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Old 01-08-2017, 06:47 PM
a_finelli a_finelli is offline
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Default Sd9ve for bear protection

I've been talking about this in the revolver forum about 38 special and I figured I'd ask about 9mm. I really don't have the money for a hiking gun so I'm trying to stay with what I have. What do you think about sd9ve loaded with buffalo bore ? Would I have to change the spring for a 9mm+p load?

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Old 01-08-2017, 07:08 PM
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Get serious. Used Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 Magnums are common in my local gun stores for $425 to $450. If you need bear protection dump the 9mm and buy bear protection.

On the other hand, we are lucky to even get a glimpse of our local black bears. They are hunted so they are terrified of humans. If your local black bears have lost their fear of humans you can almost eliminate the likelihood of them being a problem by not leaving out garbage, pet and bird food or anything else for them to eat.

If you live where there are carnivores that might actually hunt and eat humans wait for another member to offer advise. I doubt any will recommend sticking with 9 mm.
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Old 01-08-2017, 07:15 PM
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Guy killed a brown bear worth 9mm not to long ago, so let's get serious...I don't need a 500 for black bear and I don't have money for another gun

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Old 01-08-2017, 07:25 PM
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I think you shoot them with what you got. My experience with them is they run first. But on the one that doesn't follow bear procedures. If I listed them I'd probably miss one. Google them. They are different for black bear and grizzly.
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Old 01-08-2017, 07:34 PM
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If you decide to use a 9, use fmj ammo, not any expanding ammo.

Lots of bone to get through to reach bear vitals.

Ballistic gell isn't a useful comparison to heavy boned animals.
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Old 01-08-2017, 07:39 PM
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The Alaskan professional guide who killed a large bear with a 9 mm killed it in extremely unusual circumstances. It was standing over his two clients who, thinking it was their best option, had laid down. The bear was standing still and paying no attention to the guide who fired from 15 feet behind the bear's shoulder. A bear charging at 25 mph is a lot harder to drop.

Can't your 9 mm be sold for at least $300?

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Old 01-08-2017, 07:49 PM
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When the time comes you can buy a bigger gun. Until then I'd use the 9mm with BB Outdoorsman ammo
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Old 01-08-2017, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a_finelli View Post
Guy killed a brown bear worth 9mm not to long ago, so let's get serious...I don't need a 500 for black bear and I don't have money for another gun
With a perfectly placed shot, you could probably kill a bear with a .22, but that doesn't justify making it "Plan A".
And, if all you have is your 9mm, and you can't or won't get something else, then what are we talking about here? You're using what you have, and hoping for the best, end of discussion.
And, as recommended above, I'd go with the penetration of a good FMJ over HP's.
BTW, here's an interesting story of an Alaskan guide that killed a grizzly with a single-stack S&W 9mm, coincidentally, using Buffalo Bore ammo ! (so you may be onto something,LOL! )
9MM +P OUTDOORSMAN Pistol and Handgun Bullets Pistol & Handgun Ammunition
(scroll down a little ways after clicking the link)
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Old 01-08-2017, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by k22fan View Post
The Alaskan professional guide who killed a large bear with a 9 mm killed it in extremely unusual circumstances. It was standing over his two clients who, thinking it was their best option, had laid down. The bear was standing still and paying no attention the the guide who fired from 15 feet behind the bear's shoulder. A bear charging at 25 mph is a lot harder to drop.

Can't your 9 mm be sold for at least $300?
Yeah it can but I don't want to sell it, I like it for range shooting, I was hoping I could possibly load it got for hiking

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Old 01-08-2017, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark IV View Post
And, if all you have is your 9mm, and you can't or won't get something else, then what are we talking about here? You're using what you have, and hoping for the best, end of discussion.
The original question was .38 or 9mm over at the revolver section.

642 for woods defense?
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Old 01-08-2017, 08:00 PM
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Exclamation

I thought you only had a 642now with a 9mm I still say the right tool for the right jobI have a SW9VE and I'd want 17 round of Buffalo bore WELL placed
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Old 01-08-2017, 08:04 PM
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All 17 ROUNDS
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Old 01-08-2017, 08:05 PM
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I thought you only had a 642now with a 9mm I still say the right tool for the right jobI have a SW9VE and I'd want 17 round of Buffalo bore WELL placed
I have a gp100 357 with a 4 inch barrel but it's heavy and on a long hike it takes a toll. I carry it during hunting season and my shoulders hurt from carrying it in a shoulder holster for 10 hrs

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Old 01-08-2017, 08:12 PM
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I'd say your 9mm and some Buffalo Bores will serve you well. I don't believe you'll need to swap out any springs.

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Old 01-08-2017, 08:18 PM
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Hmmm. 22.4 oz automatic with 17 rounds of ammo or a 36 ounce GP100 with six rounds. I wonder if the difference is noticeable. But, carry whatever you want and hope for no encounter, which is the norm...
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Old 01-08-2017, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a_finelli View Post
I have a gp100 357 with a 4 inch barrel but it's heavy and on a long hike it takes a toll. I carry it during hunting season and my shoulders hurt from carrying it in a shoulder holster for 10 hrs

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Come on now for the weight difference IF your strong enough to hike 10 hours that weight difference should not bother you...Use the .357... I carry a model 66 4" no problems at all
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Old 01-08-2017, 08:25 PM
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It's concealability, if I'm hunting I don't really need to worry about it, but outside of hunting season in ny you have to keep the gun concealed without printing and I'm stuck with what I have right now, believe me I'll be picking up a small 357 once I can afford it but for now I'm stuck with what I have

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Old 01-08-2017, 08:29 PM
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Is a black bear attack really that big a concern for you?
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Old 01-08-2017, 08:29 PM
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Between the 9mm and 38spl I would also lean towards the 9 with BB flat nosed bullets.
I was carrying a 22lr revolver when I tangled with three feral dogs. It was the only handgun I had at the time and I had it stuffed with CCI Stingers. It worked well in the moment. After that though, I got to thinking what if I were to run into something bigger. I moved up to a 45acp then later a 44mag.
My advice ... carry what you have but make it as mean as you can with the proper ammo. Plan for the future if you think something bigger may be needed.
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Old 01-08-2017, 08:32 PM
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Is a black bear attack really that big a concern for you?
No not really but it is a possibility so I'd rather be as prepared as I can than carry nothing at all

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Old 01-08-2017, 08:42 PM
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One of the elk police in the Cataloochee Valley, NC said this was the skull of a 300# male black bear. It was thick, and heavy for it's size.
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Old 01-08-2017, 08:48 PM
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In my experience I never take a head shot.
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Old 01-08-2017, 10:28 PM
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Of course you use what you have and make it the best you can with proper ammo.

BUT, neither a 9mm or 38special or even 357magnum would be on my short list for large predator defense.

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Old 01-08-2017, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a_finelli View Post
Guy killed a brown bear worth 9mm not to long ago, so let's get serious...I don't need a 500 for black bear and I don't have money for another gun

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A 9mm is better than nothing but one thing to keep in mind about the particular instance you refer to the guide pretty much emptied his magazine to put that bear down.

Now, I won't dissuade from the firearm you are choosing to use but a 9mm is not the best choice in bear defense. For black bear, I would recommend .357 magnum at a minimum.
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Old 01-08-2017, 10:57 PM
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Curious, what is your backpacking experience, and where were you intending to backpack where black bears would be a potential suspected problem?
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Old 01-08-2017, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a_finelli View Post
Guy killed a brown bear worth 9mm not to long ago, so let's get serious...I don't need a 500 for black bear and I don't have money for another gun

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There have been guys who killed bears with nothing more than their knife and a their attitude. So you don't really need a gun at all.

Examples like that are the exception not the norm. While it can work it's not something I'd bet my life on

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Old 01-09-2017, 06:46 AM
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Curious, what is your backpacking experience, and where were you intending to backpack where black bears would be a potential suspected problem?
Adirondacks in NY, I've hiked my whole life, hunted for years, and only back packed a little. If like to back pack more when my son is older.

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Old 01-09-2017, 12:16 PM
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Personally, after 50 years of backpacking, hunting, and working with bears professionally for 20 of those years (including one charge by a 400 lb black bear). I would NEVER recommend a 9mm for defense. If only smallish bears were to be encountered (say, 200-250 lbs max) and I HAD to carry 9mm, I would carry one of the Underwood penetrating loads. My personal experience with Buffalo Bore is that I have had too many mis-feeds to rely on it and accuracy is not the best (I agree that YMMV). I carry the hard-cast Underwoods in my 10mm in grizzly country or I carry a 45 Colt/454 Casull.

In my experience seeing bears running (either towards me or away from me!), you'll only have time for ONE defensive shot. Killing a grizzly with a 9mm was a fluke.
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Old 01-09-2017, 01:40 PM
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I would honestly be much more concerned with predators of the two legged variety. Much of this "which handgun is suitable for bear defense" is based in theory since bear attacks are such a rare occurance. Since such attacks are so exceedingly rare no matter the location, there are very few examples of defensively using handguns in such a manner or individuals with any actual experience.

I do think the distinction should be made that all bears are not the same...

"Unlike Grizzlies who attack out of territorial and dominance issues and are very difficult to dissuade, black bears see humans as a source of food: black bears can normally be dissuaded easily by hurting them-you don't need to kill them, so any reasonable powerful handgun cartridge, such as a good stiff 9mm load that penetrates deeply will discourage them and probably kill them anyway, if properly hit. Since many folks who frequent the woods already own a good 9mm or .38 special, they can choose proper ammo and be well armed." - Buffalo Boar founder Tim Sundles

"Black bears are generally not a huge issue and you could probably get away with most service calibers. Brown bears need something like a 12 ga w/a deep penetrating slug or a hot .45-70, not a handgun"... -Ballistics expert Dr.Gary Roberts(aka) DocGKR.

I would recommend arming yourself with whatever you feel comfortable with and go and enjoy yourself not being concerned with bear attacks all that much. In your situation, I myself would probably take a 9mm Glock. If I felt that somehow inadequate, I would take a 10mm Glock. In terms of revolver vs auto(642 vs SD9 in your case), I think the capacity advantage and usefulness at greater ranges of the 9mm semi-auto outweighs the potential need for a contact shot(s) where the revolver might be more effective.

Just my opinion, YMMV.
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Old 01-09-2017, 03:01 PM
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A 22 rimfire will kill a bear if you put it in his ear canal! Are you that good a shot? Bears run about 35 miles an hour bouncing along, are you a great marksman? I am not trying to be a smart ***! I have hunted and killed both black and grisly bears. They both die eventually when shot.the reason they are considered dangerous game is because the may kill you before they die! I don't know if you need bear protection or not, I can tell no bear is going to fall over dead from one shot from a pistol unless you hit him in the brain. They won't fall over from one shot from a 338 win mag , I know that from experience. If in fact you need bear protection and can not carry a rifle you need a large bore pistol with multiple rounds and you need to practice and get good with itSd9ve for bear protection


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Old 01-09-2017, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
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Adirondacks in NY, I've hiked my whole life, hunted for years, and only back packed a little. If like to back pack more when my son is older.

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I'm thinking that if you have backpacked for a while then, maybe you are familiar with "Bear bells", like sleigh bells, attached to your backpack, belt or boots, and or with "bear spray". I'd think upper NY state black bears are skiddish of humans, and I'd be of least concern. However, if you have a 9MM that "blast and noise" might just scare off 99.9% of black bears. Black bears are very fearful of noise. Myself I would not worry about it if you have bells, spay and 9mm. If you have a dog with you, put on the bells on the collar.

If you want to go to the extent of suiting up for a highly remote possibility of a black bear attack, then go with something no less than 41 magnum. This is a remote chance i'd think. I've encountered black bears and cats in the woods and all just turn tail and run off asap. I have shot one in Idaho. Bear bells on my dogs scare off bears and cats into the next county. I would not worry about this given the low cost options and your hiking area.

If you were in Wyoming, Montana, or SE Alaska, that would be a different story. In general, I'd be much more concerned about 2 footed animals.
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Old 01-09-2017, 03:32 PM
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...Bella Twin, an Indian girl, and her friend Dave Auger were hunting grouse near Lesser Slave Lake in northern Alberta. The only gun they had was Bella’s single-shot bolt-action .22 Rimfire rifle. They were walking a cutline that had been made for oil exploration when they saw a large grizzly following the same survey line toward them. If they ran, the bear would probably notice them and might chase, so they quietly sat down on a brush pile and hoped that the bear would pass by without trouble. But the bear came much too close, and when the big boar was only a few yards away, Bella Twin shot him in the side of the head with a .22 Long cartridge. The bear dropped, kicked and then lay still. Taking no chances, Bella went up close and fired all of the cartridges she had, seven or eight .22 Longs, into the bear’s head. That bear, killed in 1953, was the world-record grizzly for several years and is still high in the records...

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Old 01-09-2017, 03:38 PM
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Another same-ol'-same-ol' bear gun thread arguing about another inadequate caliber/gun combination.

Here's a clue. If your first shot doesn't stop or at least deter an attacking bear, you aren't gonna outrun one.

If you can't take the proper gun with you for protection, you need to stay out of the woods. Can't afford the proper gun? Save your money until you can, or take the chance of ending up as bear scat.

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Old 01-09-2017, 03:57 PM
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Have you ever spooked a bear in the wild. They are quick and fast. Their reaction time is scary fast. You have one charge you, you will not have time to empty a magazine and you will be pointing at a black bundle of fur with fangs. Hunt with a slow friend. You probably won't stop a charge with a 9MM. It may bleed to death, or wonder off and die. But that won't be very soon.
A 12g pump or semi auto with slugs or really heavy buckshot. You want something that points naturally and throws some weight.
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Old 01-09-2017, 04:08 PM
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Remember: Bear spray is ~97% effective and guns are ~62% effective in stopping bears (data base is over 2000 attacks now of all three NA species).

I know, it's hard to pick-up girls with pepper spray in a holster on your hip==try growing a beard ?
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Old 01-09-2017, 04:43 PM
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Yes, your 9mm or snub nose 38 special will be just fine.

( That seems to be the answer you want to hear.)

Don't have much experience with bears. Only shot one.
Quartered away from me at about 80 yards. Slid a 130 grain 270 Winchester at about 3000 fps. behind the near shoulder, thru the lungs, and hit the far shoulder. ( didn't know that at the time,, looked like a good shot behind the shoulder, but the way he took off I started to have doubts )

Covered about 35 to 40 yards before I could work the bolt. Had to track it thru thick cover for another 60 yards..
At the time I was sure wishing I had something bigger with me than the 270.
But that was all I had. If a 38 special or a 9mm is all you have ,,,well there you are.. Better than a sharp stick...

Last edited by old&slow; 01-09-2017 at 04:48 PM.
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Old 01-10-2017, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by sigp220.45 View Post
I'd say your 9mm and some Buffalo Bores will serve you well. I don't believe you'll need to swap out any springs.
How many shots did it take to kill that bear? Doesn't look like a one shot kill to me.
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Old 01-11-2017, 12:33 AM
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It's concealability, if I'm hunting I don't really need to worry about it, but outside of hunting season in ny you have to keep the gun concealed without printing and I'm stuck with what I have right now, believe me I'll be picking up a small 357 once I can afford it but for now I'm stuck with what I have

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Well, over in your other thread on this subject you say you're considering a Ruger SP101 in .357. Here you say the GP100 is too heavy after carrying it for 10 hours of hunting. How about trading off the GP100 for the .357 SP101? The SP is smaller, lighter, and easier to conceal when backpacking, yet you still have a .357. Carrying the SP while hunting will probably solve the weight problem while hunting. And you don't have the "which gun do I take today" problem any longer.
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Old 01-11-2017, 12:47 AM
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The answer to your question is easy. Get a quality holster, not a walmart special. Get a quality gun belt, even a 5.11 belt will do fine. Get some Underwood 180gr hardcast. A GP100 is about the same size as an L-frame and I've carried and X-Frame(4in .500 concealed) in the FL sun. If the GP100 is too heavy, dropping to an inadequate cart like 9mm or .38spl (short barrel ballistics are trash,) is not the answer. Lifting weights is.
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Old 01-11-2017, 12:57 AM
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Carry what you have. You may want to consider carrying some bear spray also. When I carry in the woods I carry 10mm. When funds allow you to I would get something bigger than 9mm.


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Old 01-11-2017, 10:37 AM
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Wouldn't a .357 mag in a snubby be about the same as a hot 9mm from a full length barrel? I'm betting the extra 12'rounds would make up,the difference, in any case.
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Old 01-11-2017, 11:51 AM
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Wouldn't a .357 mag in a snubby be about the same as a hot 9mm from a full length barrel? I'm betting the extra 12'rounds would make up,the difference, in any case.
The extra rounds would only matter after the bear reaches you and you beating it about the head and shoulders with a pistol with a full magazine. When a bear is coming at you, you will be VERY lucky to get a second shot off (Been there, done that).

1. Trying for a second shot may rush your first, causing you to miss.
2. Even if dead, momentum will likely carry the bear to you (I don't imagine being under a 500-700 pound grizzly is likely to be much fun!)
3. If you are far enough away to get several shots off, you are likely too far to claim self defense.
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Old 01-11-2017, 12:08 PM
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Wouldn't a .357 mag in a snubby be about the same as a hot 9mm from a full length barrel? I'm betting the extra 12'rounds would make up,the difference, in any case.
Sorry, I wasn't specific. I intended to recommend the OP look for a used 4.2" SP101 that he could just about trade his GP100 for. And I'm assuming the OP has a 4.2" GP100 that he carries while hunting. Little velocity difference between the two. But, I'm probably going off into the weeds on this.

Personally I like Mr Shield's answer.
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Old 01-11-2017, 12:08 PM
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Grizzlys are a whole 'nother subject. We were talking about black bears.
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Old 01-11-2017, 12:21 PM
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Nothing in the original post says black bears or grizzlies (or polar bears, Malasian sun bears, giant pandas)=just "bears".

BTW: My charging incident involved a ~425 lb black bear male.
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Old 01-11-2017, 05:12 PM
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Nothing in the original post says black bears or grizzlies (or polar bears, Malasian sun bears, giant pandas)=just "bears".

BTW: My charging incident involved a ~425 lb black bear male.
The third post said black bears, sorry I wasn't specific enough

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Old 01-16-2017, 07:48 PM
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My first thought on 9mm for bear is that I'm going to use it on my self for mercy...

or not.

If you only gave me a 9mm for the woods, I'd make sure it was loaded with +P 115 Grain Xtreme Penetrator. It'd probably be better than the BB.
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