Just read an interesting article about who will, if anyone, take over, at some point, from Glock with Police? Most think the S&W M&P will be the likely survivor. Of course Glock has a long way to go to lose the police contracts it now has. Wadda you think?

Glock has been around for many years. However, there has been a great surge from manufactures in the ergonomics and advancements in designs. Many of the Police Departments are gearing toward other manufactures. The M&P had some design defects but has been corrected. There are pros and cons on each manufactured gun. Before you buy, research each gun or if you can rent and shoot that would be even better. As for me, I own and carry a Springfield .40 XD 4 inch for my concealed carry. I practice and practice so the gun is like a glove in my hand and can shoot where I aim. I enhance my skills with advance tactical courses from reputable shooting academies. Each person has his or her's likes on a gun but don't be mislead from relying on someone's word. Remember, for a quality gun, the price will be higher.
Nick

Unless Glock develops some kind of QC problem in the future, I wouldn't bet against the company. The M&P is excellent, but its track record is still about 30 years behind the first Glock. I own both and prefer the grip on the M&P, but if I were reduced to just one polymer-framed pistol, it would be the Glock because of its much longer reliability record.

Glock's recent frame/slide modifications indicate the company is not sitting on its laurels. I hope both companies thrive well into the future.

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Southern Conservative

Glock has had a lot of bad PR lately. The problems with the .40 are legendary, the failures of the Glock 19 with the NYPD are huge. The "redesign" of the grip texture and slide serrations are simply cosmetic. If anything it proves that Glock is resting on it's laurels. Glock is at the top but is falling from grace. Many many departments have switched or are in the process of switching to the M&P pistol. With the latest versions of the M&P it has finally worked out all of the bugs that plagued the early guns. In my opinion the M&P has finally been perfected.

Glock is not going away. They sell at a low price, have great reliabilty, and tons of support. I personally do not like the grip so I do not own a Glock but, I can respect a weapon like Glock produces.

Glock Glock And More Glock LOL

I carry the Glock as a primary for work. It is a good weapon. The grip is different, but once you get used to it, it is no big deal. I love the M&P's and would rather have one to be honest. However, with the Gen. 4 the Glock just introduced, it is a different ballgame (to me anyway). I like the fact Glock has finally put an adjustable back strap on the pistol, very good. I am 6'6" and don't have any problems with the Glock, but the 5'4" female deputy beside me is going to have issues with the grip. I know there are many other features Glock has changed with the gen. 4, but that is the biggest deal for me. Make the gun fit the shooter, not the shooter to fit the gun. Both are very reliable weapons and would carry either for protection.

I think Glock will have the strong hold for now. But a lot of guys who started their careers with a smith wheel gun in their holsters are in charge of T&E and procurement for new equipment, including sidearms. We are seeing more and more agencies switch over to the M&P series, but a lot of agencies just made the switch to glock within the last 5 to 10 years so it's not going to transistion right away. Smith and Glock both have the right idea with no decockers, safties, etc to train with. Less things to teach, better gun to issue. I saw too many people on my range screw up with the sig P series and I think if they had just pushed them into their holsters like a glock instead of having to "work the process" they would've been much better off. I personally witnessed 2 ND's using sig's: one into the railroad ties that made up the protective wall for the target system; and one over the berm off into space and god knows where.

Glock "took over" many years ago. Nobody can beat their department prices and they will trade back to update guns. Money talks at budget time and frequently low bid is gonna win out. A dept can send a box full of bad mags to Glock and receive new mags in return at no cost. They will do whatever it takes to get any other gun out of a dept and get themselves in.

A lot of firearms enthusiasts aren't old enough to remember the slow start Glock had when it was first being imported into the US. Some firearms instructors may have been at it long enough to remember some experiences from the late 80's. (Anybody else have a copy of the FBI report from their FTU about Semiautomatic Pistols dated from 1987-1988?) Glock had their own teething problems in the early years. Glock also failed the DHS testing several years ago, too.

Anyway, the market is Glock's to lose, so to speak, much as it was S&W's to lose when the M39/59's seemed to dominate the LE field when revolvers were being phased out as service weapons.

I suspect we'll continue to see Glock losing market share as the other manufacturers are recognizing, embracing and responding to the civilian LE market's apparent desire for plastic-framed service weapons.

I suspect the newest S&W, Sig & Beretta plastic service pistol designs will start to accelerate the erosion of Glock's position.

Springfield may finally get some momentum going in the civilian LE field, too. They aren't exactly aggressive in this regard, for whatever reason.

HK would do better if they didn't hold their point so high. Sometimes it all comes down to bid/costs.

Some of the other larger companies seem to be focusing on the commercial market instead of the LE/Gov market, at least for the time being (Taurus, Ruger & FN, for example).

Walther seems to have its attention directed toward LE/Gov customers located outside the US, although their 99 series is a good one worthy of attention. Who knows what they have in mind?

These things seem to ebb & flow in cycles, you know.

I wouldn't look for a clear cut "winner" when it comes to future dominance, but more of an ordering of the various big names as the plastic pistol concept continues to make itself known.

Now, if the US military ever shifts away from the metal-framed Beretta, then we might see some scrambling ... (although I'd think we'd see the mainstay of the combat small arms addressed first, meaning the rifle/carbine inventory, which is as it should be considering how long the M16/M4 has been in our inventory). I wouldn't hold my breath for any movement for general military sidearm changes any time soon.

An announcement for new DHS and FBI submissions & testing might stir things up again, too.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

It will all rest on who can influence the politics involved in getting contracts, period.

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Lost it all in a boat accident

I agree with this. All else being equal, money rules. I started out with revolvers, went to the 1911, came to accept DA autos like the SIG and Beretta, but now have come to fully appreciate the Glock and S&W M&P, although I own neither. As I posted today on the sub-forum for the M&P, it's hard to imagine why you need anything else. I'm glad that S&W is producing such a fine weapon.
Chris

Glock has a cult-like following and those who love the Glock tend to worship at Gaston's alter. But the reality is that few of those people are responsible for purchasing handguns for law enforcement agencies. Secondarily I have noticed lately the Glock LE sales people have become S&W LE sales people, Glock LE distributors have become S&W LE distributors, etc., etc., etc. This does not mean that S&W has won the war of the duty gun, but it clearly demonstrates the erosion of Glock's market share. Especially for those of us who remember when Glock did the same thing to S&W and Beretta. Shoes on the other foot now.

Glock's Gen 4 line has been a failure. They have had to redesign the recoil assemblies and have had a lot of PD's return their Gen 4's. I know of a LE distributor who stopped selling the Gen 4's because of so many complaints. Glock confirmed this, per se, when they announced that they will not stop producing the 3rd Gen guns. Clearly in the hopes of not having disappointment turn to trying out a M&P, PX4 or P250. There was a time that there really wasn't a comparable equivalent to Glock, now there are a few and some of them offer better ergonomics and equal reliability. Glock will not go away, but I don't think they will be king of the hill too much longer.

I read that thread too, over at the firingline.

Little by little, the American made Smiths are coming back!

Glock will not go away, but they will lose ground every day (kinda breaks my heart).

Go Smith, Go Ruger, Go America!

Lee

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SD9VE, American perfection!

Westchester County PD here in NY, some 250 strong, just got rid of their Blocks for the M&P.

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Sure you did

Yes!

Lee

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SD9VE, American perfection!

I have shot a Glock and a couple M&P's both functioned and fired fine for me. The only differences I noted, were with the Glock I had to cover the POI with the muzzle, didn't really seem like it was a directed towards the front sight, but my grouping was great. I do like the adjustable backstrap feature of the M&P, but where Glock is doing this now, it really seems a moot point. I am sure Glock stands behind their guns as well, but I have experience exceptional customer service with S&W. These guns are in such high production, that making the decision without going out and getting a feel for them is not warranted. Not like trying to decide between a 3rd Gen and a Glock, where you might have trouble finding a 3rd Gen to handle and test.

I am still no Glock fan, and people that love them have reason to do so, but I am still not a fan of the look. Probably stupid for thinking this way, but I think the gun should be somewhat visually appealing as well, and the Glock just doesn't do it for me.

I know this is a Smith Website so I know what to expect. But, carrying a Service weapon 28 years now, not in an office, not in a specialized unit, on patrol. Would never want to trust anything other than Glock. They just work, no matter how many haters there are, There is no denying they work.

Arrogant statements like that from glock owners are what turn off many people in my opinion. It's not the gun, it's the owners.

I am "very much" pro cop, but I couldn't care less what gun the police use, shoot, like or dislike.

I have @ 40 years experience and I shoot often, very often. Not just 100 or 200 round a year to stay qualified as some do.

I do not deny that glocks work; they do. However, in my lifetime, I've never had a failure from my American made Smiths or Rugers; so yes, I would/do trust my life to something other than a glock.

Again, I think glocks are very good reliable guns for sure, no denying that. I just choose something else for me.

Lee

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SD9VE, American perfection!

Originally Posted by ladder13
Westchester County PD here in NY, some 250 strong, just got rid of their Blocks for the M&P.

Yes!

Lee

You're accusing me of being arrogant. Kinda like the pot and kettle thing, with your above posting, don't ya think.. Again, I know it's a Smith site. Carried a model 10 first 20 years on patrol, trusted my life to it, but now I feel Glock is superior.

Didn't mean to offend sir.

Maybe we have some common ground; the Model 10. It's one of my favorite guns of all time.

Best wishes,

lee

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SD9VE, American perfection!

Ive owned both and shot both for sometime now, the M&P goes Bang every time, just like a Block does. The M&P just shoots better for me and has been more accurate for me as well.

as do other brands....smith&colt both come to mind and date to the 1850's it's not a question of "hating glocks" (i noticed thats a commonality in several of your posts on this forum) but rather the ability to understand that there are any number of perspectives and uses for a sidearm...i do not see glock creating any impressions as far as hunting with a handgun...the military picked the beretta over glocks and they carried colt 1911's for many years prior to that (and that's after extensive testing)..need some horsepower to hunt a 400lb.boar or a bear?a glock would not even enter the conversation...need to mount a scope for longer range application? i don't hear glock coming up again...you see these observations go hand in hand with what i mentioned about one's perspective....and these are but a few that come to mind....you aren't the only police officer on this forum...i did my 30+years and never carried a glock...i was fortunate enough to have worked various assignments aside from and including patrol work which again relates to one's perspective...i'm not knocking glock's but rather pointing out (as other's here have already mentioned)..it's application and perspective...big and small game hunting,target shooting,combat courses,home defense,ccw,collecting firearms in general...there are quite a few very reliable guns that go bang each time....and all of them are not glocks....S&W is the number one seller and for my two cents....there is a reason for that...

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SWCA#2208
KK4EMO

I carried a glock and was qualified on sig's too, but I personally found the glock to be a better service weapon. Cops can be more than a little lost with firearms. The glock had no controls to learn besides the trigger and magazine catch. Lots to be said for the K.I.S.S style of engineering. I think that smith saw that early on when their third gens started losing ground to the glock and tried to counter it with the sigma (not to knock the sigma owners on here, but it didn't take the police world by storm lol). I think this time with the m&p smith stood back, watched and listened to the complaints that the glock was creating and made a weapon that could compete with the glock while being superior to the glock in several respects. They beat glock to the market with interchangable back straps, kept the price point where they would stay competitive, and even offered a thumb saftey for departments who were that big of wusses that they wanted it. I feel it will soon become the service weapon of choice for most LE agencies at the local and state levels simply because it is american made, and can be taylored to both the agencies demands (no matter how stupid they might be) and the individual officer who is carrying it. I know my ex patrol sgt is a fan of them, even without owning one yet, simply because his dad carried a brace of smiths, and then when he started in the LE field he carried a model 19 and model 5906 before the switch to tactical tupperware started up. The M&P is slowly gaining ground on what is still considered by many (possibly a majority?) of cops to be the ultimate in duty/issue weapons. And I feel it will become the "block" of the future within the next 10 years or so.

I've owned a Glock 21, a 23, and a 27. All of em' are gone, replaced by a CS45, 6906, and a 3953. Looking for a 3913, a CS9 and a couple Smith 1911's.
Own Glocks if you want, this is America.......at least for now.

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Sure you did

To all, be happy be safe, no intention to upset anyone. Glock is what I prefer, everyone has their right to own whatever they want, or choose. Never thought I would be one of the last hold-outs with model 10 in NYPD. If I could have chosen to patrol w/o revolver or weapon would have done so. Young and invincible. Now on patrol gun is comforting.
Ladder13, grew up on Ave D and 3rd st, actually born in the building (9 pct) and worked on 135st bet 7&8 ave, in the 32pct, so did wife and Brother-in-law, and his father. Just curous Where is ladder 13?

sarge, were you still on the job in NY in the mid 90's? The Glock 19 was having serious problems. Glock ignored the requests for assistance until the job contacted Ruger for replacement guns. Glock finally took notice since they didn't want to lose their biggest contract (probaby 25,000 NYPD cops carry the 19). They set up at Rodman's Neck, and recalled all the 19's in service. First they blamed the ammo we were using, but the SIG and S&W had no problems with it. Then they recut the ejection port. They ley cops walk the beat for nealy 2 years. And plenty of other dept's have had problems. Westchester PD only has the Glock for 5-6 years. Why would they switch unless there were issues?

I'll never own another Glock. They cared more about their bottom line than they did the lives of cops.

It looks to me like S&W is making a honest run at Glock.

While I am not a huge LEO fan. Many Leo's have been impressed with my M&P .45 at our public hunting lic. required range. That means Game Rangers for the most part. And they always have there I really don't like shooting it Glock strapped on. We do see County LEO's come through and OHP. When they decide to get out of the car and be human some can be very interesting. And none of them like the Glocks or dept. guide line weapons they have to buy themselves or are issued.

Many of them don't practice IMHO near enough. And they admit to it. I've heard some of them mutter. They don't like there service pistol.

Long live M&P and may S&W keep improving the platform and get it into the hands of Leo's that will shoot it.

It brings to mind a police involved shooting in Tulsa a while back. Perp pulled a pistol on a gaggle of Leo's. Cops were every where. There is video of the event that shows some of the cops. They all opened up on the perp and only two bullets hit the guy in a leg. There has been a lot of talk between shooters and the general public as to why the TPD can't seem to hit the side of a barn. And some very embarrassed Leo's in the area.

From what I gather from those that speak. They don't like there sidearms. They don't practice enough with them 1) because they dislike them. 2) they can't afford to shoot them as much as they need to. 3) lazy.

As for a poster that mention hunting. I hate to say it. But I'm thinking of getting a 10mm Glock for pistol hunting whitetail and hog. Sure I could get a .357 or .44 Smith. Pay a 1/3 more or better for pistols that have no flexibility. With the Glock I can go to longer barrels and also change it around for .40 and .45. I can't do that with any current production Smith or past production firearm that I know of.

My father parents lived on the lower East Side aka alphabet City. Lots of eastern Europeons lived there back in the day.

FDNY Ladder 13 on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

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Sure you did

Unless you have been in a real shooting, you don't get to second guess someone else's marksmanship. I shot 100% consistently, but the one shooting I was in (at a charging pitbull), only 2 shots hit the dog (out of 7 fired), and they were lucky. This thread was about Glock vs. M&P. try to keep your obvious bias towards a group of people you know nothing about out of the question.

And maybe a 4th reason why they don't shoot as often as they would like is they are tired and get to see their wife and kids rarely as it is, so spending time on the range might not rank very high on their list of priorities.

This was from LEO's that I have talked and shot with. Once they get real they can be quite nice folks.

The bottom line was many did not like there Glocks, could not afford to practice like they want or didn't practice because they did not like there Glock. Not a one complained of over work or lack a family time. LEO's are not the only ones that work long and hard dangerous jobs.

As for the LEO shooting there was like 17 officers against one perp that never got a shot off in a closed in apt. court yard.

S&W knocked Colt out of the box after WWII as far as police department sales are concerned. It was well earned and they had a good run. Ruger was nipping at Smith's heals by the early '80s though, but before they could really reap the benefits from the strides they made with their marvelous six-series Glock swooped in and stole the market from both with the then perfect Glock 17.

I don't even know that Glock ever had their sites set that high (I may be nieve), but when the whirlwind finally slowed down by the early 2000's they had cornered the vast majority of the GLOBAL police & military markets.

I don't know what's next for Glock, but in my opinion S&W is only still in the race thanks to name recognition from their glory days (no one has ever made a finer revolver) and their savy to acquire someone elses design that's a proven seller. Frankly, I wouldn't own any poly pistol but a Glock, but that's just me. I've shot them for over 15 years, and no Glock 17, 19, or 22 has ever let me down so I have no intention of tempting fate. I trust them like any old S&W or Ruger revovler.

But we all see S&W is making gains in the U.S., and we all know the Springfield Armory folks have made a big splash with their Kroatian designed XD.

Guess the one point I'd like to make is this, history tells us one day Glock will likely feel the same sting that Colt, S&W, and Ruger all felt before them, it's just a question of whether it will be sooner or later. Only time will tell.

Again, if you are ever in a situation that you might got shot BACK, (paper isn't so dangerous, is it?), your marksmanship will go out the window. Tunnel vision, roaring in your ears, ducking for cover, will all throw your shots off. Not such a rare thing only scoring two hits, especially in an open area like a courtyard.

I'm not surprised that they didn't like their Glocks. I hated mine, too. Glock corners the PD market because police administrators choose them based on cost.

And unless you know these guys well, why would they tell you about their personal marriage issues? Try working a midnight and flying home to be there for breakfast or to get the kids on the bus. Range time takes a backseat. I'll bet the cops you do see at the range were mostly young rookies. They LOVE to shoot.

People with an obvious animosity towards cops usually have a reason. My wife has had zero contact with cops (other than me when i was still on the job). Ask her what she feels about cops, and she'll respond with "I never really think about them".

I was an 0311 in the Marine Corps. I have put thousands of rounds in a Beretta 92 or M9. Sooner or later you will have to tap, rack, bang a semi-auto! I don't care if it is a Glock or M&P!! I carry revolvers and carry full moon-clips myself. Look up Glock 1000 round torture test on you-tube. He only gets through 5 magazines before he has to tap-rack-bang!!! Give me a revolver any day, and if you think I am older, no I am 29 years old and love revolvers!