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  #1  
Old 04-02-2010, 11:32 PM
headless1916 headless1916 is offline
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5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't?  
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Default 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't?

Hey all,
I am the proud owner of a 5906 as of this week, and was looking at the pistol in detail and comparing it to my 659. Lots of nice improvements.

One thing that surprised me, however, was that I noticed with my 659 if you pull the hammer back halfway and then release it/let it slip from your thumb, there is a 'half cocked' detent that catches the hammer before it falls fully on the firing pin...

On my 5906, it appears that this doesn't happen; if I fully cock or partially cock the hammer, then release the trigger as the hammer is released downwards, it appears to fully fall to the firing pin. Is that normal for a 5906? It seems strange that a 659 would do this but the newer 5906 doesn't.
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  #2  
Old 04-03-2010, 05:46 AM
goldenlight goldenlight is offline
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Cool

Yes, that's normal for a 5906.

Thew same goes comparing the 469/669 to the 6906/6904.

I really liked, and really miss, the 'half cock' feature on the 2nd gen semiautos.
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  #3  
Old 04-03-2010, 01:40 PM
headless1916 headless1916 is offline
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5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't?  
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aww man. That's too bad Seems strange that they'd take a step backwards like that
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  #4  
Old 04-03-2010, 05:51 PM
GJH77 GJH77 is offline
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5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't?  
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Default half cock position

First let me say that I did not start acquiring S&W autos until relatively recently. Now having acquired a 1st, 2nd and 3rd gen gun and reading several versions of their manuals, this is how I understand the evolution.
The half cock position was a first generation feature, since they had no firing pin block safety and for carry. But their instructions do not mention the use of half cock.
As they transitioned into the 2nd gen weapons, they added the firing pin block, but retained the half cock notch, for convenience, familiarity, using up old triggers/parts?? In fact many of the 2nd gen guns, my 469 included, were recalled in 1986 or so because the safety/decock lever would not go into safety position if the gun was in half cock.( In fact just now looking at it, I realized that my 39-2 also will not go into safe if it is in half cock.)
With the 3rd gen guns, the manual specifically points out that some 3rd gen guns did have that halfcock notch, but that the need for a half cock for safety or use is eliminated with the block and the decocker lever. Hopefully someone with better knowledge of the design and early use can weigh in.
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  #5  
Old 04-03-2010, 07:40 PM
shawn mccarver shawn mccarver is online now
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5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't?  
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The half-cock notch is a safety feature of auto pistols designed to prevent the weapon from discharging in the event the shooter is cocking the hammer and it slips. The half-cock notch stops the hammer from going all the way down to strike the firing pin, which would discharge the weapon in a weapon without a firing pin block.

The feature was eliminated on the third gen autos as superfluous since there is a firing pin block which prevents forward movement of the firing pin even if struck by a falling hammer unless the trigger is pulled.

Always be careful to make sure in replacing the hammer in a Smith double action auto that the correct generation hammer is used for the pistol in question.

Also, half-cock is NEVER a safe position for carry, whether in an S&W or 1911 or a Colt Single Action revolver. A 1911, for example, that is in half-cock, WILL discharge if the hammer falls from the half-cock position for any reason. It is comparatively easy to shear the notch with a relatively light blow by an elbow or similar. Note that Series 80 Colts have a "safety shelf" instead of the half-cock notch as on the Series 70 and earlier 1911s which stops the hammer at a position MUCH closer to the "down" or rest position, such that, if the hammer falls from that position, the firing pin is not struck with sufficient force to discharge the weapon.

NEVER intentionally place the weapon in the half-cock notch. (There may be one or two exceptions to this rule in European designs actually designed for that, but the best position for any of the traditional makes based on the Browning designs is NEVER intentionally place the hammer on half cock.)

Last edited by shawn mccarver; 04-03-2010 at 07:48 PM.
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  #6  
Old 04-06-2010, 02:56 AM
headless1916 headless1916 is offline
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5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't?  
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Good to know - thanks for the information, shawn. I am reassured
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Old 04-06-2010, 09:44 AM
GJH77 GJH77 is offline
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5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't?  
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Default Half Cock Position

Shawn,
Good points. I would never carry a weapon in half cock, and have never used it, and questioned why the instructions say to gently pull the trigger to get it there. Seemed unsafe to me. I assumed it was a hold over from the 1911's where the half cock was the last point of safety if a cocked hammer was to be fall unintentionally, and the halfcock was to save the hammer from hitting the round to discharge it. With my 469, and its bobbed hammer, getting it out of halfcock would have been a real problem. Guess that is why they had the recall when they figured out the decock would not work if in halfcock.
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  #8  
Old 04-06-2010, 02:03 PM
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snw19_357 snw19_357 is offline
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5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GJH77 View Post
With the 3rd gen guns, the manual specifically points out that some 3rd gen guns did have that halfcock notch, but that the need for a half cock for safety or use is eliminated with the block and the decocker lever.
Yes, the 3rd gen models with the frame mounted decocking levers (FMDL) were designed to use the half-cock notch. The decocking lever would lower the hammer to the half-cock. It was designed to be carried and fired from that position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GJH77 View Post
… questioned why the instructions say to gently pull the trigger to get it there….
I am curious which manual you read that in. The only mention of lowering the hammer to the half-cock I have seen in any manual is in the FMDL manual and that says to use the decocking lever, not pull the trigger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GJH77 View Post
…With my 469, and its bobbed hammer, getting it out of halfcock would have been a real problem...
I don’t think the manual safety lever on S&W pistols was designed to drop the hammer from half-cock.
Since the top of the bobbed hammer on a 469/669 is serrated, the way to safely drop the hammer would be to fully cock the hammer and then rotate the manual safety lever down to the safe position.

But, as has been mentioned, the half-cock was originally a safety feature made obsolete by the firing pin block safety.
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  #9  
Old 04-06-2010, 04:07 PM
GJH77 GJH77 is offline
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5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't?  
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Default half cock

Quote:
Yes, the 3rd gen models with the frame mounted decocking levers (FMDL) were designed to use the half-cock notch. The decocking lever would lower the hammer to the half-cock. It was designed to be carried and fired from that position.
Actually the decocking lever drops the hammer all the way past the halfcock notch and against the firing pin block. You can fire it from there once you release the safety.
Quote:
I don’t think the manual safety lever on S&W pistols was designed to drop the hammer from half-cock.
Since the top of the bobbed hammer on a 469/669 is serrated, the way to safely drop the hammer would be to fully cock the hammer and then rotate the manual safety lever down to the safe position.
The recall notice said it was meant to be able to drop from the half cock, and that was the problem which generated the recall- some of those pistols would not decock the gun from the half cock. And with that small hammer the serrations are not much help to fully cock the gun.
You may be right about the manual. I will check later and see. I glanced thru some of the other manuals on line, and did not see it, so I may have been confusing that with someone else's information I dug up somewhere back then on the 2nd generation weapons.
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  #10  
Old 04-06-2010, 04:13 PM
GJH77 GJH77 is offline
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5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't?  
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Default correction

snw19_357
It was the recall notice itself which gave that instruction to pull the trigger to the halfcock, not the manuals. That was the test to see if your the particular gun would decock from that position.
Sorry for that.
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  #11  
Old 04-06-2010, 04:25 PM
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snw19_357 snw19_357 is offline
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5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GJH77 View Post
Actually the decocking lever drops the hammer all the way past the halfcock notch and against the firing pin block. You can fire it from there once you release the safety.
It shouldn't. The decocking pawl and lever might be misaligned.

Last edited by snw19_357; 04-06-2010 at 07:07 PM. Reason: removed hotlink!!
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  #12  
Old 04-06-2010, 04:35 PM
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5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GJH77 View Post
It was the recall notice itself which gave that instruction to pull the trigger to the halfcock, not the manuals. That was the test to see if your the particular gun would decock from that position.
Sorry for that.
No worries. Do you have a copy of that handy that you could post, or email to me? I would like to see it.

This is just my opinion but I really don't think they were designed to be carried or put on safety at half-cock. But, someone (many) tried to decock it from half-cock and it wouldn't...
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  #13  
Old 04-06-2010, 06:45 PM
GJH77 GJH77 is offline
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5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't?  
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Default Recall

Here is a website which list recalls by manufacturer, 4th one down.

Firearm Recalls and Safety Warnings- FirearmsID.com

Which manual is that? I did not find (or look )at that one, and it looks like it could be for a DAO with a frame mounted decocker only pistol.
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  #14  
Old 04-06-2010, 07:06 PM
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5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't? 5906 Vs. 659 - 659 has 'half cocked' position, 5906 doesn't?  
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Thanks for the link.

Yes, it is from the frame mounted decocker manual. Here's the cover of the manual.


The DAO manual has only this brief statement about "full rest" on page 11.
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