I'm talking about the initial sigma/ SD's ancestor came prior didn't it? It is what it is.

Also I said expanding on the M&P I never said it came before it. Newer Versions, Refinements, CORE Series.

I misread that I thought you were stating that
(to paraphrase here) they would not have made the M&P if the SD was so good.

Here is my take on how the SD came to be. I would have to call Smith and Wesson to confirm but I doubt they would take the time to answer my questions.

Sigma was released and had poor ratings,S&W decided in order to compete with the Glock market they needed to up the ante so they begin to develop a new pistol in the M&P. Somewhere along the line someone says why don't we trash the sigma and take the parts we have in stock to make them and design a hybrid between the M&P and Sigma. We will improve the trigger,make the frames similar in dimension so they can share holsters, cut the SD with the same cuts as the M&P for sights and use our existing sigma mags.

And thus The SD was born.

That would at least explain why the SD shares so much in common with both the Sigma and the M&P. To call it an updated or new generation Sigma would not be fair.

Smith and Wesson should have picked a new naming scheme to differentiate it from the Sigma series a little further IMHO

Brilliant analogy that makes perfect sense and is totally logical.

I'm over a 1000 rounds with my sd40 with no problems what so ever.I have only had it for a few months but so far so good.I hate glocks but the sd is far from a glock killer.Glocks have a reputation for reliability,smith's newer semi autos not so much.Now a 2nd/3rd gen smith semi auto is a glock killer

Thanks , thats the first time I have ever been acused of that.

Stay tuned for my next installment: S&W 459, the Glock killer.
The FBI should still be using the 459 as their duty weapon.
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Just kidding, remain calm.

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Pretty sad really,those were some of the finest pistols ever made.What they produce today is average at best

Hah, yeah that's "Glockish" in many ways. It feels just like a Glock in my hand-like I picked up my bat from the wrong end. ;-)

To be fair, there are many things that feel more comfortable in the hand than Glocks, such as fence posts, lantern batteries, Rubik's cubes, and porcupines.

Porcupines!!! LMAO!!!

Seriously though I never understood the complaint about Glock grip angles. I get the thick and thin but angles? Really? I love how Glocks feel but at the same time I pick up a S&W M&P and it feel equally good, same goes for the 1911 and the S&W 3rd gens. The angles all feel just fine to me.

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Don't bother me any. I learned to adapt to it. Some people refuse to adjust or learn anything new and then complain about it.

I can pick up most any hand gun and shoot it well. Most true gun guys can. No big deal.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

Aside from the fact it feels like you are shooting a 2x4 the grip angle is a huge part of pointing your firearm, sure you aim with the sights, however the further the sights are from alignment the more time it takes to aim. Every time I grab a glock and point it at a target the front sight is not in between the rear sight but hovering above them due to the grip angle. This forces me to hold my wrist at an odd angle to get the sights to line up. If you do not experience this that's good however not everyone is the same.

Other than that I just dislike the diehard Glock fanboys they are just annoying to the point I would never want to be lumped in with them.

Yeah I know. I hate em too. I just like to give these guys a hard time.

Shoot isosceles. Both arms extended straight out. You won't notice the grip angle and won't have to adjust.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

I like Glock. But I've never been a fanboy. Never will be. I'll admit there are nicer guns out there. I just like the fact that if I pick up a Glock. Its gonna work. Every time. Never had an issue with one. Are they pretty? No. Comfortable ? No. Fancy? No. Made of match grade material at tight specs? No.

Will it shoot straight. Yep. Will it go bang every time I pull the trigger? Yep. Can it take more abuse than 80% of guns? Yep. So in my op its in the top tier of guns.

With that being said.....there are better guns but there are a ton of guns that cannot and probably never will compete with it haha

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The SD9 represent a very good value in a nicely evolved design that is better than its predecessor (SWVE Series) as to trigger action. It is a very fine "light duty" pistol for the price.

That said, I would have to pick the Glock for defense. It has a better trigger, has been thoroughly proven in extended endurance testing and it is simply more reliable over the long haul.

EDIT: I typed up a whole long response and when I hit submit half of it disappeared. Dont feel like re typing

Don't get on here as much as I would like & comment even less but this has been good reading. I like my SD9ve a lot &the more I shoot it the more I like it. The fact that it was a S&W for $300 had a lot to do with why I picked it. IMHO the best $300 you could ever spend on a handgun.
I am going with the wife & others to the range. I will have a chance to shoot my sd9, the wife's m&p9c & my friend has a glock 9 not sure which one, but I will be thinking about a lot of what I read here.
I already know I can shoot the m&p a little better & should for $200 more. So I guess I will be looking to see if the glock is more like the SD or the m&p or better than both.
Again good conversation y'all , thanks : )

I can shoot any handgun and shoot it well after a mag or two. I had a G19, G26 and G30SF. The G30 was thick, the G26 had the hump in an aggravating spot and the G19 was the best of the bunch. I don't like to chop, stipple or grind on frames. I mention that since the G19 would be a lot better if they would eliminate the finger grooves.

I've held and shot the G17 and that makes the front sight point high which is totally opposite of any Beretta, 1911, S&W, Sig, Ruger and other brands/models that I've owned. Most models of the Glock point high and are uncomfortable in the hand. Anyone claiming that does not mean they're not good shooters, it just means they have human hands. There's a reason why the G19 is the most popular out of all of their models.

You say Ford and I say Chevy.

You say red and I say blue.

Everybody is happy.

Let it be.

Out
West

In the end this is the result.
You like what you like and I like what I like.

The Glock is a fine reliable handgun, just not for me.

Unfortunately there are so many fanboys that will tell anyone who they think might be listening that everything else is pure garbage. They couldnt be more wrong.

That is my only point

Given that the designs are so very similar I would like to know your thoughts on why a Glock will out last an SD if both are in good working order?

That's where Glock wins. If the SD is in bad working order or disrepair. It won't work. Glock works after being dropped out of an airplane. Short of being blown up.......a Glock always works. No matter the condition.

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Did airplane drop break anything? Not that I seen in that test. So that would mean it was still in good working order.

Has anyone tried dropping an SD out of an airplane? No, so that is not a fair comparison,since we dont know what the result would be.

And again given the similarities in the designs what makes you think an SD would not work after the same fall? is the steel softer? lower grade polymer? springs Made of weaker material than the Glock?

I would be happy to test that myself but a lack of pilots license or knowing any one who has one makes it a bit difficult.


As for the part in red
So if a glock had a broken spring and the SD had a broken spring the glock would work and the SD wouldnt?

Maybe. Maybe not. But I'm willing to bet you'll find a spring for the Glock well before you find one for the SD.

__________________
Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

Unless it a mag release spring or a extractor spring, Galloway precision sells every other spring needed for the SD. Trigger spring, firing pin block spring, striker spring, recoil assembly and Sear spring are all available.

But Yes the after market for glocks is massive. The track record also.

I just dont see the logic in thinking one would be more reliable when the two designs are almost exaclty the same mechanicly aside from the way the trigger interacts with the striker.

My SD9 is a tank. I'll put it up there with a glock for reliability. You can only tie 100%.

My biggest complaint is the obvious one, the trigger. The apex kit helps but did Smith and Wesson need to make it that long and heavy? Reminds me of something hammer fired which isn't something S&W should be trying to duplicate.

With that being said, I love my SD9. Feels great in my hands, the trigger isn't a problem once I got to be a better shooter, and it hasn't failed me once. Easily recommended.

I will believe the SD can keep up with glocks tortureablitly when its been beaten on the way Glock has. Airplane drop. Soak in the bearing sea for 2 years. Buried for 3 years. Shot with a .45 acp. 1 million round test. Put in a 500* oven for a day. Filled with mud. Frozen in a block of ice for 6 months......

Once the SD passes that it can be equal. Otherwise its like saying you could beat Marion Jones in a race......without actually doing it. If something wants to tie....it must walk the walk and not just "possibly" do something.

Glock holds the title for toughest gun... If something beats it I will I will admit that. Until then its just a maybe. Maybe doesnt count lol







Gen 3 22. 500,000k+ rounds. Carried daily 12+ hours in a sand, water, heat filled environment. Duty gun for years. Never a hiccup. Only a tiny bit of holster wear

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because the sd series has been around since 1982 and has premiered in so many movies such as die hard,blood diamond and rap videos that everyone thinks they're the best.Till a sd is dropped from a airplane,dropped in the ocean,and/or fired in a swamp.....you can't compare the two.Glocks have a reputation that is hard to beat but lets not forget the most successful propaganda campaign in history where the romans said the barbarians were the most crude and unsophisticated civilizations in history....although it was never true we still believe that they were to this day.lets not reach conclusions till the sd has gone through the same torture tests the glock has gone through,only then will you have an equal comparison.

So is it the metal, heat treating, the plastic, the springs what makes you think the SD would fail?

I agree it needs to be tested to find the real answer but I see no reason why it would fail any of the same tests given that the design is so similar.

Its a legit question and until I see an answer that has do with with materials used or something done during the build process I have no doubts that a SD in good working order will last just as long as a Glock in good working order.

But will an SD in bad working order last as long as a glock in bad working order. Being submerged in the bearing sea for 2 years constitutes as bad working order :-p she was hella rusty when she came out, very rusty. She still went bang. I've also seen a glock with a buldged barrel used in a GSSF match. It won lol

Thats the thing with glock. Unless its exploded, it will still work. I've seen glocks with cracked barrels, frames, slides......they still shoot accurately for at least 5 rounds........Now thats enough to save your life. So its proof enough for me :-)

Still doesnt adress my question What makes you think the SD would not survive? Build process? Materials used?

Because it hasn't been done. I am Not in any way saying the SD is a sub. Par weapon. Im saying your making it talk the talk without walking the walk. Every gun company says their weapon is just as good and 99% fail at proving so. I have no doubts that the SD is a good weapon. However until it preforms the same. There is no proof that it is. Its like saying. Beretta and Taurus are equal because those both Beretta designs made on Beretta equipment. We know that's not true and Taurus can't beat Beretta in quality and reliability.

I'm saying its not as reliable on the sole basis that it hasn't ran in the same gate as Glock yet. Once it does. I'll believed it.

I don't drink gun cool aid. I look at facts. Fact is Glock has a nasty impressive track record. Hence why 80% of leos in the us carry them. Its a hard record to beat but its a true one. If the SD can keep up after 20+ years...I may carry that for duty next

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Now the gen 3 smiths have a very good record. And were used by many agencies when Glock was starting up. I put the 59 and 69 series in the same group as Glock and most 1911's. I carry a 6906 daily off duty. Trust my life to itSD is just not quite there yet

We seem to agree that the ultimate proof will require testing where we differ is you seem to think that it wont hold up to the same testing for whatever reason. I say I see no reason why it wouldnt.

To use your anology "its like saying you could beat Marion Jones in a race......without actually doing it"

Well if I was built just like him/her (I have no idea who that is nor do I really care) it would only be reasonable to assume I would at least have a chance would it not?

All I am saying is nothing points to it being any less reliable yet. Glock killer No not at all glock came first and is already established in LEO circles.

I would put my money on Marion. She's an Olympic athlete who's used to running *albeit on dope* haha

My reasoning is guns that try to copy Glock.....usually do fail.

There are tons of polymer frame pistols out there. All which have issues that Glock has never had. Heck even the m&p line has had issues with the coating chipping off, slide and hardware rusting for no reason. I've had a kahr cw40 snap a trigger spring out of the box. I've never sewn a polymer frame glock-alike that stood up to Glock. Every brand claims to. But every brand fails. Hence why I'm skeptical of any gun that is built like a Glock. When it comes to polymer Glock is the king. They started the race and their still in the lead when it comes to function and durability. I love the SD. I just don't trust it as I trust Glock just like I love my slightly rusted SIG P250 haha or my not fully finished m&p.40c : D

If my life was in danger and I could pick up any pistol ever made. No matter how much I love my Smith's, Berettas, 1911s, and rugers. I'd grab a Glock. It may be blocky, may be ugly. But its the only pistol I'm positive that wouldn't fail me.

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If the SD9 is so good and much cheaper, why don't the cash strapped law enforcement agencies use it?

Well because they already have pistols and in order to get new ones it costs money. Pretty self explanatory.

So what you are saying is glock never had any issues with any of their guns?

How many of the Competitors were sued by Glock for building a product close enough to theirs that Glock won?

How many SD's have kaboomed for unsopprted chambers like the Glock has had issues with? How many SD's eject brass directly into your face gen 4 glock style?

To the best of my knowledge none.

So at the very least the SD has the Glock beat there.

If you research 90% of kabooms were due to bad hand loads. You put a bad round in anything it will blow up.

Also the ejection thing goes across the board. My SD does it. So do some of my third gen smiths. My Berettas. My sigs. That's a very tough issue.

And the copiers....exactly what they are. They didn't make thier own gun. They copied a Glock and got sued. Hence why Glock won. Glock got it right and others want to make $$ off it. I'm an armorer. I've seen people blow up Glocks. All of them caused it by doing what Glock says don't do haha.

But then again I'm speaking personally. In my opinion......I trust my Glock. More than I trust my SD. But I also trust my Taurus pt1911 a heck of a lot too.

Bottom line. Glock makes a very durable and reliable pistol. Its a combat pistol. Its meant for one thing and one thing only. To work. Even if you're getting brass in the face. Everyone wants to make the new age Glock. The next best thing. Which is great. And day someone does it. I'll buy it. But until it handles the same abuse its just another gun to me. A Glock is a simple tool used to defend ones life by taking another effectively and reliably. It wasn't built as a plinker. Or a competition piece. It was meant to be abused beyond normalcy and still fire. No erganomics, no fancy manual safeties. No beauty. No special bells and whistles. And for its original purpose. It can't be beat. Not yet anyway.....does the SD have the potential? Yeah! Has it done it? Not yet haha that's my opinion.
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I have seen my share of Glocks that wouldn't feed right or fail to eject. I don't see them as better, just another choice.

+1 They were awsome,to bad they were discontinued
I think the sd is a solid gun,not great but good.I think the real difference between glock and many others including the sd is in the polymer.I'm a steel guy and only have 2 poly gun's,and both are totaly different poly wise.I think the sd will hold up fine,my only concern is will the frame?The sd's frame feels cheap compared to others and that's my main concern.Only time will tell on the real durability of the sd.

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Well not a torture or even accuracy test just some range time with these three. We all know these guns are not nail drivers but are as accurate as the shooter & over 99 % of are never going torture them. Sure it is good know / think that if you did drop it, it would not break ( not from an airplane mind you ).
So anyway my friend has Golck 19 gen 3. I liked it just fine, had no problem with the angle of the hand grip & liked the trigger. I do not have small hands but it did feel fat to me & i had problems finding the mag release. I am sure with a little use it would be fine.
I found the M&P & the Glock to be a better comparison & my SD more different not better or worse.
I was able the hit with the Glock from the first shot same as the M&P, but when my friend shot the SD his first shots were low & to the left. He to was able to hit with first shots from the M&P.
I think we all agreed the biggest difference in the three is the SD trigger. ( When you master the SD trigger it will help you shoot other guns better. )
All three are find hand guns & could be depended on.
Glock killer no, but I am even more satisfied with my $300 SD9ve as I was if that is possible.
Smiles everyone. You like Chevy, he likes Ford, I like Toyota

In 1992, the U.S. Customs Service was looking for an immediate replacement for the troubled CS-1, and the DA/SA 6906. The Customs Service had a long standing relationship with S&W, so the request went out for a striker-fired 9mm pistol that could be rapidly transitioned to the field to replace the CS-1.

S&W responded with the Sigma. The compact version was to be issued to Special Agents and Air/Marine Interdiction Officers, while the full size was to go to uniformed Inspectors. The contract was for approximately 5,000 pistols.

The first 500 pistols arrived at the U.S. Customs Firearms and Training Branch in Ft. Benning, GA. The guns were immediately sent to the range for initial testing with duty ammunition, before they were to be sent to the field. Of the first 500 pistols tested, there was over 50% failed the reliability test with duty ammunition.

S&W sent engineers to Ft. Benning to address the problem. A satisfactory solution could not be found, so U.S. Customs returned the 500 Sigma's, and cancelled the contract. The Commissioner at the time was Ray Kelly. Mr. Kelly had been (and is again today) the Commissioner of the N.Y.P.D., and had overseen the N.Y.P.D. transition to the Glock 17/19. Mr. Kelly called Glock, and Glock 17's and 19's started flowing to the field.

I have carried a Glock since 1986, when I purchased the 137th Glock 17 to come into the country (verified by Glock.) I still have that original pistol, and several more Glocks in various calibers, the pistol just works! However, since 2006, I have been carrying various models and calibers of M&P's. I like my Glocks, but I still wish the M&P would have been on the shelf in 1992. I absolutely LOVE the M&P!

IMHO as a law enforcement firearms instructor for 33 years, the Glock is a superior pistol to ANY version of the Sigma!

Because they can get Glocks for free.

technically they are not free, the SD hasnt proven its use yet

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please care, use hollowpoints

Many departments get Glocks for free and the Sigma/SW/SDVE has proven it's use as a security firearm quite well. I'm still wondering if S&W gives security companies software to utilize the bar codes on the Sigma/SW/SDVE series since it's the only firearm S&W makes with one.

i meant police/military trials. its a great pistol no doubt i have 3. one i have is on the same level as my friends loaded m&p

__________________
please care, use hollowpoints

I'm a Glock fan...I own a Glock 23 .. Glock 36 and a Glock 21 Gen 4

But I own a SD9VE also... I've owned Sigmas in the past...always had great luck....

Now about the M&P,...I never cared much for Walthers..

I post here because I own and am a fan of an SD9VE.

I know there are tons of Glock fansites but I don't post at ANY of them for two simple reasons-I don't own one and I don't like them.

I don't post at Glock sites telling the fanboys that their favorite pistol is less enjoyable to hold and feels worse in the hand than any other pistol because they obviously like their pistols and more power to them.

I don't argue with them about stories of shooting AT Glocks, dropping them from the space shuttle, throwing them into the bowels of Mt. Saint Helens, ad nauseam.

I don't argue with them about these things because I don't CARE and I don't treat ANY of my firearms this way-in fact I enjoy cleaning my firearms after a trip to the range almost as much as shooting them. I don't have any delusions of being a cross between Marshal Dillon and Sgt. Alvin York-I'm an ex-military, present day couch commando that enjoys hunting, firearms, shooting and carrying a handgun concealed to protect myself and my family.

My pistol doesn't have to survive at the bottom of Putin's outhouse for two years and come out shootin' cause it ain't gonna happen! If your current occupation puts you in the potential position of having your firearm exposed to such "stress", I guess you should get a Glock.

The reported "survivability" capabilities of the Glock are impressive but I couldn't care less as I don't treat my firearms like that. I've shot enough rounds through my SD9VE now that I've lost track and it's been a delight to shoot, always goes bang when I pull the trigger and that is good enough for me. The installed Apex spring and trigger kit make my SD a pleasure to shoot and that's all that matters. Oh yeah, it fits my hand like it was custom manufactured for ME and doesn't feel like I'm holding onto the wrong end of a baseball bat. THAT'S one of it's most important features to ME.

Now to a more important matter-are there any rumors that Apex is going to make a striker for the SD?

Umm - The Sigma and the SD9 show how cheaply a Glock can be copied.

The courts agreed about 10 years ago and indicated S&W violated glock patents. That is why the SIGMA trigger was so bad for so long.