Maybe you misunderstood what my post said... I said that the rifle with the detachable carry handle is not an A2. The A2 had the carry handle as part of the forging of the upper. Made no remark regarding the difference between A1 and A2.

Simply because some of us got lazy eyes, Myself included.

I'll agree with you Drm50.


For me, this is the best way to do AR 15. Don't want shorties, don't want flat tops, don't want accessory sight baggage. This '73 vintage Colt SP-1 was purchased in the late 1980s and has served my purposes ever since.

Truth is I don't much like the AR 15, but then truth is, I'm a fogy.

I'd rather have an M1 Carbine for a light rifle.


At 50 yards extra sighting equipment isn't really required on a rifle. I particularly want to do without it. Now if the ol' eyes start failing we'll revisit this attitude.

Woke up the Saturday morning of the last weekend of deer season here back in January not knowing that I was going deer hunting again one more time before the season closed. On a whim I used the M1 to take a doe at 56 steps that afternoon. It was no muss and no fuss, right through the heart.

I have a family member who retired from the Special Forces and did many tours using his weapon in combat and he used and trained people on the fanciest and most expensive rifles the US Government owns. He believed, and also trained his people to be extremely proficient with iron sights and that's what he always used on his weapon until the specific mission dictated a change, like at night time a red dot or night scope, or for out in the open desert a long range scope.

I’ve never seen a group of people like the AR crowd so worried about what somebody else wants. ARs are built from target grade to bare bones, ready for all the aftermarket stuff you can clamp on.
I want simple one to shoot a few varmits with. I’m not planning on doing any HALO jumps with Seal Teams. I don’t go to a range, just go down the road apiece. When it gets right down to it most of these ARs are range toys.

Good post; makes a lot of sense.

Well, this is an AR forum for discussion. You say you want a simple one, yet you don't. A simple one would be the M&P 15 Sport, fixed front sight, flip up rear... bare bones AR rifle. Just because it has a rail to add an optic does not mean that you must. Perfectly capable rifle for your use. I guarantee that the SEAL teams are not performing any HALO jumps with this rifle.

You have the requirement for the A2 rifle, which is no longer as popular and not regularly sold in the big box stores. That A2 upper is now a specialty rifle.

I don’t think I stuttered, I said exactly what I want. A2 type of Colt manufacture. I don’t see how it could be much simpler. Give me a break it’s not that technical. There is nothing to figure out or argue over. Give it a rest.

Then go buy one and quit griping about not being able to find it on a S&W forum!

Every suggestion that I have made will meet your "needs" that you have identified. If you want a specific configuration that is not S&W, you are in the wrong forum. The sign on the door says "Smith and Wesson M&P15 Rifles Dedicated to the Smith & Wesson M&P-15 Rifles". I don't see how it could be much simpler.

What's a HALO jump? Is that an Internet Warrior term or something righteous?

HALO = High Altitude Low Opening........ parachute jump..... free fall from +20,000 ft to open at <2000 ft....... generally in the dark of night!

Your altitudes may vary !!!!!!

Agreed. There's less confusion between eyes.

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And I have no plans of doing this with or without optics!

Okay, thanks for clearing up the definition of HALO. We've come a long way in this thread from a good choice of sights for fifty-yard shooting to parachuting from airplanes. Sounds scary to me.

This is funny considering how backwards it is.
You came to this thread about optics on an AR because you are thinking about getting an AR15 even though you've very clearly stated, "I’m not into any semi auto rifles so I’m not interested in AR with optics."

Everyone here has only stated reasons why they would want one sighting system or another for themselves. Or they have offered up options. Not one has "worried" about what you want.

In fact, you started your part of this thread by trying to insult us all. In this you start by saying anyone younger than Viet Nam age can't think. Then you insinuate that anyone who uses a sight, other than iron sights, can't shoot. Then you say that if someone paid $2,300 for a rifle, they're stupid. But we're the ones who are worried about what someone else wants?

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Rastoff makes an excellent point. I'm in the generation you threw rocks at.

I own several AR's in various configurations. From my High Power set up to my Home Defense rifle. I can clean prone targets with my "A4" looking standard rifle length and I'm a competitive two gun shooter with my home defense AR. I can make reliable hits out to 600 with my DMR set up or my high power rifle. Would you still call me a bad shot because I don't worship at the altar of bone stock iron and wood? I made well researched decisions when building based on what I wanted my rifles to do. I'm trying to share that experience with you and save you some money on a rifle that will work well for your stated purpose.

People have been trying to express what works well under constraints of time, match pressure, and distance. Sure its not 1:1 to the real world but it is experience from people who are well practiced with AR-15s. If you want to insult us for it and tell us we're dumb for finding what works best, that's on you I guess.

Hey, it's a forum and everyone who participates in a topic has an opinion they wish to share.

If we're all just going to get on here and glad-hand one another and sing Kum Ba Yah together then there's no opportunity for learning from differing viewpoints.

I agree with your thoughts. At 78 my eyes need some help, so I am not confident in my ability with irons in an emergency. I put a Aimpoint PRO red dot with a 2 moa dot on my AR 15. I figure any thing past 50 yards is going to be hard to convince the DA it was self defense. I don't need any magnification at 50yards. The zero is set to 50 yards on the bullet rise and again at approx. 230 yards on the way down. It's no more than 3 inches off the line of sight over those distances.

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Yeah, good luck finding a Colt A2 clone or similar in these times. Hell, it was hard to find one before all this **** happened, companies just are not making them anymore out of the box. Most people I've seen assemble their own clone style. Anyway.

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Still carrying my S&W 642

Getting back to the OT. While I'm not a big fan of the AR, I do own a M&P Sport II. I put a 1X4 scope on it simply because my old eyes can pick it up faster than irons. I generally keep it set at 1X, but the 4X is there if I need it.

And on all the other discussion here. IF, and that's a really big IF I were to get another AR, I'd like to have one set up like the old M-16A1 I used back in my Army days in the early 70s. Triangular handguard and all. No particular reason. Just for nostalgia's sake.

Honestly, for a close range defensive rifle, I prefer the M1 Carbine. However, in the proverbial SHTF scenario, AR ammo would be much easier to come by.

LOL - Thread did not to as OP intended.

I’ll toss in my two cents anyway ...

Only own one. A Colt 6920. Swapped the BUIS for a detachable carry handle & the forearm for a Magpul, then added a angled foregrip just because it felt better. Other than that - lots of extra mags and ammo.

You all may do as you wish with yours. Enjoy.


Edit: Oh, and a nylon two point sling. (not pictured)

Attached Images

6DDC6EF1-F0E7-49FE-A953-A0B29CFB1B63.jpg (75.9 KB, 38 views)

I appreciate all of your varied advice/opinions RE +- regarding scopes.
As a followup, now that I have acquired a few additional magazines for my new MP-15 Sport II, I am looking for advice regarding these "30rd Magpul" magazines:

1. How often should I consider emptying and "resting" each magazine? Week? Months? A year?
   
2. How about alternating 4-mags on while 4-mags are resting? Am I over thinking this?...
   
3. If I want to leave the magazine(s) loaded for extended lengths of time, should I only load say ~25 of the 30 capacity in order to preserve the spring?
   
4. Is it detrimental to leave a full 30rd magazine fully loaded permanently?
   

THANKS in advance!

1. Never
2. Yes, overthinking.
3. Load them up all the way if you want.
4. No, not detrimental at all.


I have scads of P-Mags. They're great. I leave my mags fully loaded all the time. Some have been loaded for years. None have ever failed me.

For the record, this applies to all mags, not just P-Mags. I have no doubt that someone will come here and say that leaving them loaded will spread the feed lips. That is a myth. Again, I leave mine loaded all the time and they all still work fine.


On another note, I actually prefer Lancer mags, but they're really expensive.

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Overthinking. Load them up, they will outlast you! Not scientific or based on fact, just personal opinion!

from an Army Ranger WarroirPoet, if going to be doing tac reloads download by one. Gives space for when slamming the mag in. Some clearance. Saw it on YouTube.

Another option: Load your mags with 30 (NOT 31!) rounds, then try to insert each one into your rifle under a closed bolt. If they ALL lock in easily, stick with 30. If even one is hard to lock in, remove one round from every mag so they have 29 each. Thus way, they will all load the same, reducing the chance for fumbling in a ‘special’ situation.

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Pmags have the space needed to insert on a closed bolt with 30 rounds in the magazine. Notice in the video, he loaded 31 in the magazine. Load the 30 round Pmag with 30 rounds and they work as designed.

,,,but I like open top V notch sights to get a good sight picture at close range. For fast work they are pretty tops in my book.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

If you are going to shoot two bullets every hour or so and have to carry it around, that's an ok place for a slim barrel.

I'm going to shoot at least 20 shots with any gun at the shooting range in fairly quick succession. I have a slim barreled 30-06 that is a great hunter but NOT a range gun on account of the whippy barrel. About 8-10 shots, max.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Unfortunately I have had issues with my 9mm PMags that came with my Sub-2K, in that the "17+1" Pmags only fit 16rd and the spring would bind (much like the above "31" loaded AR Pmag in the YouTube video). I had to revert back to using only S&W 17+1 9mm mags in my Sub-2K as a result.

Hence the reason I asked about the PMags that come with the Sport II AR15. I guess that I am a bit leery, considering my past PMag experience in 9mm Sub-2K was not the best.

That said above, the idea underlying the "tactical reload" scenario/situation sounds like the most believable reason for having/using a less-than full magazine when reloading with a closed bolt on an AR15. Not trying to sow discontent, but having an easier time reloading magazines sounds like a plus to me, even at the range.

Interesting thread! My take on the original OP's text is I agree 100%. However, as I get older my eyes are not what they used to be and having a scope beyond 50 yards is a big help. None of my rifles currently wears a scope although I do have a few. Maybe it's just me and my darned "will" keeping them off (old fart syndrome I guess). I've never tried red dots or the like, just didn't think I could trust them not to die on me in the field somewhere.

As to the AR topics - I don't own one but if I ever did it would be an AR-10. I've shot a few of both (AR-15 & 10) and don't think recoil is much of an issue. IMHO the AR-10 is better for utilitarian use, hunting and such, as well as defense. Of course if you reload that helps.

Funny story from one of my boys (men now) who is a Marine (the other is in the Army). He said in boot camp many of the guys who had shot rifles before never used iron sights growing up. They had always used scopes, red dots and the like. He thought it was pretty funny that he had to "coach" them on their use...

Yes, others have reported issues with Pmags for other platforms, but the Pmags for AR-15/M16 are good to go. SOCOMM, Marine Corps, and USAF have adopted the Gen 3 Pmag as the official magazine after extensive testing.

One part of the test included loading a full magazine on a closed bolt.

Marines get groundbreaking, unstoppable new rifle magazine | Fox News

I would test the magazines with a full load and see if you can seat the mag in the rifle with a closed bolt without too much effort. If you can't, the 29 round load out guideline would be the way to go. Chances are very slim that, that one round is going to make a difference. Even though I haven't had issues with my mags being fully loaded, I still use the 29 round load out because, Murphy's Law.


In the end, it's your rifle. I'm just some guy on the internet. You'll be the final judge on what to do or not do.

My Sport II came with a Gen 2 Pmag, so I ordered a handful of Gen 2 Pmag's as backup. Is there any real "functional" difference between Gen 2&3 in the Sport?

I posted this vid awhile back when there was discussion. If you are only using them in an AR style rifle, I don't see much difference. Mine are mostly gen 2.

Now that the thread seems to be well and truly swerved, another factor with mags locking under a closed bolt while fully loaded is the minute variations between different ARs or builds. In this video, Chuck Pressberg (retired Ranger) shows how different mags and rifles may not play well together.
This isn't to grind an axe, but to share information for consideration.

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If you haven't had an issue with at least some magazines, you're not shooting very much. The one issue I've had somewhat consistently with P-Mags is dropping free. They don't always drop free when the mag catch is pressed. Not the end of the world and won't prevent the gun from shooting. Neither does it significantly slow an emergency or tactical reload. Still, it is an issue.

Biggest difference in Gen 3 was a stop. Prevents over insertion of the mag when loading bolt open. Otherwise, no big deal. I have both and I'm not trading in my Gen 2 mags.

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The video shep854 is pretty much spot on... try your mags with your gun and then decide.

I have ran into that once... turned out to be an out of spec lower. it was with my dedicated .22lr AR, that has a standard, multi-caliber receiver. The .22lr magazine would drop free, but a Pmag and a GI mag would not. CMMG replaced the lower to correct it.

FWIW, if you plan on leaving your P-Mags loaded all the time, I'd install the dust covers that came with the mags. At least in those in reserve. This does several things: takes the strain off the feed lips and keeps dust and critters out of the magazines. If you're chamber emptly/loaded mag, the bolt is doing what the dust cover does.

It's also a good idea to have some 20 round mags around. You look at least slightly less like a Rambo wannabe. More importantly, if you load some mags with expanding bullet ammunition, it lets you identify those from the ball mags (30 round) by feel as well as visually.

My take......................as a civilian..........

10rd mags meet 99.99% of civilian AR needs/use....................

20rd mags ..... for SHTF....... (and 1st mag if in a vehicle.)

30rd mags .....for TEOTWAWKI.........


As an aside .........
I also have a Ruger Mini-14 ( the NRA short 16.2" heavy barrel model).... set up with Hogue gillie stock , 550 sling and 1-3x20 scope........ with a 10rd mag (factory) in the gun backed up with 2-4 20rd factory mags.....

It makes a low profile SHTF grab and go suburban/country rifle that fits behind the truck seat........................

I was using an XM16E1 for its intended purpose in 1968. A 6.5 pound rifle that could reliably hit a man's chest at 300 meters was and is a useful thing. M193 ball had a well deserved reputation for good terminal effect on thin skinned targets.

The M16A2 was within half a pound of the M14 and a pound heavier an AR-10. A tricked out M4 is nearly as heavy as a BAR. So, pays yer money and take yer choice, BUT I am still seeing more guys with grey hair shooting 600 yard targets "over the course" with iron sights while the 5.11 wearing young'uns doing mag dumps at 50 meters with 6.5x10 Barskas.

Oldtanker; I'm guessing your about 5-6 years older than me if you're still shooting irons at 600 yards ...... god bless you.

I shot irons on High School and College Rifle teams (67-75) about the same time you were in RSVN........ today I appreciate any help I can get beyond 100yds......

If you're comfortable with iron sights, I say go for it. Save your $$ if you don't need anything else. I have one AR set up with pop up irons and a red dot. The other with a 1-4x scope. Both are quick to acquire targets at the range you mentioned.

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

I have just been lucky. My Dad had exceptional eyesight and was in his eighties when he got his first set of corrective lenses. I got to 67 before I needed readers. But age affects night vision too. I appreciate what optics can do. If I was forced back into two-way live fire, I'd want a good military grade thermal sight. They work day or night and it's warm bodies that are dangerous, the cold and stiff ones have been overcome by events.

Cataracts run in our family..... grandfather,Dad and me...... I'm 20/15/ 20/20 today ......with lots of "readers" scattered around.

Be safe ..... be well

I have a red dot, co witnessed with the iron sights. Can't see those tiny holes beyond 50 yards anyway...

I am a professional metallurgist. The real answer is never. Magazines don't "take a set" from being left compressed. Cycling springs, and corrosion is what wears springs out. "Resting" springs does nothing. Overloading a spring can damage it, but any magazine made in the last 30 years by a decent manufacturer has an appropriate spring in it such that being loaded with 30 rounds will do no damage to it versus down loading.

In my neck of the woods.........

that better be one BIG threat at 50 yards, before I pull the trigger.

The Judge might throw the book at me if there was no real threat at that range.

Now, 30 feet might be a different story.

i used to not care for the AR platform but picked 1 up in a trade that changed my mind . i like the ones with removeable carry handle . i traded for a flat top AR 10 . put a scope on it and it shoots much better than me . i also put a set of 45 degree iron on it . i really like it . scope=long range turn rifle still shouldered 45 degrees and you are on irons. seemed that a good compromise to me . can hit what i shoot at with both . scope over 50 yrds iron inside 50 . kenny

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Too good