Group Dissapointment

ColColt · #1 07-02-2010, 04:04 PM

I took my 4506 out for a spin today since it had been a while since I've shot it and along side it was the 4566TSW, a box of WWB 230 gr FMJ, some old CorBon 200 gr HP's and a couple boxes of Federal 185 gr HO's I'd been hoarding.

Both pistols shot all ammo with equal reliability and no problems were encountered with either or the ammo. I was disappointed to find I still can't shoot either as well as my Glocks. I thought I could shoot both with equal aplomb but apparently(at least today) that wasn't the case. The groups today were on average twice the size of the groups I got some weeks back with the G21 and G19. Maybe I just wasn't holding my mouth right or they found out I had the Glocks and figured they'd show me what infidelity would do for me.

These are the groups I got with the two Glocks and I didn't even save the targets I shot today with the two Smith's.

The black target is from the 45 Auto(G21) and the other the 9mm.

Farmer17 · #2 07-02-2010, 05:07 PM

That's pretty good shoot'n, and I don't like Glocks but I shoot them pretty well also. I think the low bore axis helps.... and years of shooting guns with ****** triggers! Much as I like Smith revos, I never cared that much for their autos but I did have an old M-39 that was absolutely beautiful and a pretty good shooter, but other than 1911s and Cz-75s, I really don't have a burning desire for any autos.

Chili Vega · #3 07-02-2010, 05:19 PM

Yep, your infidelity has come back to haunt. Nothing you can do at this point but find a good home for the Smiths. I know taking a couple of jilted guns in off of the street is noble but there is no need to thank me. What can I say, I'm that kind of a guy. Should I send the PM now?

FirebirdV8 · #4 07-02-2010, 05:31 PM

I have noticed that people's groups tend to change with what trigger system you shoot the most. The TDA trigger system is what I am best with and my groups are better with it then the Glock type trigger system. This is why I picked up a SW99 with its safe action trigger system to replicate what I shoot best with.
I have also seen people who mainly shoot a Glock (these are also the ype of people who can't effectively shoot a revolver in DA) or similar trigger system tend to not be able to handle switching to the heavier TDA trigger systems and usually can't master the shorter reset of the S&W trigger. I don't know what you practice on most, but it is something to take into consideration. To make sure I don't fall into this trap I will dry fire my S&W semi autos in double action, since if I can do that pull smoothly, I can do better in the lighter single action mode.
Also, I have noticed your groups look nice, but they tend to be to the left. Since I am at work I don't have my copy of the "wheel" or chart that tells me what this means, but I have seen others post it previously. That maybe something to also take into consideration.
Overall I think, as shooters, we tend to blame our accuracy issues on the guns, and not on skill. My guns are accurate, its me who changes my shooting with how I feel, how stressed I am, when I last ate etc.

tocohillsguy · #5 07-02-2010, 06:54 PM

What was the distance on your group? I don't own any Glocks, but I've noticed that my shooting has improved by shooting my revolvers in DA more often. Even more so, if I shoot the snubs. Last week I shot my P7 at the range for the first time in months, and my groups were quite nice at 10 yards. Those single action triggers can seem easy after the DA revolvers.

ColColt · #6 07-02-2010, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili Vega

Yep, your infidelity has come back to haunt. Nothing you can do at this point but find a good home for the Smiths. I know taking a couple of jilted guns in off of the street is noble but there is no need to thank me. What can I say, I'm that kind of a guy. Should I send the PM now?

Hang it up, Chili. Call me a mental masochist but I just have to be able to take it. I couldn't part with my 4506 if it shot like a 12 gauge...old friends for 20 years. You understand, I'm sure.

Quote:

Also, I have noticed your groups look nice, but they tend to be to the left. Since I am at work I don't have my copy of the "wheel" or chart that tells me what this means, but I have seen others post it previously. That maybe something to also take into consideration.

They seem to go left a bit every time I shoot these two for some reason. The 4506 and 4566TSW are even worse in this respect and I feel confident that's probably me as occasionally I'll get 3-4 right in the dark orange of the other target and suddenly they'll go low and left leaving me to believe it has to be me.

Sometimes I want to go back to a six o'clock hold for some unknown reason. I had wanted to get someone fairly good with a pistol at the range today to try shooting a magazine or two from one of the two I had there today to see if it was me but of all things, the cable had broke on two of the stalls and the range was down for awhile leaving some to just go home. I was left alone with just another guy and his wife so, I abandoned that idea...maybe next time.

Quote:

What was the distance on your group?

The range is 25 yards and I usually shoot between 7-10 yards. Those two targets were probably seven.

stk622 · #7 07-02-2010, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColColt

Hang it up, Chili. Call me a mental masochist but I just have to be able to take it. I couldn't part with my 4506 if it shot like a 12 gauge...old friends for 20 years. You understand, I'm sure.

They seem to go left a bit every time I shoot these two for some reason. The 4506 and 4566TSW are even worse in this respect and I feel confident that's probably me as occasionally I'll get 3-4 right in the dark orange of the other target and suddenly they'll go low and left leaving me to believe it has to be me.

Sometimes I want to go back to a six o'clock hold for some unknown reason. I had wanted to get someone fairly good with a pistol at the range today to try shooting a magazine or two from one of the two I had there today to see if it was me but of all things, the cable had broke on two of the stalls and the range was down for awhile leaving some to just go home. I was left alone with just another guy and his wife so, I abandoned that idea...maybe next time.

The range is 25 yards and I usually shoot between 7-10 yards. Those two targets were probably seven.

"slapping" the trigger....left or low left...

flyandscuba · #8 07-02-2010, 09:05 PM

After all these years, I still do my best shooting with my P7 or P7M8s...

But what really helped me was to take a class with Randy Cain at Southern Exposure Training at least once per year (I vowed to do that if I was going to carry a CCW 24/7). His instruction allowed me to adjust to the various triggers of most of my handguns -- his carbine course is great too.

No matter how long someone has been shooting -- or how good someone feels they are at the range, I think everyone should invest the time and money is periodic formal training.

I highly recommend the courses you'll find on these websites:

MAIN
Southern Exposure Training Facility

biglew0923 · #9 07-05-2010, 10:20 AM

Dang, there are some good shooters in here, maybe I will post my shootin on here one day so you guys can get a good laugh!!

sniper47 · #10 07-05-2010, 11:06 AM

I had the opposite happen to me. I took the glocks, both the same model as yours, along with a couple of 3rd gens and couldn't group the glocks worth a ****. I chalked it up to a bad day shooting glocks and told myself I would give them another chance. Well, I did a few weeks later and while I shot considerably better, it still did not come close to the accuracy I achieved with my Smiths. I sold both glocks a few weeks after that and I won't ever own one again.

SW CQB 45 · #11 07-05-2010, 12:32 PM

so many TDA Smiths hit the used market because no one cares to put any real trigger time behind them.

they are not easy to master, but with training, they are a good system and able to run with any firearm of equal duty.

they are not match target guns, so dont expect one hole groups at 25 yds.

glocks are very easy to shoot, but they are not for everyone because of the wider dbl stack and grip angle.

I recall a buddy buying a new 4516 and shot horribly with it up close. he sold it to another buddy for $200 and it shot really good.

put some time in those trigger systems and you will net equal results.

oldman45 · #12 07-05-2010, 07:15 PM

I own several Glocks, a couple of Colts, a Kimber, a LB and a bucket load of S&W handguns. I can shoot the S&W models better than any. Beyond that, I can shoot my latest S&W 1911 better than any gun I ever owned and even better than I could have shot 40 yrs ago. There is nothing about the gun I do not love.

My problem with any Glock is the angle of the grip. It seems uncomfortable to me but I qualified with one each year for the last 18 yrs. Now I am carrying the S&W 1911 full time.

ColColt · #13 07-05-2010, 07:35 PM

Quote:

They are not match target guns, so dont expect one hole groups at 25 yds.

I'd settle for two inch groups at half that distance. Perhaps one of the problems is I go back and forth from the Glock to the Smith at the same range session and obviously I don't do that very well. One week I'll take a couple Glocks to the range and do well. Next time a couple Smiths and do what I consider fair with those. Take a Glock and a Smith at the same time and I do well with the Glock but not so well with the 4566TSW or 4506. Apparently, I haven't gotten the trigger down on the latter.

I feel confident I'll never shoot anything as well as the 1911 although the Glock is close. I never had much of a problem with the 1911 but again, that's what I started at many moons ago. I just don't trust them 100% for SD like I do a 3rd Gen model. I love them but, they are finicky. I've had maybe seven in years gone by and only two were trustworthy to count on.

I don't have a problem with the Glock grip angel as to me it feels sort of like a lightweight 1911 whereby the Smith feels "top heavy". I've had the 4506 now for 20 years and it's been probably 15 years since I've shot it. I broke it out and took it to the range with me along with my newly acquired 4566TSW and it felt strange...like a new gun. Some pistols you can pick up and do well with them right off-others take some familiarity to get use to them and I feel this may be the case with the aforementioned Smith's.

curioushooter · #14 07-08-2010, 09:20 AM

Top heavy?

I am exactly the opposite. I find Glocks to be annoyingly top heavy (thats the only place they have any metal).

I'd have to say 3rd Gen Smiths have just about perfect feel, better than 1911s, too, especially if you get a Hogue Grip. There is no exposed metal backstrap or grip safety to rock your hand on, either. They are well balanced to me.