.

This has been studied originally at Gunsite and reported to us on Jeff Cooper's original newsletter many years ago. More recently in a widely published report.

From one article on the subject:

"First up is this older article by R.K. Taubert, a retired FBI agent with over 20 years experience who conducted extensive counter-terrorism and weapons research while with the Bureau.

To quote Mr Taubert, (emphasis mine) ” … As a result of renewed law enforcement interest in the .223 round and in the newer weapons systems developed around it, the FBI recently subjected several various .223 caliber projectiles to 13 different ballistic tests and compared their performance to that of SMG-fired hollow point pistol bullets in 9mm, 10mm, and .40 S&W calibers.

“Bottom Line: In every test, with the exception of soft body armor, which none of the SMG fired rounds defeated, the .223 penetrated less on average than any of the pistol bullets.”

——-

And again on this page, there is testing by Gunsite Training Center Staff which found in a comparison of handgun calibers (9mm, .40 S&W, .22 LR, .45 ACP), and rifle caliber .223 (5.56) that:

“The only calibers which did NOT exit the “house” were .223 (5.56) soft point and hollow point loaded bullets.”"

Why “High Powered” 5.56 NATO/.223 AR-15 Ammo is Safer For Home Defense (FBI overpenetration testing) | Prepared Gun Owners

Here is the actual Taubert article:

About .223 Penetration

There are a number of other articles on the topic. Here is one:

An AR for Home Defense? Clay, Drywall, Raw Meat & A Myth Busted! - GunsAmerica Digest
Thanks shawn mccarver,

Which ammo type do you recommend in the AR15 for less penetration and intruder stopping power?

Thanks
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Old 06-24-2018, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodoboy View Post
Thanks shawn mccarver,

Which ammo type do you recommend in the AR15 for less penetration and intruder stopping power?

Thanks
I am not picky, but if you can find that 45 grain varmint load, that one was always good. It might have been replaced.

Any varmint load is better than ball. The more current articles on the topic have more recently produced loads. The V-Max seems to do address the concerns expressed in your original post.
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Old 06-24-2018, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyphertext View Post
Look into the Hornady TAP Urban line... that is one of several bullets that is designed to expand and fragment. The AR with proper bullet selection is a good choice for home defense. As far as pistol vs. AR, the AR is going to be easier to shoot and get hits with due to being a shoulder fired weapon... just more stable. You should not be going through the house, opening doors and such without the proper training and a partner to help clear rooms in my opinion. Take a defensive position and call the police. If they take my TV in the living room, I have insurance... come down the hall way towards me and my family though is a different situation.
Thanks cyphertext,

What grade of Hornady TAP do you recommend.

The plan is to not run towards the enemy, we will hide with our weapons (AR and handgun) and let the intruder come to us. We will not confront the enemy or chase them.

The plan is to wait for them to enter the room and I fire off with my AR towards the door. behind the door is no glass windows and plenty of sheet rocks
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Old 06-24-2018, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodoboy View Post
Thanks cyphertext,

What grade of Hornady TAP do you recommend.
That is dependent upon your individual rifle. You will need to select a particular round and then shoot it with your rifle. What works well for my rifle may not work with yours.

If you have a Sport with the 1:9 twist either one of the TAP Urban offerings in 55 gr or 60 gr should work.
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Old 06-24-2018, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyphertext View Post
That is dependent upon your individual rifle. You will need to select a particular round and then shoot it with your rifle. What works well for my rifle may not work with yours.

If you have a Sport with the 1:9 twist either one of the TAP Urban offerings in 55 gr or 60 gr should work.
Thanks cyphertext,

Just to be sure I understand Urban offers AR15 ammo that does not penetrate sheetrock in the house?
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Old 06-24-2018, 09:37 PM
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I respect your desire to be adequately armed in the event of a home intrusion. You will probably garner as many opinions on this topic as there are forum members.

I too wrestled with the issue of over-penetration because I and my neighbors live in wood-frame houses. I own both an AR-15 and an M1-carbine, neither of which I consider suitable for home defense with so many innocents in close proximity. I feel fully protected with either a 9mm or .45 ACP at my bedside. However, I have studied my lanes of fire and I know in which directions I can't fire. If you go with the AR-15, consider an explosive varmint load which expands quickly and violently.

Often overlooked in a home defense scenario is the shotgun loaded with #4 buck. These pellets, each .22 caliber, are far less likely to penetrate several layers of home construction to reach neighbors. Even #4 shot, a turkey load, is super deadly at very close range and even less likely than #4 buck to cause havoc outside the home. I would avoid rifled slugs, "O" and "OO" buck in a suburban environment.

I'm not a lawyer but I think that if a bullet left your home to strike an innocent, you would not be charged with murder. Police officers have killed hundreds of bystanders over the years and are not charged.

Last edited by federali; 06-24-2018 at 09:38 PM.
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Old 06-24-2018, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
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Thanks cyphertext,

Just to be sure I understand Urban offers AR15 ammo that does not penetrate sheetrock in the house?
No... if it won't penetrate sheetrock, it won't stop a bad guy. What it should do though is start to fragment and lose energy after hitting sheetrock, so that it won't penetrate through the exterior brick and into your neighbors home.
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Old 06-24-2018, 09:56 PM
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Of the 3, I'd pick the 12 ga shotgun ( with a mounted light). Load it with #4 buck and it will have plenty of knockdown power without fears of over penetration.
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Old 06-24-2018, 09:59 PM
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Brick or not, there must be windows somewhere. What if the line of fire lines up with the neighbor's window too?

We all want to be safe, but how can you ensure 100% that a stray projectile won't go where it isn't supposed to go?
The only way to ensure 100 % that a stray projectile will not go where it isn't supposed to go is to never pull the trigger.
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Old 06-24-2018, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodoboy View Post
I go to gun store to buy ammo, and the salesperson says "you know you can kill your neighbor if that AR15 bullet leave your house, and it will".
The 5.56 has less penetration through house walls than pistol bullets, buckshot or slugs.

Quote:
My wife have a 12 gauge shot gun with flashlight.
Your wife will be safer and more effective with an AR than a shotgun. Why...?

Quote:
1. Do you recommend AR15 for home defense?
Yes.
1)Easier to place precise shots than a shotgun or pistol.
2)Much lower recoil than a shotgun.
3)Faster follow up shots.
4)Better capacity.
5)Easier to reload or clear malfunctions than a shotgun.
6)Good terminal performance even with FMJ ammo.

Last edited by MistWolf; 06-24-2018 at 11:44 PM.
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Old 06-24-2018, 11:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by federali View Post
I respect your desire to be adequately armed in the event of a home intrusion. You will probably garner as many opinions on this topic as there are forum members.

I too wrestled with the issue of over-penetration because I and my neighbors live in wood-frame houses. I own both an AR-15 and an M1-carbine, neither of which I consider suitable for home defense with so many innocents in close proximity. I feel fully protected with either a 9mm or .45 ACP at my bedside. However, I have studied my lanes of fire and I know in which directions I can't fire. If you go with the AR-15, consider an explosive varmint load which expands quickly and violently.

Often overlooked in a home defense scenario is the shotgun loaded with #4 buck. These pellets, each .22 caliber, are far less likely to penetrate several layers of home construction to reach neighbors. Even #4 shot, a turkey load, is super deadly at very close range and even less likely than #4 buck to cause havoc outside the home. I would avoid rifled slugs, "O" and "OO" buck in a suburban environment.

I'm not a lawyer but I think that if a bullet left your home to strike an innocent, you would not be charged with murder. Police officers have killed hundreds of bystanders over the years and are not charged.
federali,

I really appreciate your thoughtful and simple comments. I am currently reseraching the correct ammo for my shotgun as I am leaning toward the shotgun as primary defense for now, then AR15 (big maybe) (at a position where I know if I miss the intruder, there is about 4 layers of sheetrock) that bullet(s) has to go through to leave my house and injure someone. For me, its safety first for the innocent.

Also, there is lots of youtube videos proving that a shotgun using #4 (or more) birdshot ammo will not penetrate many walls and definitely not leave the house.

Thanks for the AR15 ammo suggestion.
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Old 06-24-2018, 11:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
The 5.56 has less penetration through house walls than pistol bullets, buckshot or slugs.
MistWolf,

Thanks for the response.

Can you please provide video evidence (youtube, etc.) that proves with visual evidence using an AR15 with XXX ammo will not penetrate through multiple sheetrocks?

I have clearly seen youtube videos of buckshots for shotgun not penetrating house walls. Nothing for AR15 yet.
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Old 06-24-2018, 11:35 PM
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No... if it won't penetrate sheetrock, it won't stop a bad guy. What it should do though is start to fragment and lose energy after hitting sheetrock, so that it won't penetrate through the exterior brick and into your neighbors home.
cyphertext,

Thanks for explaining. I understand now.
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Old 06-24-2018, 11:42 PM
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MistWolf,

Thanks for the response.

Can you please provide video evidence (youtube, etc.) that proves with visual evidence using an AR15 with XXX ammo will not penetrate through multiple sheetrocks?

I have clearly seen youtube videos of buckshots for shotgun not penetrating house walls. Nothing for AR15 yet.
Check out Box O' Truth for tests with shotgun, pistol and AR rounds through drywall.

It's not that I think the shotgun is a bad choice for house defense, it's just that the advantages of the AR over the shotgun are overwhelming.

Last edited by MistWolf; 06-24-2018 at 11:43 PM.
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Old 06-24-2018, 11:45 PM
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Of the 3, I'd pick the 12 ga shotgun ( with a mounted light). Load it with #4 buck and it will have plenty of knockdown power without fears of over penetration.

Thanks Wee Hooker, this is what I am leading to for first line of defense. 12 gauge, #4 buckshot or #2 birdshot. With a streamline flashlight with pressure switch.
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Old 06-24-2018, 11:47 PM
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Check out Box O' Truth for tests with shotgun, pistol and AR rounds through drywall.

It's not that I think the shotgun is a bad choice for house defense, it's just that the advantages of the AR over the shotgun are overwhelming.
Thanks MistWolf for the comments.

I definetly agree AR would be better over a shotgun, but not at the risk of me going to jail for harming or killing my neighbor. I am curious to what ammo they used during the test with that shotgun.
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Old 06-25-2018, 02:56 AM
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OP: Did you read the links from Shawn McCarver?, the posts by Cyphertext & MistWolf? Actual testing with real guns and real bullets? So if you did then why choose a shotgun? More recoil, Concussive effect, more difficult to fire follow up shot? I am not saying you are wrong, I just am trying to understand why when facts not opinions are presented, you seemed to follow opinion? Confusing. I hope neither you/your family ever have the need to defend yourself, and getting information on what may be the "safest" choice of defense is a good idea, but that still brings me back to facts VS opinion. Curiosity? Be Safe,
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Old 06-25-2018, 03:46 AM
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Brick or not, there must be windows somewhere. What if the line of fire lines up with the neighbor's window too?

We all want to be safe, but how can you ensure 100% that a stray projectile won't go where it isn't supposed to go?
Nobody can. But then they can't ensure a ricochet won't stray where it isn't supposed to go. This is why the responsible gun owner has liability insurance.

Check your homeowner's policy; most include some general liability coverage, but make sure it covers the civil liability associated with your gun's use. If not, buy third-party insurance. It is not legal to insure against criminal liability, so focus on protection against civil liability.

I know some "insurance" programs claim to protect against criminal liability, but that's actually illegal in most jurisdictions. The "insurance" programs are often programs in which the insurance company voluntarily provides trial support.
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Old 06-25-2018, 04:53 AM
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Train big dogs and get a/another short barreled shotgun in the interim.
I would leave a Security Six with two handloaded shot shells up front followed by four TFMJs behind whenever I wasn’t home.

New safer neighborhood is prudent and a good goal.... as I advised a buddy decades ago...... or sleep with a class III on your chest as opposed to under the bed.

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Old 06-25-2018, 10:55 AM
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Lotta good advice above and a few things better ignored. I'll try to summarize.

Drywall penetration-the only thing I've found to be stopped by drywall is a .177 pellet at ~300 f/s. Yes, anything suitable for defensive use, and some stuff that isn't, will penetrate drywall with enough energy left to do serious bodily injury. Do work out those lines of fire that create an unreasonable risk of exiting the house/endangering others in the house. Commit them to memory.

The light varmint bullets in .223/5.56 mm (40-50 gr) that do so well in limiting penetration also present problems when dealing with attackers who are on the large side. Also if you have to shoot through chance obstacles like an arm. Most of those who use the cartridge seriously have gone up in bullet weight and work hard on not missing. We're talking a range of feet generally.

The 1-9 inch twist will stabilize the Hornaday 75 gr HPBT. It does penetrate chance obstacles still perform properly.

Use of the rifle in a confined space without adequate hearing protection will result in permanent hearing damage. So will the other firearms, but the loss will not be as bad.

While I agree that the handgun is the most versatile choice, I've done some handgun drills with a carbine. Most folks will do those drills faster and with better shot placement with the carbine. HOWEVER, at really close range the handgun is a better choice.
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Old 06-25-2018, 12:16 PM
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I actually bought an AR because they are safer than handguns or shotguns when it comes to over-penetration. I use Hornady TAP Urban rounds and I live pretty far from my neighbors. I also have a safe zone to retreat to and a firing zone that is backed up by a wall that has dirt all the way up behind that. That's the kind of thing that will protect you in court too. You did the best you could to avoid shooting someone.
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Old 06-25-2018, 01:33 PM
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There is always frangible ammo, i don't know if i am allowed to post links in this forum so i won't, but if you go to ammoseek dot com and select rifle, 223 caliber and under advanced options under the INCLUDE field type FRANGIBLE, you will see one of the listings from brownells dot com toward the bottom of the list. The following is from the description:

"Hollow Point Frangible (HPF) projectiles separate on impact for devastating stopping power and 100% energy transfer to target. Lead-free and California-compliant, with lighter weight design to keep you on target when all hell breaks loose."

NOTE: I have never used or tested this stuff or seen this ammo tested, and if you decide to trust your life to it you should definitely test it out thoroughly.

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Old 06-25-2018, 05:01 PM
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There is always frangible ammo, i don't know if i am allowed to post links in this forum so i won't, but if you go to ammoseek dot com and select rifle, 223 caliber and under advanced options under the INCLUDE field type FRANGIBLE, you will see one of the listings from brownells dot com toward the bottom of the list. The following is from the description:

"Hollow Point Frangible (HPF) projectiles separate on impact for devastating stopping power and 100% energy transfer to target. Lead-free and California-compliant, with lighter weight design to keep you on target when all hell breaks loose."

NOTE: I have never used or tested this stuff or seen this ammo tested, and if you decide to trust your life to it you should definitely test it out thoroughly.
Thank you for this
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Old 06-25-2018, 05:25 PM
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Local law enforcement around here use AR type Carbines and 5.56 Speer Gold Dots. If I were to use a 5.56 AR for home defense, I would start there. (1) Someone performed some sort of at least cursory examination of options avalible. (2) Not being an expert, you put your trust in the product used by your local contabulary. Should be difficult for an ADA to second guess.
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Old 06-25-2018, 05:44 PM
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Soft penetration (wood, plaster, flesh, bone) is and has always been a function of bullet construction and momentum. Big, heavy, tough bullets like >= .375 bronze solids at medium velocities will smash through just about anything. Small projectiles that get their energy from velocity punch armor but not large quantities of soft barriers or tissue.

I personally wouldn't want ANY centerfire rifle for indoor work without prepping my ears first. Lots of country folks have a rifle or two by the door, but that's for threats/critters outside. I choose a long barreled 9mm pistol (Glock 34) myself.
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Old 06-25-2018, 08:00 PM
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I corresponded with an expert on terminal performance, Dr. GK Roberts. According to the tests he performed, frangible ammo is not good for self defense. Doc's tests also show that birdshot is a poor choice and #4 buckshot as a minimum.

goodoboy, I'm starting to feel like I'm casting pearls before swine. It's your money, it's your life. I've given a few fish and tried to point you in a direction to learn to fish for yourself. Read the following-

http://www.mlefiaa.org/files/ERPR/Te...erformance.pdf

Let your wife shoot the AR. Then let her shoot the shotgun and see which she prefers. I bet you a box of bullets, or shells, she'll prefer the recoil of the AR.
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Old 06-25-2018, 08:20 PM
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The "frangible" ammo mentioned above is powdered copper bonded into a bullet. It's expensive, hard to find and has caused some spectacular failures in Mforgeries (carbines) due to fragmentation of the bullet in the feed cycle. Brand of ammo in those cases unknown at this time (pre-retirement, could have told you). This ammo was originally developed to allow safe use of steel targets at close range in training. One noted manufacturer of the stuff features a video of one of their staff sawing a 4x4 in half with the ammo. There was at least one version specifically developed for use where putting holes in metal piping or pressure vessels would not be a good thing. Not gonna be drywall safe.

Supposedly, the Federal Ammo version exits drywall as very small fragments unlikely to cause serious bodily injury. Personally, I'd pass. I'd also pass on the never-heard-of-them at Brownells.

Now, Barnes makes a jacketed version of this type of bullet to ensure bullet integrity in the M4 feed cycle. It's called the RRLP for reduced ricochet, limited penetration. I've no idea who may load this bullet and if it's commercially available as loaded ammo. I expect someone loads it for the military. OTOH, it would appear to be California green as a lead free projectile.

I've loaded the bullet and tested it. It's accurate, stabilizes in the 1-9 twist, does no damage to rifle rated steel targets even at 25 yards and appears quite effective on tissue simulant. However, it tumbles but stays intact going through drywall.

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Old 06-25-2018, 08:27 PM
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I actually bought an AR because they are safer than handguns or shotguns when it comes to over-penetration.
Thanks C J,

Do you have video proof this with dry walls?
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Old 06-25-2018, 09:18 PM
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Local law enforcement around here use AR type Carbines and 5.56 Speer Gold Dots. If I were to use a 5.56 AR for home defense, I would start there. (1) Someone performed some sort of at least cursory examination of options avalible. (2) Not being an expert, you put your trust in the product used by your local contabulary. Should be difficult for an ADA to second guess.
Thanks for the help.

Just to be clear I understand. The cops use AR15 with 5.56 Speer Gold Dots?

The must buy this ammo because they know if they miss the target and bullet goes through sheetrock or wood, the bullet most likely not penetrate other walls.
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Old 06-25-2018, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
I corresponded with an expert on terminal performance, Dr. GK Roberts. According to the tests he performed, frangible ammo is not good for self defense. Doc's tests also show that birdshot is a poor choice and #4 buckshot as a minimum.

goodoboy, I'm starting to feel like I'm casting pearls before swine. It's your money, it's your life. I've given a few fish and tried to point you in a direction to learn to fish for yourself. Read the following-

http://www.mlefiaa.org/files/ERPR/Te...erformance.pdf

Let your wife shoot the AR. Then let her shoot the shotgun and see which she prefers. I bet you a box of bullets, or shells, she'll prefer the recoil of the AR.

Thanks I appreciate it. Yes, I am tired of talking about this stuff. Honestly.

Here is my plan and I am done with it. Its too complicated for me and I am tired of reading. I just want to know what bullet to buy to have less penetration of going through about 4 sheet rocks and possible exterior brick and travel and NOT hit the neighbor house about 20 yards away. Simple.

1. Go buy me a Mossberg 88 12 Guage. Get me streamlight flashlight, and red dot. Get maybe a #8 birdshot ammot or #4Buck shot. Both of these I know (I seen video) will not travel far through layers of shotgun.

2. Finish modifying my AR15 for home defense with flashlight, pressure switch, and good open view red dot. Buy some i-dont-know-yet home defense ammo.

3. Go to range with all 3 guns (pistol, 12 gauge, AR15) and practice and practice atleast once a month with wife.

4. Done.

If someone breaks in for now. They come in my door room, I blow them away with the shotgun first. Wife shoot the AR15 or 9mm if more intruders come in. The AR15 will be there loaded and ready to go if needed. Period. But the shotgun will be my primary home defense. The AR15 just sounds like tooo much work for researching the right bullet and tooo much risk and loud noise. But I already bought it so might as well enjoy it.

My backstop for this position is about 4 layers of sheet rock and possible exterior brick (depends on the shot position). Now I move on to the case of what if wife is cooking in kitchen and finding backstop for the 9mm.

Done.

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Old 06-25-2018, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by goodoboy View Post
Thanks for the help.

Just to be clear I understand. The cops use AR15 with 5.56 Speer Gold Dots?

The must buy this ammo because they know if they miss the target and bullet goes through sheetrock or wood, the bullet most likely not penetrate other walls.
Local Police use 5.56 Gold Dots in thier ARs. I can't say exactly why they chose Gold Dots over another ammo, but it does seem reasonable to follow thier lead if you are not an expert on the subject. And it makes your choices reasonable and appropriate should you ever have to defend your home.
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Old 06-25-2018, 10:57 PM
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Need some help with terminology.

Hornadyle.com - 55 gr. TAP URBAN(R)

1. What does "when the probability for barrier penetration is low" mean?

2. What does " prevents over penetration on non-barrier engagement mean? Does this mean less change of bullet exiting the body?

3. What does " this bullet a great choice when collateral risk is high." mean?

4. What does barrier penetration mean?

5. Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo On this link, what does "If barrier penetration is NOT an important factor AND your rifle can stabilize them" mean? and what does "If barrier penetration IS an important factor" mean?


Thanks

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Old 06-26-2018, 03:54 AM
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Thanks C J,

Do you have video proof this with dry walls?
This video shows the different characteristics of a 5.56, a 9mm, and buckshot. While the 5.56 penetrates "slightly" more than the 9mm and the buckshot it does a lot more damage in the first few walls which means it will do a lot more damage to tissue. Note the 9mm did not expand. The shotgun did more damage and I did formerly use a 12 ga. for home defense there are a couple of things that matter a lot IMO.

First the noise of a 5.56 is not going to be as loud as a 12 ga. which means you might actually get to keep your hearing "if" you have enough sense to be wearing very effective hearing protection in your house. There are ear muffs that actually amplify all noise except gun shot noise. I keep them right beside my gun. You will wish you had something if you fire a gun indoors, believe me. The 9mm will not be as effective at stopping an intruder as a 5.56. Plus you most likely have more of a problem with ricochets with a 9mm due to the fact they don't fragment like a 5.56 round.

Also I believe drywall is a very poor medium to test over penetration. It is very soft and fragile compared to the bricks on the outside of your home and whatever might possibly be on the house next door. Tests need to be done with bricks or other material where results may be very different. I found another video where a brick wall was simulated. Both the 9mm and the 5.56 failed to penetrate the brick wall. The 12 ga. with buckshot destroyed the wall and clearly went beyond but the test didn't show how much beyond. Still that was the only test I've ever seen where they used a brick wall simulation. I include a link to that test. I will say I think the buckshot they used was extremely powerful. It has a 1600 fps speed while most buckshot is under 1300 fps.

In my particular situation I have a safe room and a zone where firing is going to be very safe compared to firing in a house very close to another house. My house is built back into a hill so that the back of the house is surrounded by dirt. And the structure behind the walls is not just a stud wall with drywall. It's 12 inch concrete blocks and behind that is a big wall of dirt. The only way a bullet would escape would be to ricochet (which slows it down) and then penetrate my front wall which has a stone exterior. And the nearest house in the line of sight is about 250 yards away. It just isn't likely for me.

A 5.56 has other advantages over a shotgun. It holds 30 rounds over the 6 my shotgun holds and even with the ammo in a sidesaddle holder that only gives me 11 rounds. That certainly would likely be enough. But there's also the recoil. My wife can fire the AR with no problems. She isn't likely to do nearly as well with a 12 ga. using buckshot.

There is a lot to be said for a shotgun. And I do have shotguns. I also keep a .45 near where I sleep because it's easier to get access to it. But it will be used to defend my movement toward my AR. I have a bright light mounted on the AR also which should blind any attacker. But you never know when a truly psychotic person might attack you whether from natural causes or drug induced. People can be very hard to stop when they aren't aware they are being hurt. I once shot a rabid fox 8 times in yhr head at point blank range with a .22 and it walked away. I was literally using the barrel of the gun to keep it away from me and I had the barrel about an inch from it's head. I shot it twice more with a 20 ga. shotgun and it didn't even flinch much less die. Finally a 12 ga. killed it. I want something I can be sure will disable a person in a mental state close to that of the rabid fox. A sensible person will withdraw at the first shot. A crazy person is liable to do anything and both me and my wife need to be able to keep shooting until the job is done.

Here's the video of the drywall test I mentioned before.


Here's the video of the brick wall test.


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Old 06-26-2018, 11:40 AM
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Need some help with terminology.

Hornadyle.com - 55 gr. TAP URBAN(R)

1. What does "when the probability for barrier penetration is low" mean?
"Barrier" in this case and the one below refers to what's called 'chance barricades'. Interior walls, doors, glass, auto glass & sheet metal, plywood and limbs of the body. And "yes" to less chance of exiting the body.

2. What does " prevents over penetration on non-barrier engagement mean? Does this mean less change of bullet exiting the body?
Quote:
3. What does " this bullet a great choice when collateral risk is high." mean?
Collateral risk means innocent people are around.
Quote:
4. What does barrier penetration mean?
Means goes through the barriers explained in questions 1 & 2 and will still expand as designed. Note: the barriers in question are those used in the FBI ammo tests. These include auto glass, 3/4 inch plywood and a simulated auto body metal panel.
Quote:
5. Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo On this link, what does "If barrier penetration is NOT an important factor AND your rifle can stabilize them" mean? and what does "If barrier penetration IS an important factor" mean?
Stabilize means the rifling twist in your rifle will rotate the bullet at a rate that allows the bullet to fly straight. A rifling twist too slow for the length/weight of the bullet will result in the bullet tumbling in as little as 25 yards. Where it's gonna land is a guess. 1-9 rifling twist will stabilize the Horanaday 75 gr HPBT match bullet, it will NOT stabilize the A-Max version of the same bullet weight. Hornaday went to plastic tipped bullets in their current law enforcement ammunition. No idea if 1-9 twist will stabilize them (at 75 grains, 55 should be no problem). The plain HPBT is still available in another ammunition line.

If barrier penetration is not an issue suggests the bullet is not designed to penetrate barriers without degradation of performance.

Barrier blind is ammo you can use to shoot through the barriers and still effectively perform as designed.

DUDE! You're way overthinking this. Ain't no 5.56 ammo you're gonna find isn't gonna go through daywall. Even two complete walls (4 sheets drywall). NONE (that's not military specialty ammo) of it is gonna go through a brick.

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Old 06-26-2018, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by C J View Post
This video shows the different characteristics of a 5.56, a 9mm, and buckshot. While the 5.56 penetrates "slightly" more than the 9mm and the buckshot it does a lot more damage in the first few walls which means it will do a lot more damage to tissue. Note the 9mm did not expand. The shotgun did more damage and I did formerly use a 12 ga. for home defense there are a couple of things that matter a lot IMO.

First the noise of a 5.56 is not going to be as loud as a 12 ga. which means you might actually get to keep your hearing "if" you have enough sense to be wearing very effective hearing protection in your house. There are ear muffs that actually amplify all noise except gun shot noise. I keep them right beside my gun. You will wish you had something if you fire a gun indoors, believe me. The 9mm will not be as effective at stopping an intruder as a 5.56. Plus you most likely have more of a problem with ricochets with a 9mm due to the fact they don't fragment like a 5.56 round.

Also I believe drywall is a very poor medium to test over penetration. It is very soft and fragile compared to the bricks on the outside of your home and whatever might possibly be on the house next door. Tests need to be done with bricks or other material where results may be very different. I found another video where a brick wall was simulated. Both the 9mm and the 5.56 failed to penetrate the brick wall. The 12 ga. with buckshot destroyed the wall and clearly went beyond but the test didn't show how much beyond. Still that was the only test I've ever seen where they used a brick wall simulation. I include a link to that test. I will say I think the buckshot they used was extremely powerful. It has a 1600 fps speed while most buckshot is under 1300 fps.

In my particular situation I have a safe room and a zone where firing is going to be very safe compared to firing in a house very close to another house. My house is built back into a hill so that the back of the house is surrounded by dirt. And the structure behind the walls is not just a stud wall with drywall. It's 12 inch concrete blocks and behind that is a big wall of dirt. The only way a bullet would escape would be to ricochet (which slows it down) and then penetrate my front wall which has a stone exterior. And the nearest house in the line of sight is about 250 yards away. It just isn't likely for me.

A 5.56 has other advantages over a shotgun. It holds 30 rounds over the 6 my shotgun holds and even with the ammo in a sidesaddle holder that only gives me 11 rounds. That certainly would likely be enough. But there's also the recoil. My wife can fire the AR with no problems. She isn't likely to do nearly as well with a 12 ga. using buckshot.

There is a lot to be said for a shotgun. And I do have shotguns. I also keep a .45 near where I sleep because it's easier to get access to it. But it will be used to defend my movement toward my AR. I have a bright light mounted on the AR also which should blind any attacker. But you never know when a truly psychotic person might attack you whether from natural causes or drug induced. People can be very hard to stop when they aren't aware they are being hurt. I once shot a rabid fox 8 times in yhr head at point blank range with a .22 and it walked away. I was literally using the barrel of the gun to keep it away from me and I had the barrel about an inch from it's head. I shot it twice more with a 20 ga. shotgun and it didn't even flinch much less die. Finally a 12 ga. killed it. I want something I can be sure will disable a person in a mental state close to that of the rabid fox. A sensible person will withdraw at the first shot. A crazy person is liable to do anything and both me and my wife need to be able to keep shooting until the job is done.

Here's the video of the drywall test I mentioned before.

5.56, 12 gauge, and 9mm vs drywall in slow motion - YouTube

Here's the video of the brick wall test.

9mm vs AR 15 vs 12 Gauge... Brick Wall House Test - YouTube
Thank you so much CJ.

You mentioned vrry good points. My 17 year old daughter is upstairs on 2nd floor and wife and I are 1st floor. We all have ear plugs near by.

I do plan to get a shotgun, just because I want one and I have to leave my safe zone where I am with my ar15. It all depends on the situation. The shotgun will probably have birdshot or #4 buck shot ammo. Haven't decided yet as overpenetration incase of a miss shot occurs and leaves the window.

This week we will looking for safe zones to position ourselves incase intruder at night or day and a safe place to shoot where if we miss the shot the bullet will not over penerrata and leave the house. It's going to be some work because 9mm will be used as well. And we do have windows.
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Old 06-26-2018, 01:08 PM
goodoboy goodoboy is offline
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Originally Posted by WR Moore View Post
Collateral risk means innocent people are around.

Means goes through the barriers explained in questions 1 & 2 and will still expand as designed. Note: the barriers in question are those used in the FBI ammo tests. These include auto glass, 3/4 inch plywood and a simulated auto body metal panel.


Stabilize means the rifling twist in your rifle will rotate the bullet at a rate that allows the bullet to fly straight. A rifling twist too slow for the length/weight of the bullet will result in the bullet tumbling in as little as 25 yards. Where it's gonna land is a guess. 1-9 rifling twist will stabilize the Horanaday 75 gr HPBT match bullet, it will NOT stabilize the A-Max version of the same bullet weight. Hornaday went to plastic tipped bullets in their current law enforcement ammunition. No idea if 1-9 twist will stabilize them (at 75 grains, 55 should be no problem). The plain HPBT is still available in another ammunition line.

If barrier penetration is not an issue suggests the bullet is not designed to penetrate barriers without degradation of performance.

Barrier blind is ammo you can use to shoot through the barriers and still effectively perform as designed.

DUDE! You're way overthinking this. Ain't no 5.56 ammo you're gonna find isn't gonna go through daywall. Even two complete walls (4 sheets drywall). NONE (that's not military specialty ammo) of it is gonna go through a brick.
Thank you for the details. I want to be sure I thourghly understand barrier terminology so I can make good decisions and teach my family. I wasn't raised with guns.

Just to be sure I understand.

Low Barrier penetration means the bullet has low chance of exiting the body, wood, limb, wall, etc?

What's is non barriers?
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Old 06-26-2018, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by federali View Post
I respect your desire to be adequately armed in the event of a home intrusion. You will probably garner as many opinions on this topic as there are forum members.

I too wrestled with the issue of over-penetration because I and my neighbors live in wood-frame houses. I own both an AR-15 and an M1-carbine, neither of which I consider suitable for home defense with so many innocents in close proximity. I feel fully protected with either a 9mm or .45 ACP at my bedside. However, I have studied my lanes of fire and I know in which directions I can't fire. If you go with the AR-15, consider an explosive varmint load which expands quickly and violently.

Often overlooked in a home defense scenario is the shotgun loaded with #4 buck. These pellets, each .22 caliber, are far less likely to penetrate several layers of home construction to reach neighbors. Even #4 shot, a turkey load, is super deadly at very close range and even less likely than #4 buck to cause havoc outside the home. I would avoid rifled slugs, "O" and "OO" buck in a suburban environment.

I'm not a lawyer but I think that if a bullet left your home to strike an innocent, you would not be charged with murder. Police officers have killed hundreds of bystanders over the years and are not charged.
Tests routinely show even turkey shot at in home ranges penetrating up to 11 pieces of drywall.
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