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Old 10-02-2017, 08:28 PM
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Default Less-lethal Ammo

In reading about the serious damage caused by the ammo used in the Las Vegas mass shooting, the issue of finding ammo that would provide a reasonable level of self protection came to mind.

When I was still in California I only owned, on a full-time basis, some .22 rifles. One was a Remington Fieldmaster pump and I bought .22 ammo with pellets instead of a slug. Made sense to me because I didn't need to be concerned about what it would take to cycle the rounds.

When we returned to Oklahoma I sold the rifles and now own an SD9VE and a .22 1911 replica (a nostalgia purchase). [No longer interested in hunting, no need for rifles.]

One pistol relies on recoil, the other on blowback, and this forum seems to say that there are some minimum loads to cycle these weapons.

I just had a look for less-lethal ammo and found a lot of shotgun shells and rubber bullets.

Does anyone know of a 9mm round that would provide self-protection without totally destroying someone?

I tend to believe, however, that the FBI tests in ballistic gel show that hollow-point ammo is appropriate. Maybe this is a lost-cause search.
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Old 10-02-2017, 09:02 PM
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Does anyone know of a 9mm round that would provide self-protection without totally destroying someone?
9 mm bullets do not "totally destroy" people, unless maybe you empty several dozen magazines into them. There is no less lethal handgun round that still provides rapid incapacitation, what you are asking for is physically impossible.

My suggestion would be to carry pepper spray as a less lethal option in addition to a 9 mm load with a strong track record in defensive shootings.
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Old 10-02-2017, 09:03 PM
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In a SD situation the #1 goal is to eliminate the threat by incapacitating the assailant as quickly as possible before they can do harm.

Ammunition specifically intended to be non-lethal is inherently counter-productive to that goal. Even the best self defense ammo does not guarantee an immediate stop of the assailant unless you can make a central nervous system shot.

The only kind of gun I know of that is non-lethal but incapacitating is a dart-style taser, and they have very limited range plus they can be defeated by a heavy leather jacket.

Rubber bullets and bean-bag rounds are only semi-effective and only when fired from a firearm with a large enough bore for the projectile to have enough mass to knock the attacker down. That means a shotgun. Not a very practical weapon to carry for self defense.

Non-lethal self defense weapons are a nice idea, but until someone invents a Star Trek beam-type phaser that has "stun" capability, it is just that - a nice (but impractical) idea.
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Old 10-02-2017, 09:32 PM
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This is a very interesting subject to me. I’ve done a lot of Googling and haven’t been able to find a really good solution. I did find one place which sells several different kinds of less than lethal pistol ammo. For at least .380 ammo - he/they sell a sport load and a defense load. I ordered 10 rounds of the sport load and have only fired one round so far. Bullets appear to be some kind of proprietary mix of wax and plastic. Occasionally, I carry my Glock 42 on evening walks and the first round up in it is one of these rubber bullet loads. I carry it that way because, in my assessment, the most likely scenario would be encountering an attacking dog - and hopefully the rubber bullet would scare or chase them off. If it didn’t, then I could rack the slide and the next one would be real. I hope none of the Tactical Ted’s see this post – otherwise I’m sure I will be subject to a rash of ridicule and condemnation ... . I have the good fortune to live in a gated community within a larger, and very safe, area.

Edited to add: search for Concepts in Ammunition if you are interested – I have no affiliation with the company.

Last edited by GeoJelly; 10-03-2017 at 06:03 AM.
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Old 10-02-2017, 10:47 PM
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This is a very interesting subject to me. I’ve done a lot of Googling and haven’t been able to find a really good solution. I did find one place which sells several different kinds of less than lethal pistol ammo. For at least .380 ammo - he/they sell a sport load and a defense load. I ordered 10 rounds of the sport load and have only fired one round so far. Bullets appear to be some kind of proprietary mix of wax and plastic. Occasionally, I carry my Glock 42 on evening walks and the first round up in it is one of these rubber bullet loads. I carry it that way because, in my assessment, the most likely scenario would be encountering an attacking dog - and hopefully the rubber bullet would scare or chase them off. If it didn’t, then I could rack the slide and the next one would be real. I hope none of the “Tactical Ted’s” see this post – otherwise I’m sure I will be subject to a rash of ridicule ... . I have the good fortune to live in a gated community within a larger, and very safe, area.

Edited to add: search for Concepts in Ammunition if you are interested – I have no affiliation with the company.
It's your life and your right to carry what you want, but I would not want anything that is guaranteed to jam on the first shot. If you get ambushed and your rubber bullet doesn't incapacitate the bad guy, what makes you think you'll have time to rack the slide? If I had to carry something like that I would at least load it into a revolver so I could pull the trigger again.

I don't consider myself a Tactical Ted but I've watched a few assaults on YouTube and there's usually not a lot of time to manipulate a pistol. How easily can you rack your Glock one handed?
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Old 10-02-2017, 11:38 PM
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Default Less than lethal

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9 mm bullets do not "totally destroy" people, unless maybe you empty several dozen magazines into them. There is no less lethal handgun round that still provides rapid incapacitation, what you are asking for is physically impossible.

<snip>
I may be overkilling an underkill issue. I guess I reacted to some of the doctors comments in Vegas about cavitation in the victims bodies. I don't know the velocity of the rounds shot in Vegas but did measure the distance, which is 1,000' minimum. (actually 1,172 minimum on Google earth)

I've looked at videos of ballistic gel shots which usually reference some FBI standard. In those shots there isn't much fragmentation, but usually good expansion.

My conclusion is to carry a standard hollow point. I am not an EDC person and live in a very safe area. I have a concealed carry permit and tuck the SD in the car on trips to, or through, troubled areas.

I appreciate all the constructive answers and will look at any which follow.

I do have a Las Vegas story, not exactly gun related. I used to have medical practice (software) accounts in Vegas and one night I was left alone in a large radiology facility. Late one night I picked the wrong exit, used the wrong code, and bought the police. Luckily one of the owners showed up just after the police stopped me at gunpoint.
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Old 10-03-2017, 12:10 AM
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Does anyone know of a 9mm round that would provide self-protection without totally destroying someone?
There is no way I can say this without sounding harsh, and such is not my intent, but I think you need to step back and ask yourself if you are mentally and/or emotionally prepared to use a gun for self defense. In order to shoot someone, you must feel that your life is in danger, or the lives of your loved ones, and you should be prepared to end the threat. Trying to wound someone will more than likely result in your own death or that of the ones you seek to protect. Unless you are an expert marksman and extremely cool under stress and pressure, it's very difficult to hit someone in a non-lethal point...and it's not a given that any wound is non-lethal. Hit someone's femoral artery, and they could bleed out in a very short time. Or the wound could not stop them at all...and they would be in your face, shoot you, etc. You don't have to use excessive force, either...once someone is down and not posing an immediate threat, it would be wrong to keep shooting them. The whole point is to eliminate the threat, but in order to do that, you need to be prepared to shoot to kill.

Then there is the legal consideration...if you don't feel sufficiently threatened to shoot to kill, you might have to answer for why you shot someone in the first place, and be liable for damages, medical costs, etc. if they survived...especially depending on the laws of your state.

If you can't mentally and emotionally face the possibility of shooting someone in self-defense, to the point that you want a non-lethal round, then a gun isn't for you (except for recreation like target shooting.) I'm not criticizing you...there are a lot of people who feel that way. There have been LEOs who found out after a shooting in the line of duty that they never wanted to do it again, so it's not just civilians.

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Old 10-03-2017, 12:20 AM
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And I want to be the one to tell the story.
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Old 10-03-2017, 01:11 AM
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Default I know that they have used....

They have used rubber bullets and beanbags in the past and probably still would in an appropriate situation. But if I remember right, some deaths were caused by rounds hitting the heart area. It seems the effectiveness vs the risk isn't all that great.
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Old 10-03-2017, 09:59 AM
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In reading about the serious damage caused by the ammo used in the Las Vegas mass shooting, the issue of finding ammo that would provide a reasonable level of self protection came to mind.../ /...
You do realize of course that the Las Vegas shootings were done at a range of about 400 yards, and using high velocity rifle rounds, right?

If you put the two together, you are in essentially then asking about less lethal rifle rounds. The answer to that came with the Hague conventions in 1899 and 1907, where article IV section 3 stated:

"The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions."

This essentially banned soft point and 'dum-dum' bullets from use in warfare - at least between signatory countries.

On the other hand, the countries involved almost immediately started exploring the phenomenon of high velocity rifle bullets tumbling on impact to improve terminal effectiveness. The British in particular found .276" (land diameter, .284" groove diameter) to be ideal in this regard in a full power battle rifle cartridge and were planning to adopt a .276" cartridge in the Pattern 13 Enfield when WWI broke out and scuttled that plan. After WWI, they had too much .303 ammunition and too many .303 caliber SMLEs (along with a bunch of .303 chambered Pattern 14 Enfields) in the inventory to even consider a switch. After WWII they proposed two intermediate cartridges in .276 caliber - the .276 British and the compromise .276/30, which could be produced on tooling designed for the .30-06, for use as the standard NATO cartridge.

In the early 1960s the US developed the 5.56mm M193 ball round which was specifically designed to tumble and fragment, greatly increasing it's terminal effectiveness - and pretty much flying entirely in the face of the Hague conventions, without actually violating them.

-----

On the civilian side of the house, if you eliminate soft point ammunition you will greatly decrease the lethality of the ammunition. However, that is a bad thing as it also means that you'll make it much more difficult to get clean and humane kills on game animals. In shot, you'd be degrading the primary and normal function of hunting ammunition just to reduce the damage caused in the extremely rare instances when a psycho with a long gun shoots people.

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I just had a look for less-lethal ammo and found a lot of shotgun shells and rubber bullets.
The problem with these less lethal rounds is exactly that - they are only less lethal. Hit someone in the head with a large rubber bullet from a shotgun and they are very likely to be just as dead as if you shot them with an actual lead bullet - or just as brain damaged, which can be worse from a civil liability perspective.

Way back in the day there was a school of thought in law enforcement of "shooting to wound" as a means to reduce the lethality of officer involved shoots. However, in practice the result was that officers shot more frequently, with less provocation, and in the long run killed more suspects. The end result was going back to a "shoot center of mass" philosophy, with an intent to rapidly incapacitate an assailant - and because lethal force was being used, to only shoot when absolutely necessary. The war on drugs and the promotion of threats to officers lives as justification to shoot when a minimum legal justification is present (rather than only when absolutely necessary) has distorted this a bit, but the pendulum is starting to swing back to a less extreme position.


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Does anyone know of a 9mm round that would provide self-protection without totally destroying someone?

I tend to believe, however, that the FBI tests in ballistic gel show that hollow-point ammo is appropriate. Maybe this is a lost-cause search.
In terms of handgun and self defense ammunition, hollow points improve the odds of stopping an assailant in the minimum number of shots. In fact, using less lethal FMJ ammunition would more often than not result in more hits being needed to stop an assailant and the increased number of wound tracks would actually increase lethality.

A trauma surgeon I used to consult with (who had experience with about 1500 gun shot wounds) indicated that the more times a person was shot, the more wound tracks were created, and the more organs and systems were potentially damaged, with each wound track making it much harder for a surgeon to repair all the cumulative damage.

For example if you have a .22 LR pistol with 10 rounds, you would probably find yourself having to put all 10 into the assailant in hopes of stopping him, and you probably wouldn't be successful doing that with shots to his torso. The limited penetration and small wound tracks would limit immediate blood loss, and thus not get rapid incapacitation. However those 10 wound tracks would create enough cumulative damage that the assailant would be very likely to die hours or days later.

In short, well placed hollow points both stop assailants and save not just police officer lives but also the lives of assailants who end up being shot fewer times.

Hollow points also reduce the risk of over penetration where an over penetrating round may hit an innocent bystander. Give the 20 or so percentage hit rate for officer involved shoots, it's arguable about whether reducing over penetration matters when 8 out of 10 rounds are misses that skip all over the neighborhood anyway.

However for an armed citizen who holds full civil and criminal liability for each round fired, avoiding over penetration is something you should be concerned about, and hollow points are your best method of doing that in an effective self defense caliber.

Last edited by BB57; 10-03-2017 at 10:20 AM.
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Old 10-03-2017, 10:51 AM
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Hi OU1954, this is your friend the Oklahoma physicist.
Your premise that your 9mm is comparable to the machine gun/ rifle ammunition (5.56 mm NATO) used by the Las Vegas murderer is embarrassingly naïve.
The rifle bullet goes about 3 times as fast and has many times the energy and destructive effect. (Energy is proportional to the square of speed)


Simply by using a 9mm handgun, you already have chosen a less lethal weapon and ammunition (but much more practical to carry for defense).
Suggest you rent a rifle at the OKC range and witness the difference.
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Old 10-03-2017, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ou1954 View Post
In reading about the serious damage caused by the ammo used in the Las Vegas mass shooting, the issue of finding ammo that would provide a reasonable level of self protection came to mind.

When I was still in California I only owned, on a full-time basis, some .22 rifles. One was a Remington Fieldmaster pump and I bought .22 ammo with pellets instead of a slug. Made sense to me because I didn't need to be concerned about what it would take to cycle the rounds.

When we returned to Oklahoma I sold the rifles and now own an SD9VE and a .22 1911 replica (a nostalgia purchase). [No longer interested in hunting, no need for rifles.]

One pistol relies on recoil, the other on blowback, and this forum seems to say that there are some minimum loads to cycle these weapons.

I just had a look for less-lethal ammo and found a lot of shotgun shells and rubber bullets.

Does anyone know of a 9mm round that would provide self-protection without totally destroying someone?

I tend to believe, however, that the FBI tests in ballistic gel show that hollow-point ammo is appropriate. Maybe this is a lost-cause search.
I can kind of understand you, kind of, I have come to wonder if an old white man would not be better off if he is able to defend himself without killing the attacker
That said you have to also assume that most attackers today are going to be armed, most likely with a stolen G19 w/17 rounds.
If I were you I would look into a 380 with FMJ I most of the time carry a LCP II w/ HST.
You could also look at the 'judge' a revolver that shoots 410 shotgun shells & load it with bird shot.
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Old 10-03-2017, 03:20 PM
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Everybody knows that the bad guys lie.
That's an assumption, not a legal defense.
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Old 10-03-2017, 04:31 PM
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Nope......not gunna say it......nope. Hey, look how I saved a DING!
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Old 10-03-2017, 06:26 PM
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i dont want less than lethal ammo
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Old 10-03-2017, 07:05 PM
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I may be overkilling an underkill issue. I guess I reacted to some of the doctors comments in Vegas about cavitation in the victims bodies. I don't know the velocity of the rounds shot in Vegas but did measure the distance, which is 1,000' minimum. (actually 1,172 minimum on Google earth)

I've looked at videos of ballistic gel shots which usually reference some FBI standard. In those shots there isn't much fragmentation, but usually good expansion.

My conclusion is to carry a standard hollow point. I am not an EDC person and live in a very safe area. I have a concealed carry permit and tuck the SD in the car on trips to, or through, troubled areas.

I appreciate all the constructive answers and will look at any which follow.

I do have a Las Vegas story, not exactly gun related. I used to have medical practice (software) accounts in Vegas and one night I was left alone in a large radiology facility. Late one night I picked the wrong exit, used the wrong code, and bought the police. Luckily one of the owners showed up just after the police stopped me at gunpoint.
The doctors in Vegas typically see handgun wounds not rifle wounds.

There's no such thing as overkill. It either kills or it it doesn't. The point of self defense is NOT to kill but to stop the threat in the fastest way possible. Good quality hollow points do that (yes nothing is 100% guaranteed)

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Old 10-04-2017, 12:05 AM
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Hi OU1954, this is your friend the Oklahoma physicist.

Your premise that your 9mm is comparable to the machine gun/ rifle ammunition (5.56 mm NATO) used by the Las Vegas murderer is embarrassingly naïve.

The rifle bullet goes about 3 times as fast and has many times the energy and destructive effect. (Energy is proportional to the square of speed)

Simply by using a 9mm handgun, you already have chosen a less lethal weapon and ammunition (but much more practical to carry for defense).

Suggest you rent a rifle at the OKC range and witness the difference.
I re-read one post where I seem to conflate the destructive power of a 9mm hand gun with the destructive power of the Las Vegas rifle after a ~1,000 ' flight. That was poorly written and I apologize.

I'm now 85 years old and owned rifles from the age of 12 or so, in Oklahoma. I graduated from Oklahoma University, BS Engineering Physics in 1954 and then served in the Navy in the Pacific, serving as Electronics and ASW Officer on a destroyer and was OOD underway at night. After release from the Navy I went into Missile tracking systems design and ultimately into high energy capacitor discharge systems.

Along the way I got my MS in engineering from UCLA (1962) and the thesis got me invited to work for the Dutch Government in The Netherlands. I then returned to California and returned to aerospace until I started a Computer systems house.

I have presented scientific papers at several venues in the United States, a NATO Conference in London, and in Paris, Leiden, and Japan.

I eventually retired and returned to my home state of Oklahoma in 2007. I consulted here for 4-5 years but am now fully retired.

So, end result is that I can actually deal with Mass, Velocity, and Energy.
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Old 10-04-2017, 12:17 AM
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-----
<snip>

On the civilian side of the house, if you eliminate soft point ammunition you will greatly decrease the lethality of the ammunition. However, that is a bad thing as it also means that you'll make it much more difficult to get clean and humane kills on game animals. In shot, you'd be degrading the primary and normal function of hunting ammunition just to reduce the damage caused in the extremely rare instances when a psycho with a long gun shoots people.

<snip>
Just commenting on that . . . I worked one summer during High School in Texas, Odessa specifically. It was in an oil field machine shop owned by the father of a former Oklahoma buddy.

We had the opportunity to go jack rabbit hunting a few times, actually something desired at that time.

I remember the first time out . . . we were sure we had hit a rabbit but he kept on running. We drove back to town and bought .22 LR Hollow point.

Result . . . one shot kills.
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Old 10-04-2017, 04:34 AM
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So, end result is that I can actually deal with Mass, Velocity, and Energy.
I think, sir, that this has proven to be a pretty civil forum over the 18 years or so I have been a member. That said, there are some members who are convinced they know everything, and a few of them have a tendency to talk "down" to other members. As you have seen, if someone does not use razor-accurate language or terminology, then comments of this sort can bring out the worst from those commenters. And, many times their comments will not be kind or gentle. Most members will make civil and respectful comments - others, not so much. I have seen occasions, in other threads in the past, where the less-than-civil commenters wind up getting a thread closed/locked by the moderators because of name-calling and other such activity. As I stated in my first post, you brought up a subject about which I am very interested. With all of this said, I am still researching less-than-lethal rounds. As mentioned above, I have the good fortune to live in a low-threat environment - but I am concerned about the potential for an encounter with an aggressive and/or dangerous dog. I do think - and I could well be wrong - that using a less-lethal round would cause fewer problems with both the homeowners association and law enforcement. It may work out that I wind up buying something along the lines of a Taser pistol. Having accumulated a wee bit of wisdom these past seven decades, I am not so paranoid as to think that I need a Glock 17 and four mags every time I step out of the house!

Last edited by GeoJelly; 10-04-2017 at 07:44 PM. Reason: Added comments about Taser
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Old 10-04-2017, 04:13 PM
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With all due respect get a slingshot
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Old 10-04-2017, 07:10 PM
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It is not the projectile that caused the most trauma when shot, given one that holds together well. It is the hydrostatic shock of something travelling at a relatively high velocity through muscle and tissue that is composed of a lot of fluid. This fluid (blood, water etc) cannot compress and goes on to cause further tissue damage. That is why the "tumbling" rifle bullets caused so much damage to the victims.

In the case of frangible rounds the kinetic energy is dumped into tissue rather quickly, and the resulting fragments do tear tissue and blood vessels, which leads to more extensive wounds and why there has been a movement to ban frangible projectiles in some places.

Personally, if it is necessary to shoot someone it is not to either kill or wound, it is to stop them inflicting death or grevious bodily harm on either yourself and another and under circumstances where no less level of force will achieve this.

If you feel you need a less than lethal option then as said above, carry some pepper spray. Otherwise select a decent projectile (what your local law enforcement department carry is ideal) and rely on "stopping" any offender with the least number of rounds of required and in the shortest possible time.

Oh, andvthrough experince pepper spray really works well on aggressive dogs. I once executed a search warrant when the offender was not home and had to spray a dog inside before I could get through an open window. When I had to go back post arrest to collect items we had not known were stolen the dog appeared again but ran as soon as I presented the can of spray.
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Old 10-04-2017, 07:14 PM
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"but I am concerned about the potential for an encounter with an aggressive and/or dangerous dog."
ZAP CANE
My stun gun in a cane is very effective in deterring dogs just by the sound of triggering it. Anywhere stun guns are legal.
https://www.brickhousesecurity.com/product/zap+cane.do
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Old 10-04-2017, 08:02 PM
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With all due respect get a slingshot
What kind of projectile do you use?
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Old 10-05-2017, 01:43 PM
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What kind of projectile do you use?
small ball bearings or bb's and I have used # 6 birdshot
seems to really ruin their day but non lethal
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Old 10-05-2017, 03:15 PM
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small ball bearings or bb's and I have used # 6 birdshot
seems to really ruin their day but non lethal
Just don't aim at birds, cause it will be lethal then.

I wish I knew where my two slingshots were. Haven't had them since high school.
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Old 10-05-2017, 05:44 PM
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I don't shoot birds my friend
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Old 10-05-2017, 05:50 PM
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I have been playing with slingshots for the last few years
I bought one at a gun show several years ago
As a kid we made our own with them carved out of hickory or oak
we used old bike or car inner tubes and they work pretty well
brings back a lot of memories when I was a kid
what about you
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Old 10-05-2017, 07:18 PM
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Default Slingshots and more [I hope less]

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I have been playing with slingshots for the last few years. I bought one at a gun show several years ago.
As a kid we made our own with them carved out of hickory or oak.

We used old bike or car inner tubes and they work pretty well
brings back a lot of memories when I was a kid.

What about you?
I suspect most folks here who are over 40 have been through the slingshot, rubber band gun, and BB gun phases. I have . . . finishing with a .22 rifle.

What I hope for now is an end to discussion about weapons outside this forum.

The opening post was a question within the definition of the forum. It has expanded to shotguns, slingshots, Mace, Tasers, electronic canes, and more.

If anyone had suggestions within the range of SD, Sigma, etc., I, and many other folks would welcome them. I hope off-topic comments will be posted on a more appropriate forum.

[Lonestar Outlaw - Not singling you out, I just needed something to link to. I have seen the ads for new-style factory-made slingshots, and was tempted. I'll stay with the Y from a tree. ]

Last edited by ou1954; 10-05-2017 at 07:24 PM. Reason: Clarify
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Old 10-05-2017, 08:03 PM
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What I hope for now is an end to discussion about weapons outside this forum.
You've been a member here for almost three years now...plenty of time to learn that ain't gonna happen.

As for your private message, I don't carry 24/7. There are times at home when I don't have a gun on me (especially when in the shower, swimming, etc.) There are times when I can't legally carry (like when I take my wife to the doctor) or any place else prohibited by law. (In those cases, I lock my gun in a safe in the car.)

As for any circumstance when I've had to use a gun for self or home defense, no. I have owned guns since 1973, except for a few years along the way, and there have been a couple of times that I certainly wished I had a gun when I didn't, but fortunately the incidents didn't result in serious injury. (I was beaten up pretty badly in a mugging, which I think would have gone differently had I been carrying at the time.) I do not and will not look for trouble, but if trouble comes I want to be able to defend myself and my loved ones to the best of my ability.

To which point, I'll answer a question I asked you. I have never shot a human being, and unless and until I do (which I pray is never necessary) I won't know for certain how I will feel about it. However, to the best of my knowledge now, if I feel that my life or the lives of my loved ones are in danger, I am mentally and emotionally prepared to end that threat. The point is not to intend to kill, and certainly not to WANT to kill, but the point is being prepared to do that to end the threat if that is what is necessary. Trying to find non-lethal rounds or trying to aim for non-lethal wound points is, in my opinion, to avoid the right state of mind to have a gun. Again, no one should intend or want to kill, but to be prepared to do so to end a threat...and when you are at the point of needing to use a gun, that is the most extreme situation, and non-lethal options almost certainly don't exist at that point.
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Old 10-05-2017, 08:20 PM
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Ken (GKZ) - You are probably right about not being able to focus this forum thread on "less lethal" use of the SD/Sigma firearms.

As you say, "that ain't gonna happen."

I would suggest, however, that weapon use would fit better in the "Concealed Carry and Self Defense" forum.

Last edited by ou1954; 10-05-2017 at 08:23 PM.
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Old 10-06-2017, 05:26 PM
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Ken (GKZ) - You are probably right about not being able to focus this forum thread on "less lethal" use of the SD/Sigma firearms.

As you say, "that ain't gonna happen."

I would suggest, however, that weapon use would fit better in the "Concealed Carry and Self Defense" forum.
I would suggest if you are not prepared to take a life in selfdefense then you should not carry a deadly weapon.
As far as I know there is no "less lethal" center fire cartridge for 380, 9mm, 40S&W, 45acp or 10mm that is not deadly & I am sure that covers all SD & Sigma pistols. So then that ' for me ' ends your limited discussion.

Last edited by micocyco; 10-06-2017 at 05:37 PM.
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Old 10-06-2017, 05:55 PM
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OK I lied , one more post , this is way out side your parameters , but I don't know if you are serious or just want to complain, so here is your weapon & yes it is not a SD or Sigma .
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Old 10-06-2017, 06:44 PM
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I worked one shooting where the guy used less-lethal ammo. He was getting thumped on a regular basis by his much larger brother-in-law, and finally reached his getting-thumped limit. He loaded up his Rossi .38 with factory shotloads and let his tormentor have one right in his fat thigh. It most definitely worked - the BIL howled like a werewolf and carried himself to the ER.

My partner actually got the case, I just went along to help. It looked like self-defense to me - there was a large disparity in size and the shooter obviously took pains to not kill Gigantor. My partner was of the opinion that all shootings should be charged and got an indictment for attempted murder, at which time the shooter killed himself with a .22 rifle he had stashed in his barn.

In that instance at least the round worked, even if the system didn't.
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Old 10-06-2017, 07:32 PM
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My partner was of the opinion that all shootings should be charged and got an indictment for attempted murder, at which time the shooter killed himself with a .22 rifle he had stashed in his barn.
Hence the saying, "Better to be judged by 12 than to be carried by 6." Except in this case, the shooter got both results.
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Old 10-06-2017, 11:06 PM
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Well, I didn't see any postings which specifically respond to the original question which was about selection of 9mm ammo but see several comments which were helpful.

During this week I did talk to a couple of law enforcement guys, one local and one state. I talked to the local LEO guy who lives in this development and also got a look at the tires on his car, which are indeed larger than standard. I thought they would be but he hadn't noticed.

I also ran into the state guy who was checking in with me at the same medical office. He was carrying a Glock, (I could tell by looking at the bottom of the magazine) not sure what model, and I didn't want to ask. He did show me how his holster worked . . . no latch or catch, just tilt it back to release.

[Just for reference, here is a part of my original post. "I tend to believe, however, that the FBI tests in ballistic gel show that hollow-point ammo is appropriate. Maybe this is a lost-cause search."]

Thanks to everyone who tried to help.

Last edited by ou1954; 10-07-2017 at 12:08 AM. Reason: Add comment from original post
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Old 10-06-2017, 11:59 PM
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No . . . .

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Originally Posted by ou1954 View Post
In reading about the serious damage caused by the ammo used in the Las Vegas mass shooting, the issue of finding ammo that would provide a reasonable level of self protection came to mind.

When I was still in California I only owned, on a full-time basis, some .22 rifles. One was a Remington Fieldmaster pump and I bought .22 ammo with pellets instead of a slug. Made sense to me because I didn't need to be concerned about what it would take to cycle the rounds.

When we returned to Oklahoma I sold the rifles and now own an SD9VE and a .22 1911 replica (a nostalgia purchase). [No longer interested in hunting, no need for rifles.]

One pistol relies on recoil, the other on blowback, and this forum seems to say that there are some minimum loads to cycle these weapons.

I just had a look for less-lethal ammo and found a lot of shotgun shells and rubber bullets.

Does anyone know of a 9mm round that would provide self-protection without totally destroying someone?

I tend to believe, however, that the FBI tests in ballistic gel show that hollow-point ammo is appropriate. Maybe this is a lost-cause search.
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Old 10-07-2017, 01:43 AM
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OK I lied , one more post , this is way out side your parameters , but I don't know if you are serious or just want to complain, so here is your weapon & yes it is not a SD or Sigma . Less lethal gun being used in Arizona - YouTube
I don't understand the "just want to complain" phrase, no intention to complain.

There are indeed some alternatives to a firearm that deserve investigation. The video actually links to more than one item.

[Although outside my initial query, I have requested information about several of the items linked to the video. May make some sense in this household. Some of the items are not yet available in the USA and the Salt handgun company did survive, apparently after a shaky startup.]

Thanks.

Last edited by ou1954; 10-07-2017 at 02:25 AM. Reason: Added [ ] comment
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Old 10-07-2017, 08:28 AM
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Sir, it sounds as though you had an interesting work career, and thank you for your military service. CA is a very different place than when you went to UCLA...

In regard to your specific question, any 9 mm ammo that is intended to deliver or loaded to less than full power levels will be paradoxically both less likely to stop an attacker (see post 34) and may still kill (a rubber bullet to the sternum may do exactly that). Also as you noted, in a semi-auto like the SD9VE it takes a minimum amount of recoil energy to cycle the action, and underpowered ammo may not do it, effectively turning your 17 round pistol into a manually operated repeater.

There is a reason bean bag, rubber bullet or "salt" guns, pepper spray, and Tasers are deliberately called "less than lethal" - under the right (or wrong) circumstances they can and will kill. Not to say you shouldn't buy and learn to use them, but if a situation escalates to the point in which deadly force is justified, personally I would have the 9 mm loaded with the most effective defensive ammo available in case the less effective methods fail. The goal is always to stop the attacker, but sometimes it will take a firearm to do this despite your best intentions.

Good luck in your decisions.
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Old 10-07-2017, 09:34 AM
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Default If you want to be 'humane'...

FMJ Round Nose Bullets are probably the least effective at stopping or killing someone quickly. Range will be reduced, if you are talking about long distance this wouldn't be practical, but close in, yeah it would. Since the only way that I would fire at somebody would be a dire emergency, I don't want to be 'soft' on the perpetrator.

PS: I've also decided that if I pull a trigger on someone, I'm not going to just pull it once. I want the most effective 'attack stopper'.
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Old 10-07-2017, 11:06 AM
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Ok, if you truly want options for less to more lethal capabilities, there are some options, but in my opinion, they lie in using revolvers rather than semi-autos.

My recommendation would be to buy a 38 special or .357 magnum. Load he following rounds in order:
1. One Buckshot load - it probably won't be lethal, and shot placement isn't as critical because the shot spreads
2. One Remington Target .38 Short Colt - it will make a nice hole,and cause a lot of pain, but probably won't be lethal
3. One or two (depending on capacity) standard velocity hollow points like Winchester Train and Defend (Alternatively you can use one or two lead wad cutters)
4. The rest should be .38 special +P (or .357 depending on the gun) hollow points.

A less than determined attacker will be deterred by the first shot, or the bleeding from the second. More determined attackers will be stopped by the following shots, and since it's a revolver, you won't have to worry about cycling. If it's a hopped up crackhead or a gang, then you'll probably need a lot more firepower, or run away really fast.

Last edited by Mr_Flintstone; 10-07-2017 at 11:07 AM.
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Old 10-07-2017, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ou1954 View Post
I don't understand the "just want to complain" phrase, no intention to complain.

There are indeed some alternatives to a firearm that deserve investigation. The video actually links to more than one item.

[Although outside my initial query, I have requested information about several of the items linked to the video. May make some sense in this household. Some of the items are not yet available in the USA and the Salt handgun company did survive, apparently after a shaky startup.]

Thanks.
My complain comment was about you seeming to think your thread should stick to your narrow post. That I think there is no way you could not know would run the way it did. I would challenge you to find one thread here that has not run off subject. I for one want to read even very far outside the box comments. Thinking outside the box may get you what you want I don't think you are ever going to get it with your SD.
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Old 10-07-2017, 11:28 AM
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You should read Jim Cirillo's "Guns, Bullets, and Gunfights." One story is about a bad guy who took eleven LRN .38 specials to the head and only got a headache and a bloody nose. He found the wadcutter was a "better" round than a round nose. Like in a target the wadcutter cuts the tissue while the round nose wound cavity closed after the bullet passed through. The wadcutter also bit into bone, like the skull, instead of bouncing off. He also found JHP will act just like round nose if the nose cavity fills with cloth or filling from something like a down jacket. This suggests the FMJ in 9mm would be a less lethal round.
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Old 10-07-2017, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by micocyco View Post
My complain comment was about you seeming to think your thread should stick to your narrow post. That I think there is no way you could not know would run the way it did. I would challenge you to find one thread here that has not run off subject. I for one want to read even very far outside the box comments. Thinking outside the box may get you what you want I don't think you are ever going to get it with your SD.
I think my post, the one you quoted above, accepts that notion.

With respect to "thinking outside the box", my book on "Real World Engineering" in near final form, describes my experience in 56 years in industry and has a chapter titled:

"Thinking outside the box . . . There is no box"
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Old 10-18-2017, 05:48 PM
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Very early in training the Corps taught me not to point a weapon at someone you didn't intend to kill. This is good advice. Once you pull a firearm on someone it gets bad fast.
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Old 10-18-2017, 09:05 PM
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Very early in training the Corps taught me not to point a weapon at someone you didn't intend to kill. This is good advice. Once you pull a firearm on someone it gets bad fast.
Learned that in grade school, with my BB gun. "Don't point that, you could put someone's eye out." Heard it every time I had the gun in my hands . . . drilled in.

And it continued with my .22, and so on.
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Old 10-18-2017, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by micocyco View Post
OK I lied , one more post , this is way out side your parameters , but I don't know if you are serious or just want to complain, so here is your weapon & yes it is not a SD or Sigma . Less lethal gun being used in Arizona - YouTube
Very interesting idea, thanks for posting. Not what I plan on carrying but might be an option for those who want another less lethal option.
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Old 10-19-2017, 02:04 AM
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Believe it or not, I recall that Bersa (of Argentina) was marketing one of their very popular .380 pistols in what they called a "less than lethal" package. I personally thought was an ill conceived idea, and apparently they eventually did, too, because I stopped seeing them before very long. This was several years ago.

The idea that a .380 could be turned into something between a stun gun and a lethal firearm seemed dubious, at best. True, most people don't die for handgun wounds, and true, .380 isn't the most powerful cartridge, but my confidence in the manufacturer's claim would be low, even with light loads. To be fair, I don't know what kind of ammo they're talking about, but they did include it in the package, as I recall.

The defenzia video that someone posted could be an option. Looks promising. Though I'm not in line with the OP's intent, I don't find his goal silly or foolish. We all have to develop our philosophy of defense for ourselves.
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Old 10-19-2017, 04:51 PM
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Hi. Midway USA has CCI 9mm shot shells. 53 gr. #12 shot-box of 10- and 45 gr. #4 shot-box of 10, about 11 or 12 bucks a box. Read a piece about them awhile back and you'll have to manually rack the slide each shot. If you're convinced you want to carry less lethal, might look at those loads. I have to use real bullets cause I ain't able to run. Good luck and be safe.
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Last edited by snuffy51; 10-19-2017 at 04:52 PM.
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