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Old 10-05-2018, 08:12 PM
Mike1647 Mike1647 is offline
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Mounted a Leupold Rifleman 3-9X40 scope on my Sport using Leupold riser mounts. When I tried to bore sight using a laser cartridge I cannot move the POI up far enough to line up the laser and the cross hairs. I was using a distance of about 50 yards. What am I doing wrong? Is the mount too tall? It measures 1" from the rail to the bottom of the scope tube.
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Old 10-05-2018, 11:01 PM
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Are you turning the adjustment the correct way? If the cross hairs are high, you should be turning the adjustment in the "up" direction. I know it sounds counter intuitive, but this is how a scope works when trying to line up a laser bore sight.

When making adjustments with a scope you're moving the point of impact, not the reticle. Think of it as though you're trying to move the laser, not the reticle.
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Old 10-05-2018, 11:02 PM
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Did you verify that it's not a misaligned laser? it's real easy for those things to be just a little out of align, and that could result in you problem.
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Old 10-05-2018, 11:43 PM
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Yes the cross hairs were high and I was turning toward the "up" direction but ran out of adjustment before I was able to get it where it needed to be. I don't have another laser in 5.56 to compare to but I will try positioning it differently in the chamber.
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Old 10-06-2018, 12:04 AM
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Try the old school way.Reset your scope. Separate the upper and lower. Remove the bcg. Balance the upper on some bags and without touching anything, look down through the barrel and then through the scope. As long as everything is on paper, you're good to go for final adjustments. Fire 1 round and see where it hits. Unless something is screwed up, it'll be on paper

Although meant for longer ranges, this video is real good.

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Old 10-06-2018, 05:03 PM
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Yes the cross hairs were high and I was turning toward the "up" direction but ran out of adjustment before I was able to get it where it needed to be.
OK, just wanted to be sure because I've seen this mistake before.

The next is to call Leupold. They are a great company, but you did buy a cheap scope. It's not uncommon for scopes at this price point to be out of alignment. Seriously, call Leupold, they will make this right or give you the help you need to get it right.
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Old 10-06-2018, 05:45 PM
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Here's how'd I deal with the laser and optic.

Lase the target at "about 50 yards" if the laser dot is visible. Mark the target where the beam hits.

From the same position as your firearm was, adjust the scope to your mark, circle, etc.

If the scope can't do a POA on the mark, something is likely out of whack.

If possible, I'd first do 25-30 yards and advance the distance from there.

Better than 50/50, the laser should at least get you on paper. Once in a blue moon, they do better than getting you on paper.
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Old 10-07-2018, 12:58 AM
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I took Westie1's advice and did it the old school way. This also showed that I did not have the scope true vertical/horizontal. I was able to get the POI pretty close. I hope to try it out soon and see how it does. As far as contacting Leupold, should the vertical adjustment end up at close to the limit of travel because even now the adjustment is pretty close to the end of range.
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Old 10-07-2018, 10:39 AM
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Center the windage dial first. If the windage is too far to one side, it will limit elevation travel.
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Old 10-07-2018, 11:43 AM
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Generally, not always, the lower the price point of the scope the lower the internal adjustment range is - IMO.
I almost always use the Burris Signature rings to maximize my elevation range. Alternatively you can shim the rear of the scope for more elevation.
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Old 10-07-2018, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Westie1 View Post
Did you verify that it's not a misaligned laser? it's real easy for those things to be just a little out of align, and that could result in you problem.
Actually a bore laser can't be that far off. It won't shine down a bore and make a point down range if it's that far off. Some have to be adjusted to make them shine down the bore but they will just show up as blurred light patterns if they aren't shining directly down the bore.

BTW I would guess the sight is mounted too high on the OP's gun. For the record a 50 yard zero is too close IMO. Things may be much easier to work with at 100 yards and a .223. Zero at either 100 yards or 200 yards and compensate when aiming for shots at 50 yards when using a scope. A red dot is different of course.

Last edited by C J; 10-07-2018 at 04:47 PM.
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Old 10-07-2018, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
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I was able to get the POI pretty close.
The old school method is what I use and it works well. However, "pretty close" is not the goal. We're looking for perfect here.

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As far as contacting Leupold, should the vertical adjustment end up at close to the limit of travel because even now the adjustment is pretty close to the end of range.
It doesn't matter the make, model or price range, no adjustment should be at or even close to its limit when zeroing a scope.

Call Leupold. The call is free and they will help you. They will likely replace the scope for free. They are good people and know what they're doing better than any of us: (800) 538-7653
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Old 10-07-2018, 08:07 PM
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I will be talking to Leupold tomorrow just to be sure. I gave about $200 for this scope and I don't really consider that a "cheap scope". I know there are much more pricey scopes out there and you do get what you pay for, but to me a cheap scope is a $30 Tasco at Walmart. Thanks for all the suggestions.
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Old 10-07-2018, 10:37 PM
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Dumb question while I see you talking about the laser and the crosshairs can you zero the rifle so that bullet holes in the paper are where you aimed? If yes no problem. If no then call Leupold. Also if the scope is moving when you dial it you may have a bad mount.
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Old 10-08-2018, 11:42 AM
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Very helpful guy at Leupold said that i was not using enough distance in my bore-sighting, at least 50 or better yet 100 yards is required. The scope/mount combo is fine for the AR. He also said that on some AR applications a 20MOA mount helps in this situation. Next weekend more work to be done.
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Old 10-08-2018, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
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Very helpful guy at Leupold said that i was not using enough distance in my bore-sighting, at least 50 or better yet 100 yards is required. The scope/mount combo is fine for the AR.
I'm glad you called. Any scope worth having on an AR should be able to be zeroed at 50 yards. This equates to zeroing at ~225 yards as well. Still, a 100 yard zero might be more suitable to this scope and mount combination.

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He also said that on some AR applications a 20MOA mount helps in this situation. Next weekend more work to be done.
You shouldn't need a 20MOA mount for this application. The function of a 20MOA mount is to angle the scope down to allow more adjustment of the elevation. This is only ever needed for long range shooting i.e. greater than 1,000 yards.

This particular scope has 56MOA of elevation adjustment. This means that there is 28MOA of adjustment up or down. 1MOA at 50 yards is 1/2" so, this means the POI can be moved up 14" from zero. If mounted with quality rings (which you have), no scope should be further off than that regardless of price.

Further, if the POI is off by more than just a few inches with the elevation set to the middle, something is wrong with your scope.



I apologize for using the term "cheap" when talking about your scope. It's not a cheap scope in terms of quality. It is a quality scope. However, Leupold makes scopes from $230 to over $6K. In that range, you bought the lower end. Make no mistake, it's still a good scope and should work properly.

It's my belief that this will boil down to one of two things:
  • Broken scope
  • Improperly mounted
It's hard to mount the scope improperly when talking about a 1913 rail system (picatinny rail that all ARs have). So, I suspect you're doing everything right. It just happens that some scopes get knocked out of whack or are defective from the factory.


One last question; do you see the reticle move when you adjust it?
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Old 10-08-2018, 08:04 PM
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I agree with Rastoff as to you don't need a 20MOA rail. With typical 55gr loads, you have enough scope adjustment for around 700yds. Problem is, they go subsonic at around 650. And once they go subsonic, accuracy goes out the window.
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Old 10-08-2018, 10:33 PM
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No apology needed, I bought what I believed to be the best scope that I could afford. Yes I did see it moving until I reached the end of adjustment travel. He gave the 20 MOA suggestion as an "if all else fails" kind of thing.
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Old 10-08-2018, 11:22 PM
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You can also get that 20 MOA using Burris Signature Zee rings with a -10 insert up front, and a +10 in the back.
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Old 10-08-2018, 11:32 PM
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Best thing to do now is to shoot it and see where is actually prints on paper. You'll want to do the shooting off of some type of rest. That way the human element is removed. If you need to use most or all of the adjustments, there's an issue with the base/rings or the scope. Contact Leupold and get them to check the mount and scope. Things do come out of the factory defective every once in a while. i know of a report of a RPR that broke on the 2nd shot. It does happen.
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Old 10-09-2018, 12:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
Are you turning the adjustment the correct way? If the cross hairs are high, you should be turning the adjustment in the "up" direction. I know it sounds counter intuitive, but this is how a scope works when trying to line up a laser bore sight.

When making adjustments with a scope you're moving the point of impact, not the reticle. Think of it as though you're trying to move the laser, not the reticle.
DESPITE THIS BEING COUNTERINTUITIVE, THIS MAY SOLVE YOUR PROBLEM.....

IMHO---I SERIOUSLY DOUBT THAT YOUR LASER'S ALIGNMENT, OR LACK THEREOF, IS THE PROBLEM....

OF COURSE I COULD BE WRONG. THAT'S EXACTLY WHY I PREFACED MY REMARK WTH, IMHO......
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Old 10-10-2018, 02:15 AM
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DESPITE THIS BEING COUNTERINTUITIVE, THIS MAY SOLVE YOUR PROBLEM.....

IMHO---I SERIOUSLY DOUBT THAT YOUR LASER'S ALIGNMENT, OR LACK THEREOF, IS THE PROBLEM....

OF COURSE I COULD BE WRONG. THAT'S EXACTLY WHY I PREFACED MY REMARK WTH, IMHO......
See post #4.
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Old 10-10-2018, 04:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike1647 View Post
Mounted a Leupold Rifleman 3-9X40 scope on my Sport using Leupold riser mounts. When I tried to bore sight using a laser cartridge I cannot move the POI up far enough to line up the laser and the cross hairs. I was using a distance of about 50 yards. What am I doing wrong? Is the mount too tall? It measures 1" from the rail to the bottom of the scope tube.
The center of bore to center of scope is most likely around 2 inches. At 50 yards it will take a lot of adjustment to get to a zero.

So for a quick bore sight I would come back to 25 yards tops.
Aim the laser to be about 30 mm below the cross hairs point of aim.

This should easily get you on paper so you can finishing the zero at the range.
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Old 10-10-2018, 08:58 AM
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"Old School" method is best. It's what I've done for decades. I align the bore on an object at approx. 50 yards then adjust the scope to that object. Simple! Laser sighters are really inaccurate.
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Old 10-10-2018, 09:34 AM
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I agree with and use the old school bore alignment method.
I got a couple new rifles and 3 new scopes, then I played mix and match with a total of 6 rifles. Once I had the scopes mounted, I set each rifle on a rest setup with bolts out, (you could do same with just an upper as mentioned above). Then using a mark about 50 yds away, I centered mark looking down bore, then dialed the scope to the mark. Took them to the range. Each fired high at 100yds, and within a couple inches side to side, but it was easy to finish dialing them in. I didn't try to get them dead on the mark. Just wanted to hit the paper at 100 yds. because there is no way to trust anything but actual firing.

Most calibers I set about 3" high at 100yds and am then close at 200yds and a bit low at 300yds. Know where your rifle strikes at a given yardage then know your ballistic table, then its all range estimation, wind doping.

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Old 10-10-2018, 10:25 PM
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The center of bore to center of scope is most likely around 2 inches. At 50 yards it will take a lot of adjustment to get to a zero.
I'm surprised to keep hearing this on an AR forum. Zeroing at 50 yards is very common in the AR world.

The normal scope height (height over bore) for an AR is 2.75". This means that if they're both parallel, the bullet will impact ~2.75" (bullet drop is negligible at this distance) high at 50 yards. That's only 5.5MOA. For most scopes that's only 10-11 clicks, he has 28 available from the middle point. So, not really that much adjustment.
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Old 10-11-2018, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tozan View Post
The center of bore to center of scope is most likely around 2 inches. At 50 yards it will take a lot of adjustment to get to a zero.

So for a quick bore sight I would come back to 25 yards tops.
Aim the laser to be about 30 mm below the cross hairs point of aim.

This should easily get you on paper so you can finishing the zero at the range.
Took me 9 shots. 3 clicks up and 3 clicks left to zero at 50yds after bore sighting. For 100 yds Had to go down 6" for the 100 yd zero that I settled on.
It`s not rocket science.
Jim

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Old 10-11-2018, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
I'm surprised to keep hearing this on an AR forum. Zeroing at 50 yards is very common in the AR world.

The normal scope height (height over bore) for an AR is 2.75". This means that if they're both parallel, the bullet will impact ~2.75" (bullet drop is negligible at this distance) high at 50 yards. That's only 5.5MOA. For most scopes that's only 10-11 clicks, he has 28 available from the middle point. So, not really that much adjustment.
Same here. The info you quoted is wrong in my too long to care experiences. All of mine are 2.50 / 2.75. I zero at 50 meters and it's about as easy as it gets.

EDIT: Red dots / hard sights at 50 meters. Variable scopes at 100 meters.

Last edited by bamashooter; 10-12-2018 at 12:18 PM.
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Old Yesterday, 04:48 PM
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"Old School" method is best. It's what I've done for decades. I align the bore on an object at approx. 50 yards then adjust the scope to that object. Simple! Laser sighters are really inaccurate.
Using a laser is never anything except a starting point. Especially if you have a powerful scope just getting close to zero can be a problem. I use a laser to get my scopes close and then use the traditional method to zero after that. I've never seen any scope that was truly zeroed from just using a bore laser. Distance, power of the particular bullet you're using, and other factors come into play. The "only" way to get a scope zeroed is to use the old fashioned method if you want to shoot accurate.
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Old Yesterday, 11:37 PM
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The "only" way to get a scope zeroed is to use the old fashioned method if you want to shoot accurate.
Everyone agrees that only by actually shooting can you get a scope zeroed. What jake1945 meant by the "old school" method was how the bore sighting was done. This was by looking through the barrel.

The laser does the same thing, but I too prefer the look-through-the-bore method.
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Old Today, 12:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
I'm surprised to keep hearing this on an AR forum. Zeroing at 50 yards is very common in the AR world.

The normal scope height (height over bore) for an AR is 2.75". This means that if they're both parallel, the bullet will impact ~2.75" (bullet drop is negligible at this distance) high at 50 yards. That's only 5.5MOA. For most scopes that's only 10-11 clicks, he has 28 available from the middle point. So, not really that much adjustment.
I guess most of you missed the part according to the OP's post he is attempting to BORE sight with a laser at 50 yards not shooting at 50 yards. Big difference It would certainly be much easier to see a laser dot and adjust to it at 25 or even closer maybe even 20 t0 30 feet I prefer to do it inside my house... If his laser is way out of calibration the farther out you get the farther off it will be plus at 50 yards a lot of the laser bore sighters can not even be seen...

Once on the spot take it to the range and shoot and adjust. Like you said it is not rocket science... If you and the firearms are up to the task it should only take 3 rounds to verify at 50... I would then fine tune it at 100 or 200 or whatever you want your final zero to be...
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