There hasn't been a post in the Ammo section since May 2019 so I guess everyone is stocked up!! I'm copying my post today from there as that section appears to be dead.

It's hard to find USA name brand ammo on any site or in local stores. I bought some local Montana reloads by "Granite Ammunition" that the shop owner said was "the best, you'll like it", at 84 cents a round.

All I could easily find online was TulAmmo (Russian) in steel case that runs about 78 cents a round including shipping. (Brass cased TulAmmo is on back order). Is this stuff any good? I'll probably be shooting the reload ammo first, but am curious about this Russian ammo and your experience with it. Thanks.

Tom

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Colonel, U. S. Army (Ret)

It's okay to shoot in most weapons. You won't really know until you try. I've never paid more than .18-.20/round for steel cased .223, but I haven't bought any in six months or so. I have shot their 9mm in pistols as well. It fired okay, but it made the slide feel like it was operating in "slow motion" compared to brass cased ammo. I only bought it once for 9mm, but I have shot several thousand rounds of .223 through a handful of ARs.

I'm just sitting on what I have until prices come down closer to "normal." I refuse to pay panic pricing for ammo unless it becomes absolutely necessary.

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Or something like that . . .

When i picked up my Sport 2, the only ammo available (while keeping my arms and legs lol) was some Tulammo Steel case. I only ran it one time so far but it functioned fine. And considering my first time shooting an AR (and using stock sights) I was happy with it’s “grouping”.
I still have some boxes and will use them up when able. I would prefer to only run brass and that is my intention moving forward, but in these crazy times I will also make some allowances so I can hit the range.

Steel cased ammo likely will do no harm to your gun as the steel is probably much softer than gun steel, but I think I would wait until better (brass cased) ammo became available.

Thanks guys. I'm a newbie to this AR (last time '68-69 in a far-off place) so I needed something. I'm on a notice list for some brass TulAmmo that comes with a range bag. But it's snowing pretty deep now in Montana so it'll be a while before I get to shoot this thing regardless what transpires.

Tom

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Colonel, U. S. Army (Ret)

If you shoot that steel cased stuff you have to really really clean your chamber. Older stuff had a lacquer coating that would melt when your rifle got hot.

Newer stuff has some sort of film finish that will also build up if you shoot enough.

I been shooting Russian ammo of most calibers. But my rifles have industrial hard chrome bores and chambers. Plus the cases are coated that probably cushions the chamber anyway.

The most accurate Russian ammo I found is Barnaul brand. But I shoot tula and wolf too.

I hope the ammo prices come down soon. The last 1,000rd case of 223 was $125, wolf. The 500rds of 45acp wolf was $62.

Tula is probably the weak sister of the Russian brands, I use a lot of Wolf Performance in both my AR and AKs and have never had a problem with it.

I've used both the lacquered and polymer cases without any noticeable problems either, cleaning guns after shooting is the best part of the day!

I can still get American Eagle for 60 cents at my LGS.

My co-worker at work got a new S&W M&P 15 last year. The number of failure to feed and stuck casings inside the chamber was borderline legendary. Yes...the chamber was clean and the different magazines were used. I had to "mortar" stuck/unfired rounds from the chamber on two occasions with the rifle.

The thing with the Russian and other import steel cased ammo that you need to be aware of is that the projectile is not lead with a copper jacket, it is lead with a bi-metal jacket made of mild steel and copper. This bi-metal jacket will wear your barrel faster.

Not all steel cased ammo is equal. Hornady has a steel cased ammo that uses the same projectile as their brass cased ammo, thus it is cheaper than their brass cased ammo and doesn't cause additional wear.

So now that you have started down this rabbit hole, you can find tons of arguments over steel cased ammo on the net, and how much it will reduce your barrel life.. If you look at your barrel as being a consumable and realize that with the cost savings of steel cased ammo over brass, you can replace the barrel and still be ahead on cost.

I shoot steel-cased Tula in my PTR-91. Two reasons, the fluted chamber can be rough on brass and the rifle flings empties into low earth orbit. For a reloader both are negatives. Some would argue that the fluted chamber marks are a non-issue. It truly becomes a non-issue when I can't recover the cases!

So that brings me to my next point. Why not take up reloading? Components are tough to find right now and when you do, they're pricey. But reloading does give you some fliexibility; you can judiciously use a variety of different components and you should be able to save some bucks once you get past the initial investment. Plus it would give you a pastime during the long cold winters.

Have shot A LOT of Tula .223, 9mm and .45.
It is 'plinking grade' ammo. Expect not much more than that and you'll not be disappointed.
I am leery of it after an incident last year. I was down to my last few rounds of it in .45 ACP, and had a VERY loud report from my Colt series 70, and the slide was locked 1/2 way back.

Found a ruptured case halfway out of the chamber - clearly a overcharged or maybe double-charged round. Case completely blown out at the unsupported section of the chamber.

Externally, the gun was OK., one grip screw did shear off. VZ grips took the abuse without breaking. Magazine and the few rounds in it were scorched.
The trigger bow was bent outwards and function was trashed and no proper sear engagement could take place.

It was all fixable - but I kept remembering running that same ammo in a beloved old M1937 Brazilian .45 revolver. It would have killed that one.

Still have a bunch of Tula and Brown Bear Rusky stuff in .223 and 9mm, but sorta glad my .45 in that is all gone. I'll gladly go back to loading my own for that.

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Ret'd LEO
SWCA #2275

A friend of mine gave me a bunch of Wolf steel cased 9mm and I shot it in my AR with no issues. I buy steel cased rifle ammo to shoot in my AK's, they were designed to shoot it. Have never purchased steel cased handgun ammo.

Read a good article at lucky gunner labs where they compared .223 ammo from Federal, Brown Bear, Wolf and Tula. You will probably stay away from steel cased, bi-metal ammo in your AR after reading it.

My first AR has over 8K rounds of 99%+ Russian steel case through it. I can count the amount of malfunctions it's had on one hand. While taking a carbine class a few years ago, I was #2 in the class in accuracy. Some rifles will absolutely hate it.

It is dirtier, and it is less accurate, but if your AR can't run it, something's wrong. As someone once told me, if it can't run steel, it doesn't deserve brass.

It will cause more wear & tear to your barrel, but the cost savings can justify it. When I notice a decrease in accuracy of my chrome lined barrel, I'll be way ahead of the game. I figured I've saved enough already to more than cover a replacement.

It also depends on the type of shooting you do. It is less accurate, and you'll probably notice a POI shift compared to the brass case you're using. Don't expect much better than 2"-4" groups at 100 yards. If it's mostly indoor range, or plinking type stuff you're doing, if you're missing, it's not the ammo.

Pre March 2020 prices, Lets say your steel cased ammo was $50 less per thousand, and your barrel has a fair bit of wear by 7,000 rounds down the tube, you have saved $350. That buys a NICE barrel. You stretch it to close to 9,000 rounds, you get a NICE new bolt too.

The barrel and bolt are wear items. Same with magazines. Accept this fact and THEN make your choices.

I though ahead, and got a spare 7.62x39 complete upper a year ago. 7.62x39 steel cased is still available for not too bad prices on back-order lots of places. If things get ugly, Steel cased will work just fine.

Have fired a tremendous amount of the Russian steel cased ammunition, both rifle and pistol. In AR-15 rifles, it has given accuracy equal to common popularly priced ball ammo whether domestic or import. Have never had a malfunction w/ it in a AR-15. Have fired .30-06 steel cased in my 1903 rifle. POA was POI at 200 yds. using the normal 200 yd. sight setting with the rear leaf sight raised. Fired 180 rounds at one stretch. Never a problem with function, firing or ejection. The bullet was IIRC 145 gr. FMJ which I thought odd. But, it shot as well as common ball ammo available. Have first I don't have any idea at all how much of the steel cased pistol ammunition in 1911, S&W 625-2, Glock 17, Glock 22, and RIA 1911. Have not ever had a issue with the ammunition. It has shot perfectly well in all my pistols. I have only used .45ACP in my 625-2. In every respect, it has been excellent ammunition. It tends to be a bit sooty compared to other brands of ammunition. But, that is no big deal. It cleans off with normal effort. HTH. Sincerely. bruce.

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There is NOTHING wrong with SCA. I shoot it in all of my AR's without ANY problems.
Go look around on YT and you will see A LOT of AR shooters shooting SCA.

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How many guns are too many?

I also believe that a nitrided barrel extracts easier than a std barrel, FWIW. Harder, and potentially smoother surface. And will last longer than an untreated barrel shooting Russian-based steel cased and bi-metal jacketed projectiles. Once again, a harder bore will wear longer.

With the money you save, you can shoot a lot more. Especially if it is training ammo.

The Armory finally is selling .223 Wolf Performance, 280 rounds for $369+ shipping in a range bag!!! Prices may never come down. That's the only "bulk" quantity that is available.

Tom

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Colonel, U. S. Army (Ret)

The less ductile steel case will allow more powder fouling to get into the chamber, so good chamber cleaning is really helpful.
I’ve had steel jam hard in both my nitrided Sport and chromed Kel-Tec SU16. After hammering the case out using a cleaning rod, a good chamber scrub left them both right as rain!

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I just bought 200 rounds of Red Army Standard .308 steel-cased ammo because I couldn't find anything else. I plan on using it in my old Winchester Model 100 - mostly for plinking and to sight in a scope. I haven't had the chance to test any of it, but if it works decently, I might order another hundred rounds or more.

Comrade ! Steel case ammo will shoot fine in your rifle.

As a personal rule, I do not shoot Russian or ChiCom ammo nor will I own a Winchester by Miroku. Never feed those who bite hands (or have bitten before), IMO.

As I said in another post:

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Steve

Grizzfan, You will find your recent AR a much different animal than a 1960s M16. My experience with russian ammo in ARs leads me to suggest that you keep the AR on a diet of recent US ammo and pick up a cheap beater SKS to shoot Russian ammo. Shoot the ammo each gun was designed for. Remember the jamamatic M16 from the 60s far a way place were due at least in part to mismatched ammo.

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SWCA 3417 HF 642 NRA-TC

That same $369 will get you 1K 7.62x39 rounds. Time to get a 7.62x39 upper for some versatility.

All the Russian ammo I shot my semi autos run like Swiss watches. In the past the Russian Barnaul ammo has been a tad more accurate, I believe today it’s the bear brand ammo. I shoot russian 45 acp, 223, 9 mm mak, 9 mm Luger ammo.

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Plant garlic in the fall

You can shoot steel ammo out of your rifle. Like mentioned above. Make sure you clean your rifle well after doing so because of the coatings the case can have on it. Also, do not leave a cartridge in the chamber after doing some shooting. If the rifle sits long enough, the coating can melt and then solidify when the barrel cools down effectively gluing the cartridge in the chamber. This may not happen all the time but it can happen and people have had a heck of a time getting the cartridge back out of the rifle.

Before I rid myself of everything AR related, I shot lots of it. Generally shot on par with Federal XM193 for accuracy,and shot very clean

As with so much "gun lore" the idea of steel-cased ammo being bad for your gun is decades old and largely without any basis in fact. The "lacquer melts and fouls the chamber" thing was true -- though only in tight-chambered guns after long strings of fire -- but was solved at least 30 years ago with polymer coatings that do not melt. As for bimetal bullets wearing the bore -- well, ALL bullets wear the bore. And while a bimetallic bullet wears the bore faster at first after an initial period of comparatively rapid wear the bore wear stabilizes, and once a barrel has reached that point it's life expectancy is exactly the same, regardless of whether the bullet used is copper-jacketed or bimetallic; in other words, a non-issue.

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Pisgah

Wolf steel shoots very dirty, but works fine. 1 mag wolf is like 500rds brass in terms of carbon.

Tula has been reported often enough to rip the base of the cartriage off, leaving the rest stuck in ur barrel.

But these are covid times, so shoot what u got for range ammo.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

A bit of extra care cleaning the chamber solved my stuck case problems with my chrome-lined SU16 and nitrided Sport II barrels.

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Not only is the powder used in the manufacture of Russian steel cased ammunition filthy, but the steel cases, which headspace on the cartridge case shoulder, don’t expand enough when fired in order to fully obturate the chamber, which results in filthy blowback that builds up quickly and lines the chamber walls.

Continuing to fire a reasonable number of rounds of steel cased ammunition in such a fouled chamber usually doesn’t present a problem; but if you switch to brass cased ammunition before thoroughly cleaning the chamber, it will obturate tightly against the fouling causing the rifle to jam.

ETA: Wolf is repackager and reseller of ammunition who buys it from several available sources and has it packaged as Wolf.

The Wolf branded ammunition currently sold may, in fact, be manufactured by either Barnaul or Tula/Ulyanovsk.

When folks say they prefer shooting “Wolf” rather than Tula or Barnaul they are actually shooting Barnaul or Tula/Ulyanovsk.

The Barnaul is the better of the two.

“Wolf Performance 223 Remington Ammo 55 Grain FMJ Steel Case Berdan Primed review offers the following information;Our specially formulated PolyFormance coating ensures smoother feeding and extraction. Now available in even more calibers for all of your recreational, competitive, and tactical shooting enjoyment.


“The manufacturer is "Tula Cartridge Works and Ulyanovsk Cartridge Works.”


Wolf Performance 223 Remington Ammo 55 Grain FMJ Steel Case 1000 Rounds

What Oldsalt66 describes is exactly what happened in my rifles.

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Thank you Oldsalt66 for explaining it better than I could have!

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Hold my beer and watch this!

Tim gives very good overview in this video:

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Excellent video that expels all the myths about steel cased.

He didn't address the fact that bimetal (steel-jacketed lead) bullets wear out barrels faster, but the money saved on the cheaper ammo should easily cover the cost of a new barrel.

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I've brought up the wear issue before a few times. But a chrome lined, or nitrided barrel should give longer wear than just a chrome moly phosphated barrel. Heck, get a spare upper for steel cased only.

And remember, the lower is the serialed part. They can just mail you an upper.

You would have to shoot a helluva lot of steel cased to get any noticeable wear. The cost savings would more than make up for a new barrel when/if you needed to replace it.

I recall something like 6.5K of bi-metal steel equals about 15K of standard jacketed bullets to shoot out an AR-15 barrel. And that is with real serious abuse at the range.

Pre-COVID pricing that savings buys you a new upper or several nice barrels and bolts.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/bra...el-cased-ammo/

"An important factor to consider is that in the real world, barrels are wear items. They will eventually become unserviceable if you shoot enough. If you plan on shooting a lot, don’t get too attached to your barrel – think of it as a thing that does a job for a certain period of time at a certain cost. When that time is up, change the barrel. The AR-15 is a modular platform, and barrel changes are quite simple."

Thanks! I was thinking of that test, but couldn't remember the site and link info.

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I truly think the youtube video and the LuckyGunner test pretty much give anyone the info they need for an informed choice.

My take is that steel cased is great for training and becoming familiar and confident with an AR 15 or AR 10 platform. If you want accuracy, you should go with quality brass, or better yet, load your own. And, most importantly, an out of the box 16" mass produced slender barrel AR 15 isn't really built for accuracy.

My rule of thumb was that if it was designed to fire steel cased ammo, then that's what I fire in it.

If it was designed to fire brass cased ammo, that's what I fire in it.

I understand that times being what they are you take what you can get.

But so far I'm good to go on ammo for a while.

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BTDT, Got The T-Shirt

For training and competition junkies where thousands of rounds a week were used in training and practice, steel was often the only affordable choice, provided the ammo was allowed at host ranges.
I've shot plenty of steel through my AR and SU16, but I also have decided to stick with brass as much as possible.
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Regarding accuracy, shooters have been spoiled by the easily free-floated AR pattern. Until recently, 1MOA was a grail attained only by elite, dedicated target shooters.
The military spec for AR-pattern rifles is still around 3 MOA, more than enough to reliably hit a human-size target out to 500m. This is pretty much the default for rack-grade civilian ARs, and to be honest most shooters can't shoot that well themselves...

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Back in the day.....I ran 2 ea 1440 round cases of steel cased 7.62x39 ( 1 Russian 1 German) through my Ruger Mini-30. Didn't hurt it at all. Still have the Mini and still have some Tula steel yet to shoot. I did do a major cleaning after each shoot that as I believe some of it was corrosive.

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S&W Accumulator

I tried 223 Wolf steel casing Russian ammunition, 50 round box, with my Ruger AR556 years ago. It fired and cycled okay but it was dirty, very, very dirty, the rifle looked like I had fired 500 rounds instead of 50, did I mention dirty?

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U.S. Coast Guard, retired CPO

It's nasty stuff alright...think of all the character you built mucking it out...

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That's what the engine cleaner wand is for at the self service car wash. That and Aero Simple Green. Only partially kidding about the car wash. But no dishwasher. That's for Glocks only.