I'm ever slowly becoming disenchanted with a couple of 3rd Generation 45's I have. Today I took the 457 out for a spin along with my Glock 30SF. About thirty rounds into firing the 457 with 230gr FMJ's the last round failed to go into battery completely. I moved the slide back just a bit and saw the cartridge in the chamber and not under the extractor. This is not the first time this has happened with this pistol. In fact nearly every time I've taken it to the range this happens. It also happens with my 4566 TSW about every other time I take it out.

These are pretty new magazines and I have new S&W springs in all magazines. The recoil spring is S&W factory and has had less than 300 rounds with it.

I shot 100 rounds with the Glock and there was no failures of any sort using two different kinds of bullets- 230 gr FMJ and 185 gr Sierra JHP's.There wasn't any failure last time with it either firing 150 rounds of different ammo. The only S&W 45 that has given me reliable service has been the 4506 I've had since 1990. I had hoped the 457 would be as good since I had planned on carrying it since it was the lightest and smallest of three S&W 45's I have. It doesn't look like that's going to happen...most disappointing.

Unfortunately the new S&W is not the old S&W. It seems they aren't as reliable as the ones of past days.

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20 years Mil, 18 yrs Sac P.D.

How new is the 457? How many rounds through them? What ammo? Don't want to offend but what hold are you using, are you sure you are not limp wristing? You would have to be extremely unlucky to get two 3rd gens with issues. If they were mine I would clean and lube them and run about 200 rounds through each of them and see if they don't smooth out.

I bought this pistol a few months back and it's had, as of today about 400 rounds. It's had a sundry of ammo through it since I've had it-every thing from 230 gr FMJ and FMJ-FN to JHP's in two weights, 185 gr and 200 gr along with no less than two boxes(100) of 230 gr Ranger T. Of all bullets to cause problems, the 230gr FMJ which should have been the least likely to cause trouble.

No limp wristing. I use a modified Weaver stance/grip with the right arm held straight out and the left one only slightly bent at the elbow. It's always worked for all other pistols and as mentioned, the Glock gave no trouble with these same loads and stance.

The 457 was cleaned and lubed the last time I went to the range with it...about 3-4 weeks back. If it's not broke in by 400 rounds, it never will be. My 4506 always was reliable from day one. I bought it new 20 years ago and it's never failed regardless the type of ammo or stance. There has to be a simple reason for this but, I just can't put my finger on the problem.

Call Smith Customer Service and have them make it right for you. They have a lifetime warranty. As you have seen on your 4506 they normally right without issue at all.
Let them take care of you...you will not regret it.
Randy

I'm with growr, check with S&W. I bought my 457 used, but it was in great condition and it has never burped on me. Given that most of us consider the 3Gs to be top end, I'd be curious as to what was happen; especially given it is happening on two of them.

I certainly sympathise with your problems. I have a fair share of 3Gs in my collection and I love them. And, I carry them regularly, as do other folks. So, please keep us in the loop on what you find.

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NRA Lifer Since 1971

I have been working through similar issues with my 4516-1 which is very similar to your 457. I think I have narrowed the problem down to a rough chamber, hood and feed ramp. I have polished it and it seems to have fixed the problem. Here is a picture of what my chamber looked like. There was also a good size burr on the hood.

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AL
Pax Per Potens

Failure to feed and sticking under the extractor could be

weak spring recoil
burr(s) on the boltface, or feed ramp
rough chamber, boltface and or feed ramp
magazine, magazine spring, or follower
misshaped, frozen, or misaligned extractor

There has to be something that's keeping the round from seating and the slide from continuing forward into battery.

My extensive experience with 3rd gen. pistols has shown they are phenomenally reliable right out of the box. So I'd first send it back to S&W and have them look at it. If still not satisfied I'd send it to Novak's for a reliability check and tune-up.

There has to be a problem somewhere and it's very odd that this is happening to more than one gun.

/c

This happening with some frequency with 2 different model S&W 3rd gen .45's?

This starts to push the bounds of coincidence a bit, don't you think?

I mean, I've picked up not only my own issued or personally-owned 3rd gen .45's, but many other issued models, and only had a very few of them exhibit feeding issues that were related to the guns in some manner (and which were all resolved by parts replacement). Having someone with 2 out of 2 3rd gen .45's with feeding problems is something I'd consider a bit weird and unlikely, although not impossible, but that's just a personal opinion based on my own experience (and I'm only one person ).

It also makes me think that the common factors between the 2 guns exhibiting the "problems" would potentially seem to be the shooter and/or the ammunition.

Tell me it's not handloaded ammunition being used ...

If so, I'd run the guns with one or another good quality factory ammunition made by one of the major American ammo companies before I necessarily started to attribute blame to the guns.

Granted, I used to be a handloading enthusiast for many years, but I've also had the unfortunate experience of observing many, many feeding & functioning problems occur on ranges where folks were using hand-loaded ammunition in defensive pistols ... or the use of unknown brand "gun show bargain" ammunition or some factory ammunition made to seemingly less consistent quality standards or reduced power levels. Virtually all of them involved exclamations by the owner shooters of how they'd never had such a problem before, or at least not very often.

Maintenance and/or shooter grip technique can also have an influence. BTW, it is possible to see someone exhibit a grip stability/unlocked wrist issue (what some folks like to call limp-wristing, even when shooting from a Weaver stance). I see it done by folks often enough. Even involving the occasional young and large, strong man. It often only requires a momentary instant of distraction or relaxation the grip, or allowing the wrist to flex instead of remaining locked.

If this were something consistently happening at the end of a magazine load, and several magazine loads into the range session, I'd almost be inclined to wonder if the shooter were sometimes becoming distracted or tired by the time he/she reached the end of the magazine load, or that point in their session, albeit without realizing it.

The potential maintenance issue influence can include insufficient or improperly applied lubrication.

For one thing, S&W .45's have a couple of sets of frame rails. The main/longer ones and the ones in the dustcover (which are more pronounced in the TSW frames). This is different than the shorter sets of 3 frame rails seen in the 9 & .40 models.

Glocks don't have the same large & long surface area of frame rails found in S&W .45's, ( or 1911's, or Sig's, etc, for that matter), but have very small frame rail tabs which run in the slide rails. Not a lot of surface area to rub against the slide rails. That's what helps them be able to run well with just a drop of lubrication applied to the tabs, or within the slide rails (in addition to the generous tolerances compared to other makes/models which have greater amounts of frame rail/slide rail contact, and which might be tighter when it comes to tolerances).

I've seen a number folks experience occasional "feeding problems" when shooting S&W 3rd gen pistols. When you're working with afew hundred people that isn't unexepcted. The trick is discover why it's happening.

While a mechanical issue can sometimes arise, especially in older guns, the significant amount of the problems I get to see are usually caused in some manner by the shooter (includes user maintenance practices as well as grip technique), followed by some ammunition issues.

Insufficient lubrication, whether the guns are clean or dirty, seems to happen more than you might expect ... but they're usually easily resolved by a quick trip to the cleaning station and some appropriately applied lubrication.

The times when a gun has been excessively lubricated, and the excess lubricant has migrated when not intended to go and has accumulated enough fouling, debris and whatnot to cause functioning problems, requires an armorer detail disassembly & cleaning. That's another problem, though.

I usually tell folks using 3rd gen .45's to lubricate them like they do 1911's or Sig's. Seeing someone apply a very carefully controlled and very spare drop to each frame rail usually seems to coincide with a lot of the folks who experience feeding problems with insufficiently lubricate, or rather dry guns, whether clean or dirty.

The frame rails ought to be wet enough to spread the lubrication along the whole contact surface, so you can see it and feel it, on the top as well as the sides of the frame rails, and on the front (dustcover) set of rails, too. This doesn't mean it has to be excessively applied, or should run off and drip into a puddle, but just enough to cover the friction surfaces.

A bit rubbed around the guide rod.

Around the barrel, especially at the muzzle.

A small drop on each side of the hammer where it moves and rubs within the frame. (Not too much so that it will run off the hammer under gravity and go elsewhere in the frame.)

A drop or two on the top/front of the barrel hood, where it meets the front of the slide's ejection port. This allows it to seep into the "junction" of the barrel hood & ejection port, and decrease friction when the slide unlocks and then returns to battery and locks. See those rub marks on top of the barrel hood? Think about gun getting hot from a few fast mag loads, and the potential for increased friction when the slide and barrel are trying to go finish going into battery.

I've seen an unfortunate number of instances where users disassembled the magazines for cleaning and either "lubricated" the magazines (which should be clean but dry), or else they assembled the magazines improperly. This has unfortunately often included installing the mag spring in the wrong orientation, which can happen if the mag catch plate slips off the bottom coil and the folks don't remember which end is which in the springs which can only be installed in one way.

Just a few weeks ago I even saw someone who had the WRONG mag spring in one of their duty mags, and apparently either didn't recognize it or didn't think it was unusual. Seeing how many of the folks like to spread the parts of their different model/caliber S&W pistols on the table at a cleaning station, often allowing the parts from different guns to mingle, it makes me wonder who the other person might be who has the wrong spring in one of their mags?

Granted, it always possible the wrong spring ended up int he mag when it was assembled at the factory (since I've seen a number of new factory mags with the springs installed upside down in .45's).

Naturally, not being there to see your gun and ammunition, and how you shoot it, I can't presume to know what's happening with your .45's.

It's still possible that there might be a mechanical issue work in each gun (although it would be an interesting coincidence to have this be the cause in both guns owned by the same person at the same time), and it would certainly be appropriate to call S&W and discuss it with them (if you can reach a technician, getting past the folks answering the CS phones).

I've seen one or two slide stop lever assemblies that seemed to have rough machining on the pins, on which the barrel rides going back into battery, and which holds the slide & barrel on the frame. I came across one which seemed to have an oblong shaped pin, but I've been told that's something they'd virtually never expect to see happen (and they'd really like get it back at the factory and examine it if I ever find one again, since I tossed that one in the trash after replacing it).

Slightly out-of-spec chamber or barrel? Sure, it might happen. It can be checked easily enough by the techs by eye and with their laser measurement equipment back at the factory. I've even seen an occasional "tight" chamber on a few 3rd gen guns, but they weren't produced in the last several years (after they made some changes in their barrel manufacturing, I'm told).

Maybe a tight barrel tab? Yeah, I've had that happen, but not many times ... and again, with older 3rd gen .45's and that was with a couple of CS45's, not 4513TSW's, 457's or 4566/4566TSW's.

Tightly fit extractors or a too heavy of the extractor spring tension problem in both guns? Again, not impossible, and something easily enough checked with the right tools.

These are some things that would be checked by an armorer or a technician, and there are other things that could be checked, as well.

But it might be reasonable to try and eliminate the common influences shared between the 2 guns, meaning the factors introduced by the shooter and the ammunition being used.

Just some thoughts.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

My chmber was pretty smooth when I got it but, I used a dremel tool with a drum looking soft attachment and put some J-B compound on it and it's glass smooth as is the feed ramp. My slide stop lever is a different story but the tool marks on it that run the length of it shouldn't much matter as long as the center notch is smooth for the guide plunger to ride on and it is...polished that too early on.

It's not sticking under the extractor hook, Chuck-it didn't make it under the extractor. It was pushed forward into the chamber without being caught by the extractor.


These pistols are very reliable as my 4506 and 6906 can attest but the 457 and 4566 seem to have a little problem and it's in the same area- FTRTB. I think if I could fix one the other would get the same treatment. It is indeed odd for a similar problem to occur with two different model 45's. One is an alloy frame and the other all steel.

fb-That's quite a lot to take in. Originally, I had received two new magazines of which the spring was installed backwards and due to a previous post you showed some pics of what it was suppose to look like so, I disassembled and reinstalled correctly.

I don't know if the slide stop has much to do with this but the machining on the rod that goes through both sides is terrible(notice the photo) the notch in the center is smooth, however. The little tab that extends into the frame and triggers the slide to lock back seems to be a bit long to me and may also be rubbing the bullet ogive. I guess you'd say the 230 gr has a "chunky" ogive and with that, it could possible be al problem as well. If the cartridge moves forward a bit as you're shooting and say it's the last one in the magazine, it could move forward enough to rub against the tab on the slide stop. Again, not sure if that's the problem.

With the magazine being basically new as is the spring and the recoil spring has less than 500 rounds, I don't think either of these is the problem area.

All in all, I think the shooter is fine and the same ammo was shot with the Glock today and in times past at the range it's been used. While these two are not perfect each and every time, I just don't know without grasping for straws, where I'm at with this. If it were me, it seems there would have been problems with the Glock 30 and the 4506 as well. both have had the same ammo with "nary" a hitch. What's your feelings on the slide release? Tool marks causing a problem or the extended tab or it's angle?

Might I ad that the slide stop pin is the devil to get out. I have to take the end of a wooden dowel or anything hard plastic to shove it out.

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This can sometimes fool you. I've been told that high speed imaging at the factory has demonstrated how a tight extractor, or heavy extractor spring (or both) can often cause the case rim to bounce down and away from under the extractor, which might give someone the impression that the case never reached the extractor ... when in fact it did.

I learned this when discussing diagnosing potential feeding issues with someone in pistol repair at the factory one time. This was one of many things they took into consideration when examining pistols sent in for "feeding problems".

BTW, I did have a 4513TSW one time that was experiencing a repeated feeding problem. It was only a couple of years old. I discovered one of the mag springs had been installed backwards, but that didn't resolve all the feeding issues. The recoil spring set was a somewhat shorter than a new set, but replacing them didn't completely resolve the problem, either.

Neither did adding some needed lubrication (insufficiently lubed, but not dry). Still a couple of feeding stoppages.

The next thing I tried was checking extractor for fit and spring tension using the appropriate gauges. While the extractor appeared reasonably clean enough, I found that it required some unexpected effort to insert one of the gauges (flag gauge) all the way between the extractor and the breech face under it, as well as the other gauge between the hook and the opposite breech face shoulder (even though it cleared the bottom of the hook and partway up the hook as it should, indicating it wasn't too tight). When I checked the fit with those tools a lot of hard carbon fouling was removed from the breech face and from under the extractor hook. The gauges were now easier to insert. The extractor fit & tension was well within normal spec ... except now the gun ran as it was supposed to run without any feeding problems, in both my hands and the user's hands (issued weapon). We couldn't get the gun to fail to feed, and I even relaxed my grip and wrist lock when test-firing it for several mag loads.

Was it just one of those things I observed and addressed, or all of them to some degree, contributing their influences to the number of feeding stoppages (since the frequency of feeding problems decreased a bit as I addressed each thing to some extent)? Which was the possible "major cause"? A subtle combination of all of them? That's where I put my best guess ... but the important thing is that gun ran right and exhibited the expected excellent feeding & functioning when I was done, and we couldn't make the gun fail to feed.

That hardened carbon fouling was very difficult to see under the hook. I keep a brass tool with a narrow square edge (I can keep square with a file) to clean out the carbon in places like that nowadays. I don't like using steel "dental picks" against steel gun surfaces, FWIW. I was lucky when I used the extractor gauges because they were designed to move along the surfaces when the parts were fit in the right spec (the GO condition) without damaging them, although the flag gauge is no longer used or sold to armorers. I was told the extractors are being produced so that the dimension checked by the flag gauge is no longer a problem to concern armorers.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

If I test the extractor by putting a 230 gr FMJ round under the extractor, what angle should it be...slightly down or straight ahead?

The slide stop lever tab is supposed to be long enough to reach out into the follower's cutout. A little bit of brass rubbed onto the tab isn't a problem, but if the slide stop is nudged up by contact between the bullet and the lever's tab, then it's something to examine.

S&W 3rd gen pivoting extractors can't be checked for fit in the same manner as a 1911 (meaning slipping a 230gr dummy round under the hook to see if it is dislodged by gentle shaking). That's probably why one technique is taught in the Colt armorer class and the S&WE 3rd gen class involves the use of tools/gauges to fit and check the extractor and its spring tension. The tools are used for a GO/No-Go check (bar gauge and the older flag gauge) and for checking that the spring falls within a recommended tension range (5-6 1/2 lbs on the force dial gauge for .45's).

In older .45's (645 and early 4506-ish?) there were some extractors that also had an adjustment pad on the tail for fitting the extractor. I've never run into one, myself, but we were told about them in my first armorer class.

The slide stop pin notch is for the guide rod plunger. The barrel's bottom lug surface catches against the pin's shaft to hold the slide & barrel on the frame when they're forward in battery. A tech or an armorer might simply replace a slide stop lever assembly if it exhibits a lot of unusual wear or has an unusual, noticeable "high spot" which might be causing some issue when the barrel's bottom surface is running forward against it. Dunno. Have to handle and examine the gun(s).

I've corrected a couple of feeding/functioning issues by replacing slide stop lever assemblies in new production 4566TSW's, though.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

3rd generation S&W auto pistols are now 30 years into use. Just how far back, in your mind, do we need to go in order to find reliable S&W's? The 3rd generation guns are as fine a pistol as has ever been manufactured. I'm not going to let one reported problem (undiagnosed) influence my perception.

Out
West

Hrm~too bad about the troubles you're having,I've had my 4506-1 about a half year and have maybe 200 rounds through it,but like your 4506 I think it'll eat anything!

One thing to take note of:I've heard from all over that the .45 doesn't take well to a miniaturized pistol they ALL have problems of one sort or another.

The Glock though.....those things seem to always work

Well, as an owner of 3 Glocks, and as an armorer for Glock, I tend to agree they're a fine product.

I do, however, tend to like them best when chambered in 9mm.

As an armorer I've also had my fair share of opportunity to encounter Glocks which required repair/correction to either the gun ... or the shooter.

I need to replenish my supply of Glock wearable and repair parts, come to think of it ...

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

As a Glock armorer I can assure you they don't always work, especially in .40S&W. My Smith & Wesson 3rd gens however have always been 100%. That being said, all mechanical devices fail at some point and all gun manufacturers produce a lemon now and again.

I've heard the .40 cal Glocks have some bad habits,I do know the .45 I had always seemed to do what it was supposed to do (fire) and other then the mag wearing out and popping shells out the ejection port during reloads it was a good serviceable pistol.

I have a new 33 in .357 Sig so here's hoping it has the same habits as the others I've had!

If I remember correctly, the 457 has a different spring set up due to the compact size. S&W used a double spring to help with problems with the short barrell length. With that being said, I know my 457 liked hotter loads. It ran flawless with +P ammo, but as with you, it didn't like some weaker loads, especially handloads. You might try a different spring setup and see if it helps any.

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God, country, family.

I'd take either of my 4506's over a friggin glock anyday of the week, they have been flawless and will be shooting long after said glock will be dead.

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Sie vis pacem parabellum

Don't mean to hijack, noob here, where can I find info on the 'generations" of semi's?

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Marty 4513TSW 13-1 642 60-10

I was using 8.4 gr of HS-6 and the Hornady 230 gr FMJ bullet when this malfunction happened. The brass(Starline) was brand new so, no nicks from the extractor/ejector, cases were chamfered inside and outside and I don't feel I could blame the reloads. I do have the two spring set up and was using a straight from the factory springs for the 457. The velocity of that reload mimics factory hard ball so, there shouldn't have been any problem. I don't know if you could get somewhat more strong springs than what S&W offers for the 457.

Martya

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Dave

I would actually go down in strength some, not up.

__________________
God, country, family.

I've got the exact opposite problem: my 4566 eats any factory or reload round I put in it, and the Glock balks with reloads. Go figure. I suspect some out of spec (extractor cut) cases may be my issue.

Maybe we should swap for a spell(southern for "awhile"). Tod date the only 45's I've had in years that never have given a minute's trouble have been the 4506 and the Glock 30SF.

If I can't get this problem resolved it's going to be sold in the near future. I can't carry a pistol that's not 100% reliable and that's what I bought it for. If it's a "me" situation perhaps someone else will have better luck with it.

Is the failure always on the last round in the mag? The mag's from the 4516 have these projections to hold the cartridge in place under the limited (last round)spring pressure. These may prevent the round from moving forward during the recoil cycle.I don't know if it's relevant to your problem but my 6906 and 5946 did not have these.

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It did this time but, once before I think it was mid way during the firing...maybe the fourth one down...can't recall for sure. The mag followers for the 457 have one indent close to the back(like the 4506) but not two as shown in the 4516 pics. The followers are new as well and have had only maybe 100 round usage.

I had this problem with a new 4566TSW. It is too bad SmithCrazy hasn't seen this post. He solved my problem.

He said that S&W has shipped many magazines with the spring upside down and included a picture of a properly assembled magazine with spring looked like. I found three of four new magazines with the spring installed upside down.

A search should turn up his explaination and his picture.

This is the link for when I first had this problem a few months back.

Range Time Disappointment

The mag springs are inserted correctly and the problem still exists.

I agree with the others that said to call S&W. I have several 3rd gens and I've only had one 3rd gen that has ever had a failure, and that was a broken trigger transfer bar, which was an easy enough fix. If your problem persists with other ammo, get it checked out.

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J.D. Roy

S&W has the best warranty in the business. Call them up, they'll email you shipping label, and Fed Ex will even come to your house to pick it up. They'll tear the whole gun down and identify the problem, and have it back to you within 2 weeks. All on their dime. Why tinker yourself when the experts will for you?

Why do so many stories about problems with "XYZ" pistol always include, "And I also brought my Glock which was nothing short of perfect?" Can't help but think stories like such are nothing more than Glock advertisements.

I give accolades when/where they're due. The Glock did well but, it's no better in the reliability area than my 4506, which I also made mention of in the same context. No advertising-just fact.

1990 S&W 4506 5000k + rounds
2007 S&W 4513TSW 200 rounds
1998 Glock 21 3rd Gen 3500 rounds

I've only had one malfunction occur with my gen 3's. It was many years ago. I suffered a bent firing pin after shooting a bag of reloads.
The Glock has never malfunctioned.
Although I witnessed 12 (yes twelve) Glock 19's all break down at exactly 2500 rounds during a class. We tried the two remaining guns in the batch( consecutive serial #'s), those broke down too. The problem was a poorly designed slide lock spring. Glock was well aware of it too.

I have glocks that are over 20 years old with minimal repairs.

I would guess that which ever gun has more available spare parts will work the longest. Since there are more glocks, I bet a glock will be easier to repair.

However, a standard 1911 probably could be kept running indefinitely...

If the feeding problems continued to occur with factory ammunition being used, I'd call S&W after the Holiday break.

As a former handloading enthusiast I can certainly understand someone defending their hobby and handloads, but if the problem occurs with handloads and doesn't occur with good quality factory ammunition, it can seem to indicate a probable cause other than the guns themselves.

Glocks have somewhat looser tolerances. (Although as a Glock armorer I wouldn't recommend the use of anything other than good quality factory ammunition be used in them, either. )

I have encountered some older 3rd gen barrels where a caliber appropriate finishing reamer, carefully and properly applied, removed what seemed to be some high, tight spots in chambers. This was demonstrated to me by a much more experienced S&W armorer when I was a new armorer, but it wasn't something taught in the class. As with any cutting tool, though (or a Dremel), it's really easy to remove too much metal, or metal from the wrong place, and ruin a part (and barrels are among the more expensive parts). Best to let the factory look at a suspected gun problem.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

I had extrator and ejector/recoil spring problems with a 4516 I used to own. I sent it back to the factory and they replaced the extractor and ejector. It wasn't right until I replaced the recoil spring. I sold that gun shortly after and have stuck with my 645 and SW99 45 since.

I have been for the last 13 years been owning and shooting Glock Pistols with absolutely no Malfunctions at all and I have also been owning and shooting S&W Revolvers with absolutely no problems at all in all these years. I stick with the Glocks for my semi autos and the S&W's for my revolvers and this has given me a trouble free shooting experience. This is only my experience but it has worked for me! //END//

I've found that some generic ammo, like WWB, is often underpowered for use in a compact .45. It doesn't send the slide fully rearward, which doesn't allow the recoil spring to reach full potential for chambering the next cartridge.

Glocks are ugly, uncouth, unsafe, and ruined defensive pistol shooting.

They are the blockheaded trolls of hand weaponry bereft of beauty or grace.

I rue the day they invaded our shores.

/c

I agree ,I saw my first glock in 1986 and the first thing I said was damn it sure is ugly.Give me a model 39 or 59 or a Browning hp or even a 1911.

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The Lord cometh and right soon

Oh, FYI, I'm shooting one now, a 19. But, I still don't like 'em.

/c

(tongue in cheek statement to follow). Pretty fancy words for a moron. Did you copy those from a book and replace a couple words? The trigger saftey issues of Glocks give me the heeby jeebies, talk about carrying "cocked and unlocked". Other then that Glocks are possibly the biggest inovation in handguns to come along in the last 50 years. I don't care for them personally but that doesn't mean I don't respect them.

As for your S&W 45 feeding issue. There's no way to fix this in a forum by now. Send them in, with the mags, and let Smith and Wesson figure it out once and for all.

I don't respect Glock's at all for a lot of reasons either. That doesn't make me a moron.

And as far as innovation goes, most of us recognize that polymer frames can be OK, striker fire systems can be effective, and we aren't just gen 3 "fan boys" (boy I hate that phrase!) or Luddites just because we don't like Glocks .

The Walther PPS is a great gun that is polymer/striker, and the M&P beats a Glock hands down for ergonomics.

Give me an FNP or FNX, or an H&K if it's going to be a polymer framed gun, and I'd be very happy. Not a Glock.

For really great, all around fine guns though, it's very hard to beat a 3rd generation S&W or a Sig, with a metal frame.