It has been widely reported that S&W copied the Glock design and called it a Sigma, then had to reach a settlement with Glock when Glock sued them for infringement.

So what is the allure of a Sigma? Why not just get a Glock instead? I hear people asking this all the time.

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Aaron Terry

Check out the price difference then get back to me?

Yeah, you can get a new Sigma for $350 and a new Glock for $500. But some people actually seem to like the Sigmas.

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Aaron Terry

Sigma is not a Glock copy. The lawsuit pertains to some unknown factor that smith did away with to appease glock. The guns are similar in function and thats where the simliarites end. No parts interchange.

The grip angle is more akin to the 1911 than the lugerish Glock angle. The magazines are steel instead of metal lined polymer. I like the stainless construction better than the tenifer coated glock. Price point about half that of a Glock 19 which is about the same size. Made in USA. Grip feels like a gun instead of a piece of lumber. Just to name a few.

Because the grip and trigger on the Glock don't work for you.

I don't understand why people would re-learn how to shoot just to be able to own a certain brand of gun.

Did S&W incorporate the Sigma technology into the M&P? If the Sigma was a good gun, why did they create the M&P?

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Aaron Terry

Because they wanted to make a "better" gun.

If the .38 special was good, why did they make the .357 ?

And not because everyone went to the Glock instead?

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Aaron Terry

Everyone was already at the glock anyway. SW was trying to steal some of Glocks thunder is all and they are still trying although they are making some progress.

Glock stole every design feature in thier pistols, so i really don't understand why everyone thinks they were so "revolutionary". Image is what keeps glock on top, nothing else.

wildcard stated the #1 reason which is price and throw in rebates which S&W have been running for quite some time(initially $50+2 mags, to either or) is what pushes people to decide for the Sigma. Ergonomics play a large role in why one purchases a handgun as well, with reliability, function, and customer service as others. I wonder what the % of people who buy a Sigma for their 1st handgun vs as an additional gun to have at a great price. Just from what I have experienced on the forums it seems to be close to 50/50 as to the first purchase vs the additional purchase which says a lot of the confidence people have/percieve with what a lot of Glock owners fee like is an inferior handgun in all respects. I have owned a Sigma and would not hesitate to buy or recommend one to any friend or relative. zorro49

1.American made ?
2.Smith and Wesson customer service .
3.Price sensitive .
4. Brand Loyalty .

Who knows.

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John 3:16

I've heard many people say Smith & Wesson has a bad reputation with autoloaders, and I wonder how that got started.

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Aaron Terry

IMO a glock feels like holding a brick on a stick.
Sigma made in USA, luv the steel mags, being able to shoot 40 S&W bullets in an S&W gun. Having more money left over to spend on said ammo. You dont hear about any sigma A/D(Plaxico)Sigma is everything a glock is not. Mine has been 100% reliable. BUT hey, glock is still a good pistol-runs like a swatch, very reliable. If it feels right in your hand & on your hip - buy a glock!

Glock owners act like people buy Sigmas because they can't afford a Glock.

Maybe not everyone is looking for a Glock. Maybe, just maybe, people just prefer the ergos on the Sigma.


I have one and I love it. I stumbled into to it for sure but I was a no Glock guy before just because of the ergos.

Is this the end all be all of pistols for me?


Of course not. I have an XD SubCompact and an LCP on order right now.

Just my opinion.


.

I bought a Sigma because I preferred the feel in my hand over the Glock or the Springfield Armory. I also wasn't too keen on buying an Austrian gun when an American one was to my liking.

Not to point out the obvious guys, but aren't we all a little biased on this forum ?

I am a huge glock fan. Though I just sold mine to buy an M&P because I wanted something easier to carry since the G30sf (compact .45 acp was so dang thick). I shot the first batch of Sigmas and didnt care for it at all.

Would I buy one over a glock? Probably not due to just the fact I still dont completely trust it yet. And I dont care for the looks of the sigma. Am I saying it is a bad gun? No I would just have to shoot it and give it time. Would I buy one? Yes, but I want something proven reliable for carry.

Now I have had great results with Glock and Ruger (for that matter) customer service. I am sure S&W is great. But having only a old .38 special and .380 I never needed them or anything. And with the addition of my new M&P I am hoping I wont need them for it either. Called glock for some replacement parts to put back in my gun toolbox kit. Ruger was for a new grip. I can make a list of pros and cons for the Sigma as well as any other gun.

BTW I never had to "re-learn" to shoot when I picked up any glock. Had three Rugers (2 p89s, 1 p90) a small beretta, small luger, a .357 ruger, S&W .38 special, S&W.380. And shot the M&P, XD, and a HK USP before purchasing my glock. Still never had to adjust. I know alot of people say they had to. My friend says he has to hold his head funny to aim. I never had a problem.

If Sigma proves to be reliable and the cost stays down the heck yeah I will get one. My biggest turn off really is the experience with the first one I shot awhile back. Second is the looks. Though the solid black isnt as bad as the steel color slide.

"Why NOT buy a BMW instead of a Dodge?"
Everybody knows it's better and it only costs twice as much!

Substitute any brands you choose, and the result is the same. Not everybody wants to spend the extra money.

You could shoot lead in the Sigma without worrying when its going to self destruct.

CD

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De Oppresso Liber

Maybe i should point out that i once owned a glock as well as the sigma and though both of those guns were sold guess which i bought another of ? Twice ?

There is a reason why Smith&Wesson is on their 3rd Polymer Pistol design and that’s because of Glock. Never ever owned a Sigma, have a SW99, and a MP series pistol. While people may say that Glock is or was not innovative I disagree. The sum of its features in a package was and is innovation. They being Glock built the better mouse trap. They didn’t try to reinvent the wheel but the G17 started a trend and other firearms manufactures had to take notice and had to play catch up. Yep I own Glocks. If forced to select a pistol straight from the factory and defend myself with it at this point I’d select Glock.

Sounds like you bought more Sigma's.

Here are the recomendations that I give any one asking my opinion on what gun they should buy.

1: Grip comfort. How it fits in your hand.

2: Comfortable in carry position. How are you going to carry it and how well is it concealed.

3: Caliber they are comfortable shooting. 9mm is always the first recomendation.

4: Price & Quality

5: Go to as many gun ranges and rent, borrow, and shoot as many different models before you make your decesion.

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TDR911 Sigma Laser Systems

I think that Glocks are great guns and I know their are tons of happy owners out there. I have shot them many times. Great guns!

I chose the 9VE over the Glock 19.

I compared the two guns very carefully. In my hand the sigma's ergonomics are flat out better. Everything about the way the sigmas feels in my hand is better. I fully understand that the word ergonomics is subjective, so I can only offer my opinion.

The one thing that I just can't get over with the Glock design is the grip angle. When I hold one in my hand I have to twist my wrist downward to point the gun on target. The sigma (in my hand) is a natural pointer. To me, this is the biggest advantage to the sigma.

I knew that both trigger systems have a feel of their own. I think the Glock trigger is a little easier to pull.

What I didn't expect is how smooth and easy it is to pull the trigger on the sigma. After reading over and over how hard it was, I was expecting it to be hard. It isn't. It does take some getting use to, but for a DA revolver shooter, It's not an issue at all.

My daughter got to shoot the sigma for the first time the other day and said "Dad, what are these guys talking about, this thing is fun to shoot"!

Once again, I think that Glocks are terrific guns, but I chose the sigma primarily for the ergonomics. Price was also a factor in my consideration.

S&W and Ruger have always been my favorite guns and they are made in the USA, and backed by outstanding customer service.

Happy shooting to all,

Lee

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SD9VE, American perfection!

I recently bought a Glock G30sf. It is a great firearm and shoots incredibly well. It feels good in the hand. My only gripe is that is is 1/4" thicker than any of my other 45 autos. Since I carry IWB, this makes holster selection critical. You need a very thin IWB holster to carry one of these comfortably.

I can not comprehend why anyone would want either one of these pistols.

It's difficult to compare a Glock and a Sigma. Glock has developed a very good reputation and the first Sigmas were pretty much junk. The Sigma line has come a long way and now it's a good pistol. I suspect S&W created the Sigma in order to have an entry in the polymer market. Due to the early reputation of the Sigma...it's difficult to change the market's opinion.
Glock owns about 80% of the law enforcement market. Glock's pistols have a proven track record even though the quality of other pistols is equal. Glock's future could be in jeopardy due to moving much of the manufacturing to the US. Glock produces 30K pistols a month in Austria, but US production will be 60K. The tenifer finish will not be in US made Glocks because the EPA would not approve the use of cyanide in it's process. If you want a Glock I would buy one while you can find a Austrian produced pistol. When I attended Glock Armorers school we learned the "tenifer" fininsh is not the black coating on the slide, but it's in the steel. One can remove the black coating and not remove the tenifer.
When deciding on buying a Glock or a Sigma, it would be personal preference, or the pistol you can shoot the best. I own many pistols, buy my Glock 30 is the most accurate of all.

Indiana

I have both. My glock stays in the safe and my Sigma goes in the night stand. The reason for that is due to the travel distance of the trigger. Although it is much shorter on the glock, during a high stress situation such as a home invasion, I want minamize chance of having a ND. Im no rookie with weapons and I know not to put your finger on the trigger until its go time, but somthing a bout that greater trigger travel makes me more comfortable. JMHO.

People repeating what they read on the internet without any personal experience. In my experience the 3rd generation S&W steel frame autos are bar none the most reliable handguns on the market (well, they were on the market), and that includes Glocks. I have never had a malfunction with any of my steel 3rd generations, they will feed anything to include fired brass, I can't say the same for Glock.

The first generation Sigma was trash, which I can also say from personal experience. It has never recovered from that reputation, which I am sure is part of the reason for the M&P. The M&P is a better pistol than the current Sigma, but it also costs twice as much.

Why would someone buy a Sigma over a Glock? I expect the primary reason is price, a Sigma can be had (after the rebate) for $250 NIB. One can't buy a used Glock in shootable condition for that, and a new Glock is twice (or more) as much. Other reasons include the grip, the warranty, the brand name (some, myself included, just prefer S&W to Glock), the appearance, and the metal magazines.

Is the Glock a better pistol than the current VE Sigma? It probably is, but I'm not sure its twice as good.

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Hello Cleveland, Rock and Roll

Everyone likes different guns. In my semi-autos I prefer the TDA trigger system that the third gens have. I also like my SW99 because it has a similar style trigger system. While I don't enjoy the trigger pull of a Sigma, I don't really like the one on a Glock either (or the grip angle for that matter).

As for the Sigma, you get a reliable, battle accurate, gun for a great price. If that is what you looking for, why spend twice as much for the same results? Is the Sigma the best gun ever made, no, but that is another argument entirely.

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J.D. Roy

The major stigma of the Sigma, is the reputation they earned from the first generation models.

First impressions, good or bad, can last a long time.

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Mama, take this badge offa me

Oh yes and love our two VE's

You couldn't give me a glock. I love my M&P's though ;-)

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Dave

As a proud owner of both the G19 and 9ve


Sigma: Feels better in hand.
Longer trigger meaning I feel safer with one in the chamber.
Holds one more round.

Glock: Way easier trigger, better for my gf with weak hands.

Thats pretty much all the differences i notice. Even upon breaking down the gun, it basically is the same gun, exept for the trigger mech...

There the only two pistols I own and plan on owning for the immediate future. Cheers!

Same here. The title should read "Why buy a Glock when you can buy an M&P"

As far as the Sigma, can't stand them. Worst trigger on any polymer semi auto ever.

Same here and the ergo's. Just sold an XD. Awesome gun but I wasnt comfortable with that super light trigger on a CCW or nightstand gun.The glock is just nasty in my hand. I might be crazy but had shot a friends sigma and went to buy one without knowing the price because I liked it. When I saw the price that was a bonus. Dont get me wrong ..the XD is a great gun .. this one just fit my needs better .. oh .. and I think its a good lookin gun!

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Sigma is a Glock copy. Glock thought there was patent infringement and the Judge agreed.

S&W and Glock settle suit.
Shooting Industry, June, 1997 by Russ Thurman

The Glock vs. Smith & Wesson lawsuit is history. After nearly three years of legal posturing, S&W has agreed to a multimillion dollar settlement and a slight modification to the Sigma Series Pistols.

To no one's surprise, Glock sued Smith & Wesson in early 1994. claiming "tortious acts, including without limitations, patent infringement, federal unfair competition, common unfair competition and deceptive trade practices."

S&W returned the salvo with "We firmly believe the suit to be totally without merit and will act accordingly."

Glock also sent an ultimatum to its dealers, giving them 15 days to decide on which to carry the Glock or the Sigma. "If your decision is to continue to distribute Smith & Wesson products, your contractual relationship with Glock Inc. will be terminated," read the message.

In the end, Smith and Wesson agreed to "remove the surface located below the sear in the Sigma Series Pistols, which Glock contends is a positive guide means, and Glock has agreed that such a modification would resolve the patent infringement claim."

While no one in an official position is willing to say how much S&W will pay Glock, informed sources put the figure at between $5 and $8 million.

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US Army 1965-1971

Because of the Sigma stigma.

Heck, I paid $250 for mine with four mags... A similar Glock was
at least double that.
I guess it depends on how spoiled you are whether you will like
the Sigma or not.. There are better pistols out there.
But I don't feel the Glock is worth double what a Sigma is. Or to me
anyway..
I don't even really feel it's all that much better a pistol than the Sigma is.
The trigger is a little easier, but on the other hand the grip is not as
comfortable, and they don't really like to shoot unjacketed lead which
is no problem for the Sigma.

For me, the plastic pistols are just tools, and I don't get too emotional
about brand name. All I care about is if the thing works, and hits
what I aim at.
Being as I am cheap, buying the $250 dollar Sigma with it's four
mags, and lifetime warranty was pretty much a no brainer vs buying
the appx $500 Glock that does pretty much the same thing.
If I'm going to spend $500+, it probably wouldn't be either one
of them..
But saying all that, I actually kind of like the Sigma... It's really not a bad
pistol as long as you get one that is right from the start. I've never had
any real problems with mine so far. Never a firing or eject glitch so far.
For $250-350, I don't think you can beat it with a stick. How many other
"big brand" .40 S&W pistols can you buy for that price new?
Not many that I know of. The only reason I might consider a Glock is to
get a 10mm version. I wouldn't mind having one of those.

I bought a Glock G23 .40 S&W in the early 90's. I bought a Storm Lake conversion barrel for it several years ago so I could also shoot 9mm. I bought a Sigma SW9VE about a year ago I liked it so much I bought another in .40 S&W last month. I still like the Glock I like both Sigmas. I shoot all three of them. I also have different pairs of shoes and wear them at different times.

We went over this in anther thread didn't we ?

Springer 1911 = 1911 Copy
Cimarron 1873 = Peacemaker Copy
Tangfolio Witness = CZ-75 Copy

Sigma = Not a Glock Copy

The day someone shows me a sigma with some glock parts stuffed inside and it works i will retract my statement. Sure S&W kinda ripped off the concept but Glock stole almost all their features from previous designs anyway.

Otherwise the fact that Glock sued them for patent infringement means nothing. If you patent a part or idea and use it in a refrigerator and someone uses the same part or idea in a toaster did they copy you ? But you can still sue them for patent infringement. Besides the fact that Smith and Glock settled out of court so there was no "Judge agreeing" with anyone.

I love my new Sigma and my 469 (which btw is 27 years old now), but if I could afford it I'd buy an H&K P2000 or a Stoeger Cougar in a heartbeat. Just some non-Glock thoughts.

For me, the M&P is a better gun then the Sigma. My M&P fits better in my hand plus I can shoot it better. However my Sigma is my favorite over my M&Pc because I can not look pass the fact that it is cheap but yet it works REALLY good! If you have the money then go with the M&P but if you don't, then get the Sigma....


On another note, like I've been saying over and over and over again, Smith and Wesson need to make a compact version of the Sigma at the same price of the full size Sigma.

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Don't look, reload and shoot!

I have owned a Sigma before and I have owned several Glocks, and HK polymer pistols as well. I really don't have anything bad to say about the sigma as far as function goes, however the trigger was the most disgusting thing I have ever felt, I measured it on a trigger scale and it was close to 22 lbs before it fired, to me that is a horrible design. I realize you can lighten the trigger on just about any gun but should a trigger really be that heavy straight out of the box??? The HK gun worked good, but the things I didn't like about it were the price, and the complexity. I can strip a Glock or a Sigma down to the frame and re assemble it w/o any problems, to do this with an HK you need a PHD. Currently the only polymer guns I own are Glocks......To me they just feel better, and have a better trigger. Do I think Glock is bette than Sigma? Well, the trigger sure is, but other than that there may not be a huge difference. I think the only thing keeping the M&P from stealing the majority of Glock sales is that Glock has that proven track record, and has about 80% of law enforcement using it. If I recall correctly the original test G17 is still being tested and is near 1000000 rounds if I'm not mistaken. It might take the M&P several years to gain this popularity regardless of how reliable of a gun S&W built.

Better hand ergonomics (feels right and points well) and less expensive.

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Srigs

1. thru 5. are the reasons to buy a Sigma + a lifetime warranty.

I wanted a Glock but bought a Sigma instead because of the price. After about 8 months, too many FTF's, trigger job, and a replacement barrel, I got rid fo the Sigma and bought a Glock. Haven't looked back since. The Glock trigger is much better and the Glock is more reliable and much more accurate.

All that said, the Sigma was a nice piece for the price. After having it worked on, it did okay. The FTF's still occured, but no more than other cheap guns in the same price range. The accuracy was in line with other sidearms in the price range. But it just wasn't consistent, accurate, and reliable enough to make me fully comfortable.

For a couple hundred $ more, the Glock's proven reliability, greater accuracy, and (so far) flawless function provides me peace of mind I want for staking my life on my sidearm.

Just buy what you want and leave it at that. Bashing another man's preference is bad form. Anyone truely interested in knowing what Sigma owners like about the pistol could find more than they can read in a day by simply searching on "sigma".

Out West

Did you have one of the first gen models? The first gens had alot of problems which is why the new VE models still get the bad rep. S&W improved all the flaws with the 3 gen models so now basically the only con is the trigger which isn't that bad. I'd rather have a a cheaper gun with a heavy trigger (which can be remedied) then a more expensive one with a boxey frame and awkward grip angle.

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665: Neighbor of the Beast

I have had glock, xd, h&k and sigma -- all dependable.
But have only kept my sw40f sigma -- a very early one.
I like the handle and the trigger and just the way it feels better than the the others above.
Mine has always worked and for many rounds.
I have no trouble with the double action trigger.
I am glad of all the brands being there... but the sigma is my choice of polymer pistols. It is my only polymer pistol.

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Sigma 40F

If you call telling the truth "bashing" then so be it. The man asked "why" and we gave him answers. No more, no less.