Just got back from the range and I had 1 fail to extract ( shell stuck in barrel) with independence aluminum 115gr. This is first time I brought the gun to the range since I bought it brand new, fte happen after I shoot 30 to 40 rounds. After fte happen, I fire the rest of independence box, and fire 50 rounds of umc without an issues. I did clean, lube, lock silde back, put ammo in mag and leave it for a week before bring it to range.
So my question:
Is this a problem from limp-wristing?
Defect gun?
Btw, I took some pics of the extractor, do you guys think is it normal?

I'm assuming you mean the shell was in the chamber, not the round. The round includes the shell, the bullet, and the powder -- and I am assuming here that the round fired, the bullet left the barrel, and only the shell remained in the chamber...

Failure to extract can be caused by the extractor, an ammo issue, or the dreaded limp wrist.

Your extractor looks fine (it looks like mine, which work fine). You may have a weak extractor spring, but one instance of FTE is not a good indicator that you have this problem.

A undercharged round may not cycle the slide all the way, which means the fired shell would not come back far enough to hit the ejector, and thus would return to the chamber when the slide went forward. That could have been the problem.

Limp-wristing? Maybe... but that more often catches the shell in the ejection port after it is extracted rather than returning the shell to the chamber. Tighten up your grip, especially with the support hand, as you should anyway. Can't tell if that was the problem, since we can't go back in time and see what happened...

With one instance of this problem, I would wait and see what develops before sending the pistol back to S&W as having a defect. S&W has great customer service and will pay for the shipping label (call them when you need it) but I personally would not spend their money or take my time with that solution just yet. Fire it some more and see if it happens again. It is counter-intuitive, but maybe fire some more of the same type of ammo to see if that is related to the problem (some people would say "avoid that aluminum ammo at this point," but then, you would end up with less data on the potential problem!).

Good luck!

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S&W Rover

since I fired about 60 rounds without a problem, hopefully it was just ammo defect. I was able to drop the mag, slide forward to normal position then slide back and the shell came out just fine. I will give it a try one more time to see if problem come back. Hope it's not a problematic like the taurus 709 slim I had

Especially during initial use, a single fte is not much to try to analyze.
Couple of things you might do:
1. Be sure chamber is clean and dry.
2. Put a single cartridge in a mag, load, fire, and see if the slide locks back. Repeat using a lighter hold and see if you can induce a problem. I like to know if the slide is locking back forcefully or just making it back.

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Science plus Art

I was put 2 rounds in mag and slide lock back just fine. I have have no problem with slide locking back, it always lock back after I fired all rounds in mag.
Since I have multiple fte problem with my 709 slim, I feel like problem could happen with other gun too. I do have a ruger lcp and shot just fine, but I never put anything except brass though my lcp

IMO, it's most likely the Independence Aluminum case ammo. I'm not bad mouthing Aluminum case ammo. I like inexpensive practice ammo. I have a couple cases of CCI Blazer aluminum case ammo. I expect it to be 99% problem free, and it is. Every once in a while, I'll get a short stroke of the slide. One time the aluminum extractor groove on the 9mm rimless ammo didn't hold up. Another time, whatever case treatment/coating on the aluminum case was probably missing and caused a failure to extract.

Try a hundred rounds of brass case 115gr practice ammo. I'm sure you'll have no problems.

There is one specific manufacturer and brand of inexpensive practice ammo I highly advise you never buy. Stay away from it as if it could give you contact herpes.



Tul MaxxTech ammunition. It's nickel washed, steel case, brass jacket over soft lead ammo manufactured in Bosnia and Herzegovina. I found a case for a stupidly cheap price. The price overrode my common sense. The ammo powder charge is inconsistent. Under live fire I'll get some rounds that feel like they're +P+, and others with a mouse fart charge that force me to make sure there isn't a squib in the barrel. I also think the projectiles aren't balanced, and wobble in flight. From pistols that are known to be both precise and accurate with regular brass case 115gr practice ammo, I could never achieve accuracy or precision using Tul MaxxTech ammo.

The round fires. The steel expands to the chamber, but doesn't rebound like brass. With a traditional polymer coated or lacquer coated steel case, the coating provides the lubricity needed for the slide's rearward momentum to yank the spent case from the chamber. In this nickel washed abomination, the thin nickel wash flakes off when the steel case expands. The nickel doesn't add any lubricity. The case then sticks in the chamber and I have to tap it out with a dowel.

Even more worrisome:





This is a case fired from a Springfield Range Officer 9mm. You can see the case expanded when fired, and the case failed (cracked). This case had to be tapped out with a dowel. The same thing occurs with my Glock 19, Glock 43, Sig P938, S&W SD9VE, and Styer M9-A1. I tried to give 100rd plastic cans of it away to friends. It jammed a Sig SP2022, Sig P320, Ruger P95, Taurus PT92. I average 2 to 3 failure to extracts per 15 rounds, with the case stuck in the chamber. Case failure doesn't always occur with a stuck case. Out of 30 spent cases, I counted 10 that had case wall failure. My SD9VE will experience a failure to extract with every round of this junk ammo. Shoot, swear, dowel down muzzle end to tap out stuck case.

I have 350 rounds of it left in my ammo can that I can't give away. It's going to stay tin my ammo can as my end-of-the-world ammunition to be used when I have no other choice because my sling shot is out of rocks.

Former Taurus 709 slim owner here. Key word = former. Don't generalize issues with your 709 slim to every other pistol. The 709 slim is a gamble. Some work fine. Some (like mine) were nothing but problems even after trips back to the Taurus Miami Mothership.

IMO if your 709 Slim is problematic with brass case, copper FMJ ammo, time to get rid of it. Luck of the draw whether or not you get a problem free 709, and you weren't lucky. If you need a single stack 9mm polymer frame pistol, go get a Ruger LC9s, Glock 43, S&W Shield, or XD-S 9mm.

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-John

709 slim was my first gun ever, I did not know anything about malfunction since I never owned any gun before. Problem with since out of box, I have put 400 rds on 709 then end up send it back to Miami. I have heard some people have very luck on that gun, not me :/. I will see how it perform when it comeback from Miami.
BTW, I will try to get another hundred round of brass to see if anything happen with my sd9ve, Hopefully not

If it only happened once I wouldn't get too excited. I would chalk it up to ammo and move on. If it develops into a repeated pattern, then I would look for the cause.

Don't use aluminum case or steel case ammunition. Cartridge firearms were not designed to use anything but brass. That a certain firearm handles aluminum or steel case w/o problems is a testament to that particular firearm, but as a rule, don't shoot aluminum or steel. And yeah I know it's cheaper, but save yourself the headache, trust me. And some of the ammunition on the market is just so much garbage that it is almost criminal. Some of these manufacturers are not in the US, and could care less what their product does to you or your firearm, they just want your money. Just try to get help from them when their garbage ammo blows up your firearm. Good Luck.
This particular problem w/ poor quality ammunition made w/ steel or aluminum cases cause massive problems w/ the AR15 crowd, all over the US. Major problem at Training shoots all the time.
Remember the old computer adage? "Garbage in, Garbage out" Very true in this case.
Stay safe.

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LEO, Instr, Armorer, Gov's 20

Good thoughtful, advice above. One failure to eject out of a box of 50 is usually limp wristing or bad round, as mentioned, aluminum cased ammo is not peak performance stuff. I sometimes use steel when brass is hard to get but never aluminum, but it is a free country. Just remember what you save on ammo you can lose on wear and tear on your gun. Good luck!

I've heard that aluminum still better than steel case. i did not save much on aluminum I bought, I was bought it to test through my 709 slim and have 50 rounds left so I end up shoot it through my sd9ve. I will come back to range next week to see if any fail, this time will be all brass no steel or aluminum welcome .

Hi everybody, I just came back from range with 150 rounds without any issues, I'm very happy with the result! BTW the trigger feel was pretty to me, not bad as somebody said.
I also test my taurus 709 and result still the same before trip to miami.

I will second the opinion of the MaxxTech. Unknowingly, I purchased 450 rounds of steel case 115gr ammo on Saturday for my son and I to shoot at Steel Target Challenge on Sunday. We encountered the same issues described above. multiple FTEs on two different handguns (S&W SD9VE, Springfield XDM), horrible inconsistency in both load and accuracy, and on my son's 3rd string of the last stage, one did indeed squib. He had to finish the match with my XDM, and I had to use my shop press at home to press the squib out of the barrel.
FWIW on the accuracy, I typically shoot anywhere from a 4 to a 6 second string, depending on the stage being shot. My times (on a string where I did not have a FTE), doubled or better. We burned 434 rounds on a course that shouldn't take more than 150.
I took one of the spent casings back to the gun shop I bought the ammo from and talked to the owner about it. He's a cool guy and I've been doing business with him a long time. He agreed that it looked like junk and he wouldn't carry any more of it.

I still have 300 rounds of it just sitting in my ammo can. I absolutely refuse to bring it with me to the range. In my area,ranges cost a average of $20 per hour. I don't want to waste the 33.3¢ per range time minute trying to shoot unreliable 20¢ per round ammo. If it takes me 13 minutes to shoot 10 rounds of **** ammo, my cost to shoot per round is 63.2¢.

The total cost to shoot problematic Tul MaxxTech ammo is greater than every other 9mm ammo type I've shot before.

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-John

You might be able to fire this stuff successfully with your slingshot... then again, it might just fall straight down...

The XD-S is an amazing handgun.