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  #51  
Old 01-30-2010, 11:18 PM
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Why would anyone buy a Sigma instead of a Glock? Why would anyone buy a Sigma instead of a Glock? Why would anyone buy a Sigma instead of a Glock? Why would anyone buy a Sigma instead of a Glock? Why would anyone buy a Sigma instead of a Glock?  
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Originally Posted by Kanewpadle View Post
If you call telling the truth "bashing" then so be it. The man asked "why" and we gave him answers. No more, no less.
What is the "truth" exactely ? Sigmas are junk ? Keep drinking the kool aid ....
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  #52  
Old 01-30-2010, 11:24 PM
jppezz23 jppezz23 is offline
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I have one and owned 2 glocks before i like the sigma just as much as the glocks i had. I shoot just as well with the sigma. It's my opinoin but i would'nt spend the extra money on a glock.
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  #53  
Old 01-30-2010, 11:33 PM
rhodnett rhodnett is offline
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How about aesthetics? I owned a Glock 21 and got rid of it......felt like a 2X4 in my hand...looked like one too. Their reliability, etc. is well known, but life is too short to own an UGLY gun, and UUHGLY they are.
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  #54  
Old 01-31-2010, 12:33 AM
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Originally Posted by WildCard ZX6R View Post
What is the "truth" exactely ? Sigmas are junk ? Keep drinking the kool aid ....
Can you not READ. Or do you wish a confrontation?

I stated my opinion. The truth as I see it based on my experience with the Sigma. You like them. I don't. We are both entitled to our opinions and beliefs. You or anyone else for that matter, do not have the right to condemn me for what I believe. You can try but will fail.

I have sold many Sigma pistols to people that just HAD to have one simply because of the price. Some, not all, traded them in because they didn't like one thing or another about the gun. They eventually bought a Glock, M&P or the like. Those that LISTENED to my recommendations and actually took the time to dry fire one or rent one, quickly decided against buying one. The primary complaint was the trigger. Nobody in thier right mind can say that the Sigma trigger is NOT terrible.

My approach to selling guns, especially to first time buyers or those that only wanted one gun, was to make sure they made an informed and intelligent buy. I encouraged them to take thier time. I did not want them to come back pissed off because I sold them a gun knowing that there was a chance that they would not like it. If they made a smart buy and were happy, the entire industry as a whole wins a new shooter or gun enthusiast. They will eventually buy more guns, ammo, accessories etc.........

Some think the Sigma is a good starter gun because it's inexpensive. You ever try to teach someone to shoot a polymer framed pistol with such a crappy trigger? I bet not. New shooters learn quicker with a decent gun. That's a fact. Not opinion.

You need to keep drinking the kool aid because you obviously haven't had enough.

We can get along or not. It's up to you.

Last edited by Kanewpadle; 01-31-2010 at 12:36 AM.
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  #55  
Old 01-31-2010, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by rhodnett View Post
How about aesthetics? I owned a Glock 21 and got rid of it......felt like a 2X4 in my hand...looked like one too. Their reliability, etc. is well known, but life is too short to own an UGLY gun, and UUHGLY they are.
I always say the top of the Glock 21 looks like the top of an aircraft carrier.
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  #56  
Old 01-31-2010, 12:48 AM
solinvictus solinvictus is offline
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My brother had the Sigma in .40. I really, REALLY didn't like it. Somehow, the bore axis seemed off kilter to me and the frame seemed a little light for a .40. I've shot a 9mm Sigma and loved it, but I did find that the trigger was a little chunkier than a Glock.
To me, I'd pick up a Sigma in 9mm, but not .40. S&W has ( and regularly does ) run great incentives on the Sigma, so it seems a pretty easy proposition.
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  #57  
Old 01-31-2010, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by solinvictus View Post
My brother had the Sigma in .40. I really, REALLY didn't like it. Somehow, the bore axis seemed off kilter to me and the frame seemed a little light for a .40. I've shot a 9mm Sigma and loved it, but I did find that the trigger was a little chunkier than a Glock.
To me, I'd pick up a Sigma in 9mm, but not .40. S&W has ( and regularly does ) run great incentives on the Sigma, so it seems a pretty easy proposition.
As long as it works and you like it. That's what counts.
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  #58  
Old 01-31-2010, 02:02 AM
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I bought my Sigma over a G anything because of price. I have and had the bucks to buy the G. But the grip is awesome on the Sigma. I have biggish mits and it worked well. Even with my biggish hands the G's feel like a 2x4 on a 1x1 in my hand. Nothing natural about them. The trigger was utter **** on my pistol. I fixed it. Is it a tack driver in my hands???? NO. Is it the pistol or me? It's both! But for the money I paid for mine after rebate,,, $ for $ there is nothing out there that compete! It field strips easy. It cleans up like a charm and goes back together in nothing flat. With a tad of simple polishing on the barrel its a joy to look at. As a matter of fact. I have used the barrel of the Sigma to show folks what a great looking barrel should look like dirty and cleaned. While I'm not a LRN shooter. I have shot some through the pistol. Barrel cleaned right up.

Also as a reloader I enjoy having the Sigma around. I have put some pretty major reloads through it. No issues what so ever. Brass always comes out uniform and ready for the next reload. I pick up all brass at my range. I can tell when its G fired brass. That I take pliers to and recycle.

My Sigma is NOT my main HD weapon anymore. The duty has been put on my CZ-52. It is a tack driver with a great trigger. And with Wolf Gold HP's in it. It is way deadly.

Mine out of the box in my hands shot high right. After the trigger work I'm low left. Bottom line I think I'm having memory muscle problems concerning it. The barrel is round and the bore is beautiful!

The Sigma is a hell of a deal at $300 or under! Throw in the rebate and it is the best deal on the market right now be it 9mm or .40. I plan on buying .40 even though I don't like the round.

To date I have bought 2 ea. 9mm and 1 ea. .40. I cleaned up and modded one of the 9's and the 40's and resold them with paper and made a few bucks.

I have put well over 2k rounds through my Sigma. While I can get it on paper it seems to shine for me when plinking. It plays well with me. It hasn't met a coke can that it can't kill.

Glock,,,, naw for the money and few short coming Sigma has, verses some of G's short comings in my hand. Sigma 1,,,, G, 0. The CZ-52 is a 10!!! And it cost me nothing.
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  #59  
Old 01-31-2010, 02:36 AM
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WildCard ZX6R WildCard ZX6R is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanewpadle View Post
Can you not READ. Or do you wish a confrontation?

I stated my opinion. The truth as I see it based on my experience with the Sigma. You like them. I don't. We are both entitled to our opinions and beliefs. You or anyone else for that matter, do not have the right to condemn me for what I believe. You can try but will fail.
Truth and opinions are not the same last time i checked. Maybe i missed the memo where yours was the exception.

Its not about liking the gun or not, bashing it based on your opinion and touting it as the "truth" is the issue here.

Quote:

I have sold many Sigma pistols to people that just HAD to have one simply because of the price. Some, not all, traded them in because they didn't like one thing or another about the gun. They eventually bought a Glock, M&P or the like. Those that LISTENED to my recommendations and actually took the time to dry fire one or rent one, quickly decided against buying one. The primary complaint was the trigger. Nobody in thier right mind can say that the Sigma trigger is NOT terrible.
My sigma and the other two that i owned have not been bad at all, certainly no worse than any DAO pistol i've ever fired and not really much heavier than my G19 i had.

Maybe theres alot of people with weak hands ?

Quote:
My approach to selling guns, especially to first time buyers or those that only wanted one gun, was to make sure they made an informed and intelligent buy. I encouraged them to take thier time. I did not want them to come back pissed off because I sold them a gun knowing that there was a chance that they would not like it. If they made a smart buy and were happy, the entire industry as a whole wins a new shooter or gun enthusiast. They will eventually buy more guns, ammo, accessories etc.........

Some think the Sigma is a good starter gun because it's inexpensive. You ever try to teach someone to shoot a polymer framed pistol with such a crappy trigger? I bet not. New shooters learn quicker with a decent gun. That's a fact. Not opinion.
Did i ever say anything to the contrary ? Maybe you are the one who needs to learn to read. In fact i agree with you other than your claim that the trigger is "terrible".

The sigma is a good defensive and combat pistol, not a dilettante's remote controlled paper punch.

Quote:
You need to keep drinking the kool aid because you obviously haven't had enough.


Quote:
We can get along or not. It's up to you.


Don't matter to me, you're already on the ignore list. Your self-righteous attitude in this thread has been enough to convince me that you are not someone who i would like to associate with.
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  #60  
Old 01-31-2010, 03:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WildCard ZX6R View Post
Truth and opinions are not the same last time i checked. Maybe i missed the memo where yours was the exception.

Its not about liking the gun or not, bashing it based on your opinion and touting it as the "truth" is the issue here.



My sigma and the other two that i owned have not been bad at all, certainly no worse than any DAO pistol i've ever fired and not really much heavier than my G19 i had.

Maybe theres alot of people with weak hands ?



Did i ever say anything to the contrary ? Maybe you are the one who needs to learn to read. In fact i agree with you other than your claim that the trigger is "terrible".

The sigma is a good defensive and combat pistol, not a dilettante's remote controlled paper punch.









Don't matter to me, you're already on the ignore list. Your self-righteous attitude in this thread has been enough to convince me that you are not someone who i would like to associate with.
Fine with me. I have found most of your posts contentious, immature, and provoking at best. I guess that's how some get thier kicks. You must fall into that group of people.

My posts do not attack or provoke anyone. They may offend some. And they may not. If someone is offended, they can respond in an intelligent, dignified manner. We can discuss it. Or we can go to PM's. You however seem to have a problem communicating in such a manner.

Disagree with me. That's fine. But don't provoke me. I'll respond in the same manner each and every time.

Self righteous? No. I simply want to share my experience and knowledge with those who are willing to listen. If you don't want to listen then don't. Move to the next thread.

As far as your "ignore" list, I'm sure it's quite long with your attitude.

Go your way, I'll go mine. Enough said on this.
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  #61  
Old 01-31-2010, 04:15 AM
blastfact blastfact is offline
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I bought my Sigma over a G anything because of price. I have and had the bucks to buy the G. But the grip is awesome on the Sigma. I have biggish mits and it worked well. Even with my biggish hands the G's feel like a 2x4 on a 1x1 in my hand. Nothing natural about them. The trigger was utter **** on my pistol. I fixed it. Is it a tack driver in my hands???? NO. Is it the pistol or me? It's both! But for the money I paid for mine after rebate,,, $ for $ there is nothing out there that compete! It field strips easy. It cleans up like a charm and goes back together in nothing flat. With a tad of simple polishing on the barrel its a joy to look at. As a matter of fact. I have used the barrel of the Sigma to show folks what a great looking barrel should look like dirty and cleaned. While I'm not a LRN shooter. I have shot some through the pistol. Barrel cleaned right up.

Also as a reloader I enjoy having the Sigma around. I have put some pretty major reloads through it. No issues what so ever. Brass always comes out uniform and ready for the next reload. I pick up all brass at my range. I can tell when its G fired brass. That I take pliers to and recycle.

My Sigma is NOT my main HD weapon anymore. The duty has been put on my CZ-52. It is a tack driver with a great trigger. And with Wolf Gold HP's in it. It is way deadly.

Mine out of the box in my hands shot high right. After the trigger work I'm low left. Bottom line I think I'm having memory muscle problems concerning it. The barrel is round and the bore is beautiful!

The Sigma is a hell of a deal at $300 or under! Throw in the rebate and it is the best deal on the market right now be it 9mm or .40. I plan on buying .40 even though I don't like the round.

To date I have bought 2 ea. 9mm and 1 ea. .40. I cleaned up and modded one of the 9's and the 40's and resold them with paper and made a few bucks.

I have put well over 2k rounds through my Sigma. While I can get it on paper it seems to shine for me when plinking. It plays well with me. It hasn't met a coke can that it can't kill.

Glock,,,, naw for the money and few short coming Sigma has, verses some of G's short comings in my hand. Sigma 1,,,, G, 0. The CZ-52 is a 10!!! And it cost me nothing.
I really should have not posted this.

To complicate things I'm looking for a quick lite pistol carbine survive case of weapon and ammo. A small package and large ammo load. My gut is telling me a Kel-tec SUB 2k in G 9mm with a G-19 and mags in a nice hard case. I could do a S&W .40 package. But it seems much more complex. With over all bad mag selection. The reality is ,,, the pistol is a good 25 yard weapon. The fold up plastic carbine is a solid 7 yard weapon if not a 100 yard,,, I can kill you or your be eating dirt! In this mode of operation the G platform is better than the S&W.

I honestly don't mean to muddy the water here. But one might want to think combo here. And honestly,,,, With combo I would have to leave S&W over all. Think about it! 44 mag is my fav. round. If I went out today and purchased a .44 mag combo it would be from Ruger. Or I would split up a .357, .40 or maybe a 9mm. Or how about some of the Beretta offerings?

And lest we not talk about Hi-Point. What ground does a person have to stand on high ground concerning a cheap,,, works for them Hi? One of my buddy's has a 9mm Hi and it's a brick of never fail fire power. He is going to by a carbine from them for a third what a Sigma cost. And they have the same warranty???? Screw the G,,,, What about Hi or Kel-Tec, or other company's.

Think about it: Is the Sigma while cheap and a good pistol. Can you expand in it?
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  #62  
Old 01-31-2010, 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by aterry33 View Post
It has been widely reported that S&W copied the Glock design and called it a Sigma, then had to reach a settlement with Glock when Glock sued them for infringement.

So what is the allure of a Sigma? Why not just get a Glock instead? I hear people asking this all the time.
I have been shooting for over forty years. During that time I have owned Brownings, Sigs, H&K's, Kimbers, CZ's, Kahrs, S&W's, KelTecs, Colts, Tauruses, and a Springfield. I have never owned a Glock, because I can't shoot them well. The grip angle is wrong for me, and they don't point well. Plus, in the last few years, I have moved to 40 and 45 cal, and I would never trust a Glock over 9mm. My son is a Lt. on a Police force, and they have had two incidents with Glock 40's, one resulting in a permanent injury. They switched to S&W.

Truthfully, I bought the Sigma for a car gun because it was inexpensive, but it has performed so well [after a trigger job], that I can't leave it in the glove box. It is now in my carry and shooting rotation with the Sigs, Kahrs, Tauruses, and KelTec.
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  #63  
Old 01-31-2010, 11:20 AM
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$$$

Otherwise, if you've got enough for a Glock, get an M&P instead
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  #64  
Old 01-31-2010, 02:03 PM
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Well here's my story, when my wife and I qualified for our ccl, we used a gun the instructor had supplied. Yep Sigma 40VE. She went first. Standing behind her she held that baby as tho she was the James Bond girl at the intro to the movie where she stands with her legs apart and you see Mr Bond and he turns and shoots at you. Then she pulled the trigger for the first shots, turned to me with this orgasmic look on her face and said "this is mine!" Finished the range trip and qualified top of the class. What's a man to do when she looks at you like that? 2-40VE's later and no problems, she won't get rid of it for anything, even me......
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  #65  
Old 01-31-2010, 07:22 PM
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Think about it: Is the Sigma while cheap and a good pistol. Can you expand in it? ............................

It's just a tool. Better than some, not as good as others..
Sure the trigger is not the greatest, but I can hit what I'm aiming
at, so it's really a non issue to me.
I actually kind of prefer the stiffer trigger because I feel it's slightly
safer than one that is on the easy side being it has no external
safety.
To me, it's a $400 pistol that I got for $250.. No more, no less.
It does the job I bought it for, so that's all I really care about.
If I thought it was junk, I would say so, but I don't. I think it's a
decent pistol as long as the trigger is not an issue. If it is, one
would probably be better off with something else.
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  #66  
Old 01-31-2010, 07:29 PM
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$$$

Otherwise, if you've got enough for a Glock, get an M&P instead
Yep.. That's why I said if I were to spend $500+, it wouldn't be
either one.. It would probably be an M&P .45 if I were buying a
plastic pistol.
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  #67  
Old 01-31-2010, 10:30 PM
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I have a *** sigma 1st generation in 40 cal. I would be happy to trade it for a glock.
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  #68  
Old 02-01-2010, 12:42 PM
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I thought we were all on the same side??? I'll stop back for round two!
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  #69  
Old 02-01-2010, 04:30 PM
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I'll stir in this hornet's nest for a bit. Did this question arise because someone was really curious, or was it a Glock owner trying to discretely state that their Glock is better than a S&W Sigma? Couldn't the average gun buff have sat down, thought about it for 10 minutes, and come up with the answers themselves? Maybe, uhhh, price point, ergonomics, and say..... maybe..... because they like Smith&Wesson products. Why not compare apples to apples and put the Glock up against the M&P as others have suggested? I owned a G17 around '94 or '95 and traded it on a S&W 4003. The Glock did not have the proper grip angle for my hand/shooting style. I now have an M&P 40, and I think it's great, but I don't go looking to pick fights with Glock owners because I think they own a lesser product. As far as this whole "copy" thing goes, Glock invented a plastic framed handgun with steel inserts. Congratulations! Now, if we could only turn that scary genius towards curing AIDS or stopping world hunger, the earth would be a much better place. I can only speculate that S&W could have probably made something along those lines before 1983 (or whenever Glock started production). Colt had the technology to make plastic rifles way before that. My guess is that S&W didn't think Americans would fall for such a thing. That was their only mistake. I don't see the M&P as a copy of a Glock. I see it as S&W beating Glock at it's own game. Glock owners, you have a great service pistol. That's awesome. But don't rattle the chains of the guys and gals on this forum. You don't see me going on the Glock forum and saying "Why buy a S&W revolver when you can buy a.........oh wait." Or, "why buy a S&W 22lr pistol when you can buy a..........opps!". How about a 1911 style handgun, an AR platform rifle, an AR style 22lr? Hello, anyone? Where was Glock in 1954 when S&W released the M39, in late '70/'71 when the M59 hit the civilian market? Oh, that's right, I guess those first gen Smith's are just a double action copy of the '35 Browning Hi-Power. Apples to apples. And if you are truly interested, I can provide an honest assessment of why I like the M&P better than the Glock (for essentially the same money). But leave the Sigma out of it. It's like sending your big brother to beat up one of your classmates.
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Old 02-01-2010, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aterry33 View Post
It has been widely reported that S&W copied the Glock design and called it a Sigma, then had to reach a settlement with Glock when Glock sued them for infringement.

So what is the allure of a Sigma? Why not just get a Glock instead? I hear people asking this all the time.
The Sigma looks a lot better, feels better in the hand and not everyone and his gangsta wannabe, yuppie, follow the crowd sister has one.

Otherwise I don't know!?!
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  #71  
Old 02-01-2010, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swabby View Post
As far as this whole "copy" thing goes, Glock invented a plastic framed handgun with steel inserts. Congratulations! .
Actually HK beat Glock with the poly framed handgun by 12 years.



Heckler & Koch VP70 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 02-01-2010, 09:00 PM
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I do like some of the smith auto's but to me glock is the ak of the handgun world ....it just runs . I am a 9mm fan and think you would be hard pressed to find another 9 that will go through the torture test glocks have been put through over the many years of production without having to go back and make reliability changes . Also I would put sigs and the cz75 over the smith
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Old 02-01-2010, 09:22 PM
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I think the Sigs are the creme de la creme in the auto handgun world. I have yet to read a bad review about them. I will hopefully be a proud owner of one sometime in the future.
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Old 02-01-2010, 11:16 PM
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I am not a Glock or polymer pistol fan by any strech but I have shot both.To me the Sigma has a more comfortable grip and trigger,The magazines are metal,it is made in the USA,and it is priced@ around 1/2 that of Glock with free magazine rebates also.The M+P is a vast improvement over the Sigma in the respect that you have multiple grip configurations,and you have removed the reason why Glock probably holds the title for the most accidental discharges world wide which is that you have to dry fire it to break it down.Because of the breakdown method for the Sigma and Glock I advise my students against getting either as a first semi-auto until the new shooter gains more experience .If the shooter still wants a polymer gun I advise they consider the M+P because you don't touch the trigger to break it down and ,God Forbid,if there is a round inadvertently left in chamber the magazine release safety is there also to guard against a Accidental Discharge.........Mike

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Old 02-02-2010, 12:02 AM
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...and you have removed the reason why Glock probably holds the title for the most accidental discharges world wide which is that you have to dry fire it to break it down.Because of the breakdown method for the Sigma and Glock I advise my students against getting either as a first semi-auto...
The SW9VE was my second SA. (My first was a CZ 82, which I love!) I got the Sigma because of price. When I went down to the 'shop' and held one, it really was perfect for me. Not really knowing any better, I felt that the trigger pull was not too bad. I have had great 'service' from it, and while my sons have had a couple of FTE, and one stove pipe, I have had none. As far as shooting off a round while dry firing it to strip it down, I ALWAYS follow the rule; consider all guns loaded, check that the mag is out and check the chamber. Having sons that I am teaching firearm safety, I absolutely can not get lax. Anyway, I like the Sigma, although I was checking prices on a GLOCK compact. Can't have enough, huh?
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Old 02-02-2010, 12:36 AM
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...I should also add that I have been looking at M&Ps, as well as the Sig P250 Compact. And while I am at it, I like the CZ 75 and '75 Compact. Anybody else with this problem? I still feel good about owning the SW9VE, and have no regrets.
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Old 02-02-2010, 09:01 AM
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Glock probably holds the title for the most accidental discharges world wide which is that you have to dry fire it to break it
Negligent as opposed to accidental discharge would in my opinion be correct. Itís the incompetence of the end user in regard to the manual of arms rather than the design of the weapon. It is a weapon which fails to register with some end users.
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Old 02-02-2010, 10:21 AM
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I think the Sigs are the creme de la creme in the auto handgun world. I have yet to read a bad review about them. I will hopefully be a proud owner of one sometime in the future.
When I first started buying guns, all those long years ago, I went straight for the Sigs

Bought a 226 and then a 220. Real nice. Great fit and finish.

Unfortunately they just don't fit my hand well and I was never able to shoot well with them.

I'm sure that I could find another model of Sig that would fit my hand better but I am on a plastic pistol kick for now. (I have an XD Sub Compact and a Ruger LCP on order.)

I've learned that life's too short to have the best only because it is the best and not because it's what works best for me. My SW9VE fits my hand better.


wow...now I'm just rambling.

Need more coffee...
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  #79  
Old 02-02-2010, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by WildCard ZX6R View Post
We went over this in anther thread didn't we ?

Springer 1911 = 1911 Copy
Cimarron 1873 = Peacemaker Copy
Tangfolio Witness = CZ-75 Copy

Sigma = Not a Glock Copy

The day someone shows me a sigma with some glock parts stuffed inside and it works i will retract my statement. Sure S&W kinda ripped off the concept but Glock stole almost all their features from previous designs anyway.

Otherwise the fact that Glock sued them for patent infringement means nothing. If you patent a part or idea and use it in a refrigerator and someone uses the same part or idea in a toaster did they copy you ? But you can still sue them for patent infringement. Besides the fact that Smith and Glock settled out of court so there was no "Judge agreeing" with anyone.
The examples cited are all long out of patent protection. The Glock design was not out of patent protection. Had S&W gotten a license from Glock, they would have had no problems. Had they not infringed on Glock patents, they would not have settled with Glock. S&W was not sued for the equivalent of copying a idea, i.e., refrigerator. They were sued for patent infringement. That is why they were taken to court and that is why they ended up having to settle with Glock by changing their design and paying damages. If Glock were to start producing copies of the S&W M-10/13 that infringed on S&W patents, Glock would face the same legal consequences.
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Old 02-02-2010, 11:12 AM
bubba626 bubba626 is offline
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Default any one having problems eith sigma?

I am pretty new to guns and although the sigma is not my first purchase is could quilify as my first as I have not bought nor owned another pistol in over 15 years. i purchased my sigma 1-2-2010 and have since shot 275 shells through it(my girlfriend and I that is). the first 75 with no problems, then the next 150 I had 3 malfunctions(jams), 2 on shell loading into barrel and 1 with kick out of spent shell. I then cleaned the gun after that shooting,i did not field strip it but did take my time cleaning it completly. the last 50 shells through it this past weekend, it had 8 malfunctions(mixed). I field stripped it last night and cleaned it completly, is this a common problem? is there something I could do to make this more reliable? i bought this for home defense/ conceal carry. we take our class this saturday and I am going to RENT us BOTH a gun as I now have no confidence it shooting it. we purchased this gun do to its feel in BOTH our hands, caliber, looks, and more importantly at the time MONEY. We are planning on buying 2 more pistols in the very near future as money allows for conceal carry/backup. but now I am leaning to another brand as I can't just keep dropping cash until I find the one(two) right for us. thanks for any help with this issue.

also is there any gunsmithing someone could do to make it a better gun? trigger pull is heavy, specially for my 4'10" 105# girlfriend. any recommendations for a good gun for her?
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Old 02-02-2010, 01:07 PM
CR00258 CR00258 is offline
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I had a Glock and then I bought a SW9VE. The S & W feels much better in my hand than the glock. I even have better accuracy with the S & W. People may bash S & W but in my opinion, the Glock is no better (or worse) than a S & W. I have shot around 2000 rounds through my S & W with no problems. I think its all a matter of preference.
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Old 02-02-2010, 01:49 PM
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WildCard ZX6R WildCard ZX6R is offline
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The examples cited are all long out of patent protection. The Glock design was not out of patent protection. Had S&W gotten a license from Glock, they would have had no problems. Had they not infringed on Glock patents, they would not have settled with Glock. S&W was not sued for the equivalent of copying a idea, i.e., refrigerator. They were sued for patent infringement. That is why they were taken to court and that is why they ended up having to settle with Glock by changing their design and paying damages. If Glock were to start producing copies of the S&W M-10/13 that infringed on S&W patents, Glock would face the same legal consequences.
Reading comprehension isn't your strongest suit huh ? SW was sued for patent infringement on one (1) of glocks patents. Hence the modification of the area below the "sear" (whatever that was). SW paid some monetary compensation for infringing on the patent (singular, not plural) and everyone went merrily along on their own way. Why only one patent ? Probably because that was the only original design in the glock.

Again it doesn't matter if the patented design being copied is used in a refrigerator or toaster. The end product is irrelevant.

Thus the lawsuit still does not prove the Sigma is a Glock "copy". Lets look at what the definition of "copy" is :

Quote:
cop∑y (kp)
n. pl. cop∑ies
1. An imitation or reproduction of an original; a duplicate: a copy of a painting; made two copies of the letter.
2. One specimen or example of a printed text or picture: an autographed copy of a novel.
3. Material, such as a manuscript, that is to be set in type.
4. The words to be printed or spoken in an advertisement.
5. Suitable source material for journalism: Celebrities make good copy.
Like I said, show me some Glock parts stuffed into a sigma and you might have some basis for your argument.

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Old 02-02-2010, 01:50 PM
Jim PHL Jim PHL is online now
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Originally Posted by bubba626 View Post
I field stripped it last night and cleaned it completly, is this a common problem? is there something I could do to make this more reliable?
Bubba; First off, welcome to this forum. you can learn a lot about your S+W and a lot of other guns here.

I have zero direct experience with the Sigma but I will say this; upon buying a new in the box gun I would field strip, clean it and lube it before firing it for the first time. There are sometimes "machining leftovers" (tiny bits of plastic and/or metal) in there from the production process and it's also your first chance to inspect for any other obvious defects. I would also field strip after every range session at least the first few sessions anyway for the same reason. It is quick and easy to do this and even if it doesn't require a thorough cleaning this often, a field strip and at least a quick wipe down is not a bad idea. (I personally try to field strip, clean and lube after every range session but that's not necessary with all guns and from my reading here not the case with the Sigma - and please - not trying to turn this thread into a "How many rounds can you shoot between cleanings" thread, just trying to help Bubba.)

Your post says you field stripped it last night and completely cleaned it. Have you shot it since then and had the same results? If so, maybe a call to S+W customer service is in order. I'd give them a chance before you turn your back on the gun. The Sigma has developed quite a loyal following.

Good Luck
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Old 02-02-2010, 05:42 PM
GypsmJim GypsmJim is offline
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OK, I really don't want to hijack this thread, but it looks like most of the heated discussions are over, so I'll jump in now.

Also, my only objective here is to learn something, not to bash.

I was planning to buy a Glock .45 this year. Why? Because its one of the few manufacturers I don't own. Also, maybe becasue of the hype on how good they are (atleast that's what my local gun guys say). I ended up finding a NIB pre-27, a nice Victory, and well, my interest in S&W was rekindled and my finances now precluded the Glock. I already had a 57, a 41 and a 39-2, so I'm not a stranger to S&W.

I was not familiar with the Sigma, however, so I'd like to gain a little insight.

I DO own a Ruger P-90 and a newer P-345 and I could speak very highly of both. So, my question is how do the Glock and Sigma compare to these two? When I say "compare", I mean accuracy, reliability, shootability, etc.

All I am asking for is opinions, and if anybody hates the Rugers I won't be offended.
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Old 02-02-2010, 07:20 PM
brucev brucev is online now
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The examples cited are all long out of patent protection. The Glock design was not out of patent protection. Had S&W gotten a license from Glock, they would have had no problems. Had they not infringed on Glock patents, they would not have settled with Glock. S&W was not sued for the equivalent of copying a idea, i.e., refrigerator. They were sued for patent infringement. That is why they were taken to court and that is why they ended up having to settle with Glock by changing their design and paying damages. If Glock were to start producing copies of the S&W M-10/13 that infringed on S&W patents, Glock would face the same legal consequences.

Reading comprehension isn't your strongest suit huh ? SW was sued for patent infringement on one (1) of glocks patents. Hence the modification of the area below the "sear" (whatever that was). SW paid some monetary compensation for infringing on the patent (singular, not plural) and everyone went merrily along on their own way. Why only one patent ? Probably because that was the only original design in the glock.

Again it doesn't matter if the patented design being copied is used in a refrigerator or toaster. The end product is irrelevant.

Thus the lawsuit still does not prove the Sigma is a Glock "copy". Lets look at what the definition of "copy" is :

Quote:
cop∑y (kp)
n. pl. cop∑ies
1. An imitation or reproduction of an original; a duplicate: a copy of a painting; made two copies of the letter.
2. One specimen or example of a printed text or picture: an autographed copy of a novel.
3. Material, such as a manuscript, that is to be set in type.
4. The words to be printed or spoken in an advertisement.
5. Suitable source material for journalism: Celebrities make good copy.

Like I said, show me some Glock parts stuffed into a sigma and you might have some basis for your argument.
Last edited by WildCard ZX6R; Today at 05:58 PM.

In using the plural it is obvious that I committed an egregious factual error. Let me here beg the pardon of all concerned for this inexcusable error. I will most assuredly do my best to see to it that such a error is not again repeated.

When it comes to opinions, you are of course welcomed to your own opinion. Like noses, everyone has one. And if it is your opinion that S&W did not copy Glock, then you are fully entitled to your opinion, even if you are wrong. For if S&W had not considered their position at law untenable, they would not have settled with Glock by changing their design and paying money damages.

It is said that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. In that light it must then be considered a most sincere compliment that S&W would simply imitate what Glock had developed. Further it is not hard to figure out why Glock parts are not found in Sigma pistols. Glock parts would have to be modified to fit the Sigma frame. The result would be the equivalent of a Frankenstiein Special which would not come close to that perfection which is the hallmark of Glock. Sincerely. brucev.
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Old 02-02-2010, 07:30 PM
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I am pretty new to guns and although the sigma is not my first purchase is could quilify as my first as I have not bought nor owned another pistol in over 15 years. i purchased my sigma 1-2-2010 and have since shot 275 shells through it(my girlfriend and I that is). the first 75 with no problems, then the next 150 I had 3 malfunctions(jams), 2 on shell loading into barrel and 1 with kick out of spent shell. I then cleaned the gun after that shooting,i did not field strip it but did take my time cleaning it completly. the last 50 shells through it this past weekend, it had 8 malfunctions(mixed). I field stripped it last night and cleaned it completly, is this a common problem? is there something I could do to make this more reliable? i bought this for home defense/ conceal carry. we take our class this saturday and I am going to RENT us BOTH a gun as I now have no confidence it shooting it. we purchased this gun do to its feel in BOTH our hands, caliber, looks, and more importantly at the time MONEY. We are planning on buying 2 more pistols in the very near future as money allows for conceal carry/backup. but now I am leaning to another brand as I can't just keep dropping cash until I find the one(two) right for us. thanks for any help with this issue.

also is there any gunsmithing someone could do to make it a better gun? trigger pull is heavy, specially for my 4'10" 105# girlfriend. any recommendations for a good gun for her?

Congratulations on you purchase. Although I have a preference for the Glock design, any reasonable person would affirm that the Sigma is a very good pistol. I do not own a Sigma. From what I've read of range reports, etc., the problems you are experiencing with your new pistol are atypical. Happily your Sigma pistol is covered under the excellent life-time S&W warranty. Contact them for instruction for how to return your pistol for warranty service. It will not cost you anything. They will fix your pistol and return it to you. If you mention the problems with the trigger pull, they will almost certainly give it their attention. Sincerely. brucev.
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Old 02-02-2010, 08:58 PM
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When it comes to opinions, you are of course welcomed to your own opinion. Like noses, everyone has one. And if it is your opinion that S&W did not copy Glock, then you are fully entitled to your opinion, even if you are wrong. For if S&W had not considered their position at law untenable, they would not have settled with Glock by changing their design and paying money damages.

It is said that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. In that light it must then be considered a most sincere compliment that S&W would simply imitate what Glock had developed. Further it is not hard to figure out why Glock parts are not found in Sigma pistols. Glock parts would have to be modified to fit the Sigma frame. The result would be the equivalent of a Frankenstiein Special which would not come close to that perfection which is the hallmark of Glock. Sincerely. brucev.
Again, yes SW infringed on Glocks patent, obviously that is why they settled and payed the money. That is not in question.

Again, as was said in the other thread and this one multiple times; Glock took nearly every design feature in the pistol from other pistols. Who is imitating who ? SW ripping off a pistol which ripped off a bunch of other pistols. By your measure every polymer framed striker fired pistol is a glock copy even though glock was not the pioneer of ANY of the technologies or features present.

If the parts don't fit, then what does that tell you ? Its not a copy is what it tells me. To make statements that simply are not true and touting them as fact is a blatant disservice to everyone.

Like i have said before, there is nothing wrong with glock pistols. They don't work for me, if they do for you then great.
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Old 02-02-2010, 09:23 PM
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There is one reason not touched on that the LEO comunity went with Glock.Glock would lowball every bid and give more generous buy backs to get thier foot in the door.Now that the M+P is out many departments are going with it,because it is a far better and more adaptable sidearm...MIke
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Everyone was already at the glock anyway. SW was trying to steal some of Glocks thunder is all and they are still trying although they are making some progress.

Glock stole every design feature in thier pistols, so i really don't understand why everyone thinks they were so "revolutionary". Image is what keeps glock on top, nothing else.
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Old 02-02-2010, 09:34 PM
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Why would anyone buy a Sigma instead of a Glock?

Good question. I saw the deals offered on the Sigma, and it got me into the store. The wifey said I had no price limit on this purchase! So I could buy any 9mm I wanted! I looked at the Glock (I had shot many), didn't like the feel, but the trigger was OK. Held the Sigma, didn't like the feel, or the trigger. But that's me, if you like one get one.

I didn't like either, but S&W's marketing got me through the door, and I walked away with an M&P!
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:09 AM
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...I should also add that I have been looking at M&Ps, as well as the Sig P250 Compact. And while I am at it, I like the CZ 75 and '75 Compact. Anybody else with this problem? I still feel good about owning the SW9VE, and have no regrets.
Yeah, I have that exact problem, down to the models. I'm slowly collecting each one to someday decide which I like best
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Old 02-03-2010, 01:15 AM
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BigRich315, I like your attitude! Where to start...
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Old 02-03-2010, 03:29 AM
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I'd buy a Sigma over a Glock if money was a serious concern (I used to have one of the 1st Gen Sigmas, I didn't have any problems with it), but with the GSSF deal (where joining for $35 allows you to buy one Glock pistol per year at LE prices) making the 17, 19, 22 & 23 about $400 before tax I'm going to choose the Glock.
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:38 PM
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Thanks for the replies on my problem. I just got off the phone with customer service and they are sending shipping info to me soon for the repairs needed.....hopefully this will take care of the issue. I like the gun and felt it has good accuracy, even for a beginner such as myself; I like the looks of it as well. Not going to be my only gun though, looking into something smaller for back-up or to use when to hot to conceal the sigma.
Any suggestions as to another semi for ankle or somewhere. I am looking at the pk380 what do you all think?
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  #94  
Old 02-03-2010, 02:29 PM
brucev brucev is online now
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Why would anyone buy a Sigma instead of a Glock? Why would anyone buy a Sigma instead of a Glock? Why would anyone buy a Sigma instead of a Glock? Why would anyone buy a Sigma instead of a Glock? Why would anyone buy a Sigma instead of a Glock?  
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Originally Posted by WildCard ZX6R View Post
Again, yes SW infringed on Glocks patent, obviously that is why they settled and payed the money. That is not in question.

Again, as was said in the other thread and this one multiple times; Glock took nearly every design feature in the pistol from other pistols. Who is imitating who ? SW ripping off a pistol which ripped off a bunch of other pistols. By your measure every polymer framed striker fired pistol is a glock copy even though glock was not the pioneer of ANY of the technologies or features present.

If the parts don't fit, then what does that tell you ? Its not a copy is what it tells me. To make statements that simply are not true and touting them as fact is a blatant disservice to everyone.

Like i have said before, there is nothing wrong with glock pistols. They don't work for me, if they do for you then great.
With respect, S&W copied the Glock design. What they did was similar to how various manufacturers sought to evade the legal roadblock of the Rollins-White patten which S&W bought and used in their ground breaking No. 1 revolver. The No. 1 did not introduce the ideas of multiple chambers, percussion ignition, internal priming or fixed ammunition. These ideas were used by S&W, along with the Rollins-White patent, to produce the first commercially available revolver firing fixed ammunition. The No. 1 was not a new idea. It was a remarkable use of ideas that set the pattern for all future revolver design in the same way that the head-locking Mauser bolt action established the pattern for virtually all subsequent bolt-action rifle design. In the case of Glock, it is not that the design is unique. Polymer construction, Browning tilting barrel lock, striker firing, magazine feed, etc., are not new. The innovation of Glock was to use these ideas to produce a pistol that constitutes a sea change in handgun design and manufacturer. It is as significant a turning point as the development of stamped steel construction for firearms pioneered in WWII Germany, a process that today is used to produce modern firearms such as Sig, etc.

I am not aware that I have made any untrue statements. If I have been inaccurate, such error is entirely unintentional. I would not consciously act or desire to do disservice to anyone, most especially anyone who shares an interest in the ownership and use of firearms. I have sought to be accurate in everything I have written. However I am well capable of failure. I must assume that if I am not here in error, then I have at least not well expressed myself. I regret that I have caused trouble for this board. I beg your pardon. Sincerely. brucev.
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  #95  
Old 02-03-2010, 03:32 PM
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WildCard ZX6R WildCard ZX6R is offline
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Why would anyone buy a Sigma instead of a Glock? Why would anyone buy a Sigma instead of a Glock? Why would anyone buy a Sigma instead of a Glock? Why would anyone buy a Sigma instead of a Glock? Why would anyone buy a Sigma instead of a Glock?  
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Originally Posted by brucev View Post
In the case of Glock, it is not that the design is unique. Polymer construction, Browning tilting barrel lock, striker firing, magazine feed, etc., are not new. The innovation of Glock was to use these ideas to produce a pistol that constitutes a sea change in handgun design and manufacturer. It is as significant a turning point as the development of stamped steel construction for firearms pioneered in WWII Germany, a process that today is used to produce modern firearms such as Sig, etc.
I don't understand how you can admit that glock did not pioneer anything but then can say that the introduction of the pistol brought about significant change in pistol design or manufacture. If glock used existing design and methods of manufacture, by what measure is that innovation ?

I think you're confusing success with creativity.
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Old 02-04-2010, 07:08 PM
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I dry fired both-I liked the Glock trigger better
also The tenifer is an important feature as I'm in the water a lot
My little brother hase a 9mm Sigma-He loves it
Glock are good But They don't have a model 57 or 41 do they?
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Old 02-04-2010, 09:02 PM
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Why I chose a Sigma over a Glock.Well,let me see:
1.The grip feels better in my hand.
2.I like the trigger on the Sigma better than a Glock.
3.The Sigma is priced lower + a $50 rebate or 2 free mags.
4.I'll buy American over foreign any day of the week.
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Old 02-05-2010, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by bubba626 View Post
Any suggestions as to another semi for ankle or somewhere. I am looking at the pk380 what do you all think?
Another thing to consider for a smaller carry gun or a back-up gun is to get one in the same caliber, so you don't have to supply two types of self defense ammo. For 9mm, the 3913/3914/3953 or 69xx series would be worth a look. For 40 you could try the 4040/4013/4053/CS40. Also, don't forget about the compact models of the M&P series. You should be able to carry these smaller guns in an ankle holster or IWB comfortably in the summer.
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  #99  
Old 02-05-2010, 12:53 PM
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BigRich315, I like your attitude! Where to start...
I started with the M&P40c (possibly the best carry line out there in any caliber you choose!), got it an SW40VE AF little brother, and will probably save up for the Sig next. Still just the tip of the iceburg though...
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  #100  
Old 02-05-2010, 01:47 PM
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I know of a couple guys who bought sigma's because the local gun emporium had them on sale for a lowball, loss-leader price. I fired one of them extensively, a 9mm version and I wouldn't trade my glock 23 for 3 of the darn things!
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