NOBODY HAS TO APOLOGISE, ALSO WER'E NOT ARGUING JUST
DISCUSSING, YES ?

I only threw out the leaf spring reference for better understanding
that when you cut a spring, you make it stronger.

I know the preload is less when cutting coils off, I said it would, ( it's common sense ).

The overall spring rate will be more when compressed though.

The spring in question was too long, over powered, aftermarket spring, not the stock spring.

As I mentioned earlier, the preload is actually more then my stock spring.

The reason being, it's an aftermarket, more powerful 20#, longer than stock spring.

I'll start a new thread on spring rates when cutting coils ect... when I have time.

This is getting to long, keep having to go back and see who wrote what ect..

I get that you think I'm arguing, that's why I HATE TEXTING MY WIFE.

PEOPLE READ OR INTERPRET WORD'S DIFFERENTLY AS OPPOSED TO A FACE TO FACE INTERACTION.

"Texting is a brilliant way to miscommunicate how you feel and misinterpret what other people mean"

We will discuss springs in a new thread, I can start it or someone else.

By the way, " HAPPY FATHER'S DAY " , 3 out.




P.S. Yes a coil spring will rotate some when compressed, honestly I didn't even think about that.

I did say please explain I would love to hear it when huafist said spring will dance around,
I didn't think he meant rotate.

Yeah, sometimes it's easy to misunderstand things in text, as inflection isn't easily inferred.

I still fail to see how you can increase a spring's rate by cutting it ; rate has nothing to do with compressed vs. uncompressed ; it's how quickly it stiffens up(ie, lbs/in) - when you lenthen the spring by cutting it (because it does lengthen to take up the newfound empty space), you increase the distance between coils, which can only make the rate go down.
I understand that the preload is still lower than the factory spring, but is it within spec for that particular spring?

I probably should've chosen my terminology better ; "dancing" is typically the term we use in racing when we see a spring rotating in a cylinder head.

And no worries, my friend - Happy Father's Day to you!

Same from here. I got a greeting message from my wife and the two pups and messages and phone calls from my 3 daughters, 1,200 miles away.

Regarding spring rate, It only applies to the unstressed spring, and as you already know, a typical measurement is pounds per inch. (It also applies to a spring under compression, then the unit is still force per distance moved but . . . . )

Try this experiment.

Take a 4 inch rubber band, pull it and judge the force to increase it's length by one inch.

Cut it down to 2 inches and do the same test, that is, stretch it by just one inch.

Notice any difference in force?

Compression springs react the same way, just remember that you have to deal with a "free" spring.

***EDIT***
Need to not post while inebriated on vacation; ignore please

Ok, I'm back home now and a little more clear-headed lol
Maybe I'm missing something, but the experiment you're describing would be testing elastic force, which, I'm sure you know, is the opposite of compressive force. The results would be the opposite for a compressive force test.
If you're talking free length springs, no matter how many coils you cut, the rate will be the same - the travel will just be shorter. The only time rate comes into question is with a spring that has preload.

I actually ordered an SS guide rod from stainless steel guide rods, inc on Amazon yesterday. I'm going to do some testing with the 20lb spring that comes with it, as well as the stock spring. I'll be checking:
1) Free length of each spring, as well as distance between coils uncompressed.
2) Distance between coils at install height.
3) Coil bind (stacking) on both springs.
4) If I have the time, I'll check preload and max compression load numbers.

I'm going to break this off into another thread guys - I think we've went waaayyyy off in the weeds on this one.

*phew*...I'm not the only one

The leaf spring's not analagous to coil-compression mechanics, either.

I emailed Eric at Galloway Precision, last Friday to have company replace/repair my purchase or however he was gonna help with our problems.

Today, in mail I receive a new SS rod and spring like he promised. That was fast.

The SS Rod I received has a thinner milled tailend(piece that mates up to take-down plate).

The spring's poundage is now 16# from what I understand. I'm not sure this is what I want, but I'll give it a try.

The (new) rod's screw end is missing the washer that is on the problem guide rod, which my opinion, helps make sure the spring is retained on backside of slide's front stop.

I once again marked the back edge of the slide's spring pocket hoop and the front face of slide stop on the frame.

Both, now mate up(as a maximum slide travel) with no problem. It feels like spring does have more travel, but slide stop prevents this and you can feel the spring wanting to stop the rearward momentum by its compression, when using your hands to rack the slide, which is what you want. If slide doesn't really hit the slide stop, but just stops just millimeters before going back into forward slide motion, we're golden. As long as it doesn't cause a short stroke with failure to feed.

I wasn't able to go and test fire today, as I had out of town visitors, but tomorrow, we test (3) things.

1: See how recoil feels as it's now a lighter, 16# spring, from factory 17# spring. This may not be good on wrist for recoil, when using factory ammos and not reduced hand loads.

2: If spring gouges any of the spring pocket of slide from the now missing washer.

3: If having a thinner tail piece doesn't bend under the ammo's factory charges.
This has my most concern as it's half the thickness of the previous SS rod guide tailpiece I'm having to send back.

Apparently you didn't read why I posted about leaf springs ?

Please use the other thread that haufist started for any further comments about me or anything having to do with spring analogy.



It's titled, SD aftermarket guide rod/spring analysis thread.

WOW TriumphMan, I don't know what to say about what Galloway did to
make a too long of a spring fit so it wouldn't stack.

I just cut the spring, said it was stiffer and look what that turned into.

Thanks, 3

3hounds

You say "I just cut the spring, said it was stiffer. . . "

So, I think you agree with me, cutting some coils off, "making it stiffer" is the same as saying it had a higher spring rate.

The problem is that the shorter spring has a lower preload when installed in the gun, but it will be stiffer. Spring rate and preload are sometimes confused but are completely different measurements. Spring rate is simply the force per inch to compress the spring. preload is whatever force the spring exerts when installed.

I think the confusion comes up when we cut some coils off, reducing the preload but at the same time the spring rate would be higher. This is confusing in that the spring force starts at a lower value but increases more rapidly as it is compressed.

If this doesn't make sense I can draw a diagram.

Just like teenage boys' Hondas

__________________
~isaac

OK, I just came back in from putting 2 mags through the SD9VE to see/feel how the new Galloway system worked. Definitely not enough to reliability know, over time, if this is way to go, so other testers will be needed for overall judgement of other's experience and knowledge.

Get right down to it, I DON'T LIKE the 16# lighter spring when using off-shelf loads. Blazer(brass) 115gr FMJ. These are from CCI/Speer Operations.

What I experienced with the new setup, is more muzzle flip and harder to hold gun. It wanted to keep slipping in hands(I use 2-handed method). I had to constantly keep readjusting my hands to gain control of continuing shots. This was now like shooting my Hi-Point 40, but knowing the 9mm has less bang.

Shoot over, I went inside and got out my Dad's(RIP) professional Starrett (.001") caliper. Old school, but still usable and precise. Just a little harder to read over digital.

Here are some measurements I got between old and new.

OLD: 17# Galloway Precision

OAL of assembled rod w/screw included -- 2.950"
Tail-end thickness -- .064"
Coils -- 28
Rod length --(inside length) -- 2.810
Washer thickness -- .033"

NEW: 16# Galloway Precision to replace problems experienced by many with spring stacking of current ss guide rod/spring.

OAL of assembly including attached screw -- 2.929"
Tail-end thickness -- .039"
Coils -- 26
Spring OAL in relaxed, unsprung condition(off rod) -- 4.993"
Rod length(inside) length -- 2.810"
Washer -- NONE

There is some spring measurements in post #217 when I remove new 16# spring from rod.

I also did a measurement of what 1/16" is, we feel will help correct the spring stacking and make slide hit where it needs to prevent frame breakage.

.060" = 1/16th inch.

So definitely shorter rod by 1/32"(?) with almost 1/16th inch gained for spring compression due to less coils and no washer.

It looks like Galloway Precision has found a/the solution, BUT I feel they really do need to increase the poundage of spring rate to help with recoil flip, so I'm emailing Eric again to see if he can get me a 18# spring for better gun control -- for me. Others may like the 16# spring as it is.

If anybody else has received the new setup, please give us your assessment on situation and what you've experienced with named ammo type/brand and recoil thoughts, to get back asap to the discussion if any more corrections are needed while this is fresh to everyone.

EDIT: I did email Eric to see if he has a 18# spring with less coils(26) and length(if different) like the 16# to test/feedback. Really, I prefer the heavier duty rod of the old setup, due to it's thicker end-plate, but we'll see what Eric comes back with.

Good set of measurements . . .

1. Were you able to measure the true spring rate of the free spring? If it is indeed as low as 16 pounds you are clearly right because there is a possibility that the slide is hitting the stops pretty hard, accounting for the flip you experienced.

2. If you want we can discuss ways to measure the spring rate on a captured spring but at this point, with all the discussion going on, maybe PM is the way to go if you are interested. Most folks are not interested in some of the details.

No unfortunately, even with all the tools and gun/fishing gear I have, I don't have a way that can be used in any redneck-machinist method to measure the spring's compression weight.

All I can go by at this time, is rely on manufacture to be correct in their assessment/knowledge or other gun folks in the method of how they measured.

Boy, do I understand. A while back I decided to look for a tape measure. I found about 35 measuring devices including a rusty micrometer from my dad's stuff. Some of the items would qualify as antique tools. I photographed them and posted the picture on Facebook.

If I were to look for tools in general, it would show an incredible number of duplicate or near-duplicate devices. Even so, when I had to get down inside our car engines last fall I had to go to Harbor Freight to get some tools, even though I know they are here in un-packed moving boxes, dating back to 2007 and before.

Same for computer stuff (I used to own a computer systems house in San Diego) and also for cameras, accessories, scanners, whatever. I even found an altimeter and compass from my dad's car . . . he liked that sort of thing.

The bottom line is that I don't have a single scale (force scale), just the scale in the bathroom you step on sometimes.

Anyhow, if someone who has any kind of spring scale available I would be pleased to work with them in setting up some measurements. My background is appropriate for that sort of thing.

YES ou1954, I agree with you.

I was wrong in my thinking that the spring would have more
pressure when compressed.

I tell ya after all the calculators, formula's, threads, ect... I looked at my mind has been in a thousand different directions.


I'm lucky I remember my address at this point.


Thanks ou1954, 3

Emailed Eric at Galloway and he's sending a new higher spring rate to replace the 16# spring I received in the replaced guide rod assembly.

This should help correct the increased muzzle flip and hard to control weapon.

Again, this is for the SD9VE model I have. When received/installed/tested and changes possibly needed, feedback will be sent.

Galloway Precision is an outstanding company.


EDIT:

I removed the 16# spring from rod and took some measurements, as I'm now waiting on 19# spring.

OAL of spring in relaxed position (off rod) --- 4.993"

Coil Air-Space (off rod) --- .335" This was measured in 6 different areas of spring and all showed same reading.

Spring Coil Thickness --- .022"

Well, you don't have any advantage over me in that area. I have forgotten some things I said in posts and had to look them up. In at least one instance I had to apologize for an error in an old post.

Whatever happens as a result of this thread and the new one now linked to it, we all will end up winning in the end.

You know my background and former work experience is highly technical, but also practical. In the subject of spring rates, preload, and ultimate force, measurement will beat theory every time.

Agreed on Galloway being an outstanding company. Eric has been an absolute pleasure to deal with. He has made a lifetime customer out of me.

A couple of things:

1. Eric has new springs that he says corrected the problems with the springs stacking. It did drop the over all rate by a pound each, but since the current pistol samples have a lower rate than the older units did, it will stay within normal range changes. He said if anyone wants to swap their old spring for a new, to simply contact him.

2. He also says that he has buffer pads for the SD40VE. He believes the pistol would benefit from a buffer pad. If anyone is interested in testing a buffer pad for the .40, they should contact him.

Eric's email is [email protected].

I would very much like to get my hands on one of these new springs for testing...

When I receive new spring, I'll immediately take some measurements and post.

After seeing how spring works, I'll let everyone know what the factory rated poundage is said to be, to keep everything fair and unbiased as to what we've come up with so far.

Buffer pad? Does it go in the back of the guide rod?

Awesome - can you post it in the spring thread we have going on?

Definitely, huafist. I'll place measurements into both threads, so's everyone can benefit our awesomeness.

I'm not too sure. I didn't really ask specifics, he just threw it out there in an email, so I passed it along.

Huafist has developed a neat way of making the measurements and reporting the results. If you can present your results in the same table form it will be helpful to everyone.

I would imagine it would be installed in the frame where the slide contacts, like the XD buffers.

More beef in that area and seems like the logical place to me ?

Glock has them installed in the front end of their slide, the ones that I'm familiar with anyhow, so who knows ?

Eric is sending me one for my 40, didn't ask him where theirs are installed at.

With the buffer installed it should take care of the spring stacking also ?

3

I would expect so, since it will increase the distance between the nose of the slide and the frame at full recoil, if I'm picturing this right. My only concern is, by altering that relationship, you also alter the slide position at full recoil, which might cause ejection issues. It's already been established that slide travel is ~1/16" less with the aftermarket spring than with the stock one, and the pads are going to add to that - by how much I don't know.
It may not be an issue, but it's something to think about...

Exactly, depends on how thick the buffer is ?

I might have to remove the washer on the guide rod
or find a thinner one ?

3

No...the shorter slide travel with the faulty RSA is due to spring coil stacking.

The buffer will have to reside between the slide and the (by design) intended slide-strike face on the frame. Something like a donut or mashable cylinder, placed near muzzle end of RSA, with an inside diameter wide enough to allow recoil spring movement, and an outside diameter less than space between barrel and recoil spring, at it's minimum. It's thickness won't be additive to the excess-length of the compressed faulty RSAs. It may make ejecting a loaded round more difficult (or impossible), and it will strip some of the energy from slide on the feed/chamber cycle, potentially decreasing reliability.

If there's no reports of frame failure with OEM RSAs, the buffer may be another solution for a non-existent problem.

...but some people like buying things like that

Great analysis, and conclusion.

It could be something as simple as a felt stick-on to the inside of the slide or the frame stop. However it seems to me, at least, that if something like that were needed it would be in the design from the start.

I think I know what haufist meant, I read it differently.

I read it as it will add to the shortness of slide travel.

It depends on how thick the buffer pad is though ?

It would be easier to make buffer in the shape of a U, like the XD guns
and put it on the frame.

No need to put somebody down because they want to try a buffer for
free no less, in their gun.

3

Wouldn't whatever happens first control the slide travel?

Spring stacking, or the buffer hitting.

Spring stacking should soon, with luck, no longer be a problem.

Then we would have the buffer as the thing reducing slide travel. How thick and what kind of material on current guns?

Yes, once again ou1954 you are correct sir.

The buffer mentioned for the Xd and I think they make
them for Glock also, is made by Strike Industries.

Not sure how thick they make them ?

You tube has videos of them, just search Strike Ind. shock buffer.

3

Thanks. I like the concept of a buffer but couldn't find one in the Springfield XD parts list. (I've never seriously handled any XD so had no idea whether they had one.)

I think I have seen some larger guns with dual recoil springs which I assume may perform some graduated spring rate.

I continue to find it amazing that gun designers are so successful in managing all the factors that come into play, and have been doing it for 100 years.

I'm aware of that - but in order to stop the stacking issue, the buffer pad would have to inhibit slide travel by at least the length of the stacked spring, yes? Meaning it would have to stop the slide even shorter than the 1/16" caused by the stacking of the spring?

Maybe I'm looking at this wrong - were the buffer pads to be used in conjunction with the aftermarket spring to prevent stacking, or standalone?

The theoretical buffer would have to reduce slide travel by more than the travel reduction created by the improper spring, correct--if the purpose of the theoretical buffer is to transfer the 'hard-stop' of the slide, back to where it should be on the frame.

Again, you'd further reduce rearward travel of the slide, increasing likelihood of ejection problems, and reducing energy for slide's feeding & chambering cycle.

Are you guys really sure the OEM RSA is that bad??

It's not the OEM assembly that's causing the problems ; it's the aftermarket ones.

huafist and Steve912 you're both right, huafist you're not
looking at it wrong.

It depends on HOW THICK THE BUFFER IS ?

Maybe it will cause problems as Steve912 said ?

You also have the option of removing the washer that captures the
recoil spring on the rod or finding a thinner one if needed ?

The RSA is not that bad but I have the 40 and wanted a stronger
spring, it's a bigger projectile and I also reload.

3

Yup, so far, there don't seem to be any issues with the OEM RSA, just the aftermarket ones.

I looked up those buffers on YouTube and they are simply Polyurethane pieces that are dropped in front of the area where the slide would hit the heavy section of the frame. The company that makes them doesn't list a version for the SD series. They seem to be somewhere between 1/16" to 1/8" thick and will reduce the slide travel by that amount.

Since I haven't seen nor tested one I will not comment but I looked at the videos and suggest anyone interested judge for themselves.

In any case I don't think that reducing slide travel is a good idea for the reasons given in the quoted section.

About the videos, 3hounds gives this search term for YouTube and it brings up several videos. "Strike Ind. shock buffer"

After seeing several videos I don't plan on trying a buffer.

Got the "NEW SPRING" from Galloway Today

I must first say, this is one stiff son of a gun. Yep, pun intended. Eric said I can cut spring to get the results I wanted.

OK for some measurements and shooting results.

Right out of package: This spring is rated -- 19#s.

Spring length -- No Rod: 5.190"
Spring Coil Thickness: .027"
Coils for Total Length: 28--this includes cut coil at one end as it is not a flat finished end.
Air Gap Between Coils: .060"
Outside Spring Diameter: .415"

Mounted on Rod and installed in gun. The spring is very tight on rod as it wants to be wavy in it's captured length.
Checked for stacking, didn't notice any when looking through side. Looks promising.
This is now one tough slide to rack. Don't like. Slide agrees with me as it feels too tight and binding.
Shot 1 magazine.
Ejected casings just kinda rolled out ejector port and about 6" off to right side.
Didn't have any FTF, FTE, FTF problems.
Gun easier to handle than with using 16# spring.
Had finger problems with doing double taps that I didn't have before.

Back inside to inspect.

Had hard time getting slide off, but after 3-4 tries I hand pushed slide off using some moderate force.
There was a very light hammering on Rod. It was noticed where the Rod seats in rear at the Take-down Plate where the frames broke. WE DON'T WANT THIS.

I made mods to spring. Cut 3 coils off.
Slide much easier to now get on and smoother in it's track.
Remove slide and put in some oil in couple areas.

Outside and fired 2 magazines.

Slide performed much smoother in my opinion yet. All ejected casings flipped about 2ft to right and were recovered within a 2ft square.
Double taps went off with no problems. Smoother slide action felt with fast target alignment.

Inside to inspect.

Slide came off in 1 smooth, sliding action.
Inspected the rear and again still, just a light hammering of Rod at rear.
This time though, I gain some very light striking on the slide stop. This is very good.
I cut off 1 coil.
Assembled gun again. Slide really likes the spring now.

All together, I shot 4 magazines for testing spring.

Once done:

Spring Length after all cuts(off rod): 4.185"
Coils after cutting: 24
Total difference in Length after cuts: 1.005" shorter

Started out 19# and is now --- ??? I would guess 17.5#
using SD9VE as test subject.

Sounds like you did indeed have stacking before you cut off those coils. It would have been worthwhile to carefully check the distance you could move the slide before modifying the spring. Maybe you can recall where it went, it seems to align a design line on the slide with the takedown bar.

Do you have a way of putting the spring on a longer rod or dowel and measuring the force as you compress it in steps, as posted by huafist?


Here is a copy of what he posted, in part . . .

Overall free spring length: 4.996"
Spring installed height: 2.995"
Given that the slide travels rearward 1.885" at full recoil, that means the spring has a maximum compression of 3.886" during operation.

I took compression force measurements every 0.5" for the first 2" of spring travel - I couldn't go any further due to my scale issue. However, that's been enough to get some good data:

length : force
4.996": 0.0lbs
4.496": 2.1lbs
3.996": 4.1lbs
3.496": 6.3lbs
2.996": 8.6lbs

This works out to a technical spring rate of 4.1 pounds per inch.

Just a comment. Spring rate and spring weight are clearly two different measurements.

Spring Rate is the force per inch to compress an otherwise free spring. If you remove coils from a spring the Spring Rate increases even as the free length is reduced. (Yes, that's correct.)

Spring Weight is an esoteric number used by the gun spring folks. It is "apparently" the force exerted by the spring at full recoil. Removing coils from a spring will reduce "Spring Weight" as we now begin to understand it. The only reasonable measure of "Spring Weight" seems to be pounds.

It would be very helpful to the group for folks in contact with vendors to ask them what they mean by "Spring Weight".

OU1954

I have no way of measuring a spring like you suggest.

As to spring stacking, yes it was there, but looked like it was good when eyeing from side by marks.

It wasn't determined to have spring stack until I ran some mags through it, though it was very light. That may be from the 9mm being softer than what a 40 gives in recoil.

How rating length compared to poundage being so different would be nice to know.

I can now say the slide is now lightly hitting the slide stop and my wrist(s) now say the gun is behaving quite well in recoil, while the slide doesn't rattle in any way, while closed and ejected cases are being flipped to the right of port and not back at my head like the 16 and factory stock 17# springs were doing to me.

Thanks - Glad it worked out for you.

I seriously object to any vendor saying to cut coils from a delivered spring.

It just isn't a professional approach and seems to indicate some lack of skill or knowledge on the part of the vendor.

"Spring weight"

I just found this little tidbit on the Wolff spring web site-

"LOAD-RATED RECOIL SPRINGS are precision springs designed to exact load ratings. The load rating of these springs is determined with the slide in full recoil position"

Wolff FAQ uses the term "pound of energy" in their FAQ section.

Energy could be expressed as "inch-pounds" but not just "pounds". That bothers me.

When I emailed Eric about getting a new spring, his actual words were to cut spring as needed.

This I suppose was because I wanted a spring in the 18# max range, but he sent me a 19#.

The spring was an unfinished type spring anyway. Only one end had a flat-wind finished end, while the other end was just a rough cut end. Seemed to be made to custom cut as needed while cutting down on some of the poundage.

These springs may be used more for the M&P standard models as they have 4.5" barrels. While, we are using them for the SD/VE models that have 4" barrels and making to fit to our standards/needs.

That's why Eric is maybe now sending out 16# assemblies, made for the M&P "compacts" due to them having 4" barrels. Just a thought and anything heavier in poundage, we are having to custom make.

TriumphMan, VERY GOOD JOB AT MODIFYING YOUR SPRING
TO YOUR AMMO. You did it PERFECTLY cutting a little at a time
then testing.

Since nobody makes springs for theses guns and you want
a different spring rate and steel R.S.A.

Modifying is the way it's done, I've been doing it for years
because I reload.

I never cared what the rate was as long as it worked for that
particular load and didn't beat my gun up.

Face it, aftermarket parts aren't going to be as popular for
these guns as say the glock or M&P.

We're going to do what we have to do if you want a certain
part because they aren't available.

Yes every recoil spring vendor I dealt with suggested cutting
springs.

Just make sure the cut end is smooth, no burrs, I put the cut end
in the muzzle end of guide rod on poly guns.

3

...now you're thinkin'!!!